Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Beauty and the Boost - Pheromosa is now banned

[Kshuaib734]

Lets ask ourselves the real question here- is game more enjoyable without phero in the tier?

From a week playing the suspect test, I can honestly say no- it doesn't make much of a difference at all. I've never been swept by a phero in the past and the metagame doesn't feel very different without it at all.

Phero's beast boost only boosts its speed, which is useless considering its already the fastest pokemon in the tier. Its base attacking stats are only 137 each, which isn't game breaking at all.

Sure, if it takes ice beam then can deal with lots of threats, but then it has no strong fighting type STAB to use.

I play around the 1300-1400 elo in OU, so sorry if I'm too sh*t of a player for my opinions to count.

 

[Night Train Lane]

Lets ask ourselves the real question here- is game more enjoyable without phero in the tier?

irrelevant. The question is it broken or unhealthy. Which it is.

From a week playing the suspect test, I can honestly say no- it doesn't make much of a difference at all. I've never been swept by a phero in the past and the metagame doesn't feel very different without it at all.

many things change. Toxapex offense isn't as much a thing, Metagross doesn't need Bullet Punch as much, scarf gar isn't as valuable, etc etc

Phero's beast boost only boosts its speed, which is useless considering its already the fastest pokemon in the tier. Its base attacking stats are only 137 each, which isn't game breaking at all.

Not true. Depending it's nature it can choose to boost attack, speed, or special attack.

Example. 252 attack EVs, 252 speed EVs with an Adamant nature will boost attack after a kill.

137/137 is high asf so like....

Sure, if it takes ice beam then can deal with lots of threats, but then it has no strong fighting type STAB to use.

I play around the 1300-1400 elo in OU, so sorry if I'm too sh*t of a player for my opinions to count.

wtf are you talking about here? I don't feel I should explain this but it always runs Bug / Fighting / Ice coverage, unless it's the Normalium Z set.

Your ladder rating has nothing to do with the misinformation.

 

[DeltaRott]

Lets ask ourselves the real question here- is game more enjoyable without phero in the tier?

From a week playing the suspect test, I can honestly say no- it doesn't make much of a difference at all. I've never been swept by a phero in the past and the metagame doesn't feel very different without it at all.

Phero's beast boost only boosts its speed, which is useless considering its already the fastest pokemon in the tier. Its base attacking stats are only 137 each, which isn't game breaking at all.

Sure, if it takes ice beam then can deal with lots of threats, but then it has no strong fighting type STAB to use.

I play around the 1300-1400 elo in OU, so sorry if I'm too sh*t of a player for my opinions to count.

Hey there man, don't worry about your elo in particular. Many great players on this site don't even ladder other than for suspect tests; they just play in tournaments. Anyways, it's really more about the knowledge that you bring to the table - and tbh while I don't consider myself the most educated of posters here either, it's always nice to post your opinions so that other members of the community have the chance to comment on your feedback.

The issue isn't really about if the game is more fun with Pheromosa in the tier, but if it is a healthier meta to play in. Personally, I subscribe to the notion that eliminating Pheromosa from the metagame will allow the meta to breathe and perhaps diversify. As it stands now, I feel as if Phero's basically wrapped its long legs around the tier in a chokehold. It forces the same consistent answers on a team, even creating Toxapex offense as a playstyle strictly because Pheromosa can blow straight through offense. And even then, Normalium can defeat it with ease, meaning that Pheromosa wins anyways.

 

[Gary]

Lets ask ourselves the real question here- is game more enjoyable without phero in the tier?

From a week playing the suspect test, I can honestly say no- it doesn't make much of a difference at all. I've never been swept by a phero in the past and the metagame doesn't feel very different without it at all.

Phero's beast boost only boosts its speed, which is useless considering its already the fastest pokemon in the tier. Its base attacking stats are only 137 each, which isn't game breaking at all.

Sure, if it takes ice beam then can deal with lots of threats, but then it has no strong fighting type STAB to use.

I play around the 1300-1400 elo in OU, so sorry if I'm too sh*t of a player for my opinions to count.

Regardless of whether or not you think 1300-1400 is shit or not, it's pretty hard to take your opinion seriously when you don't even realize that you can EV Pheromosa differently so Beast Boost doesn't boost speed. That means you haven't played against or with some of the best Pheromosa sets in the tier, aka Specs, Quiver, and Scarf because all of those sets most of the time use a positive boosting nature in Attack/Special Attack respectively with varying EVs, all of which don't get a Speed boost. The whole "I never lost to it, therefore it's not broken" argument is never solid in anyway, especially when you mentioned you play people around the lower part of the ladder which probably don't even use Pheromosa properly. Not calling you "shit" but I'm just saying, it makes a pretty big difference.

 

[Dakress]

From a week playing the suspect test, I can honestly say no- it doesn't make much of a difference at all. I've never been swept by a phero in the past and the metagame doesn't feel very different without it at all.

Serperior is more or less everywhere on the ladder, specially around the 1200-1300, Weavile is a legitimate threat and legit OU material in a world without Phero (which also happens to be faster than a normal Greninja), M-Bee's not outclassed anymore and I saw a Gliscor once. On the old ladder those 4 would be either super risky to use, unviable or just plain outclassed, so I say that Pheromosa's absence is actually pretty healthy if you go for the "it's ban promotes more variety" kind of argument.

 

[Night Train Lane]

To expand (kinda) upon what was said above, so much changes with Pheromosa gone.

• Serp is more viable [it could never sweep with mosa alive]
• Slowbro is a tad more viable [still has a hard time with Greninja being around.]
• scarf gar isn't as valuable to teams [one of the best offensive checks]
• Toxapex offense is much less relevant [yeh]
• Rain has a much easier time [scarf outspeeds all rain sweepers]
• Tornadus is more viable and much more [still has problems with Gren being around]
• Most important tho is that Metagross and Greninja lost a very huge check.

Theres many more and despite the metagame still being iffy imo the changes this creates is .... BIGLY

EDIT: since it seems people are putting there own idea of what I meant when I said Gren and Meta lose a check, I'll clarify. THEY LOSE A CHECK. Much like many other mons. I am not using this statement as a ban or anti ban argument, I'm just simply stating what happened when Mosa was removed from the tier. If you believe this is me saying "don't ban Mosa cause Gren and Meta will be more broken!" This is not the case.

 

[Vengeance417]

• Most important tho is that Metagross and Greninja lost a very huge check.

Theorymoning about a future metagame like this shouldn't be considered a viable argument regarding a suspected Pokemon. If Pheromosa gets banned, then we'll see where OU goes with Megagross and Greninja. However, as it stands right now, Pheromosa still limits teambuilding way more than the other Pokemon in OU at the moment.

 

[Night Train Lane]

Theorymoning about a future metagame like this shouldn't be considered a viable argument regarding a suspected Pokemon. If Pheromosa gets banned, then we'll see where OU goes with Megagross and Greninja. However, as it stands right now, Pheromosa still limits teambuilding way more than the other Pokemon in OU at the moment.

How is this theorymonning? I'm stating what's changed in the metagame. Greninja and Metagross lose a check with Pheromosa gone. Explain to me how this is wrong. If you've read my posts you know I'm very pro ban. Nor am I suggesting this is an anti-ban argument, it's a simple statement of facts.

 

[ian smart]

Theorymoning about a future metagame like this shouldn't be considered a viable argument regarding a suspected Pokemon. If Pheromosa gets banned, then we'll see where OU goes with Megagross and Greninja. However, as it stands right now, Pheromosa still limits teambuilding way more than the other Pokemon in OU at the moment.

umm... the suspect ladder has pheromosa banned, so we already know some of the effects phero getting banned has. that's the whole reason why we have it banned on the suspect ladder

as for my thoughts on phero being suspected, i think most of us agree that phero should get banned. I could just restate what the council already said better but im not going to. lol

 

[Jojobobo]

Theorymoning about a future metagame like this shouldn't be considered a viable argument regarding a suspected Pokemon. If Pheromosa gets banned, then we'll see where OU goes with Megagross and Greninja. However, as it stands right now, Pheromosa still limits teambuilding way more than the other Pokemon in OU at the moment.

To add to what others have said, I think the apparent health of the suspect ladder is a strong argument for whether or not to ban a pokemon. It's not remotely theorymonning.

From what I've seen, it looks healthier and more varied. Yes Greninja and Metagross are everywhere, but I think there's still a lot more variability than the ladder in which Phero was present.

 

[BM]

Well. This is disgusting. The amount of people that just want to get rid of something because they cant find solutions to it is funny.
1st off Lets rundown this mon shall we. Ill guess well do it off smogon because my personal sets wont make or break a case.

Pheromosa (in meta):
Pheromosa in meta was doable because prioritys got rid of her and you had to offensively pivot to keep her in check (just like any late game sweeper)
-Run Quiver+3SpA+Z-Move(Which are broken anyway)Usually run Modest or Naughty for mixed sets.
-Respectable movepool Stabs such as High Jump Kick and Focus Blas(one of which having a lower accuracy while the other has drop back if it misses)are great offensively and offer a great range of coverage for any Pokemon in the Tier
-Stats are Flexable with Base Speed. You can drop about 16evs and be the fastest poke on the field(not including scarf or megas)
-Lack of priority makes Pheromosa a target by mons suck as Banded Dragonite, Megagross,Scizor-M,Mawile-M,Mimikyu,taking prior damage Ashgreninja can water shuriken Pheromosa to death.
-Psychic Terrain boosts Pheromosas threat and increases sweeping capability.
-Mixed sets provide a somewhat a liability because of more coverage in one area and lack of coverage in another. But do provide good wallbreaking
How to deal with this offensive "Monster"
-Banded Priority
-Resisting Stab
-Wearing down through rocks
-Forcing a lock into a favorable low accuracy move.
-Self Inflicted Damage
-Scarf revenge killing
-Buzzwole
-Kartana
Suspect Test Meta:
Not enjoyable. I dont enjoy the Megagross,Scarf Lele,Protean Greninjas that are flooding the seen with Mega-Zam in tow.
What became a meta that wasnt heavily populated with Pheromosa to begin with is now heavily populated with scarf Serperiors(Sweeping sets using Leaf Storm) Heavier Megagross use. More Greninja. More tanks that seem to be harder to break without Pheromosa there.

I do agree Pheromosa is a strong unit. But it takes a strong unit to take down other ones. With Pheromosa gone we see less checks to slow tanks that rely on being normal typing to wall your offense. Theres even more Megagross and More Lele and More Greninja that there seems to be at least one on every team.
There doesn't seem to be anymore team creativity to what was going on before except adding more mons that were checked by phero back jnto the light and back into sweeping potential.
I dont knkw if this has been said but if you have a problem with Pheromosa. Git Gud. Theres many ways to approach a Pheromosa and i like to go with the way that suprises people and i always have run peculiar sets that dont follow or go against meta. I havent ran into a Pheromosa that could sweep me and i never made my team worried about pheromosa ever sweeping me. I dont use toxapex as my tank for Pheromosa. I set up rocks and watch her try to put into my pyukumuku after i remove her ability to use stab to her advantage. She u-turns oh well her teamates go into rocks for more chip damage,making it easier for me to kill the offensive presence that Pheromosa may provide.
I also don't build my team around countering a Pheromosa. I choose my mons for countering bigger threats that have been in Ou and haven't been addressed and make it extremely stressful. I see Pheromosa on a team i assume mixed at least scarf at meast and play around with Pheromosas offensive productivness by running scarf Tapu Koko, and/or not giving to much power to a mon that isn't as threatening as people want to make her out to because they cant find a way to get it done. Pheromosa hasnt got the best defense or special defense in the world that if you predict theyll quiver expecting you to switch thats a dead pheromosa with most movepools.

Welp i think I've typed long emough. I think i started to become less coherent towards the end but long whatever i said short. Suspect testing Pheromosa and banning her isn't the smartest solution to make meta with more options. its to introduce options that we had before. i.e MegaLopunny,Mega Altaria, Mega Tyranitar etc and you begin to see more mon usage. The less you focus on Pheromosa and more on what team may build around or a team shes a part of the more you can analyze How to counter the whole other team as a whole and secure the win.

I don't think I can take any of your points into consideration when you mention pyukumuku as a mosa switchin, since it usually can get 2HKO'd to OHKO'd by mosa after some chip damage(which is relatively easy to get on a mon as passive as pyukumuku), + some of your other points have already been repeated for god knows how many times in this thread already.

224 SpA Pheromosa All-Out Pummeling (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Pyukumuku: 234-276 (74.5 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
224 SpA Pheromosa Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Pyukumuku: 118-139 (37.5 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Arguably one of the more common and best sets rn is able to 2hko a mon which is already considered very niche in the meta(C+ rank in the VR as of this post).

Also, to elaborate on your last 'point', we can't introduce Pokemon like Mega Altaria and Mega Lopunny(both of which can only really be considered checks, and not counters) since they aren't technically released in the actual games(I.E. their mega stones aren't obtainable in game without hacking), so that completely invalidates your point.

I'm not going to go through your whole post and comment/debunk each one of your points because I can't help people who are that ignorant to not realise the points that I just made above.

 

[I do meh]

tbh it's a mystery to me why this thing wasn't banned alongside zygarde complete, aegislash, and lando-I. No other pokemon in the ou metagame has as many viable options as pherromosa. Guessing the wrong set can cost you the entire game. There is no worse feeling than when you switch out your ferrothorn or landorus predicting a scarfed or lo hjk/icebeam and then having phero quiver in your face and 6-0 you. It's z-move quiver dance set has only 1 counter in the entire game, that being toxipex, which is no longer a counter if phero opts to run breakneck blitz over all-out pummeling.
I got reqs and I plan on voting to ban this monster.

 

[TheMohZone]

The reason it wasn't banned initially is because its best sets weren't discovered until recently, in around the Duggy Suspect.

At the start of S/M Mosa was hard to stop but it had...2 sets? All Out Attacking and Scarf. Those are the two i know were prominent around that time anyway. And stuff like Maro-A came up to deal with it, and it was managable. At the time we all thought it was a balanced Pokemon.

Then people realised "Hey its Special Stat is usable for more than coverage and Z-Moves are fucking absurd" which led to the monster Mosa is now. QD was rejected out of hand at the start of S/M in favour of spamming HJK and U-Turn, now its one of its best sets. Z-Moves were mostly used on Lures and Stuff like Z-Fly and Z-Hyper Beam was considered a waste of a move slot, now look at how the meta has shaped up.

Mosa wasn't Broke at the start of S/M, but as it evolved with the meta it got to the point we are at now.

People asking "Why wasn't it quickbanned" Really need to look at posts from the start of the meta to get an idea of how it shapped up. Didn't Mosa drop as low as A or A- in the viability rankings before its other sets were discovered? Its easy to say now it was obviously busted, but at the time it seemed very managable.

Can we please not have a "Why wasn't it quickbanned" post again?

Oh yeah if it wasn't obvious Ban, Mosa is stupid. I personally think Greninja and especially Meta are a bigger problem (Much as i love them) but outside personal opinion Mosas probably the most ridiculous of the 3 given its snowball effect and just how devestating it is off a wrong set guess. you probably don't just lose a mon, you lose the game.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Actually one thing I haven't seen picked up on but without Phermosa, Hydreigon should be a lot better in this metagame. It's true it has to deal with Tapu Fini still but Pheromosa was one of the reasons why Hydreigon was pretty meh this gen. Pheromosa was faster and killed it with it's STAB U-Turn, Bug Buzz, Low Kick, Hi-Jump Kick or Focus Blast. With Mosa gone it should be used slightly more. Fairies are still an issue though.

 

[Orga777]

To expand (kinda) upon what was said above, so much changes with Pheromosa gone.

• Serp is more viable [it could never sweep with mosa alive]
• Slowbro is a tad more viable [still has a hard time with Greninja being around.]
• scarf gar isn't as valuable to teams [one of the best offensive checks]
• Toxapex offense is much less relevant [yeh]
• Rain has a much easier time [scarf outspeeds all rain sweepers]
• Tornadus is more viable and much more [still has problems with Gren being around]
• Most important tho is that Metagross and Greninja lost a very huge check.

Theres many more and despite the metagame still being iffy imo the changes this creates is .... BIGLY

Yeah well, Mega Metagross and Greninja are both busted, too, even with Phero in the tier. They will get their suspects eventually, I am sure.

So far I like how everything is shaping up without Pheromosa. Sure, Gross and Gren are as obnoxious as ever, but I have been trying some interesting things, and I am with others that say Hydreigon has become more viable. I have been using it a bit and it seems effective and it really does synergize well with Mega Metagross right now. It is a nice check to Ash Greninja without Ice Beam and it doesn't give up offensive presence like Toxapex does. Hydreigon also stops MegaGross from switching in at any time. I like the Timid LO 3 ATKs + Roost set. It does some nice damage, though SpDef Celesteela can switch in okay against everything but Fire Blast. Hydreigon scares out Scizor and Ferrothorn, too rather easily, and Lele is slower if not Scarfed (which has been dropping in popularity these days) and can deal at least 50% to it with Dark Pulse. And if it is Specs or Scarf, it cannot spam Psychic with it hanging around. It also mercs Tapu Bulu without Scarf with Fire Blast. It is also a very good Ghost resist that are on less and less teams right now. It eats every form of A-Maro and is a good check for Scarf Gar. Gaining a Scarf isn't the worst thing in the world, after all. You need to watch out for Focus Blast, though. However, I am still low ladder for this suspect test (time and all that) so I don't know how good it is in the 1400-1600s yet. But it certainly is better with Pheromosa out of the picture.

 

[0verloud]

haha it happens...

As for the suspect ladder - the only reason I see MegaGross dropping BP is that they're on PsySpam ft. Lele, where BP would otherwise be counterproductive. I feel the same way about Scald Fini, but that's a topic for another day.

Speaking of which, where's each of the individual Tapus in the midst of this suspect do we think?

Don't think that any of the tapus will get tested, and if they were, the only one to get tested would be lele, because it's the most versatile, i.e., scarf, specs, psychium, LO, and I still see shed shell now and again. Fini is good, but lack of recovery isn't gonna get it tested. Koko is still good, but is really frail, and not as versatile as lele is. Bulu could drop to UU, honestly, (is it already UU?) but it'll probs stay BL. BUT BACK TO MGROSS: I think gross can't also run bp because of threats like celesteela as well. As for zygarde....he needs a test more than meta imo

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

Don't think that any of the tapus will get tested, and if they were, the only one to get tested would be lele, because it's the most versatile, i.e., scarf, specs, psychium, LO, and I still see shed shell now and again. Fini is good, but lack of recovery isn't gonna get it tested. Koko is still good, but is really frail, and not as versatile as lele is. Bulu could drop to UU, honestly, (is it already UU?) but it'll probs stay BL. BUT BACK TO MGROSS: I think gross can't also run bp because of threats like celesteela as well. As for zygarde....he needs a test more than meta imo

I'm not saying they should be suspected - I was just wondering how they're doing with Mosa gone.

 

[Gary]

Yeah okay. This is getting stupid. Anymore posts that deliberately attack people just because of their opinion will be immediately deleted regardless of what was said in the rest of the post. I'm tired of seeing users call people pathetic, idiotic, or plain bad because they don't share the same opinion as you. Especially when most of these posts are usually backed up by extremely poor arguments that ironically makes them look more hypocritical than anything else.

This applies to both pro and anti ban users, not just one. However so far a majority of these kinds of posts are coming from the people who are against banning mosa. Considering that every member of the OU council wants it banned, and a large majority of the community have given very solid evidence to back up their claims on it being banned, it seems pretty arrogant to come on here and start bashing the majority without having any sort of solid evidence outside of "fuck smogon", "git Gud", or "my team has never lost to it therefore it's not broken". This sort of shit could potentially keep other players who happen to be anti ban from posting, even if they could potentially have compelling arguments, because currently they are being represented by posters that clearly don't have a clue what they're talking about and are purposely being ignorant. This is why it seems like I've been deleting a lot of anti ban posts recently. Not because I'm trying to snipe all of you from trying to keep it from being banned just because I want it banned myself, but because a majority of these posts have been so god awful that keeping them around would just create unhealthy discussion. Don't worry, I've deleted plenty of posts that have been pro ban too, some have been just as bad.

That's all. Oh and kartana is not an answer to mosa.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

I'd say that a lot of us are restless because not a lot is going on otherwise, but yeah I respect that.

If I may be slightly daring - may I suggest, that considering an overwhelming majority of us seem to be pro-ban, locking this thread for a bit; open up a thread exclusively for anti-ban arguments (an 'any objections' thread, if you will), and seeing if any posts there are viable? Just a thought.

 

[NewfieDude]

I'd say that a lot of us are restless because not a lot is going on otherwise, but yeah I respect that.

If I may be slightly daring - may I suggest, that considering an overwhelming majority of us seem to be pro-ban, locking this thread for a bit; open up a thread exclusively for anti-ban arguments (an 'any objections' thread, if you will), and seeing if any posts there are viable? Just a thought.

This seems like the best idea honestly. It's pretty obvious that all the things about phero and how it's broken for the OU tier have been listed multiple times now, I see no reason to keep this thread up because there really isn't anymore to say.

It's probably best to open a separate thread and see if any worthwhile anti-ban arguments get made, because there has been little to none of those here.

 

[Rakan]

Just posting to say that opening another thread solely for anti-ban arguments would be extremely redundant and a giant waste of time. Rather than encourage intelligent arguments pertaining to anti-ban sentiments, it will only promote more useless statements like the ones mentioned above and add absolutely nothing to the discussion already in this thread. It also defeats the purpose of having a suspect discussion thread where all sides are meant to be viewed and posted on.

 

[Korago]

While not an strictly "anti-ban" argument due how restrictive it is on team building, Shedinja is the best Pheromosa counter in the entire game. So lets talk about it for a little while

With its ability "Wonder Guard" it is only affected by moves of the following type:
Dark, Fire, Flying, Ghost and Rock.
Of those types, Pheromosa has the following damaging moves:
Hidden Power, Bounce and Fling.
Hidden power of any of those types is extremely rare and I have yet to ever see or hear of anyone running toxic on Pheromosa.

Unfortunately due to its hard coded 1 HP stat, Shedinja is only really viable on hardcore stall teams and even then it can struggle if the opponent has a rocker that can get them up through Sableye and Skarmory.
Still, I would argue that Shedinja definitely counts as a "viable" pokemon in the current meta(C rank in the viability thread)

 

[Sun King]

While not an strictly "anti-ban" argument due how restrictive it is on team building, Shedinja is the best Pheromosa counter in the entire game. So lets talk about it for a little while

With its ability "Wonder Guard" it is only affected by moves of the following type:
Dark, Fire, Flying, Ghost and Rock.
Of those types, Pheromosa has the following damaging moves:
Hidden Power, Bounce and Fling.
Hidden power of any of those types is extremely rare and I have yet to ever see or hear of anyone running toxic on Pheromosa.

Unfortunately due to its hard coded 1 HP stat, Shedinja is only really viable on hardcore stall teams and even then it can struggle if the opponent has a rocker that can get them up through Sableye and Skarmory.
Still, I would argue that Shedinja definitely counts as a "viable" pokemon in the current meta(C rank in the viability thread)

Shedinja counts as viable because Mega Sableye exists, and should only ever be used on heavy hazard control teams. There is no credible reason to assume Shedinja should be talked about here because it alone forces a tremendous burden on its own team, meaning using it for the purpose of countering Phero is forcing you into using a really specific team.

 

[Mame YO]

Hear me out before you delete this.

I'm still convinced that there is an echo chamber stifling debate here. It's like you've allowed yourselves to be so sucked in by your precious consensus philosophy that opposing viewpoints are largely opposed and ridiculed as invalid and/or you attack the poster (as Gary mentioned). It's very much like a political ideology. Sure, you may be like the Grand Old Party in that you don't all necessarily agree with each other point for point, but the starting place is the same with all of you.

Let's talk about the main point you all seem to be making: removing mosa will introduce variety that we haven't seen to this point of SM OU because of the constraint that mosa apparently imposes on team building. And let's ignore for now the fact that greninja and metagross do the same exact thing...

What mons stand to gain in viability? People have mentioned serperior, weavile, hydreigon, etc as mons that stand to benefit from a pheromosa ban. But how much will mons like these truly profit in an environment that still contains many major obstacles to their viability? This mindset may be noble but isn't the most likely outcome to be that the meta merely centralizes around other S/A rank mons instead? And then what happens when you ban those mons? Another mon steps in their place? Today it's mosa, tomorrow it's metagross. Then ninja. Later on it becomes Zard X or maybe tapu Lele, or whatever. It doesn't matter.

The point is that you can't fight the power creep by banning every mon that presents challenges to team building. You have 6 slots, and 24 move slots. You can't cover everything. There will always be a mon that you have to prepare for in team building, or another mon that you may not be able to fully account for. Do we ban them too until we're left with a stale and predictable metagame?

I realize that this post is in danger of being deleting for straying from the narrow topic of banning pheromosa or not, but let's not kid ourselves; You will ban pheromosa. The only logical argument against banning pheromosa relies on doubting your ban philosophy. if you refuse to entertain that your philosophy is not infallible, then there is no coherent argument to be made against banning whatever S rank mon you're having trouble with at any given time. And I personally find that to be unfortunate. So go ahead, ban this mon, and then the next. And the next. You will only have yourselves to blame when team building becomes formalaic and gameplay becomes stale and predictable despite your best intentions.

 

[Toshiro46]

Hear me out before you delete this.

I'm still convinced that there is an echo chamber stifling debate here. It's like you've allowed yourselves to be so sucked in by your precious consensus philosophy that opposing viewpoints are largely opposed and ridiculed as invalid and/or you attack the poster (as Gary mentioned). It's very much like a political ideology. Sure, you may be like the Grand Old Party in that you don't all necessarily agree with each other point for point, but the starting place is the same with all of you.

Let's talk about the main point you all seem to be making: removing mosa will introduce variety that we haven't seen to this point of SM OU because of the constraint that mosa apparently imposes on team building. And let's ignore for now the fact that greninja and metagross do the same exact thing...

What mons stand to gain in viability? People have mentioned serperior, weavile, hydreigon, etc as mons that stand to benefit from a pheromosa ban. But how much will mons like these truly profit in an environment that still contains many major obstacles to their viability? This mindset may be noble but isn't the most likely outcome to be that the meta merely centralizes around other S/A rank mons instead? And then what happens when you ban those mons? Another mon steps in their place? Today it's mosa, tomorrow it's metagross. Then ninja. Later on it becomes Zard X or maybe tapu Lele, or whatever. It doesn't matter.

The point is that you can't fight the power creep by banning every mon that presents challenges to team building. You have 6 slots, and 24 move slots. You can't cover everything. There will always be a mon that you have to prepare for in team building, or another mon that you may not be able to fully account for. Do we ban them too until we're left with a stale and predictable metagame?

I realize that this post is in danger of being deleting for straying from the narrow topic of banning pheromosa or not, but let's not kid ourselves; You will ban pheromosa. The only logical argument against banning pheromosa relies on doubting your ban philosophy. if you refuse to entertain that your philosophy is not infallible, then there is no coherent argument to be made against banning whatever S rank mon you're having trouble with at any given time. And I personally find that to be unfortunate. So go ahead, ban this mon, and then the next. And the next. You will only have yourselves to blame when team building becomes formalaic and gameplay becomes stale and predictable despite your best intentions.

You're right. None of what you just said is coherent in the least. The simple fact of the matter is that the Suspect OU without Pheromosa has already shown to be much healthier and more diverse than the one with her. Your argument holds no water; if something is broken, it should be banned. If we let everything broken stay in, people would never use anything but the broken mons.

You're suggesting we fix power creep by letting it happen without intervention, when the only real way to do it is to control how it happens in such a way that the meta is balanced, not centralized, and diverse. We have evidently moved closer to all three of these with Pheromosa's suspect.