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Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Beauty and the Boost - Pheromosa is now banned

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by ABR, Mar 24, 2017.

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  1. ABR

    ABR
    is a Tiering Contributorwon the 13th Official Smogon Tournamentis a defending World Cup of Pokemon champion

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    [​IMG]
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    Hey everybody, the OU tiering council has decided to test Pheromosa.

    Pheromosa is one of the most unique Pokemon to ever exist in the history of the Overused tier. It is a very offensively inclined Pokemon, with an extremely polarized stat spread. It has the greatest base speed of any OU Pokemon, while also containing very high mixed attacking stats. On the contrary, it has relatively poor defenses compared to many of its OU counterparts. Another unique aspect of Pheromosa is its access to the Beast Boost ability, which enables a sort of snowball effect. Pheromosa's stats, ability, and other traits, when in tandem with one another, make it out to be one of the deadliest threats in the current metagame.

    At the start of the generation, Pheromosa was immediately seen as an immense threat. It quickly became a highly debated Pokemon, with part of the community calling for its quickban from the OU tier. Things eventually cooled down and the metagame settled more, but nonetheless, Pheromosa has remained a very hot topic.

    In addition to its aforementioned stats and ability, Pheromosa has many other offensive boons. Having access to powerful STAB moves such as High Jump Kick, Focus Blast, and Bug Buzz, alongside coverage such as Ice Beam and Poison Jab, as well as the ability to gain momentum with U-turn, Pheromosa is a devastating offensive force. To supplement this, Pheromosa also has a wide array of viable sets, which causes a certain degree of unpredictability. Pheromosa can run Choice Scarf (both physical and special), Choice Specs, and even Z-move sets such as Normalium Hyper Beam (Quiver Dance) and Fightinium Focus Blast (QD or Rapid Spin). Each of these sets utilize Pheromosa's innate offensive traits, such as its mixed attacking stats and Beast Boost ability, in a very powerful way. Due to this, Pheromosa is incredibly difficult to switch into, and also often difficult to revenge kill. All in all, it's not hard to see why Pheromosa is a premier threat in the OU metagame.

    Despite its incredible offensive traits, Pheromosa has some notable defensive shortcomings. It sports 71/37/37 bulk which is far from ideal. And, despite its Beast Boost ability often granting it speed boosts to outpace opposing threats, Pheromosa still takes significant damage from priority moves. Only a couple of common priority moves outright OHKO Pheromosa, while the rest of them can potentially kill with some prior damage.

    Due to the fact that Pheromosa has been a consistently controversial Pokemon since the dawn of the generation, and that there are legitimate claims to it being a broken force in the metagame, the OU tiering council has decided that it is time for a suspect test.

    For this round we are going to have two alternative ways to qualify for voting:
    1. Laddering: you will need to achieve a COIL rating of 2700 (or more) in a /!\ game limit of 70 games /!\ on the OU Suspect Test Ladder (in which Pheromosa is banned), that will be implemented very soon.
    2. Suspect Tours: check McMeghan's thread.

    The suspect test will last for approximately 2 weeks and will end on April 7th.

    Use this thread to discuss the suspect and your thoughts on the suspect metagame. If you have any questions, then feel free to contact ABR, bludz, blunder, bro fist, Finchinator, M Dragon, PDC, and/or TDK through a PM. These threads tend to get derailed so please make extra effort to stay on topic. Future suspects need not be discussed in this thread.

    Keep in mind that, as usual, it's going to be up to the playerbase to decide the outcome of this test. Good luck and have fun laddering!

    /!\Rules for posting in this thread/!\
    • No one liners nor uninformed posts;
    • No discussion on other potential suspects;
    • No discussion on the suspect process;
    • You are required to make respectful posts;
    • You are required to read this thread before posting.

    Failing to follow these simple guidelines will result into your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.

    /!\ NOTICE /!\ OU will not be tolerating any form of voting manipulation. Any attempt to manipulate votes can result in an infraction, loss of eligibility to vote in the current test, and loss of the Tiering Contributor badge. While we won't necessarily enforce super strict punishment, this won't be tolerated and will be handled accordingly. Voting manipulation can simply be described as attempting to get people to vote a way on the test in inappropriate manners. Bribing with teams to vote a certain way, directly messaging people to vote a certain way, publicly announcing "vote this way" all fall under voting manipulation. If you have any further questions feel free to shoot TDK a PM.

    Antar's edit: as with the previous OU tests, the B value for this test is 17.0. To figure out how many battles you will need to have in order to achieve reqs, first determine your GXE (shown on the ladder and when you type /rating) and plug that into the following formula:

    N=17.0/log2(40*GXE/2700)

    (Google calculator is awesome for this kind of thing).

    Here are some sample values:
    Code:
    GXE N
    100 30
    90 41
    85 52
    80 70
    75 112
    70 324
    Tagging The Immortal so that this can be implemented on PS - thank you!
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2017
  2. ABR

    ABR
    is a Tiering Contributorwon the 13th Official Smogon Tournamentis a defending World Cup of Pokemon champion

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    588
    The OU Council has decided to try something new this time around. Each of us will be sharing our personal thoughts on the current suspect in the hope that it sparks good discussion, so feel free to respond to any of our points.

    ABR (open)

    Pheromosa is a very unique and multifaceted component of the metagame, but what it boils down to is a powerful strain which stunts growth and development. The main factor that separates Pheromosa from other threats is, in my eyes, the need for limited, specific checks to it rather than fluid counter play.

    Due to Pheromosa's immense speed, and ability to accumulate speed boosts from Beast Boost, it is not susceptible to traditional revenge killing. You cannot simply use a Choice Scarfer and check it like you do with other offensive Pokemon. As per this trait, we are left with two means of dealing with Pheromosa: priority and walling/tanking. Priority can definitely be used to do damage to Pheromosa, but only super effective moves like Mega Pinsir QA or powerful ones like Ash Greninja Shuriken can outright OHKO. More commonly seen priority moves, like that of Mega Metagross, come far from an OHKO (~69-83% damage). Therefore, most teams without great walls for Pheromosa are left to use multiple priority users, and still a few Pokemon will be lost in the process.

    In regards to pure walls, the options are still fairly limited. Pheromosa's choice sets, while certainly very powerful, are not impossible to pivot around. However, the set that has really pushed this Pokemon past the breaking point for me is the rising Z - Focus Blast. This set not only allows Pheromosa near flawless coverage with STABs + Ice Beam, but also the ability to switch moves in addition to ridiculous raw power such as OHKO'ing Mega Scizor. As such, the usually good switchins are: Toxapex, Alolan Marowak, Tapu Fini, Clefable, and then some softer ones such as Torn-T and Gengar. While it isn't impossible to run one of the great switch ins or a softer one + priority, the current necessity for that is, in practicality, overwhelming.

    As a builder myself, I find that Pheromosa enacts too large of a strain on team building. When I am going through the process of making a team, one of the first things my mind always goes to is "well am I going to run Toxapex or Scarf Gengar + MSciz" or something along those lines. I don't mean to use my personal experience as proof, but rather as insight into the practical implications of a straining Pokemon. Pheromosa has too few solid switch ins, and coupled with the fact that Beast Boost + passable bulk prevents revenge killing, it is restricting. Ridding the Overused tier of such a force is likely to stimulate metagame development to a healthier point, and for these reasons I am leaning towards ban.

    bludz (open)

    I believe Pheromosa is too strong for the OU tier due to its raw power, speed, and versatility. It can run quite a number of very effective sets which do not all have the same counterplay, most of which are deadly late game. Outside of select counters like Toxapex, most checks to Pheromosa can be worn down or pressured rather easily. Most priority moves do not OHKO Pheromosa, which isn’t that prone to being chipped by Rocky Helmets etc, and moreover priority is less reliable than in the past due to the possibility of Psychic Terrain. Choice Scarf users are perhaps the most unreliable way to deal with Pheromosa in terms of teambuilding, because there is always the possibility that it gets a speed boost after a KO, which makes it too fast for everything except oppoosing Scarf Pheromosa.

    While Pheromosa places a great deal of strain on teambuilding, reacting to it in battle is also very difficult, even if you have prepared countermeasures. Pheromosa possess many potent sets, but each set helps the viability of other sets due to promoting varied counterplay. For example, Ash Greninja’s Water Shuriken is known as one of the best ways to revenge kill Pheromosa. However, if you can manage to Quiver Dance, Water Shuriken stops being a reliable counterplay, even though it is always going to work against Pheromosa’s other sets. Pheromosa’s other sets such as Choice Specs and Choice Scarf help to force switches, while the threat of Quiver Dance tempts opponents to stay in. In turn, this is extremely beneficial when you are not running Quiver Dance sets, as it increases your opponent staying in and letting you nab a KO. Fightinium Z sets are trending right now, in part due to bluffing Choice locked sets, as well as how good a special Fighting-type nuke is with Ice-type coverage in your back pocket. Of course, Z moves have excellent synergy with the ability Beast Boost in general, since it makes racking up your first KO much easier. And with the legitimate possibility of nabbing a boost in any one of its 3 already impressive offensive stats, Pheromosa is extremely intimidating and difficult to play against. All in all, it is very easy to keep people guessing at what Pheromosa is running until it attacks. The importance of this can’t be understated – you can often be put into positions where it isn’t actually possible to know the right play due to just how strong and versatile this pokemon is. I plan to vote to ban Pheromosa from OU, as I believe its presence hinders creative teambuilding and the further development of the metagame.

    blunder (open)

    Pheromosa is a very #rare Pokemon and easily the face of the current metagame. I consider Pheromosa to be unhealthy because it constricts building and does not allow for the opponent to have counterplay measures, but instead carry designated hard stops, i.e the rise of Toxapex offense. One of the things that sets Pheromosa apart from other hard hitters in the tier is that it already has the highest base speed out of viable Pokemon. To add to this it’s ability pushes it over the edge in terms of revenge killing counterlpay as it is able to easily rack up speed boosts to where no other scarfer, save for a + speed nature scarf Pheromosa can try and pressure it. The fact that no scarfer in the tier is capable of taking on Pheromosa leads it to be beaten by opposing walls such as Toxapex or Clefable, or from priority attacks from Mega Metagross or Ash Greninja. Offense in general has an incredibly hard time taking on Pheromosa as its counterplay is reduced to priority spam and even then Pheromosa will punish a team in the process. As for Pokemon that are designated in walling Pheromosa, only a few are consistent in this regard. Toxapex, Clefable, Marowak, and Tapu Fini come to mind although the latter two are hard pressured with their lack of recovery and Marowak is hard pressed to come in on U-turn especially if Stealth Rock is put up. Offense has some counterplay in Pokemon that are gaining popularity such as Gengar and Tornadus but Gengar is still pressured by Ice Beam and Tornadus-T is not a suitable counter unless hazards are removed.

    Simply put, Pheromosa has a complete chokehold on the current metagame that no other mon can claim. The restriction it puts on building is absolutely ridiculous and forces offense to run two or more strong priority users, Toxapex, Gengar + another soft check, and for almost all teams – to have Stealth Rock off the field. Pheromosa’s unpredictability covered with Beast Boost to punish offense or bulkier teams respectively push it over the edge in the current metagame and it needs to be banned if the metagame is to evolve.

    bro fist (open)
    My stance on Pheromosa has changed a lot since the start this generation. In the days when Aegislash roamed free, it was, in my opinion, as underwhelming as a Pokemon could be. As the metagame has developed however and players figured out what works the best, Pheromosa has risen to become one of the most threatening Pokemon in the tier. The chokehold that Pheromosa currently has on the SM OU metagame is unhealthy. Pheromosa puts a huge strain on the teambuilding aspect of the game, forcing players to use very specific things such as multiple priority moves on offensive teams and hard checks like Toxapex on other types of teams to deal with it. It has a multitude of different, effective sets, its most popular ones being Rapid Spin + 3 Atks with a Z move, Choice Specs, Quiver Dance and Choice Scarf. Pheromosa's sheer power, speed and fantastic offensive movepool allows for all of these to be equally deadly under the right circumstances. I am a strong advocate of positive metagame development and I want SM OU to have great staying power for years to come. I believe Pheromosa's presence in OU greatly hinders said development and because of this am currently leaning towards voting ban.

    Finchinator (open)

    Pheromosa has been one of the best Pokemon in SM OU since the start of the generation. With incredible offensive statistics and plenty of tools at its disposal, it's not too surprising to see this speedy Bug-Fighting Ultra Beast on the chopping-block. While Pheromosa is an incredibly versatile Pokemon, I think that two sets are the most threatening currently and are the main reasons as to why Pheromosa warrants a suspect in SM OU: Special Z-Focus Blast and Choice Specs variants. While Pheromosa can also be a Choice Scarf user and can fulfill various offensive roles in general, these variants are the most consistently effective, hard to counter, and generally potent in the current metagame.

    Overall, these sets have limited counterplay and with a Pokemon like Pheromosa, if you lack a true counter, then you're going to suffer given how fast it is and how its ability, Beast Boost, allows it to potentially snowball through teams if there isn't sufficient priority to keep it in check in the long haul. In terms of the counterplay that it actually does have that is viable in the tier, Toxapex has been a recently trendy Pokemon that, more or less, counters Pheromosa; the only things that it must worry about are Z-Hyper beam Quiver Dance and Specs Hidden Power Electric sets. Outside of that, Tapu Fini, Clefable, and Alolan Marowak are the main counters to it, but Tornadus-Therian, Gengar, and various other can function as situational checks to various degrees if not played too recklessly. The thing is that this is a very shallow pool of Pokemon and, outside of Toxapex and Clefable, none of them have enough longevity to outlast Pheromosa on fast-paced teams on a consistent basis due to the lack of recovery.

    Moreover, as a teambuilder, I find Pheromosa to be incredibly restricting and I find the metagame to be held back to a significant extent. However, as a player, I find Pheromosa to be pressing to an even greater extent simply due to how potent it is on the offensive end of the spectrum and how, even if the opponent has a couple checks or a soft counter, it can potentially pull away and pretty much be the center-of-attention throughout game due to it being so hard to keep in check for a prolonged period of time. Various metagame trends such as the aforementioned Toxapex utilization, Scarf Gengar being frequented by some, and the slight increase in Clefable usage outside of hard-stall have been provoked solely by the presence of Pheromosa and despite adaption to threats being natural and healthy to an extent, Pheromosa's impact and presence is far too demanding and troublesome given how unforgiving it otherwise is.

    M Dragon (open)

    Pheromosa is a very interesting pokemon. It is like a Deoxys-A (great offensive stats but terrible defensive stats) that has a better typing and ability but a much worse coverage, to the point that there are a number of mons that completely wall it, no matter what set it has.

    After the Aegi ban, when a lot of people thought that it was very broken, Pheromosa showed as a very strong pokemon that while was a strong hitter, was easily walled by things like Toxapex, Mantine (it wasnt uncommon back then), or Marowak-Alola (it was very used early SM as well) and really struggled in a world full of priority.
    However, after some time, new very powerful sets and strategies around Pheromosa were developed showing its true potential. But in my opinion, the thing that makes it suspect worthy is probably its ability: after it gets a kill, it makes an already fast and powerful sweeper even faster, so offensive teams cannot rely on scarfers to RK it, and the scarf sets get attack boosts, so sacrificing something is not really a good option to stop it, because now you will be facing an already very powerful mon that already outspeeds absolutely anything in the game that also has an attack boost.

    A lot of strategies were developed to take advantage of this: surprise zmove to get a kill, specs being at +1 speed +1 sp atk after a kill.

    Lastly, it has access to 2 of the best moves in the game: U-Turn and Rapid Spin. U-turn means that while Phero is 100% walled by some mons like Toxa, other monsters like CB Zygarde or Hoopa can come in and hit really hard and start opening holes very easily.

    PDC (open)

    I believe Pheromosa itself is responsible for the majority of current metagames trends and centralization due to the unfair restraints it places on conventional team building. Pheromosa is an incredibly adept Pokemon; it fits on far more teams than it is given credit for, is able to run a surprisingly large amount of viable sets despite its rather limited movepool, and dictates offensive teams with its crushing speed and offenses.

    Pheromosa ails the metagame in the sense that it forces specific archetypes and counters to be ran, and severely limits the choice of available Pokemon that can be used. While it may seem an 'easy' Pokemon to counter (this connotation is incorrect, mostly fed by false early metagame pretenses), Pheromosa manages to pivot around most counters easily with U-Turn (while simultaneously wearing them down), places an undo burden on any offensive teams due to them either being forced to sacrifice momentum or drastically alter their archetype to be sufficient enough against the aforementioned threat, and can be blamed for the recent proliferation of centralized builds as of recent.

    Despite its frailty, Pheromosa's general offensive prowess and ridiculously blistering speed more than compensates for its weakness to priority and general attacks. Couple this with its incredibly useful ability - Beast Boost - and you have a 'mon which is nearly impossible to revenge with most Choice Scarfers and forces the use of priority. There of course are hard stops to Pheromosa, those being Toxapex, Marowak, and Clefable, but all three of these are incredibly easy to take advantage of.

    TDK (open)

    I wanna open this by stating that this is not a "oh shit we messed up" decision. I firmly stand behind the belief that Pheromosa did not warrant action early on in the creation of the metagame nor do I have any regret over ignoring it. However, metagame developments and discovery of new sets due to SPL exposure has pushed it over the edge, in my opinion.

    I wanted this suspect to happen because I feel like Pheromosa, simply put, doesn't belong in OU any longer. Its absurd offensive stats coupled with its Speed make it an incredible threat that puts an unreasonable strain on teambuilding. In particular, sets focusing on Z-Focus Blast have incredibly limited counter play, relying almost entirely on Toxapex, Alolan Marowak, Mimikyu, and the many priority users that exist. While it's not an utterly unstoppable behemoth with legitimately no viable OU counter play like some things we've previously taken action against, it is a Pokemon that posses incredibly strength and simply has a negative impact on the metagame. While counter play does exist, to an extent, it's incredibly limited and unreasonable to aptly prepare for.

    Speaking purely about counter play, the most reliable answer is Toxapex. Toxapex is probably the most surefire way to reliably beat it, however, even with this in mind, there are other sets available to people, including HP Electric, found on either Specs, Life Orb, or Fightinium Z. This allows Pheromosa to 2HKO Toxapex upon switchin (can do upwards of 80% to Toxapex when Modest Specs Pheromosa is within Electric Terrain). While this isn't exactly standard or Pheromosa's most frequently used set, it's something to take into consideration. Alolan Marowak, unlike Toxapex, simply is able to live any hit Pheromosa can throw at it with ease. Marowak also punishes Pheromosa for going for High Jump Kick, restricting Pheromosa's abilities even more. However Marowak isn't the epitome of a bulky Pokemon and it is weak to Stealth Rocks, making it incredibly easy to wear down. Lastly, all the priority users in the tier, between Mega Scizor, Banded Zygarde, Bullet Punch Mega Metagross, Mimikyu, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Mawile are able to heavily dent or straight up eliminate would be threats. While this is one of the more effective forms of counter play, Pheromosa's incredibly poor bulk turns out to be just enough, in most cases, to survive a single hit from these Pokemon. Mega Pinsir, obviously, kills no matter the circumstance, and Adamant CB Zygarde, which is the standard, always kills Pheromosa after rocks, and has a decent chance to do it without. With this in mind, nothing stops the Pheromosa from switching out of any of these attacks, which is why priority isn't exactly a catch all way to defeat a Pokemon.

    I really like to focus on defensive synergy when building with Pokemon; I'm a big fan of things like Mega Metagross, Alolan Marowak, and Landorus-Therian. Three big offensive threats provide a lot of utility to a team by what kind of things they handle and check, while not at all being anything close to passive. Pheromosa doesn't really do anything defensively for a team. I'm gonna go back a little bit to about a year ago to when Hoopa-Unbound was still in the tier. I still had similar views to what I do now, but Hoopa-U made me realize something; sometimes offensive threats that don't check much are just too good to pass up. I used Hoopa-U a lot after my SPL games vs Sweepage and Gingy where Specs Hoopa-U collected 6 kills in two games. It put loads of pressure on both teams used and simply 2HKOd everything on the playing field. It put both games in my hands to play and it rewarded me for getting a few predictions right. Pheromosa is not the same thing Hoopa-U was in XY; it doesn't simply 2HKO the entirety of the tier. However, Pheromosa does somethings that Hoopa-U could not do. The speed tier Pheromosa posses is incredible; getting a reliable way to revenge kill a multitude of Pokemon without going into a Choice-locked Scarf Pokemon is incredibly nice, but also its speed makes it that much harder to counteract. It also has a really under looked factor; Rapid Spin. Offensive Spin Pheromosa is such an incredible asset to teams that I simply love using it. It's a very prolific offensive threat that doubles as one of the most viable hazard removers in the tier. Pheromosa can also pull off another very nice set in Choice Scarf. Scarf Pheromosa is simply the fastest Pokemon in the tier, being able to revenge kill any threat that doesn't find the time to boost twice or is Agility Mega Metagross. Its great strength gives it loads of power right off the bat and lets it nail offensive threats with ease. All of the things I mentioned above simply ignores sets for offensive reasons as well. I feel moments of deja vu whilst using Specs Pheromosa to the times of Specs Hoopa-U in XY; get a prediction right and collect a kill, or get the ability to switch out as they switch into a resist to your Choice-locked attack. I'm not going to say these two 'Mons are anywhere close in terms of power, though. Specs Pheromosa has far less spammable STABs than XY Hoopa-U and relies almost entirely on Focus Blast, one of the things you really would prefer not to rely on. This all ties into why Z-Focus Blast sets are so good; you really don't need to rely on it, should predictions go right, just click your perfectly accurate All-Out Pummeling and collect a kill.

    All of the counter play I listed is most certainly enough reason to justify a stance against banning Pheromosa; albeit, I disagree with it, it's most certainly understandable and quite logical. Pheromosa has means of not being an uncounterable being, with good play, it doesn't simply turn a game around because of its skill set. However, its presence and existence is deterimental to the development of the tier.
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
  3. TDK

    TDK
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a defending World Cup of Pokemon champion
    OU Leader

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2013
    Messages:
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    [​IMG] Live Suspect Tournaments [​IMG]

    Date: Tuesday, April 4th
    Time: 4 PM EDT (GMT -4)
    Host: rozes
    Winner: stay w0ke
    Gained Reqs: stay w0ke, FLCL, RedEmptionMc

    Date: Thursday, April 6th
    Time: 4 PM EDT (GMT -4)
    Host: Prague Kick
    Winner: imsosorrylol
    Gained Reqs: Always!, imsosorrylol, p2

    Both suspect tournaments will adopt the suspect ladder where Pheromosa is banned.

    - 64 man tournament, only the Top 2 (Finals) players get reqs.
    - 96 man tournament, only the Top 3 (Finals) players get reqs.
    - 128 man tournament, only the Top 4 (Semi-Finals) players get reqs.
    - 192 man tournament, only the Top 6 (Semi-Finals) players get reqs.
    - 256 man tournament, only the Top 8 (Quarter-Finals) players get reqs.
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2017
  4. Subject 18

    Subject 18
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
    Moderator

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    May 3, 2012
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    1,334
    Thread is now open. Happy posting :toast:
  5. z0mOG

    z0mOG you big guy
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    gonna post more fleshed out thoughts later but here they are summed up into one picture
    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2017
  6. Toshiro46

    Toshiro46

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2017
    Messages:
    211
    In my opinion, the biggest problem with pheromosa is how versatile it is.

    It can viably run Choice scarf, band, and specs sets. It can run an AOA set with LO on the special side, or the physical side, or just mixed. It can use Normalium or Fightinium Z to great effect.

    And if you guess wrong as to which set it's running, suddenly you're facing a Pheromosa with a beast boost activated.

    The only reliable way to counter Pheromosa is to use Toxapex, but even then the normalium z set exists, and suddenly your wall is gone and Phero has a SpA or Spe boost. You can check Phero with alowak, but all you're doing is letting the enemy get momentum by u turning out.

    Nevermind that Pheromosa's mere existence invalidates some mons - Mega Beedrill comes to mind, and to a lesser extent the alakazams since they're destoyed by u turn.

    It's just not healthy for the metagame, and if it's banned we'll see more pokes used.
    Gorechomp and thesecondbest like this.
  7. 0verloud

    0verloud

    Joined:
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    OK, BUT IT ALL SERIOUSNESS:
    I'm honestly happy about this suspect. Like some people brought up, the only solid check to Queen P is really Toxapex. But even at plus 1 (quiver dance, which seems to be the most prominent and solid set) it can still 2hko (deal most damage, then either kill it or set up again after the haze). And even if toxapex does have hze and uses it, Beast boost gives it +1 right after again. Now, the thing that pisses me most about this stupid bug is that it's SO FAST, coupled with beast boost. Now, fast mons in the past like Mega zam, mega aero, and mega bee where somewhat easy to deal with because they were fast, BUT SO FRAIL. Now, phermosa is fast and frail, but zam and bee don't gain NEARLY as much momentum. In most situations, to attempt to save something, like if Queen P is going in for the revenge kill, and you want to save it, you end up switching, and in that turn, pher either quiver dances, or damages something badly enough to put it in kill range (AND WE BOTH KNOW NOTHING OUTSIDE OF SCARF IS OUTSPEEDING THAT BITCH). This is how I (and other players) lose in these situations. Pher gets +1, and what SHOULD BE a reliable check in the form of chansey, because of it's MASSIVE SPDEF should be able to para it and let something else pick up the kill.
    Right?
    HAHAHHAHA NOPE!
    LET'S JUST YEET OUT THAT z-FOCUS BLAST, WHY NOT? and by then, pher is at +2 SPATT, +1 Speed.
    Why not take it out with prio? sucker punch?
    No dude, and there's even a chance they run lele for this situation.
    Oh, and I forgot to say that if chansey is at 75% , Queen P will kill without with Z-Blast EVEN WITHOUT +1
    Only reliable check is MAYBE mimikyu (but he's not that good to be bringing him on your team, why not bring Maro-A?)
    And even if you DO bring mimkyu, once he's gone, you're donzo.
    IN CONCLUSION: QUEEN P NEEDS TO BE BANNED BECAUSE:
    -It's vast moveset makes it unpredictable and even more versatile than other solid mons like Lando-T or Garchie
    -It has a very very few checks outside of scarf mons
    -z move push it over the edge
    -it gains momentum and sweeping potential (after it's threats are eliminated) faster than any mon (I'd Argue) IN GAME (not that it's the best, but it sweeps SOOOO QUICKLY)
    -It's not even a good waifu imo, throw it in prison
    ^jokes
  8. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Breaking hearts since '09
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    Pheromosa is just too potent in its role to be allowed in OU. While I was down with the idea of having a mixed wallbreaker that outspeed the entire unboosted metagame after the initial SuMo hype, I quickly realized how influential Pheromosa became after Genesect had been banned. I initially thought that priority and solid counters in Toxapex and Alolan Marowak would keep it at bay, while the first point may be still true, the rise of sets such as Quiver Dance Normalium Z and Fightium Z quickly diminished the amount of answers to Pheromosa. This is also exacerbated with its ability Beast Boost that can make it either faster then potential Choice Scarfers that may want to revenge kill it, or just flat out stronger. As the council stated, if Toxapex Offense is becoming a common staple on in tour games and the skyrocketed usage of rather niche sets in Scarf Gengar and Greninja, we can evidently see the toxic influence that Pheromosa inflicts the OU metagame with, which is why I will be voting to ban it.
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  9. vsomani

    vsomani

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2016
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    Pheromosa is most definetly broken with access to so many sets and a great movepool. It can fit in a wide variety of offenses teams and can do a ton of roles. It possesses an incredible ability in beast boost and can go either physical or special. It breaks past every single check in the game and can clean teams up.
    (Lets start with its sets( I will only be covering certain sets and not super team specific sets.)
    To kick things off, lets start with its worst set, Life Orb Physical Rapid Spin. This set is super niche, facing competition from other sets like Fist Plate(or Black Belt) Rapid Spin and Expert Belt Rapid Spin.
    Life Orb Physical Rapid Spin has a small niche over both the sets, as it has a stronger U turn compared to any other rapid spin set. It spins hazards, which can be more useful than Quiver Dance. The Power Upgrade allows you to weaken up this sets checks.
    However, it is very easy to weaken into range of common priorty such as Mega Metagross' Bullet Punch or Greninja's(Pre Ash) Water Shuriken.
    The next set is Fist Plate/ Expert Belt Rapid Spin. This does not take recoil, and rapid spins for common offenses carrying spikes greninja or dual hazards ferrothorn. It is, undoubtedly, the best Rapid Spinner in OU. It keeps momentum and offensive pressure, and can break down walls not named toxapex, and appreciates spikes' utility to soften down marowak alola and Tapu Fini as it clicks U Turn.
    The next set is Choice Specs. Choice Specs is a pokemon to build around, having massive power. It 2hkoes Tapu Fini, Mantine, and Toxapex with Hidden Power Electric. It 2hkoes Marowak-Alola with a Modest Ice Beam after sr.
    The next set is Choice Scarf. It revenge kills perfectly and can clean teams and even Rapid Spin.
    The next set is Quiver Dance + Fightinium Z/Focus Sash/Normalium Z. Fightinium QD ohkoes keldeo and mega metagross with z focus blast after rocks. Focus Sash makes setting up easier. Normalium Z breaks past Pokemon like toxapex, Tapu Fini, and Mantine.
    Every plastyle needs at least two checks. Even then, the matchup isn't too bad for Pheromosa. Spin Mosa still spins, scarf mosa still revenge kills, and Quiver Dance can have an easy time luring in Toxapex or just cleaning after weaking its checks and counters. Tapu Lele's Psychic Surge mitigates priorty. All what we lose by banning it is a spinner, which is very worth it. Favoring a ban by a large distance.
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  10. Night Train Lane

    Night Train Lane

    Joined:
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    What are even no ban arguments? It's frail! Which is proven that doesn't matter when it gets everything else that it needs to be the best Pokemon in the tier. (Removal, Speed, Coverage, viable Z-Move options, 6 different sets.) and lives most neutral priority. It doesn't restrict building! Which it most certainly does considering the most splashable answer to it is Toxapex. Which the only reason Toxapex offense is a thing is to consistently counter mosa which it can't even do because of the Z hyper beam shit.
    It has counters! Like what?...Marowak ig...Toxapex...Mantine... marowak is pressured by U-Turn + rocks or spikes, Tox is blown away by the lure set, Mantine does to HJKs after rocks and is fiddled by HP Elec.

    If anyone is willing to play devil's advocate and present a reasonable argument to why it SHOULDN'T be banned I think it would be helpful.
  11. Toshiro46

    Toshiro46

    Joined:
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    Yeah, I'd like to hear any argument saying that it's healthy for the metagame, because I really can't see it.

    Frailty never stopped Blaziken from being banned, nor Deoxys-A/Normal. I don't see why Phero should be any different. She's basically just Deoxys-A with slightly better defenses and speed and worse attack, but she also has a better typing and a wayyyyyyy better ability that can quickly make up for her lesser attacking stats.
  12. Garchomp for president

    Garchomp for president

    Joined:
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    I believe Pheromsa is actually beneficial to the tier despite popular opinion. While Pheromosa boasts fantastic speed and offensive stats, it's movepool is as shallow as its defenses and as such, nearly all Pheromosa sets have similar checks. Arguably, the best way to put a halt to Pheromosa is offensively checking it either by popular priority users like Ash-Greninja and Mega-Metagross or by scarf users like Garchomp or Gengar. Pheromosa also encourages intelligent hazard stacking and hazard control on both sides due to Pheromosas aforementioned weakness to priority. Phermosa also has extremely popular defensive answers in Toxapex and Tapu-Fini that absolutely eat up Pheromosas Stab. In addition to this, a key factor in dealing with Pheromosa is sleuthing out and reacting to it's set, adding another level of skill required to deal with it. If Pheromosa is allowed to remain in the tier it will create a metagame rewarding quick, offensive play, hazard stacking and will require every playstyle, especially stall, to skillfully maneuver around it.

    who is the madman that is actually going to vote no ban tho
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  13. Freeroamer

    Freeroamer The greatest story of them all.

    Joined:
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    How can you read what the council have put and still come across with statements like offensively checking it via scarfers and priority and healthy for the tier all at once? The point is that due to the fact it's so fucking fast already and can run Scarf itself / beast boost, there is not a single scarfer you can put on your team and say, ok guys we got pheromosa covered. Only Gengar somewhat comes into mind there and that's due to typing not proficiency as a Choice Scarf user. Mega Metagross does not OHKO Pheromosa, again this was brought up earlier in the discussion, Ash Ninja does but needs to have transformed prior to doing so. Where on earth does this statement about intelligent hazard stacking keep coming from? Pheromosa dislikes hazards and abuses them itself yes, but the same can be said for almost any offensive Pokémon and as such cannot be considered an argument for keeping a Pokémon in OU. Toxapex is a hard counter yes, while Fini is a hard check but how many more of these hard checks are there? Should every non offensive and in some cases offensive teams be forced to run one of these Pokémon??? Dancing around a Pokémon that could viably run a fuckton of threatening sets might be skill to you, but in my mind that's just another part of the reasoning for its brokenness given that it's limiting counterplay in both building and initially in game, assuming you have the check to the set you're facing of course. Suspect threads are always interesting but i honestly don't know how you go through that reasoning and arrive at a final verdict of healthy for the tier when to me and many others, it's anything but.
  14. DeltaRott

    DeltaRott

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2016
    Messages:
    61
    This is the first suspect test that I feel somewhat confident enough in my reasoning ability to voice my insight on, and so I will. Sorry if this is too lengthy and/or somewhat repetitive; I'm aiming to try and become a better player and share my insights on what has been... a very controversial mon, to say the least.

    I want to ultimately open with my personal opinion of Pheromosa not being a broken Pokemon, but rather one that is unhealthy for the metagame as a whole. This saddens me to write, as Pheromosa is one of my favorite Pokemon of all time, but obviously such a thing is irrelevant in suspect testing. The matter of fact is that Pheromosa's unique qualities have allowed it to continuously find a presence in a meta that keeps attempting to shake it off. It's a pesky bug, in that sense. (kill me)

    No, but really, at first we were just dealing with HJK/U-Turn/Spin/Ice Beam variants. Then, around SPL, we started to see specs Pheromosa begin rising in usage. Then, my personal favorite set even before it became popularized, Quiver Dance came about. That's not even mentioning how many sets it can utilize - especially with Z-Crystals. as you can run Quiver Dance with Fightinium, QD with Normalium(hitting things like Volcarona, Gyarados, and Toxapex which were considered checks and a counter respectively), or hell, you can run Fightinium with other moves + spin if you so choose. Pheromosa is a mon that flourishes with the tools it's been given, and I wouldn't even call its movepool very diverse to begin with anyway.

    The reason I'm mentioning all of this is that counterplay vs. Pheromosa has become increasingly difficult, and borderline outrageous. I mean, the idea of Toxapex offense rising because of Pheromosa itself is just sad, especially considering Normalium can blow right through it anyway. There's only a handful of things that can provide a universal answer to Pheromosa - that, of course, being priority(and even that requires chip damage), ghosts like Gengar/Marowak/Mimikyu., and a fully invested Jolly Pheromosa of your own - and that in itself will account for very specific team structures that will not help the meta progress further. Sure, there are mons like Toxapex and Tapu Fini that can temporarily stop Pheromosa from winning, but Normalium can just rip through them as well. Perhaps you're thinking of using AV Magearna as your Pheromosa answer? It can High Jump Kick you for an easy 2HKO, preventing you from being anything close to a switch-in. And perhaps what's worst of all, it can serve as a STAB U-Turner, hitting for some great damage and keeping momentum on the Phero player's side.

    A traditional answer to speedy mons/win-cons has been using Choice Scarf, but that's not exactly a viable strategy(except for your own Phero - and I would argue scarf isn't even close to its best set right now, making it a massive opportunity cost) thanks to its almost trollish speed tier. Beast Boost can allow it to go first in any situation(sans priority), or continue to increase its attacking power until it violently rips apart your whole team. And I think the worst part of it all is that god forbid you don't know the exact set it's running, it can kickstart its momentum and put you on the defensive immediately.

    Entire games need to be played around Pheromosa, regardless of whether or not there are other threats you need to account for. One decision can completely turn the game around whenever this Pokemon's on the field, and I strongly believe that it has an unhealthy aura about it. As such, it should be banned. I would attempt to achieve reqs for this suspect test, but unfortunately the next two weeks are busy ones for me.

    I would love to hear arguments about Pheromosa not being worthy of a ban if there are any, but for now I think it's just a matter of time until we send this Ultra Beast into Ubers.

    tl;dr: Pheromosa is unhealthy for OU as it stands; the meta will not progress further with it around. and should go for the betterment of the tier.
  15. LetheYC

    LetheYC

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2017
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    Nothing is more infuriating than having to play around Phero (except for maybe Gren :p). Despite HO struggling for the most part in the meta, I still try to run it and anytime I see this thing, it makes me panic. Even with low defenses and priority threatening Phero, having Lele as a potential partner mitigates that issue. It's just hard to play against something that has the ability to check practically every offensive threat.
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  16. Night Train Lane

    Night Train Lane

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2017
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    this is untrue as bug/fight/ice is nearly perfect coverage. Poison jab makes it perfect coverage if it runs it. Ofc you get the odd Pokemon such as Mantine / Tox but those are handled by even more coverage in HP Elec or the lure set that is popular, rn Z-Hyper Beam. It also gets Quiver Dance which is outright broken punishing the opponent for trying to predict around the set. It even gets Rapid Spin to remove hazards and is the fastest non scarfed spinner
    if by similar checks you the same three pokemon, then yes, Its checked by the same three Pokemon. Except none of those are splashable on every playstyle and (I'm repeating myself) pressured extremely easily or handled by a coverage option.
    this isn't arguable, it's just true. Mainly because it's the only way to handle it since some teams just can't handle it defensively without referring to some jank combination of Toxapex on offense. and sometimes you can't even do that cause it can run a scarf amd outspeed your rain sweeper or your Scarfer that was put on the the team specifically for it.
    hazard stacking is the goal of honestly any team. Setting rocks is always a main objective for any team and Mosa actually hurts this process as it gets access to Rapid Spin.
    uhm sure they eat up stabs but they drop to lure sets (zbeam and zjab.) And Fini doesn't enjoy taking specs or Z-Focus Blast especially if you come in while it Quiver Dances.
    +1 224+ SpA Pheromosa All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 186-219 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 120-141 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- 71.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    this was actually ban arguments for Greninja and Genesect. If you have to constantly sac Pokemon to figure the sets because you can't tell based on preview what the set is then it's a problem.
    I feel like this is purposely putting a positive spin on its influence. I could say "If Pheromosa is allowed to remain in the tier it punishes safer play, reduces the ability to comfortably keep hazards on the field, makes every playstyle, especially Offense and HO, use the same basic double prio or Tox + Scarfer to maneuver around it." and it would sound much more accurate AT LEAST IN MY OPINION.
    tbh I might do it just to say that I voted no ban
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2017
  17. QuickBH

    QuickBH

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2011
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    1,123
    Good choice on Smogon to start testing Pheramosa, it's insanely hard to stop and with 0 risk is able to predict, there is no cost for going for U-Turn when you're able to 1v1 a majority of the tier and even if you make the wrong play you can just switch-in to Lando-T/Mega Meta/whatever mon necessary and just get a free kill. Yes, Pheramosa individually is actually easy to check, but it's such a skilless mon that forces you to bring x Pokemon that it devolves this game into one of the worst metas of all time. I'm going to bring up something for the rest of the commenters.

    This isn't DPP, a Pokemon doesn't have to be impossible to check to be cancerous. SuMo is absolute trash right now, and it's because of how many Pokemon that require 0 prediction and can yet be so damn effective that does so.

    Yes, Pheramosa is typically checked by stuff like Tapu Fini and Mega Venusaur, but in a tier with literally 30+ Pokemon that can spam x move and get away with it because they're so ridiculously powerful, having to run specific stuff just to be able to handle one mon is ridiculous, but you got to do this for a crap ton of Pokemon as well. (Zygarde, Mega Metagross, Volcarona, Landorus-T, Mega Mawile, Mega Scizor, Tapu Lele, and the list goes on and on and on) It promotes the most stagnant, boring, and quite frankly skilless metagame because when you don't have to predict there is no skill in Pokemon.

    Show Hide

    This isn't helped with the fact that previously healthy mons got buffed to absurd levels. Landorus-T used to just be a pivot that was mainly used to gain momentum and function as a solid offensive/defensive check to stuff that also provided momentum, now Landorus-T is another completely ridiculous Pokemon thanks to Z moves and you're forced to run either Skarm or your own Landorus-T to soft check the god damn thing, and good luck predicting around it because unlike DPP these mons hit so damn hard that you might as well just sack a mon.

    So being able to check a Pokemon period isn't the problem, it's if it actually makes a healthy metagame that promotes prediction instead of stealing someone else's team and praying you have a good MU in tours. If Pheramosa goes, there's less skilless bs which the only way to check is by running a specific check, and quality>quantity. We don't have enough mons to check all this bs (It's why I think Aegislash shouldn't have been quickbanned but that's a subject for another day) and why people need to desperately get rid of the idea of "being able to check semi-reasonably means a Pokemon should stay."
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
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  18. I'm Rick Astley

    I'm Rick Astley
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2014
    Messages:
    149
    After watching a bunch of tour and ladder games, and from my own experience in the tier, I think the best decision is to Ban Pheromosa. I'll start off by explaining what my main criteria is in the way that I vote. What I consider above all else is how much skill a pokemon adds or deducts from the tier.

    Pheromosa has certainly caused some centralisation in the tier. Toxapex is a common sight now, and is currently put on teams that don't really want to run something so passive, but have to do so in order to check Phero. While Toxapex is certainly a viable pokemon, having to run it disrupts the synergy of teams, because it really does drain momentum, and do stuff like let the opponent defog easily. The second adaptation I've noticed is Mimikyu being used as an emergency stop, primarily for Phero, on HO teams. It's not used exclusively for Phero, because it can be used to stop, for example, Greninja, as well, but not losing to Phero is the main purpose. However, other than functioning as an emergency check to particular threats, Mimikyu is a very mediocre pokemon. Consequently, the HO teams that choose to run Mimikyu give up a lot of offensive pressure, because its attack stat is weak. Some other adaptations are Alolan Marowak, and priority being used a lot.

    However, it's not the adaptation required that leads me to believe Pheromosa should go. It's the fact that despite all this adaptation, it's still easily the best wincon in the tier. Mimikyu can only beat out Pheromosa if its disguise remains intact, which means you have to save Mimikyu specifically for it. Furthermore, Pheromosa makes fantastic use of Z moves; it can use Z Hyper Beam at +1 to take out a weakened Toxapex, or a weakened Tapu Fini. Priority isn't reliable when Pheromosa can be supported by Psychic Terrain, and as ABR mentioned, most priority doesn't outright OHKO it either.

    To link this all back in with what I said about skill, it's clear at this point that Pheromosa deducts from skill, due to the fact that it is much easier to win with than anything else in the tier. Despite the effort that teams put into not losing to Pheromosa, it still make fantastic use of ZMoves to break through even its best checks after a little prior damage:
    +1 252+ SpA Pheromosa Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 209-247 (68.9 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
    And that's assuming it runs a lot of sp def.
    Once you force one sack, Pheromosa snowballs very quickly thanks to Beast Boost, making the QD set even more threatening.

    In conclusion, Pheromosa is a pokemon that has forced a lot of adaptation in order to not outright lose to it. But the real issue is that despite all this adaptation, it is still unbelievably effective. Pheromosa has the ability to just close up games in a way that no other pokemon can, and requires the opponent to build their team using a very specific set of pokemon, which may be detrimental in other circumstances, in order to not lose to it. Even if you are prepared for it, giving it a single free turn, or not preserving your check to it well, can still lose the game. The extent to which it can just clean up games which would otherwise be lost is incredible. Overall, Pheromosa is a much more consistent and easy to use wincon than anything else in the tier. Despite the effort that people have gone to in order to check it, it is such a devastating sweeper, and it stands out as something which proves way easier to play with than against. For that reason, I believe Pheromosa is too easy to win with relative to the rest of the tier, and thus deducts from the skill required. Therefore, the correct decision is to ban it.
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
  19. thesecondbest

    thesecondbest Just Kidding I'm First

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    Aug 12, 2014
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    688
    U-turn broke genesect, and u-turn broke pheromosa. You get a powerful stab bug move that nothing besides shed is immune to, and get switch initiative for free. While pheromosa does not have the same coverage as gene or bulk, it has hjk, which is way better than gene's secondary stabs, as well as better offensive stats. Phero has ice beam to hit lando, good setup moves, and can also abuse the bullshit that is z moves. And poison jab is icing on the cake to hit fairy types. What can wall phero besides ghost and poison types? and even then just u turn out on them! This mon is broken I think. (maybe u-turn is the problem because that move is broken but I don't see smogon banning moves anytime soon)
  20. Marzbar

    Marzbar

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2009
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    I am NOT suggesting Pheromosa shouldn't be banned. Let me make that clear.

    But I've read a lot of people complain here and elsewhere about Pheromosa (and also Mega Metagross and Greninja) being too "unpredictable" and "versatile."

    Why is that a bad thing? Do you really want this game to become predictable and boring? Where each Pokémon only has one obvious set to play around?

    By all means ban Pheromosa. But not because it's unpredictable. That's not a valid complaint, especially when the same people will complain the next month that the meta is boring.
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  21. Toshiro46

    Toshiro46

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    Jan 29, 2017
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    It's not that we want a predictable game, it's that the game is dependent on predictions, and when you have a mon that can run so many viable sets to so great an effect, you're essentially tossing a dice as to which set its running, and in the high chance you get the roll wrong, you're either sacking or significantly weakening a mon, just because you had to make a completely uneducated guess as to which set Phero was running. There's no real skill in that, it's just chance. We want to advocate skill here, not baseless guessing.

    As Night Train Lane said above, sacking mons just to scout for sets is why Genesect and Gren (back in the ORAS day) were banned. This shouldn't be any different.
  22. Jojobobo

    Jojobobo

    Joined:
    May 8, 2010
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    I think the key thing is Pheromosa just too fast, and when you couple that level of speed to almost any other good characteristic (Beast Boost snow-balling, great offences with several viable sets and items combinations to exploit them, Rapid Spin utility, U-turn to effortlessly pivot out of counters) it becomes a problem.

    Why is being so fast such a problem? Well though bulky or bulky-ish counters do exist like Toxapex and A-Wak, and there are some reasonable priority using checks like Band Zygarde, Mega Pinsir and Ash Greninja, the only other checks people can run are Scarfers. Choosing to run a Scarf on a mon is an inherent limitation, as you can only use a single move at once, so this provides a restriction on how that pokemon can play - so not only are you limited to running a Scarf mon (if you don't want to run one of the previously mentioned options) but by running a Scarf mon you are placing a constraint on yourself the opponent can easily exploit.

    In this way, Pheromosa almost becomes doubly restrictive in terms of your effective counter measures, exerting more pressure on your team building due to its speed tier by encouraging the use of Scarfers who are themselves innately counter-able due to attacking with a single move.

    Overall I think it's readily apparent there's only a small section of the current meta that can deal with Pheromosa, and even then Scarfers can be rendered ineffective if Pheromosa gets just a single boost plus priority can be nerfed entirely if you pair it with Lele. If you can't tell where this is going I think it should get a ban, and if I bother to cobble together a competent Trick Room and get the reqs it's what I'll vote - but given how majority in the thread seems strongly pro-ban there doesn't seem to be a huge point in doing so.
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
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  23. Eraxxer

    Eraxxer

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    Mar 18, 2015
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    167
    I think almost everyone agrees this thing needs a ban, but I want to comment on something: just because the without-phero meta is fucking awful, which it is, doesn't make phero less broken. The metagame was a few broken pokemon propping each other up using landorus as a base. If things are still broken after mosa, aka baton pass and metagross, they will be dealt with. But don't say that we shouldn't ban pheromosa because it stops x y and z from being too good.

    I was thinking of laddering but boy oh boy does this metagame suck. In 10 games you'll get 3 baton pass, 4 sticky web, 1 stall and only 2 normal teams. I'm probably just going to rely on the common sense of other people to vote ban this time, i'll see what happens.
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
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  24. FreeSymphonia

    FreeSymphonia

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    Jan 3, 2017
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    Pheromosa quite literally needed this suspect. It's one of the best mon in the game, boasting its ability to run a plethora of sets (Scarf, Quiver Dance, Specs, or just 3 Attacks + Rapid spin with Z-focus blast). It's too strong, too fast, and its coverage is way too good on one mon. It restricted the teambuilding especially; making it almost required to run Toxapex and other soft checks for it (Priority users like Mega Scizor, Ash-Gren or mons like Gengar). It definitely deserves a ban and respectfully so. I liked using it, but some things you need to let go for the greater good.

    Will say, the suspect ladder ain't fun as fun tho...
  25. nofakethekairi78

    nofakethekairi78

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2017
    Messages:
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    I agree with this suspect test.

    First, how to deal with pheromosa?
    for offense teams:
    -if Psychic terrain isnt here, the most reliable way is: priorities:Mega Pinsir can ohko it with Quick Attack(be careful if it carries Focus Sash);other priorities users need prior damage;ash greninja must be placed(but it loses against quiver dance)
    -Ghost types, like gengar and mimikyu can check it. But they die quickly...
    -Fast choice scarfs are a good option IF pheromosa isnt scarf/isnt boosted by Beast Boost
    -Some mons, like Alola Marowak(i dont think it is good) can check, in a certain extent, the bug.
    For balance/stall:
    they are toxapex/mega venusaur/unaware clefable/pelipper/..., but they lose against quiver dance+Z hyper beam/poison jab variants/... Nothing can deal with every pheromosa variants...


    What are the problems with this mon?
    -Its ridiculous speed tier: even without a scarf, it outspeeds the whole unboosted metagame, and thanks to its good offensive stats+its good moves, it can ohko the majority of offensive threats.
    -with a scarf, even sand rush excadrill in sandstorm is revenge killed.
    -Thanks to Beast boost, life orb variants can outspeed and kill the majority of scarfs which are supposed to revenge kill it;scarf/quiver dance variants can snowball and finish the game.
    -...

    Honestly, I dont think Pheromosa has a good impact on the metagame, it is a bane for offense teams.

    Despite its bulk, which is horrible (71/37/37),and even it isnt broken, I think Pheromosa is unhealthy, If I get a req, I will vote ban.
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