Phero used it because Toxapex resisted literally every other attack it learned except Fling and Hidden Power. There's no reason for Kartana to do that when Leaf Blade hits for neutral damage. Going through S to A-, the only things you can't hit neutrally with Steel/Grass/Fighting coverage are A-Wak and Char-Y, which Giga doesn't help you beat.
Raikou is even outclassed as a cming electric type by tapu koko. Koko can run roost (reliable recovery is huge, frees up the option to forgo lefties for a z crystal or whatever) or taunt over substitute, while still having that sexy 130 speed tier. The change in bulk that lets raikou sub on zap, which is admittedly nice, but as far as I can tell neither can sub on fini without at least cm, 1 for kou and 2 for koko (0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Raikou: 51-61 (30.9 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery vs 0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 43-52 (29.4 - 35.6%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery), though koko is better with roost over sub anyway. The pure electric typing only helps with checking sciz a bit better, which is also nice but not quite enough to get ranked over imo.While I agree Kartana could rise (good speed tier with stupidly high Attack and good defense with the ability to run a couple different sets, it can break through fatter teams easily), you are misinformed about Z-Giga actually doing things.
252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 199-235 (65.4 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Kartana Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 152-179 (50 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Do not use Z-Giga Kartana please
On to my own nom
So this mon got a lot worse between gens, it now faces competition from Tapu Koko as an electric type with a good speed tier now, but I feel like leaving it unranked is inaccurate to its viability. Life Orb 4 Attacks is outclassed, as is pretty much every other set, except for SubCM, which is probably its best set atm and is legit good. I've had a lot of success with it when laddering. People are unprepared for it since like no one uses it, and it can catch people off guard too.
Unranked -> C
Raikou @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
This is the set I've been using, and it works great. It works as an effective late game cleaner and wind condition. It sets up or gets a Sub on mons like Zapdos, Tapu Fini, Toxapex, etc. It has decent natural bulk, at 90/75/100, which is more than Tapu Koko and Thundurus. It also isn't weak to Stealth Rock which is everywhere right now like Thundurus is, which is another benefit it has over the other electrics. Its speed tier allows it to outspeed Mega Metagross, which is the biggest one. BoltBeam coverage lets it break through Zygarde, Lando-T, Garchomp, etc. It also has an amazing match up vs Trick Room oddly.
Some replays:
These are two games I played vs Trick Room, and it dealt with them pretty easily.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-561869992
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-561871129
Here's one vs a pretty standard team, Raikou is able to clean up at the end and use Fini as fodder.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-561760557
It isn't the best mon, and it has its flaws, but its strengths are definitely that of a viable Pokemon to me.
Welp. This is gonna sound like I'm some sort of Primarina's fanboy (which truth be told I kinda am) so I apologize for any possible biased statements I might write.
Drop from C+ to C---Unranked
With the Pheromosa ban and the rise of Protean Ninja over Battle Bond, Primarina has a rough time trying to wallbreaking as the meta is going faster and more offensive. Sharing Tapu Fini's typing in this meta doesn't help either, as a lot of teams are overprepared for luring it. Also, the increasing viability/usage of Ferro, AV Tangrowth, AV Magnezone and Zapdos makes it harder to break the usual balance cores. There's a lot of wallbreakers faster and more powerful shadowing Primarina, specially now with the addition of M-Medicham. I can understand M-Medi and Primarina can form a great wallbreaking core due to Specs Prim one-shooting AWak and M-Sableye, but again it faces competition from Tapu Lele to, I would dare to say, Tankfable, which has access to Fire Blast and T-bolt.
The difference between Z-Hyper Beam Pheromosa and Z-Giga Impact Kartana is substantial. I do not see how either of you can get away with using the former as justification for the latter, let alone using anything as justification for the latter.
"Zard X has fallen off quite a bit this gen for many reasons. 101+ Scarfers are way too common and splashable for it to ever reliably sweep, and its early game breaking abilities are hindered heavily by Pokemon such as Rocky Lando-T, Toxapex, and recoil from Blitz. SR are also a lot harder to remove at the moment and it is easily pressured because of this."
Yh i am on cellphone.... so did not see, i literaly searched for half an hour to see if i found omastar, then you realise how much you miss ctrl f. But as said, omastar is sooooooo powerfull, it legit pops traditional rain counters laughthing
I agree with you that zard is a great wallbreaker. The thing is while it's a wall breaker that's all it can really do in this meta. It's dd set and bulky wisp sets are just mediocre. Gyrados (and Lando to an extent) sets up easier with dd and marowak/hetran are great bulky fire types with offensive presence. Yes zard has roost, but it also come in at half before mega evolving if rocks are up. Not to mention it's still an offensive mon and is taking a chunk from every mon in
You can sit here with your thumb in your mouth and try to tell me that Zard X is just worse on paper but the fact of the matter is that you can't just load up a bunch of facts and immediately act like they're insurmountable because in a game it's incredibly easy to play around the things you mentioned. If you can hit me with a 101 scarfer (just at a quick glance chompy is the only one in the A ranks...), rocky helmet lando-t, toxapex, and a team where i'm just unable to remove stealth rock because it revolves around keeping hazards (bisharp + a ghost), then yes I VERY much get why I would struggle to have Zard X be effective in a game (which basically means you would need a team of Scarf Garchomp, Lando-T, Toxapex, Bisharp, Ghost-type, + filler to poop on Zard X in every single way possible)
what is the EV distribution and nature for this set? I can't find it anywhere :/B+ ---> A
- Zapdos has been seeing a lot more usage recently for its 3 attacks Roost set, which allows it to still retain its bulky capabilities while being very difficult to manage defensively in general outside of very fat special walls. Elec/Fire/Ice coverage is very useful in the current metagame, and keeps Pokemon such as Zygarde, Lando-T, Scizor, Ferrothorn, Pinsir, Mawile, and so many other threats in check.
Zapdos @ Leftovers
You have completely failed to provide an actual arguemt as to why it should rise a rank when it just dropped a weak before. You using hyperbole and your personal bias doesn't spawn healthy discussion.
Gastro Acid gets bounced too, yknow.
Whether it's implied or not those reasons are WHY it dropped just because you don't agree doesn't nullify all arguments about why it's so underwhelming lmaoo
I'm pretty sure his argument is that the reasons for it dropping are either untrue or insignificant. You can absolutely argue that a change that was made was ill advised without having to wait a month for the metagame to change.
The problem is he is using his personal team built around zard X to try and argue its viability instead of looking at it from a more broad view. He needs to provide actual reasoning why it is as good as other A- mons outside of "I use x, y, and z mon to support the stuff zard X struggles with". Provide tourney replays or high ladder games where this thing actually does something other than do 50% with flare blitz a lando and die from EQ. The meta is not kind to it right now and there was some good discussion about it before it dropped, not just a name picked out of a hat.
I'm sorry but that's just false buddy. I never mentioned my personal team
