Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Colonel M]

Chansey B+ -> A-

Chansey is one of those odd Pokemon that traditionally belong on stall teams, but honestly it fits nicely on balance and bulkier balance teams as well. Chansey is one of those special walls that just bone over so many Pokemon and it can bail balance teams out of crappy weaknesses to threats such as Greninja, Volcarona, amonst other high tier threats. It's a pretty consistent user of Stealth Rock and can Thunder Wave for balance teams or Toxic for stall. It's literally on every good stall build outside of rare events where Calm Mind Blissey is used instead. I get many people knock on Chansey Offense, but honestly it's pretty nice to have that one fat mon that just invalidates a lot of specially offensive Pokemon. The fact it can body things like Choice Band Zygarde or even eat a fucking Subzero Slammer from Kyu-B is pretty nuts too.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

Colonel M in the context you've provided, I personally disagree with a Chansey rise. Even on offense, I believe Chansey to be far too passive for the archetype to fit there, along with its vulnerability to Knock Off. It works on stall so well because A) it's able to exercise its role as a cleric (something it can't really do on offense, I have learned throughout the years), and B) Stall is basically a mental game of tag anyway due to the pace the nature of Stall teams force both players to run at (allowing Chansey to pick and choose it's opportunities without sapping momentum). MMedi; Mawile-M and Duggy are also in A rank(s), and can check Chansey with basically no effort (or in the case of Duggy: trap, set up hazards, cripple and kill it, which leaves a large dent in the Stall that we all prejudice so much).

Even as someone who finds clerics underrated, I'd keep Chansey in B+... if not drop it to B due to the scale of G7's power creep and the state of the current metagame.

 

[Toshiro46]

Only thought on koko vs smreagle is ithe prevents spore and nuzzle doesn't work on it so if they don't have magic coat it's a bad time and it's still possible they could just u-turn into hazard control and have its sash broken

Koko has no business being used as lead if they see shuckle because why wouldn't it run mental herb?

Think hp ice is to good to give up for beating 4x super effective things cause otherwise they can put a tear on someteams

Both points in its favor, both not mentioned by them. Koko gets beat ez by Shuckle, too. And HP Ice is ofc great, probably better over Nature's Madness.

wtf? Everything Ultraballz said I had already said in post 1226, the post you first quoted. I mentioned the 3 best megas and thunderpunch (obviously metagross, medicham, and mawile based on viability rankings) and the fact that Koko matches up well against webs. I mentioned that Koko can shut down any wall too which is why it's effective vs Stall. Not sure why you're saying his are actual arguments as opposed to mine when his are the same thing i said.
Smeargle has to correctly predict whether or not Koko even has taunt and whether it will use it if it does. The advantage lies with the Koko user.

You didn't give any reasons for any of these. Just mentioning that the three megas get an advantage from electric terrain doesn't change anything because that's been true since day 1 lmao, Ultraballz actually pointed out that the recent introduction of Medicham and Mawile works in its favor as they appreciate the switch in. Moreover, Megagross doesn't run thunder punch as often anymore. Part of it is that he just presented his post as an actual argument.

Koko also has to correctly predict what Smeargle will do. It's a 50-50, in the favor of neither. If anything, the safe plays for each are magic coat and taunt, and so it's actually in Smeargle's favor.

Well, GH[O]ST mentioned everything by saying:
"Electric Terrain gives the 3 best Megas in the tier the option of having "psuedo-STAB" thunder punch allowing them to further manhandle teams."
Obviously, these are Metagross, Medicham and Mawile. I guess you just read too quickly and thought he did not provide enough reasons to support a rise.

Koko vs Webs:
Against Koko, imo it is best to lead with Zygarde honestly, force out the Koko, take the Uturn dmg and Thousand Arrows something like Landot. If its defensive Landot, you can double to Smeargle and get up your webs on it.

edit: was too late

I read it. That's not a point in its favor. It's had electric terrain boosting STAB since the first day of release. An argument for rise would be saying shit like "Megagross is running thunder punch more often, and Medicham runs it more and more specifically due to its partnership with Koko."

If I said "CharY hits hard as fuck with Fire Blast due to its insane SpA and Drought and thus should be A+", that's not a good argument. CharY has had a hard hitting Fire Blast since XY. Its power hasn't suddenly changed for its rank to change. An actual argument would be "Due to the lack of strong relevant fire resists in the meta right now that also don't take SE damage from Solar Beam, CharY's switch ins are limited to Chansey, Toxapex, Heatran, and Zygarde. Chansey is run almost exclusively on stall, and stall has decreased in popularity due to the strong stallbreaker sets gaining in popularity as well as the strong breakers like Mawile and Medicham destroying stall. Toxapex is also mostly run on stall, as toxapex offense has decreased in popularity since Phero's ban. Heatran is hit by focus blast and can't do much to CharY regardless. Zygarde can actually switch in, but only a few times, unless it gets time to take advantage of lefties. But Zygarde is running band more and more, which limits its switch ins since it has less bulk investment and no lefties." There's a difference between enumerating a man's qualities that it's had since day 1 and enumerating why the meta has shifted more towards it.

Note: Not advocating for a CharY rise.

 

[Sun King]

Colonel M in the context you've provided, I personally disagree with a Chansey rise. Even on offense, I believe Chansey to be far too passive for the archetype to fit there, along with its vulnerability to Knock Off. It works on stall so well because A) it's able to exercise its role as a cleric (something it can't really do on offense, I have learned throughout the years), and B) Stall is basically a mental game of tag anyway due to the pace the nature of Stall teams force both players to run at (allowing Chansey to pick and choose it's opportunities without sapping momentum). MMedi; Mawile-M and Duggy are also in A rank(s), and can check Chansey with basically no effort (or in the case of Duggy: trap, set up hazards, cripple and kill it, which leaves a large dent in the Stall that we all prejudice so much).

Even as someone who finds clerics underrated, I'd keep Chansey in B+... if not drop it to B due to the scale of G7's power creep and the state of the current metagame.

Gooooonna have to disagree with you here bud. Chansey is much MUCH more than a simple cleric. It's one of the single most reliable ways to set rocks for any team with a defensive backbone, as it walls so damn much and forces so many switches. I'm also gonna have to pick apart your argument regarding the rankings of Medi, Mawile, and Duggy. Just because they're ranked A doesn't make Chansey worse off; Chansey isn't even meant to tackle them (although some variants of Duggy can't touch Chansey). Because they check Chansey does in no way make Chansey's ability to body essentially every special attacker invalid, nor does it hurt Chansey's ability to T-Wave/lay rocks/Heal Bell. I'll grant that late game, Chansey tends to sink momentum more unless it's walling, but it's so effective at coming in and seriously making a long term impact on pretty much every game (via paralysis or setting up SR).

By virtue of Chansey's consistency game in and game out, I'm willing to support a raise to A- as well.

 

[Colonel M]

Colonel M in the context you've provided, I personally disagree with a Chansey rise. Even on offense, I believe Chansey to be far too passive for the archetype to fit there, along with its vulnerability to Knock Off. It works on stall so well because A) it's able to exercise its role as a cleric (something it can't really do on offense, I have learned throughout the years), and B) Stall is basically a mental game of tag anyway due to the pace the nature of Stall teams force both players to run at (allowing Chansey to pick and choose it's opportunities without sapping momentum). MMedi; Mawile-M and Duggy are also in A rank(s), and can check Chansey with basically no effort (or in the case of Duggy: trap, set up hazards, cripple and kill it, which leaves a large dent in the Stall that we all prejudice so much).

Even as someone who finds clerics underrated, I'd keep Chansey in B+... if not drop it to B due to the scale of G7's power creep and the state of the current metagame.

What?

First off while I understand that Chansey is prone to Knock Off so are many other Pokemon - basically any Pokemon that covets their items like Tangrowth, Celesteela, among other Pokemon don't enjoy Knock Off. Only those with Z Crystals or Mega Stones humor Knock Off - and the rare occasion where a Choice item or Life Orb is deemed unnecessary. Secondly, many passive Pokemon fit in balance teams because that's the general point of balance - it combines both offensive and defensive presence on teams. Third, Chanseys don't even run the cleric role - that's usually done by Clefable in most cases since Chansey can passively remove status with Natural Cure whereas Clefable can't. Being a cleric on offense is usually not the intended goal with Chansey - it's to be a complete cockblock to special attackers that are very dangerous in the tier right now (Greninjas, Volcarona, 3 attack Zapdos though that can be PP stalled to an extent) and cripple them with either Toxic (and before you say this I'm aware that Gunk Shot Protean is immune to Toxic) or Thunder Wave (before you say it obviously not Zapdos) while passively wearing them down with Stealth Rock or going all out with Seismic Toss. Though Wish + Protect or having Heal Bell can work on some teams, but in general it's better to have a status effect and Stealth Rock to allow your other Pokemon like Landorus-T, Heatran, or Garchomp into more devastating roles (i.e. Z Move breaker sets or Double Dance for Lando-T). I don't really understand the momentum thing with stall, but I'll ignore it for now. As far as the Pokemon you mentioned in A Rank - sure, but look at Mega Metagross and Landorus-T at S who also give Chansey trouble, though defensive Landorus-T doesn't always beat Chansey as an example whereas one of the best S Tier ranked Pokemon, Greninja, struggles to do anything without resorting to some whack shit like All-Out Pummeling Low Kick or Work Up. There's also many A+ tier Pokemon like Autotomize Celesteela who is basically barred from sweeping so long as Chansey is alive.

Gen 7's power creep affects Chansey negatively in some ways, but it also significantly favors Chansey because it also helps combat some of said power creep and the state of the metagame.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Honestly I've preferred running sub coil Zygarde over Chansey lately, it isn't trap bait(magma storm taunt heatran) and it still walls char Y(unless they have dragon pulse but then it gets walled by a range of things more) and fire moth. Gives the benefits of 1 on 1 beating Chansey/mega sableye with most stall cores outside of unaware pokes.

I just think the increase to taunt has hurt Chansey but the increase of hazards is amazing overall because it always finds switch ins

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

The tl;dr is that after it's set up Rocks, it's not doing a hell of a lot IMO (other than the off Twave, I get that. Oh, and hi there, Hippo!). It's far too passive to be anything other than a momentum drain to combat the teams that offense looks to combat.

Also:

First off while I understand that Chansey is prone to Knock Off so are many other Pokemon - basically any Pokemon that covets their items like Tangrowth, Celesteela, among other Pokemon don't enjoy Knock Off. Only those with Z Crystals or Mega Stones humor Knock Off - and the rare occasion where a Choice item or Life Orb is deemed unnecessary.

I get this, but I'm saying to an NFE like Chansey - Eviolite is of far more value to it than the likes of than (for example) Leftovers to Clef/Pex and others, and being knocked off or TrickScarfed means loosing a lot of otherwise essential bulk to it (other then lefties on Regen mons, which have one of more reliable ways of sustaining themselves anyway).

Other than this, I can't bash too much what you've put tbh

 

[robopoke]

Another argument for a Chansey rise:

Teams having Z-Moves and Megas discourage teambuilders to integrate Knock Off in to their mons moveset.

 

[Sun King]

The tl;dr is that after it's set up Rocks, it's not doing a hell of a lot IMO (other than the off Twave, I get that. Oh, and hi there, Hippo!). It's far too passive to be anything other than a momentum drain to combat the teams that offense looks to combat.

But that's not true. It can spam Seismic Toss to wear down things, wall literally half the meta if not more, and you're really underselling the impact T-Wave has on it. Things that like switching into Chansey (Meta, Medi, Maw, etc.) HATE paralysis, making them pretty easy to pick off if they are nailed by the T-Wave; it also has the benefit of forcing the opponent to pick and choose how they get those threats in against Chansey because they're afraid of the paralysis. It HEAVILY skews the counterplay against Chansey in many matchups just because of the advantage gained by the Chansey user.

It really seems like you're falling prey to the fallacy of "because this has popular checks, it isn't great".

 

[MegaStarUniverse]

Zygarde ---> A+ to S what Switchs in to this besides Tangrowth and does not get 2 hit or 3 hit KO'ed? Nothing.. this thing is a beast. the lack of switch ins this thing has is amazing. it chips pokemon such as defensive Landorus-T and Ferrothorn. CB Zygarde also pressures Stall that Clefable's are forced to run near max defense. CB Zygarde also has a fourth move that can be anything such as Iron Tail, Toxic, Superpower and even glare if you want to create yellow magic lol, it just depends on the team. The Sub Coil sets up on so much that teams are forced to run Ice moves to break its sub..... also the fact that this thing is so bulky and can take things on such as Charizard Y, Volcarona, Gengar and other special attackers is the amazing thing about the Sub Coil set.

Hide

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 177-208 (49.5 - 58.2%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 177-208 (43 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 291-343 (81.5 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 216 HP / 176+ SpD Zygarde: 224-265 (54.5 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 204-241 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 216 HP / 176+ SpD Zygarde: 156-184 (37.9 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

Another argument for a Chansey rise:

Teams having Z-Moves and Megas discourage teambuilders to integrate Knock Off in to their mons moveset.

And who's to say those Z-moves can't be used to beat Chansey? Chansey is, at the end of the day, a wall - and with Z-moves being 9/10ths used to wallbreak and/or nuke stuff, would that not hurt Chansey just as much?

And as for Knock and megas - by your logic, would Knock Off not have fallen off more than it did as G6 progressed / towards the end of ORAS? (And yes, I'm aware that they're two different metas... but the cause/effect would still stand).

 

[TPP]

The tl;dr is that after it's set up Rocks, it's not doing a hell of a lot IMO (other than the off Twave, I get that. Oh, and hi there, Hippo!). It's far too passive to be anything other than a momentum drain to combat the teams that offense looks to combat.

Being able to win a 1v1 against most special threats that either lack recovery and/or get crippled by Toxic/Thunder Wave (Ash Greninja, Offensive Celesteela, Zapdos, Magearna, Magnezone, Zard Y, etc.) is extremely helpful given how dangerous most of those mons are. Doing that while crippling other threats with status and providing stealth rocks makes Chansey a pain to deal with, and unless you're facing fat mons with recovery that are immune to Toxic like Toxapex and Sableye, Chansey will be doing a lot more than just setting up rocks.

I get this, but I'm saying to an NFE like Chansey - Eviolite is of far more value to it than the likes of than (for example) Leftovers to Clef/Pex and others, and being knocked off or TrickScarfed means loosing a lot of otherwise essential bulk to it (other then lefties on Regen mons, which have one of more reliable ways of sustaining themselves anyway).

Don't switch Chansey into a mon that knows Trick and/or Knock Off. Yes it sucks if you somehow lose Eviolite, but it's not the end of the world if it happens.

As for Z moves, it depends on the move being used (Physical like Lando's Z-Fly or Z-Stone Edge, or special like Magearna, Celesteela and Volcarona's Z moves), but typically Chansey should be fine given how it's not switching into physical ones and with the exception of Volcarona being able to use QD to raise it's SpA, Chansey can tank special Z moves.

Another argument for a Chansey rise:

Teams having Z-Moves and Megas discourage teambuilders to integrate Knock Off in to their mons moveset.

Knock Off is an extremely good move being able to remove choice items (Assault Vest and Choice Scarf in particular to prevent some revenge killers from revenge killing or band/specs/life orb to weaken the damage output from opposing offensive threats), and there isn't a to not run it, so that argument doesn't work out. Also, knowing which mon has a z move lets you narrow down the set(s) it could be running, and that can make it easier to handle (unless that threat just wins at that point).

 

[GH[O]ST]

Both points in its favor, both not mentioned by them. Koko gets beat ez by Shuckle, too. And HP Ice is ofc great, probably better over Nature's Madness.


You didn't give any reasons for any of these. Just mentioning that the three megas get an advantage from electric terrain doesn't change anything because that's been true since day 1 lmao, Ultraballz actually pointed out that the recent introduction of Medicham and Mawile works in its favor as they appreciate the switch in. Moreover, Megagross doesn't run thunder punch as often anymore. Part of it is that he just presented his post as an actual argument.

Koko also has to correctly predict what Smeargle will do. It's a 50-50, in the favor of neither. If anything, the safe plays for each are magic coat and taunt, and so it's actually in Smeargle's favor.


I read it. That's not a point in its favor. It's had electric terrain boosting STAB since the first day of release. An argument for rise would be saying shit like "Megagross is running thunder punch more often, and Medicham runs it more and more specifically due to its partnership with Koko."

If I said "CharY hits hard as fuck with Fire Blast due to its insane SpA and Drought and thus should be A+", that's not a good argument. CharY has had a hard hitting Fire Blast since XY. Its power hasn't suddenly changed for its rank to change. An actual argument would be "Due to the lack of strong relevant fire resists in the meta right now that also don't take SE damage from Solar Beam, CharY's switch ins are limited to Chansey, Toxapex, Heatran, and Zygarde. Chansey is run almost exclusively on stall, and stall has decreased in popularity due to the strong stallbreaker sets gaining in popularity as well as the strong breakers like Mawile and Medicham destroying stall. Toxapex is also mostly run on stall, as toxapex offense has decreased in popularity since Phero's ban. Heatran is hit by focus blast and can't do much to CharY regardless. Zygarde can actually switch in, but only a few times, unless it gets time to take advantage of lefties. But Zygarde is running band more and more, which limits its switch ins since it has less bulk investment and no lefties." There's a difference between enumerating a man's qualities that it's had since day 1 and enumerating why the meta has shifted more towards it.

Note: Not advocating for a CharY rise.

You are not comprehending what I wrote correctly.

I said the top 3 megas all benefit from Koko due to pseudo-STAB thunder punch. I am using present tense, aka metagross, medicham, and mawile. medicham and mawile havent even available since day 1 so I dont know where you're coming from with that.

In any case, the lead Koko vs lead smeargle is in Koko's favor. The safe play for smeargle would not be magic coat, but sticky web, due to the fact that not all Kokos run taunt. What happens if the Koko taunts you is you have to sack something and try setting up again. Meanwhile if you magic coat and the Koko attacks you, you can basically kiss getting webs up goodbye, since the Koko user has the momentum advantage with Koko.

 

[robopoke]

Knock Off is an extremely good move being able to remove choice items (Assault Vest and Choice Scarf in particular to prevent some revenge killers from revenge killing or band/specs/life orb to weaken the damage output from opposing offensive threats), and there isn't a to not run it, so that argument doesn't work out. Also, knowing which mon has a z move lets you narrow down the set(s) it could be running, and that can make it easier to handle (unless that threat just wins at that point).

What, how does the argument "Knock Off users are getting rare" not work, just because Knock Off is a good move? Obv it is good but mons like Bisharp, Clef and Thundurus arent used as much compared to ORAS. Also Landot favours HP Ice for Zygarde and opposing Landot instead of getting rid of items. I am not saying switch Chansey into them but a meta with less Knock Off users makes it easier for Chansey to keep its item.

 

[Toshiro46]

What, how does the argument "Knock Off users are getting rare" not work, just because Knock Off is a good move? Obv it is good but mons like Bisharp, Clef and Thundurus arent used as much compared to ORAS. Also Landot favours HP Ice for Zygarde and opposing Landot instead of getting rid of items. I am not saying switch Chansey into them but a meta with less Knock Off users makes it easier for Chansey to keep its item.

Other mons carry knock off. It's super popular for AV tangrowth, and that's one of the best walls rn. Lando doesn't carry knock off as much, that's true, but Mawile does.

Even so, I don't know that anyone should keep Chansey in on Mawile, and Chansey doesn't really care about walling another wall like Tangrowth.

Knock off users are still there, but Chansey doesn't really want to switch into any of them anyway.

 

[Vert]

problem with tapu koko is it is hit and miss in many matchups. often forced to come in and u-turn while accomplishing very little considering. more importantly, it's not a+ level with some of the most consistent pokemon in the tier: tapu lele, zygarde, ash greninja.

i would like to see a cofagrigus raise. this thing is terrifying, wisping its soft checks early game while keeping medicham at bay. late game it's dumb to play around because of its bulk and mummy.

zapdos should rise. lol i agree with a chansey raise. always puzzled me why skarmory is a- but chansey is a subrank lower.

 

[juicyjuice]

Starmie is garbage and should not rise any further. It loses to the most relevant spikers in ferrothorn and greninja (starmie can't spin on it without dying, and just dies if ninja carries dark pulse), can't switch in on any relevant rocker, bar heatran, which again can kill starmie with bloom doom if it actually wants to spin. It's forced to run analytic to not be completely outclassed, so it's still easily worn down between life orb and hazards, not to mention poison if it wants to spin on tspikes users. I guess you could switch starmie in on the setter as it goes for hazards, but that's risky because starmie is so frail and wears itself down so quickly it can't afford to take damage lest it not be able to spin throughout the match.
Basically it really has to predict if it wants to spin and not die and against some setters it can't do both regardless. Also, I'm not sure what play style starmie excels against. On offense it loses to ninja/koko/scarf gar and against balance it can't get past growth/av magearna. The combo of chansey + sableye on stall has it struggling, too. I'd rather use something like assault vest tentacruel because it might have the same problems in some regards like the stall matchup and having to predict, but it can beat greninja and take stupid hits like tapu koko's thunderbolt and mirror coat kill it. Bad predictions aren't as punishing with it too since you have bulk. To be fair, starmie can beat sticky web leads but so can every other hazard remover so I don't think that's much of a niche.

Tldr: just because rapid spin doesn't have a great user right now doesn't mean starmie should rise

EDIT: spelling

 

[Night Train Lane]

I agree with the cofag raise. Its stupid fat and a p good check to some of the more threatening wallbreakers like Medi, Mawile, Metagross. Ghost resists don't exist and sometimes not losing to a late game trick room is unavoidable.

I also agree with Chansey raise. One of the more consistent rockers and walls the best cleaners/breakers in the tier (Mage, ashGren, Autoto Celes, etc.). But doesn't lose as much momentum as one might think due to the threat of status and stoss shaving 100 hp off the switch in.

EDIT: Regarding Starmie guy above says things like Ferro beating it when it should def be running HP Fire rn. He also mentions Sab as a reason to not raise when it's definitely not coming in on a orb analytic hydro pump. It does still lose to Greninja but that's the only setter that it doesn't straight beat 1v1. The thing that makes it the best spinner rn is the fact that nothing spin blocks it. The threat of analytic boosted hydros and greninja-esque coverage and lack of things that spin block it is the reason people are pushing it for a raise.

EDIT #2: Excadrill could probably drop tbh. I'm not seeing this thing anywhere near a threat rn with lando being omnipotent, Celes being amazing, Greninjas running rampant, Tang having a lot of popularity, Zygarde tanking it's hits fairly easily, being a bad spinner in a meta where spinners barely exist. Not to mention sand isnt good rn.

 

[juicyjuice]

EDIT: Regarding Starmie guy above says things like Ferro beating it when it should def be running HP Fire rn. He also mentions Sab as a reason to not raise when it's definitely not coming in on a orb analytic hydro pump. It does still lose to Greninja but that's the only setter that it doesn't straight beat 1v1. The thing that makes it the best spinner rn is the fact that nothing spin blocks it. The threat of analytic boosted hydros and greninja-esque coverage and lack of things that spin block it is the reason people are pushing it for a raise.

Which of hydro/spin/tbolt/beam are you replacing for hp fire? Without tbolt every water type in the tier can handle starmie and the one thing offensive starmie can check defensively, scarf keldeo, it can't reliably beat. Losing beam means you just lose to offensive zygarde and lmao grasses.

Also the scenario with sab is something like this: say you switch starmie in against clefable or something on stall. Are you going to go for hydro, which chansey eats and will just continue to set up rocks if you try to spin after, or will you spin on a potential sab switch in for it to knock you off? Neither are good, and this isn't just a stall issue: do you ice beam the landorus predicting him to stay in, or do you spin predicting him to switch out, die to earthquake, and then let it get off rocks later?

Also if it's a bad spinner (even in your post, you say greninja is everywhere and chansey is a very consistent rocker) and you just want greninja-esque coverage/the ability to hit things hard 80% of the time with hydro why would you not just use greninja

 

[Toshiro46]

Which of hydro/spin/tbolt/beam are you replacing for hp fire? Without tbolt every water type in the tier can handle starmie and the one thing offensive starmie can check defensively, scarf keldeo, it can't reliably beat. Losing beam means you just lose to offensive zygarde and lmao grasses.

Also the scenario with sab is something like this: say you switch starmie in against clefable or something on stall. Are you going to go for hydro, which chansey eats and will just continue to set up rocks if you try to spin after, or will you spin on a potential sab switch in for it to knock you off? Neither are good, and this isn't just a stall issue: do you ice beam the landorus predicting him to stay in, or do you spin predicting him to switch out, die to earthquake, and then let it get off rocks later?

Also if it's a bad spinner (even in your post, you say greninja is everywhere and chansey is a very consistent rocker) and you just want greninja-esque coverage/the ability to hit things hard 80% of the time with hydro why would you not just use greninja

Starmie doesn't have to win against everything. It just has to beat the most hazard setters it can and/or provide the coverage your team is lacking to pack some extra punch.

It's not a bad spinner, it's the best in the tier, and that's why you would use it and not Gren.

 

[UltraBallz]

Starmie doesn't have to win against everything. It just has to beat the most hazard setters it can and/or provide the coverage your team is lacking to pack some extra punch.

It's not a bad spinner, it's the best in the tier, and that's why you would use it and not Gren.

The main problem I have with starmie is in almost every scenario I'd rather just go without hazard control and use Protean Ninja instead. Using both seems very redundant to me, so only way I'd use starmie is if I desperately need hazard removal for something which makes it seem very niche to me. Either way I'm still kind of on the fence with starmie since when I use it it always seems very underwhelming.

Just noting too I'm referring to the orb analytic set as from what I've heard that is the only really viable set right now. I haven't tried using the bulkier Starmie that was pretty common in ORAS.

 

[juicyjuice]

Starmie doesn't have to win against everything. It just has to beat the most hazard setters it can and/or provide the coverage your team is lacking to pack some extra punch.

It's not a bad spinner, it's the best in the tier, and that's why you would use it and not Gren.

I hate to respond to this because discourse over a mon in the C ranks is cancerous but starmie only beats hazard setters 50% of the time. If the setter stays in, generally, starmie is going to die. Usually, the spin is so telegraphed that you don't even need to predict. Even is starmie kills your landorus or whatever you can just force it out by one of the many things it dies to and hazards stay up. It's frailty and poor defensive typing are not what I would personally look for in a hazard romover, so i would personally see it not rise, i guess this is against popular opinion though, so I've said my peace.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

The meta is so hard to handle hazards with in general, there just near never a good choice, You need something that can handle lando, ferrothorn and greninja(or its mix-up) and really it's to much for anything and even a fast taunt what koko or aerodrayl(mega) really can't stomach that non sense if they really only want a single layer up its happening.

Zapdos is really the best at keeping them off right now(skarmory sucks at preventing anything other than taunting ferrothorn) and I've struggleD super hard lately making predictions on when lando comes in and I snipe it for 60/70% with hp ice and they smash through me with Z-rock even with max hp/Def and all I really can think of at this point is reinvested in a Sdf nature(to tank ice beam gerenija) and give it the rock berry.

Starmie could run a wacky bulky goldy locks offensive set with Lefts and bulk mix but idk how it'll live a scarf u turn from lando and dark pulse grenija(worst cases)

Tentacruel is worth switching with starmie that thing is super unpredictable other than having great special bulk

 

[Night Train Lane]

Which of hydro/spin/tbolt/beam are you replacing for hp fire? Without tbolt every water type in the tier can handle starmie and the one thing offensive starmie can check defensively, scarf keldeo, it can't reliably beat. Losing beam means you just lose to offensive zygarde and lmao grasses.

Also the scenario with sab is something like this: say you switch starmie in against clefable or something on stall. Are you going to go for hydro, which chansey eats and will just continue to set up rocks if you try to spin after, or will you spin on a potential sab switch in for it to knock you off? Neither are good, and this isn't just a stall issue: do you ice beam the landorus predicting him to stay in, or do you spin predicting him to switch out, die to earthquake, and then let it get off rocks later?

Also if it's a bad spinner (even in your post, you say greninja is everywhere and chansey is a very consistent rocker) and you just want greninja-esque coverage/the ability to hit things hard 80% of the time with hydro why would you not just use greninja

the set is hydro/spin/hp fire/psychic stab. The only relevant bulky waters are Toxapex, Rotom, and Keldeo. All of which die to psychic coverage. Venusaur (which isnt that good), Amoongus, and physdef Tang cannot switch in, as well. As far as the Chansey / Sableye scenario no one is going into Sableye on Starmie unless you're defensive for some reason. So you either click spin on the Chansey or double into your breaker. Either situation is manageable.

As far as WHY would you use Starmie? Some teams desperately need hazard removal and Starmie gives you that role compression or removal and hard hitter.

Also Idk why people are saying Tenta > Starmie when that loses to more setters than Starmie and can't spin on stall since they're going Sableye every time.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I forgot this one set I fought
Reflect type
Recover
Scald
Rapid spin

Should probably run nature cure to find more switch ins
As a dark water it makes dark pulse rarely 3 hit KO leaving u-turn doing less then hydro pump that also fails
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 160 SpD Starmie: 145-171 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 92+ Def Starmie: 122-144 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

You would lose the speed war but this is kind of designed to switch into status/water/ice and safely spin and fish for burns to ease pressure on teammates but loses to stuff like magetzone, Z-moves, sword dance+rocks, Chansey and set up sweepers or choice specs non sense like gengar