i'd support a+ gengar, especially regarding choice specs set. It's really hard to switch into, as there are not many ghost resistors in the tier, and one of them being greninja, which takes 50% with a naive nature. Even dedicated special pivots, such as celesteela or magearna shoul be aware to be almost full life, taking 65ish from 2 shadow ball (celesteela takes 76, but we have to keep in mind leftovers+protect). Furthermore, is really fast for this metagame: with things such as lopunny and manectric not released yet, the only 2 mons with an higher base speed than 110 are greninja and koko, and both of them can only come in to revengekill, meaning that gengar can threaten also offensive teams and not only bulky builds. He also gets benefit from metagross ban, as tapu lele will shine even more than he already does. With tapu lele shining, gengar will have more often psychic terrain support, being immune to prios like scizor's bullet punch or mawile's sucker punch. So yeah, i'd say that gengar will be a predominant force in this metagame and i agree with the a+ nomination
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Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Gary
- Start date
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Amoonguss A- -> B+
I really have not seen this mon at all in the last two months. In the playoffs for SPL 8, for example, it had exactly zero usage. I can't speak as to its overall usage in March or April because afaik the stats aren't up, but in February it was hovering around the 70th most used (at 1695+ play; overall it was much lower, of course... something like 140th), which is lower than all the rest of the A- mons bar Mew (which has gone from B- to A- in the last month and shot up in usage with Medichamite's release) and Medicham (medichamite was unavailable so). But usage alone isn't enough, though it does indicate that people are shying away from the mon for whatever reason.
Speaking of Medicham, it eats Amoonguss for breakfast. In fact, almost every relevant offensive threat in the tier OHKOS or 2HKOs Amoonguss - Greninja, Lando, Autotomize Celesteela, Lele, Volc, Zygarde (fully invested, but SubCoil sets up on it so either way), Chomp, (Specs) Gengar, Heatran, Mawile, Offensive Scizor, M-Alakazam (and regular for that matter), CharY/X, (Specs, after rocks) Magnezone, Marowak, Medi, Mega Pinsir, and (Zen headbutt) Bulu. These are just from the A and S tiers.
The offensive mons I didn't include from A are Koko, Ash-Gren, Magearna, and Keldeo. But if you wanted a defensive answer for these, why not use AV Tangrowth? Tangrowth has better bulk on both sides, and in a meta full of Landorus, Lele, and Zygarde, arguably a better defensive typing. Yeah, amoonguss checks Magearna and Keldeo (and dazzling gleam Koko) a bit better due to its typing, but that's pretty much it.
Amoonguss can't fulfill its role as a defensive pivot if it can't consistently come in on meta threats. Sure, you could get it in via double switches volt turn and such, but there's so many better options to do that with (all the insanely strong wallbreakers hanging around). Its big selling point over Tang, Spore, is useless if it never gets a chance to use it. It just doesn't seem near as consistent a defensive mon as the 4 stall mons and Mew in A-, and the increased psychic usage from Lele and Medi (and Gren too) really doesn't help it. Nor does it like all the hazards going around, as spikes and stealth rock undercut its bulk even more and add some KOs to its list (2HKOs for A-Gren, Magearna for example). Grass/Poison really just isn't as effective a typing as it once was, as evidenced by Venu's drop from A- to B-. And obviously, there's always Koko (a bit more popular with medicham kicking around) and Fini, whose terrains ruin its day.
Finally, Taunt has recently become a much more popular option for many mons in the effort to combat stall, among other things. Amoonguss *hates* taunt.
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In summary: It can't come in on much in the current meta, and is threatened by a lot. Therefore it can't use spore near as much as it would want to. A secondary Poison typing is kind of a hindrance compared to Tangrowth with the ground and psychic types all about. Psychics have gained a stronger foothold in the meta after Meta's ban both as offensive wallbreakers and defensive answers to those wallbreakers. Increased hazards suck for it, and taunt's increased usage really sucks for it.
I don't think it's belonged in A- for a long time, but the recent increase of psychics has really cemented that belief for me.
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That said, B+ is a good place for it. While it finds difficulty switching in, finding a switch in to it is actually pretty difficult. Not much that can deal with spore/stun spore wants to stay in on it, and spore is just really awful to deal with if you don't have terrain support and/or Tangrowth/some other grass not 4x weak to HP Fire. It also provides a nice middle ground between Toxapex and Tang as a regen user in terms of utility and offensive presence, if inferior to both in a straight up comparison. Being in the same tier as Fini makes sense - both are good defensive mons who are affected by unfavorable meta conditions.
I really have not seen this mon at all in the last two months. In the playoffs for SPL 8, for example, it had exactly zero usage. I can't speak as to its overall usage in March or April because afaik the stats aren't up, but in February it was hovering around the 70th most used (at 1695+ play; overall it was much lower, of course... something like 140th), which is lower than all the rest of the A- mons bar Mew (which has gone from B- to A- in the last month and shot up in usage with Medichamite's release) and Medicham (medichamite was unavailable so). But usage alone isn't enough, though it does indicate that people are shying away from the mon for whatever reason.
Speaking of Medicham, it eats Amoonguss for breakfast. In fact, almost every relevant offensive threat in the tier OHKOS or 2HKOs Amoonguss - Greninja, Lando, Autotomize Celesteela, Lele, Volc, Zygarde (fully invested, but SubCoil sets up on it so either way), Chomp, (Specs) Gengar, Heatran, Mawile, Offensive Scizor, M-Alakazam (and regular for that matter), CharY/X, (Specs, after rocks) Magnezone, Marowak, Medi, Mega Pinsir, and (Zen headbutt) Bulu. These are just from the A and S tiers.
The offensive mons I didn't include from A are Koko, Ash-Gren, Magearna, and Keldeo. But if you wanted a defensive answer for these, why not use AV Tangrowth? Tangrowth has better bulk on both sides, and in a meta full of Landorus, Lele, and Zygarde, arguably a better defensive typing. Yeah, amoonguss checks Magearna and Keldeo (and dazzling gleam Koko) a bit better due to its typing, but that's pretty much it.
Amoonguss can't fulfill its role as a defensive pivot if it can't consistently come in on meta threats. Sure, you could get it in via double switches volt turn and such, but there's so many better options to do that with (all the insanely strong wallbreakers hanging around). Its big selling point over Tang, Spore, is useless if it never gets a chance to use it. It just doesn't seem near as consistent a defensive mon as the 4 stall mons and Mew in A-, and the increased psychic usage from Lele and Medi (and Gren too) really doesn't help it. Nor does it like all the hazards going around, as spikes and stealth rock undercut its bulk even more and add some KOs to its list (2HKOs for A-Gren, Magearna for example). Grass/Poison really just isn't as effective a typing as it once was, as evidenced by Venu's drop from A- to B-. And obviously, there's always Koko (a bit more popular with medicham kicking around) and Fini, whose terrains ruin its day.
Finally, Taunt has recently become a much more popular option for many mons in the effort to combat stall, among other things. Amoonguss *hates* taunt.
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In summary: It can't come in on much in the current meta, and is threatened by a lot. Therefore it can't use spore near as much as it would want to. A secondary Poison typing is kind of a hindrance compared to Tangrowth with the ground and psychic types all about. Psychics have gained a stronger foothold in the meta after Meta's ban both as offensive wallbreakers and defensive answers to those wallbreakers. Increased hazards suck for it, and taunt's increased usage really sucks for it.
I don't think it's belonged in A- for a long time, but the recent increase of psychics has really cemented that belief for me.
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That said, B+ is a good place for it. While it finds difficulty switching in, finding a switch in to it is actually pretty difficult. Not much that can deal with spore/stun spore wants to stay in on it, and spore is just really awful to deal with if you don't have terrain support and/or Tangrowth/some other grass not 4x weak to HP Fire. It also provides a nice middle ground between Toxapex and Tang as a regen user in terms of utility and offensive presence, if inferior to both in a straight up comparison. Being in the same tier as Fini makes sense - both are good defensive mons who are affected by unfavorable meta conditions.
Yeah I agree for sure on Amoonguss. Earlier in the meta this thing definitely seperated itself in some ways from other bulky grasses like Tang but the way the meta has shaped I would never really see using it over an AV growth anymore. Grass/poison is undoubtedly a worse defensive typing right now then pure grass primarily because of super common threats like Zygarde and Lele. And as Toshiro pointed out, what common threats is Amoonguss reliably checking that Tangrowth can't?
Where have you been?
Alright I'm hitting up some nominations that I think are pretty solid to add.
Pinsir A- -> A
The absence of Mega Metagross and the many teams who fail to run reliable Flying-type resists are paying the ultimate price by losing to Mega Pinsir. Even though Mega Pinsir has worked successfully on Webs, it's a pretty good Pokemon that can work on a regular team. It benefits from the usual Defog users and its a big problem for bulkier and even offensive teams to handle. Since a lot of teams love Scarf Keldeo it helps Mega Pinsir since Quick Attack is SE on it and the jazz. You could argue Zapdos being popular helps, but really with Magnezone support there's few issues to running Stone Edge as a filler move.
Charizard Y A- -> A
This Mega is really roasting a lot of teams as well. Though the loss of Metagross means there's more Latios, the addition of using Dugtrio as the plug against Tyranitar / Heatran means that Zard Y is more free to run Hidden Power Ice - which just does enough to Latios since majority don't pack Roost and it also helps a lot against Zygarde. This mon is lowkey very good right now in the tier and, though hazard removal and it being on a cookie cutter build can be bad, the compression is bearable at the moment. By far and wide the superior Zard this gen at the moment - thank Christ.
Ditto Unranked -> C-/C
People knock on Ditto, but it's not too shabby. It warps the fuck out of Baton Pass at times and can take advantage of stall to some extent if it has Choice Scarf removed. It can revenge kill a lot of dangerous threats such as DD Zygarde and can take advantage of teams that may lack reliable answers to some of their used Pokemon (i.e. think of Ditto Impostering opposing Mega Medicham when the team lacks reliable Fighting-resists remaining).
Bummed some replays from a user:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-577736692
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-577731835
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-577734113
I think some things could move up or down as the meta progresses, but I think these mons for now really need some form of attention - the Megas especially.
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Watching the OUPL tour. It's been used once in 3 weeks so far (Unless I missed it when looking over the replays but I don't think I did), and it was on the losing team in that match.
Edit: I did miss one other instance where it was used, but as you can see it was on a joke team and did absolutely nothing: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-285051
Subject 18 had a good post back on page 34 discussing why they didn't believe in a rise back when I nominated it. Not a whole lot has changed in terms of that post, I don't think, besides Megagross's ban and fini's decreased viability.
That said I still think CharY is terrifying and I will always advocate for a rise. I think it's definitely a breaker on par with Mawile. While Mawile has fewer switch ins and better coverage, CharY hits harder (relatively since it's physical vs special) and doesn't suffer from Lando's Intimidate, which is a pretty big deal. It has a favorable match up against every mon in A+/S bar Zygarde (which if you really want, HP Ice is a thing). Both Grens can't OHKO consistently (Ash Gren Hydro does 37% of the time) due to Drought and get OHKOed in return. Lando, Celesteela, Tangrowth, and Lele are outsped (and scarf lele doesn't OHKO) and OHKOed. Volcarona at +1 can't 2HKO with anything bar shattered psyche and gets 2HKOed consistently. Better yet, CharY can switch into some Lando variants (think u turn/EQ/SR/HPIce) and otherwise any of its moves bar SSSS or SE, most Celesteela moves, and most tangrowth moves. It can also switch into non-shattered psyche QDing Volc.
Ditto is a little gimmicky, but it works, as evidenced by the replays given. It's actually one of the better checks to set up sweepers and in general anything that boosts its stats. It should be ranked.
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Well I didn't think I would have to add this because it should be very self-explanatory and common knowledge, but judging by the recent posts being made in this thread, (most of which I've deleted) this needs to be addressed. Any post that breaks this guideline will be deleted, regardless of how many walls of calcs or text are included:
- When nominating a Pokemon, do not merely list its obvious qualities such as stats, typing, movepool, etc. If you think a Pokemon deserves to rise or drop, explain what has changed in the meta to cause such Pokemon to get better or worse.
I can get behind this. I can get behind this a lot. While I don't play it well, there's incredible times where Pinsir tanks a hit and knocks out one or two Pokemon I just need out and nets me a win. It's strong, and flexible enough to handle a lot of 'Mons, whether Return-boosted or not.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-571503641 (In this battle, it nearly wipes out the entire guy's team. While this is more due to a misplay than anything else, it's still something to note.)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-571498617 (At the end, M!Pinsir ends the match for me. Again, the guy didn't play entirely properly, but my team relies on prediction. I started getting good at it, like in this match.)
Not that I disagree with the idea of Mega Pinsir rising, but both of those replays are quite bad. You understate it quite badly when you say your opponent "didn't play entirely properly." If I was on the fence about Mega Pinsir's status, I wouldn't have gained anything from viewing these replays.
Muscle K
Banned deucer.
While I do agree that Pinsir is a great mon, your replays...... are less then stellar (sorry bud, you played fairly well but..)
Those examples are from low ladder battles (eg newer, less experienced players
Colonel M does a good job explaining why Pinsir should move up in viability; describing Pinsir's ability with detail, as well as providing decently high rated replays.
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I have a few replays showcasing Mega Pinsir's positive traits.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-571646810 Cleans late game and survives Banded Zygarde's Outrage.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-572399457 Revenge kills several Pokemon and tanks Mega Medicham's HJK.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-572417385 Destroys a BP team.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-572503359 Makes a comeback after two of my Pokemon are killed by Greninja.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-571646810 Cleans late game and survives Banded Zygarde's Outrage.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-572399457 Revenge kills several Pokemon and tanks Mega Medicham's HJK.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-572417385 Destroys a BP team.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-572503359 Makes a comeback after two of my Pokemon are killed by Greninja.
ash ninja a+->s.
by far and away the most threatening pokemon in the current meta, both whilst using it and facing it. not only does it dictate the shape of teams, requiring a small subset of pokemon to choose from, all of which (fini, av tang, mantine, pex, etc.) are prone to being worn down. it really is stupidly easy to active ash mode right now, with the right support; speaking of which, there has been an influx of spikes ash greninja, which aims to punish all of the passive pokemon that switch in on greninja, either forcing its own way to transformation, or aiding a teammate such as thundurus-i or bisharp in breaking down opposing teams should mantine or fini defog. water shuriken also makes greninja incredibly valuable on any sort of offence or balance team, as lando-t is broken. a means with which to break balance with specs, and check the second biggest threat in the meta is phenomenal. basically, it's really fucking strong and scary and it adds good defensive utility to an offensive team with water shuriken.
tyranitar b+->a-.
both band and defensive rocks are incredible sets that bring so much to the table. band is an incredible balance/wall breaker, with zero real switchins outside of sash dugtrio, meaning that pretty much each time it's and can't be ohkoed, it gets a kill. defensive rocks checks a plethora of pokemon in the current meta, primarily volcarona, but others such as m-alakzam, gengar and charizard-y (chople), mence, zard x and choice-locked lele (pursuit). is honestly a solid rocker thanks to not being incredibly passive. the biggest factor, though, has to be beating volcarona (offering offensive teams a means with which to reliably do this is massive), even for slower paced teams, this is invaluable, also. all in all, mad role compression+ability to check a plethora of mons, i think ttar deserves a rise
here's a replay of them doing good things vs horrendous matchup with a terrible team.
here's a replay of the defog thing working magically.
Sueshidragon
Banned deucer.
There's a couple things I've wanted to mention after looking through this thread for the past couple months.
Zygarde definitely deserves to be S. Thousand Arrows is an amazing move, and outside of Tangrowth, nothing can wall this thing to much degree of success. Anything that might give him grief can easily be worn down by Toxic, and a SubCoil set is devastating and incredibly easy to set up. The presence of prominent Steel types like Heatran and Celesteela and the lesser presence of Ice users has helped Zygarde greatly. I know lots of people above and in the past have made similar arguments, but they're all true- Zygarde is incredible now that he has Thousand Arrows. Metagross and Pheromosa being gone help him greatly, as their Ice coverage isn't a worry anymore. Overall, Zygarde is incredibly versatile and I think deserves a spot next to Greninja and Lando-T.
Salamence from B- to B/B+. Why Salamence isn't higher is something I've never understood. He's an amazing compliment to any hyper offense team, and now that Pheromosa and Megagross with their Ice coverage are gone, Mence has an easier time getting a Dance up. The diminished presence of the Unaware users helps him greatly, preventing them from checking him like they used to. Lando-T's presence as a team staple hurts Mence somewhat due to Intimidate, but otherwise, Mence beats the vast majority of Zygarde and Lando-T variants, as well as other top threats like Greninja and non-Scarf Garchomp. Salamence definitely deserves to be at least one rank above where he is now, but due to his role constriction and general outclassing by Dragonite, Kyurem-B, and Gyarados, he shouldn't be any higher than that.
Amoonguss from A- to B+. I have.. almost never seen Amoonguss this gen. The current meta catering to Psychic types, with everyone and the kitchen sink running Lele, does not make for a kind environment for Amoonguss. Sure, he's a counter to the other three Tapus, but he's torn apart by so many things thanks to his weaknesses. Commonly seen wallbreakers or sweepers like Greninja, Charizard Y, Mega Medicham, Volcarona, my aforementioned Salamence, and more just eat him as a breakfast side dish. Apart from crippling things with Spore and being an annoyance with Leech Seed, Amoonguss has a really hard time fitting itself onto team builds where Pokemon like Mega Venusaur and Toxapex can be far more troublesome. With so much that threatens it and so little that it can effectively do, I can't see Amoonguss having much of a place this generation.
Scolipede from B+ to A-. This thing is a beast. Scolipede is a terrifying Baton Passer, and with the rise of those being seen pretty recently, Scolipede is a must have on any BP team. There's been lots of love for slower, bulkier attackers this generation, and already popular team choices like Bulu, Magearna, Alolan Marowak, and Unbound Hoopa's unban give him loads of viable Pokemon to pass boosts to. Magearna in particular is a prominent Fairy killer and is a popular choice, giving Scolipede a great target for passing. His ease at boosting his speed makes Scolipede definitely a higher tier threat this generation, and especially in a meta where BP teams are rising in usage. Scolipede's up-ranking would represent this shift well, as he has definitely seen more usage.
Yes, I'm aware these are just my opinions, but I'm happy to get them here at last. I'll be editing this if I see it fit.
Zygarde definitely deserves to be S. Thousand Arrows is an amazing move, and outside of Tangrowth, nothing can wall this thing to much degree of success. Anything that might give him grief can easily be worn down by Toxic, and a SubCoil set is devastating and incredibly easy to set up. The presence of prominent Steel types like Heatran and Celesteela and the lesser presence of Ice users has helped Zygarde greatly. I know lots of people above and in the past have made similar arguments, but they're all true- Zygarde is incredible now that he has Thousand Arrows. Metagross and Pheromosa being gone help him greatly, as their Ice coverage isn't a worry anymore. Overall, Zygarde is incredibly versatile and I think deserves a spot next to Greninja and Lando-T.
Salamence from B- to B/B+. Why Salamence isn't higher is something I've never understood. He's an amazing compliment to any hyper offense team, and now that Pheromosa and Megagross with their Ice coverage are gone, Mence has an easier time getting a Dance up. The diminished presence of the Unaware users helps him greatly, preventing them from checking him like they used to. Lando-T's presence as a team staple hurts Mence somewhat due to Intimidate, but otherwise, Mence beats the vast majority of Zygarde and Lando-T variants, as well as other top threats like Greninja and non-Scarf Garchomp. Salamence definitely deserves to be at least one rank above where he is now, but due to his role constriction and general outclassing by Dragonite, Kyurem-B, and Gyarados, he shouldn't be any higher than that.
Amoonguss from A- to B+. I have.. almost never seen Amoonguss this gen. The current meta catering to Psychic types, with everyone and the kitchen sink running Lele, does not make for a kind environment for Amoonguss. Sure, he's a counter to the other three Tapus, but he's torn apart by so many things thanks to his weaknesses. Commonly seen wallbreakers or sweepers like Greninja, Charizard Y, Mega Medicham, Volcarona, my aforementioned Salamence, and more just eat him as a breakfast side dish. Apart from crippling things with Spore and being an annoyance with Leech Seed, Amoonguss has a really hard time fitting itself onto team builds where Pokemon like Mega Venusaur and Toxapex can be far more troublesome. With so much that threatens it and so little that it can effectively do, I can't see Amoonguss having much of a place this generation.
Scolipede from B+ to A-. This thing is a beast. Scolipede is a terrifying Baton Passer, and with the rise of those being seen pretty recently, Scolipede is a must have on any BP team. There's been lots of love for slower, bulkier attackers this generation, and already popular team choices like Bulu, Magearna, Alolan Marowak, and Unbound Hoopa's unban give him loads of viable Pokemon to pass boosts to. Magearna in particular is a prominent Fairy killer and is a popular choice, giving Scolipede a great target for passing. His ease at boosting his speed makes Scolipede definitely a higher tier threat this generation, and especially in a meta where BP teams are rising in usage. Scolipede's up-ranking would represent this shift well, as he has definitely seen more usage.
Yes, I'm aware these are just my opinions, but I'm happy to get them here at last. I'll be editing this if I see it fit.
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I agree with your sentiment for both pokemon, but I don't think those replays did them much service. In the first, volcarona bopped their garchomp on a nice read and blew their team open. Outside of that, they fell apart to thundy. Again, in the second, thundurus just cleaned up, after benefiting from a really dumb defog.
ash ninja a+->s.
by far and away the most threatening pokemon in the current meta, both whilst using it and facing it. not only does it dictate the shape of teams, requiring a small subset of pokemon to choose from, all of which (fini, av tang, mantine, pex, etc.) are prone to being worn down. it really is stupidly easy to active ash mode right now, with the right support; speaking of which, there has been an influx of spikes ash greninja, which aims to punish all of the passive pokemon that switch in on greninja, either forcing its own way to transformation, or aiding a teammate such as thundurus-i or bisharp in breaking down opposing teams should mantine or fini defog. water shuriken also makes greninja incredibly valuable on any sort of offence or balance team, as lando-t is broken. a means with which to break balance with specs, and check the second biggest threat in the meta is phenomenal. basically, it's really fucking strong and scary and it adds good defensive utility to an offensive team with water shuriken.
tyranitar b+->a-.
both band and defensive rocks are incredible sets that bring so much to the table. band is an incredible balance/wall breaker, with zero real switchins outside of sash dugtrio, meaning that pretty much each time it's and can't be ohkoed, it gets a kill. defensive rocks checks a plethora of pokemon in the current meta, primarily volcarona, but others such as m-alakzam, gengar and charizard-y (chople), mence, zard x and choice-locked lele (pursuit). is honestly a solid rocker thanks to not being incredibly passive. the biggest factor, though, has to be beating volcarona (offering offensive teams a means with which to reliably do this is massive), even for slower paced teams, this is invaluable, also. all in all, mad role compression+ability to check a plethora of mons, i think ttar deserves a rise
here's a replay of them doing good things vs horrendous matchup with a terrible team.
here's a replay of the defog thing working magically.
I will say this:. Ash Greninja is massively threatening and can put in serious work each game largely due to spike laying before it transforms. It creates a ton of pressure just because the *threat* of ash Greninja exists, so you can force switches or get free spikes, thereby wittling down checks as your opponent plays to prevent a transform. It's actually a bit like the Mega Zards in early ORAS. Both forms are very strong on their own, but you have to respect the possibility of both until it's revealed. In the case of ninja though, protean just really punishes a bad read, since your fini/toxapex will just disappear to zGunk/extrasensory.
Lando-T is also super good (as always). I've actually seen more than a few imprison sets (hp ice/toxic/EQ/imprison) that just dunk all over the more passive checks that rely on HP coverage or passive damage for it to die. Really really good defensively.
I'd recommend that you don't tell people what the mons in question are capable of, but rather how the metagame changed in their favor. Gary just made a statement about this.
As for these mons, I disagree with Amoonguss drop and Salamence rise simply for the following:
- One of Amoonguss's main jobs is to prevent Greninja-Ash from murdering one of your teammates, among other things such as acting as a Tapu Koko stopper that can heal itself without too much trouble. The reason why this warrants a spot in A- is that these two threats are very prominent in today's meta and, unlike Tangrowth, Amoonguss does not mandate an Assault Vest to handle these two.
- Salamence finds few setup chances thanks to much of the meta forbidding setup (Heatran's Toxic, Landorus-T's HIdden Power Ice/Stone Edge, Tapu Lele's Moonblast), which diminishes one of its main jobs. Dragon isn't as effective as it used to be thanks to the numerous Fairies in the metagame (think Tapu Lele and Tapu Koko).
I noticed this problem in other nominations (despite Gary literally just saying not to do this), so I recommend that you nominate with care. Remember, this is a place where new people go for information, and the last thing they need is confusion.
Also do note that Sueshidragon revamped his/her post, so look at it again if you wish
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You act as if running an assault vest somehow limits Tangrowth, but it really doesn't. AV Tang doesn't need status moves to do its job, but Amoonguss does. AV Tangrowth checks Ash Gren better due to its superior bulk and ability to OHKO it after rocks with giga drain. AV Tang walls Koko better, too, due to reliably 2HKOing it (EQ vs Clear Smog which doesn't reliably 2HKO) and taking less damage from its attacks. Furthermore, Electric terrain doesn't bother Tang in the slightest, while it severely hinders Amoonguss's utility (and main reason to be picked over Tang).
Tang is just better for walling them and most everything else, so arguing no Amoonguss drop based on its inferior ability to wall Koko and A-Gren is not good.
You're missing the point. I wasn't nomming Amoonguss because I wanted to actually defend it (though I can), I did it to demonstrate what a nom should look like.
Sueshidragon
Banned deucer.
I'm gonna give a solid disagree to both of these.
ash ninja a+->s.
by far and away the most threatening pokemon in the current meta, both whilst using it and facing it. not only does it dictate the shape of teams, requiring a small subset of pokemon to choose from, all of which (fini, av tang, mantine, pex, etc.) are prone to being worn down. it really is stupidly easy to active ash mode right now, with the right support; speaking of which, there has been an influx of spikes ash greninja, which aims to punish all of the passive pokemon that switch in on greninja, either forcing its own way to transformation, or aiding a teammate such as thundurus-i or bisharp in breaking down opposing teams should mantine or fini defog. water shuriken also makes greninja incredibly valuable on any sort of offence or balance team, as lando-t is broken. a means with which to break balance with specs, and check the second biggest threat in the meta is phenomenal. basically, it's really fucking strong and scary and it adds good defensive utility to an offensive team with water shuriken.
tyranitar b+->a-.
both band and defensive rocks are incredible sets that bring so much to the table. band is an incredible balance/wall breaker, with zero real switchins outside of sash dugtrio, meaning that pretty much each time it's and can't be ohkoed, it gets a kill. defensive rocks checks a plethora of pokemon in the current meta, primarily volcarona, but others such as m-alakzam, gengar and charizard-y (chople), mence, zard x and choice-locked lele (pursuit). is honestly a solid rocker thanks to not being incredibly passive. the biggest factor, though, has to be beating volcarona (offering offensive teams a means with which to reliably do this is massive), even for slower paced teams, this is invaluable, also. all in all, mad role compression+ability to check a plethora of mons, i think ttar deserves a rise
here's a replay of them doing good things vs horrendous matchup with a terrible team.
here's a replay of the defog thing working magically.
It isn't "stupidly easy" to activate Ash-Greni. Regular Greninja has pretty mundane attacking stats and fails to net kills, even with Specs or LO, that its Protean version easily nails. Greninja is frail, and with powerhouses like Scarf Lele and Mega Medicham appearing all over now, the number of Pokemon that can both be easily fainted by Greninja and can't do a whole lot to it in return is relegated to maybe 1/4 of the tier. Yes, Ash-Greninja itself is incredibly powerful, but it's still just as frail as its regular counterpart, and activating it is a serious pain without proper support. It can't run HP Fire, meaning that common Steel types can easily beat it. Mega Scizor can OHKO Ash-Greni with U-Turn, for example. It's also beaten by every common Scarf user in OU, like Lando-T and Garchomp, as well as Timid Lele. Between the difficulty to activate and how much more unreliable it is than Protean Greninja, I don't think Ash-Greni should be moved.
Tyranitar has many things against it. Had this argument been made in January, I would have whole-heartedly supported it. However, after the releases of Mega Medicham and Mawile, as well as the Metagross ban prompting a rise in the use of Fairies, I don't see Tyranitar as A- worthy. Rocksetter is essentially a slower Lando-T, and CB is a poor man's Garchomp. Even his role as a Psychic switch-in is shaky, given how the tier's prime Psychic types run Focus Blast. Chople Berry can alleviate this to some extent, but it robs Ttar of his item slot. To add insult to injury, Zard Y's ample amounts of usage make it easily be able to come in and force Ttar out. Yes, Ttar can be a Zard Y counter, but the same works in both ways. Tyranitar has so many things that counter him in the current meta that B+ suits him the best.
Alright, so i've never talked on this thread before (hello!), But the recent mega drops have come and i've decided to state what I expect will happen to them in terms of viability starting out since i haven't really seen anybody else talking (I will be talking about what tiers that I think they will be in upon first decision, these are not nominations for M-hera and M-doom)
Mega Heracross will most likely be -A. Fighting/bug/rock coverage hits a decent range of current phys and general tanks like Celesteela, Tangrowth, Zapdos, M-sabyele, Magearna, Clefable, and Landot for at least netrual damage, and can 2HKO a majority of them thanks to its obscene attack stat. That alongside it's respectable bulk and decent defensive typing let M-cross to take hits from most moves they can throw on the switch, and with Megagross gone it recieves both less competition as a mega and another mon it doesnt have to play carefully around, being that a M-gross with zen wins 1-1 (assuming both are healthy). It won't be A or higher out the gate though, due to the issues it's always had like poor speed and a severe flying weakness (though that has diminished greatly this gen with the T-flame nerf), recieving a beating from new and revitalized mons like lele, Volcarona, Mega-Medicham, and Mega-Mawhile, and being walled by those who resist his coverage like toxapex and Mega-Scizor.
Mega Houndoom will most likely be +B/B. Just like Megagross, Houndoom will love the speed change for megas. It has great dual coverage which can roast most tanks and can boost its main attacking stat to obscene levels with NP, which even M-Gross couldn't boast. Combine that with the respectable ability to cripple switch ins with will-o-wisp/taunt, Doom can blow through most defensive mons like toxapex, landot, zygarde, and heatran, thanks to how most mons resist either dark or fire and not both (except tapu fini who has somewhat fallen off), and clean through many weakened teams due to it's great firepower and natural coverage. However, it's shortcomings are hard to mitigate. Many offensive mons like Gren, zygarde, ttar, duggie, and most scarfers give it a hard time, and it's lack of bulk doesnt help it at all. said bulk also comes from it's weakness to all hazards, which are everywhere rn. It also recieves some indirect competition from Volcarona, as it has a better boosting move, coverage (at the cost of will-o-wisp and taunt as utility options) and the standard "items and no mega slot" boon.
Those are just my thoughts, if there's anything else you guys can think of, feel free to add on
Mega Heracross will most likely be -A. Fighting/bug/rock coverage hits a decent range of current phys and general tanks like Celesteela, Tangrowth, Zapdos, M-sabyele, Magearna, Clefable, and Landot for at least netrual damage, and can 2HKO a majority of them thanks to its obscene attack stat. That alongside it's respectable bulk and decent defensive typing let M-cross to take hits from most moves they can throw on the switch, and with Megagross gone it recieves both less competition as a mega and another mon it doesnt have to play carefully around, being that a M-gross with zen wins 1-1 (assuming both are healthy). It won't be A or higher out the gate though, due to the issues it's always had like poor speed and a severe flying weakness (though that has diminished greatly this gen with the T-flame nerf), recieving a beating from new and revitalized mons like lele, Volcarona, Mega-Medicham, and Mega-Mawhile, and being walled by those who resist his coverage like toxapex and Mega-Scizor.
Mega Houndoom will most likely be +B/B. Just like Megagross, Houndoom will love the speed change for megas. It has great dual coverage which can roast most tanks and can boost its main attacking stat to obscene levels with NP, which even M-Gross couldn't boast. Combine that with the respectable ability to cripple switch ins with will-o-wisp/taunt, Doom can blow through most defensive mons like toxapex, landot, zygarde, and heatran, thanks to how most mons resist either dark or fire and not both (except tapu fini who has somewhat fallen off), and clean through many weakened teams due to it's great firepower and natural coverage. However, it's shortcomings are hard to mitigate. Many offensive mons like Gren, zygarde, ttar, duggie, and most scarfers give it a hard time, and it's lack of bulk doesnt help it at all. said bulk also comes from it's weakness to all hazards, which are everywhere rn. It also recieves some indirect competition from Volcarona, as it has a better boosting move, coverage (at the cost of will-o-wisp and taunt as utility options) and the standard "items and no mega slot" boon.
Those are just my thoughts, if there's anything else you guys can think of, feel free to add on
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here about ash-greninja.
You claim that greninja's viability and performance is lowered because "powerhouses" like scarf lele are appearing "all over" now (I've seen nothing of the sort but usage stats are still mixed with mega metagross so i can't cite those rn), but i dont think greninja's frailty in relation to strong threats in the tier have much to do with its viability. Yes, its frail, but its not supposed to take a hit, its not supposed to be switching into or dealing with aforementioned powerhouses unless they're weakened and in kill range.
Additionally, common steel-types such as ferrothorn, scizor, celesteela, magearna etc are all quite heavily pressured by specs dark pulse or hydro pump, even av magearna is taking half from specs hydro from ash-ninja. Sure, its beaten by common scarfers, but thats simply how fast, strong, frail threats like greninja are, not to mention that many of the scarfers will need to be wary of water shuriken if they're weakened or if you still run scarf lando-t.
"Cb is a poor man's garchomp" what man how in the world can you compare choice band tyranitar to a garchomp. How is zard-y getting "ample amounts of usage" (it got 4.068% usage in the most recent usage stats). I agree that a lot of big forces in the meta such as lando-t, tangrowth, magearna, zygarde aren't exactly favorable for tyranitar but its very distinct and not at all outclassed by lando-t or garchomp in what it does.
Finally, zard-y is not a ttar counter.
Sueshidragon
Banned deucer.
I'm trying to address the fact about how Ash-Greninja's viability is hampered by its difficulty to activate Ash form. Yeah, Steel types are pressured by it, but being Specs-locked is troublesome for someone so prone to switch-ins and frailty. Yeah, it's great when it's activated, don't get me wrong, but my primary argument for it's staying in A+ is how difficult it is to activate it.
Also, as for Ttar, Lele appears very frequently, and new Megas in Mawile, Medicham, and the just-released Heracross all can force it out or check it easily. While yeah, Heracross can't be argued just yet, but Medicham and Mawile are seen frequently enough and their attacks are able to tear Ttar open easily.
(Also, as a side note, where are you finding the usage stats for Zard Y in April? Try as I might, I can only find them through March 2017.)
Usage stats have been unattainable since March but it sounds like they are close now to getting stats with a new server or something.
To avoid being a one liner I strongly strongly strongly disagree with Ash-Gren raise. While a very threatening mon, there is no way this is even close to as versitile or consistenly productive as its Protean brother and the rankings should reflect that. Not to mention until it gets its Ash form it is a pretty shitty wallbreaker and while Tapu Fini usage has gone down there still things like Tangrowth on nearly every team that walls you to hell and back making it very difficult to transform. Don't get me wrong I love Ash-Gren and use it a lot but it is not the definition of an S-ranked mon.
Ash Greninja doesn't need to have a perfect matchup in order to accomplish something in a battle. While there are mons that are capable of keeping it from evolving throughout a battle, they either get U-Turned on (most of these answers are passive e.g. Tangrowth Fini Ferro ig) which invites in all of the strong wallbreakers whose rise in usage you've been talking about. The up and coming Spikes set abuses how stupidly annoying Spikes are for most teams and turn lets it pave its own way to break through its defensive answers. Achieving ash form is also not as difficult as you state in the endgame, which is where Ash Gren excels best and all of the pivoting it did early game/the Spikes it got up pay off. A well played Ash Gren is just such a threatening mon you can't just stop from doing its job, wether it is breaking through team with Specs Pumps/Pulses, pivoting into Mega Medicham/Mawile/insert absurd breaker or laying up Spikes and keeping pressure because you can't risk staying in vs it and giving it free ash form
"A well played Ash Gren is just such a threatening mon you can't just stop..."
This argument, I think is odd. Well played anything is unstoppable. Well played Mega Beedrill is unstoppable. Well played Mega Lopunny is unstoppable. Well played Mega Aerodactyl is unstoppable.
Better not to say "if well played, then is unstoppable." Better to say what factors in metagame help it become "well played."
DId not say in post how trends in metagame helped Greninja-Ash become "well-played." Merely stated what Greninja-Ash did (U-turning, getting up Spikes, etc.)
Gary's new rule forbids merely summarizing what a mon does, but rather to state what changes in metagame has benefited mon.
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