Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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Leo

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"A well played Ash Gren is just such a threatening mon you can't just stop..."

This argument, I think is odd. Well played anything is unstoppable. Well played Mega Beedrill is unstoppable. Well played Mega Lopunny is unstoppable. Well played Mega Aerodactyl is unstoppable.

Better not to say "if well played, then is unstoppable." Better to say what factors in metagame help it become "well played."

DId not say in post how trends in metagame helped Greninja-Ash become "well-played." Merely stated what Greninja-Ash did (U-turning, getting up Spikes, etc.)
What do you mean with "to become well played" like what lol. And if you feel the need to tackle a specific argument in my post at least take the time to read the whole sentence. What I wrote is "you can't just stop from doing its job" not that it becomes unstoppable, neither would any of the examples you listed (Mega Lop hype I guess?) fit that description. I think I made it pretty clear, it either breaks stuff or pivots into another breaker or sets Spikes to wear down its own checks. What Metagame trends help it? Decline in usage of Scizor due to Metagross' ban (I'm not implying it got worse, there's just one less reason to use it over let's say Mawile) means even less hazard control than before, coupled with the rise of Spikes and decline of Tapu Fini gives it an edge over offensive teams. The fact that we're getting more and more Megas that take advantage of the momentum provided by U-Turn variants is also great, stuff like Medicham enjoys being on the field vs Tangrowth or Magearna for free hits. It's just really consistent at doing its job and provides a lot of support to teams: a breaker, either a pivot or a Spikes setter, a late game cleaner, a check to dd Lando-T+a strong af prio move in shuriken. Most of this has already been said so idk why you want me to post it again, my post was just a response to someone else's post so I tried not to be too repetitive

edit@below: ?
 
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What do you mean with "to become well played" like what lol. And if you feel the need to tackle a specific argument in my post at least take the time to read the whole sentence. What I wrote is "you can't just stop from doing its job" not that it becomes unstoppable, neither would any of the examples you listed (Mega Lop hype I guess?) fit that description. I think I made it pretty clear, it either breaks stuff or pivots into another breaker or sets Spikes to wear down its own checks. What Metagame trends help it? Decline in usage of Scizor due to Metagross' ban (I'm not implying it got worse, there's just one less reason to use it over let's say Mawile) means even less hazard control than before, coupled with the rise of Spikes and decline of Tapu Fini gives it an edge over offensive teams. The fact that we're getting more and more Megas that take advantage of the momentum provided by U-Turn variants is also great, stuff like Medicham enjoys being on the field vs Tangrowth or Magearna for free hits.
Missed point completely.

I said is better if posts discuss metagame trends. Not merely summarize what mon does. Everything else was secondary.

If metagame trends discussed instead, would be no problem.

EDIT: If post either either repeats information previously stated or does not contribute new information, is better not to post at all.
 
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The Loog Noog

Banned deucer.
for a rise

I wanted to point out that Latios should be considered for a possible rise because of its features as both a breaker and some common metea trends. its a lot more underrated than people think. Latios can check the newly released Mega Heracross, which is valuable as Hera is most likely going to be a huge threat to offensive teams with its insane attack enabling it to take out common glue mons for offensive teams. Aside from the release of Heracross, one of Latios's most common offensive checks in Mega Metagross has recently been banned, which not only means that Latios will have more offensive freedom, but it will also lead to an increasae in Tapu Lele usage, resulting in common Latios answers to be pressured by Lele and therefore making it easier for Lati to break. Moving away from recent metagame shifts, I want to focus on some features that Latios has as a breaker, particularly on sets that have gained a little bit of shine lately. While AV Magearna is a complete bitch and is very annoying to deal with as a Specs Latios user, Latios has the ability to muscle past virtually every other one of its common answers by virtue of Z moves and coverage, with it having Gigavolt Havoc to deal with Specially Defensive Celesteela and slightly weakened Heatran as well as HP Fire to hit Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor among many other options. Aside from being able to break through normal defensive answers with its movepool and Z Crystal sets, Latios can run a Choice Specs set to not only hit like a truck vs offense, but also cripple common switch ins, such as Chansey by tricking them a Choice Specs, rendering them incapable of performing their job effectively and opening the door for teammates. Similarly to how the Choice Specs set stops defensive mons, the Choice Scarf set can be used to cripple setup sweepers such as Volcarona (Charti) and Zygarde. I'm not saying that Latios is a top of the meta mon by any means, but it is better than belonging in the B rank.
  • I've been trying to write up this post for a couple days, but I've been super busy with some end of senior year of HS stuff.
  • I hope I did a better job using metagame trends in my argument as opposed to just listing out the mon's general traits like one of the moderators said to earlier in the thread.
  • Please give me feedback as I'm still a very new poster and am always looking to improve :]
 
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Deleted User 229847

Banned deucer.
C+ --> B-
Kind of disappointing this is below mons like Mantine & Fini, both of which are far more inconsistent @ removing hazards by virtue of their poor speed or just rockers being able to pressure them easily. I find Starmie pretty cool & reliable rn since it has really good matchups vs nearly every rocker in the tier with just Water+Fire coverage (Land, Ferro, Tran) specifically Heatran as it appreciates the noticeable decrease in Bloom Doom sets
I honestly disagree with that. Even though there are almost 0 ghosts in the tier, calling fini more inconsistent at removing hazards is simply wrong. I don't know about mantine though, you may be right about him. The only thing i can think of is that fini is more exposed to chip damage because it has no recovery, but that doesn't mean that defogging with him isn't consistent enough.

Also I don't think that having poor speed decreases the consistency of the defog. Pressuring with rocks is a good argument but i would use it just for mantine since 25% is a lot of damage.

To clarify: i'm not against your nomination, i just find this argument to be flawed.
 
C+ --> B-
Kind of disappointing this is below mons like Mantine & Fini, both of which are far more inconsistent @ removing hazards by virtue of their poor speed or just rockers being able to pressure them easily. I find Starmie pretty cool & reliable rn since it has really good matchups vs nearly every rocker in the tier with just Water+Fire coverage (Land, Ferro, Tran) specifically Heatran as it appreciates the noticeable decrease in Bloom Doom sets

Starmie should mainly move up though based on the merit of its Water Z set, as that makes it much more consistent at its job. As well as more threatening;
I have to disagree with raising Starmie at all. While you do make a good point about how it has a good matchup against most of the usable Stealth Rockers in the tier and how it has a very nice speed tier, Tapu Fini is just an overall better Pokemon for one reason, role compression. Tapu Fini is able to act as both a Defogger and a blanket check to most of the dangerous Pokemon in the tier. Zard-X, Greninja, Tapu Lele, Zygarde, Lando-T, Mega Zam, Mega Medi, and Volcarona (to a slight degree I admit) are all checked by this one Pokemon, Tapu Fini. Starmie loses to Zard-X and Volc if they gets up a DD or QD, is outsped by Gren and Scarf Lele, and straight up dies to Specs Lele and Mega Zam, and is unable to switch into Mega Medi or offensive Lando-T. Tapu Fini is able to act as a hard check, and sometimes a counter, to most of the threatening Pokemon in the metagame, and Starmie just can't compete with that ability. Yes, it does have a few favorable matchups, but it cannot directly switch in to create those matchups. With the calcs you gave, Starmie has an incredibly hard time switching into each of those Pokemon, with the exception of a few (Celesteela and Jirachi for example), and struggles to pick up the KOs. With offensive teams, Starmie may be a better option due to the more offensive presence, but in general, Tapu Fini should be used over Starmie.
 

Martin

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Honestly I think that its status as the best spinner in the tier is a big thing that Starmie has going for it (especially in a meta where hazard stack is a good as it is and, as such, clearing from your side whilst preserving your own hazards is really huge), and as far as consistency with regards to actually clearing hazards goes it's actually really solid. Having the ability to beat the two common Ghost-types (Alolan Wak and Gengar) with its STABs+speed tier whilst also punishing Sab SIs with its offensive set is honestly really big for it; its offensive set beats a large number of common hazard setters (Lando loses to Ice Beam/Pump, Chomp loses to Beam, Ferro loses to HP Fire, Wak drops to Pump, Tran drops to Pump, Skarm drops to Pump or TBolt, Mamo drops to Pump etc.) whereas its bulky set poses a threat to its fair share of threats too, with it checking the single best scarfer in the tier (Keldeo), being able to pressure common SIs like Ferro with Scald, being generally pretty difficult for balance to prevent clearing its hazards consistently etc. and just being generally really consistent despite the omnipresence (and omnipotence) of Greninja. I've just been using it and haven't really been disappointed at all.
 
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Indigo Plateau

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I have to disagree with raising Starmie at all. While you do make a good point about how it has a good matchup against most of the usable Stealth Rockers in the tier and how it has a very nice speed tier, Tapu Fini is just an overall better Pokemon for one reason, role compression. Tapu Fini is able to act as both a Defogger and a blanket check to most of the dangerous Pokemon in the tier. Zard-X, Greninja, Tapu Lele, Zygarde, Lando-T, Mega Zam, Mega Medi, and Volcarona (to a slight degree I admit) are all checked by this one Pokemon, Tapu Fini. Starmie loses to Zard-X and Volc if they gets up a DD or QD, is outsped by Gren and Scarf Lele, and straight up dies to Specs Lele and Mega Zam, and is unable to switch into Mega Medi or offensive Lando-T. Tapu Fini is able to act as a hard check, and sometimes a counter, to most of the threatening Pokemon in the metagame, and Starmie just can't compete with that ability. Yes, it does have a few favorable matchups, but it cannot directly switch in to create those matchups. With the calcs you gave, Starmie has an incredibly hard time switching into each of those Pokemon, with the exception of a few (Celesteela and Jirachi for example), and struggles to pick up the KOs. With offensive teams, Starmie may be a better option due to the more offensive presence, but in general, Tapu Fini should be used over Starmie.
Although Tapu Fini does have better role compression and typing, it's also ranked higher than Starmie at B+. Your points against Starmie almost all apply to Tapu Fini as well. Tapu Fini cannot handle Protean Ninja, Zard-X has declined in usage and isn't very common, also loses to Volc after a QD, not sure what the popular Lele set is now but it can still only switch into it once and then is within range of getting 2hko'd (I believe), especially if specs, Mega Zam does a ton to it, and it cannot switch into either Mega Medi or offensive Lando-T.

You're also failing to see how Starmie and Tapu Fini differ. Tapu Fini is, like you mentioned, a great blanket check to a lot of threats in the meta. However, meta trends have been very unfavorable towards it as it lacks recovery and things are hitting harder now - Mega Medi, Mega Maw, CB Zygarde, the new Mega Heracross (bullet seed is niche, but rock blast does a decent amount and can actually ohko after rocks at +2 - again, not sure what set people are running) - Gengar doesn't have to run scarf now, Zapdos, etc... Granted, Starmie cannot switch into these, but it indeed can pressure a vast majority of the metagame and analytic hits hard as hell. This includes a lot of common defensive backbones that many teams rely. The whole point of Starmie is to have an offensive spinner who can apply pressure to hazard setters and has better offensive synergy with offensive teams. It was also only nommed for B-, still two subranks below Tapu Fini. Not to mention that Starmie, depending on the team, can also fill a variety of holes that you want it to due to its expansive movepool - Tapu Fini's set is almost always pretty much the same, and it lacks reliable recovery to keep up with all the hazards you'd want it to defog on. Only once have I seen (and lost) to a CM Fini high ladder during suspect test.

Due to this, I support a rise for Starmie. I'm typing this during class so I apologize for any blatant mistakes.

EDIT: Also do people just think bold Clef isn't a thing anymore? I get Tangrowth is a better mon overall due to AV and whatnot but Clef hasn't been letting me down and still checks any version of Zygarde so not Tangrowth isn't the ONLY Zygarde counter people lol
 
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Martin

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While I generally agree with raising Starmie because it's the best spinner in the tier, there's quite a few inaccuracies in this post I want to address. You completely neglected to mention Mimikyu when talking about Ghost-types, which is a really big mistake considering that it's one of the cornerstones of Sticky Web offense, which has been really good for a while now. Mimikyu is a bit of a tricky matchup for Starmie because Starmie literally has no shot of beating Mimikyu 1v1 and only needs to get to ~60% HP (not to hard considering that the best set is life orb+has to switch into hazards). Also, you forgot to mention Sableye, who can be really annoying for Starmie to deal with as it can knock off Starmie's Life Orb and completely shut down defensive variants. Perhaps changing the wording from "the two common ghost-types" to just "two common ghost-types" would be more accurate here. Additionally, you called Keldeo the single best scarfer in the tier when Garchomp is an insanely valuable scarfer between its ability to check arguably the most dangerous setup sweeper in the tier in Volcarona as well as doing a way better job checking Tapu Koko, especially with the influx of stallbreaker sets that lack HP Ice these days. Aside from what it checks, CS Garchomp is also better at generally revenge killing mons as Outrage/Earthquake are a lot more reliable when it comes to landing KOs than Hydro Pump/Secret Sword due to both base power and accuracy. Obviously Keldeo is a fine scarfer, being able to check threats like Ash Greninja that are normally a pain for offense to deal with, but you can't just completely discount Garchomp when talking about Scarfers. I'm pretty sure that calling Greninja omnipotent was just a joke so I'll let that slide, but when making statements regarding something that you want to rise, please fact check to make you you aren't forgetting important stuff please.
Omission and inaccuracy are not the same thing; don't imply that they are.

I didn't mention Mimikyu because I didn't feel the need to; of course sticky web offense is something that it is common on, but webs offense generally doesn't provide enough opportunities to remove hazards anyway, and I'd argue that Mimi isn't even the biggest threat to Starmie there so much as the webs themselves, which cut its speed down and put it out of range of actually checking anything on the team at all, whereas off of webs, Mimi isn't particularly common. Also I did mention Sableye (read: "whilst also punishing Sab SIs with its offensive set"). Especially nowadays whith Sab tending to run max HP/Def bold to better check Mega Medicham, it doesn't actually really switch into the LO set very consistently at all (if it comes in on Hydro, it drops to the second one assuming it hasn't taken any damage prior). While admittedly I had "the" in there as a leftover from when I read over and made modifications to the post before posting which I forgot to remove (and calling me out on it is a knitpick at best), it was also in part because I was referring to the two which aren't near-exclusively used on a single type of build (Sab on stall, Mimi on webs HO).

As for the ScarfChomp point, my reason for calling it "the single best scarfer in the tier" is because it is the single best scarfer in the tier. I always want to use Keldeo in my Scarf slot, I usually do use Keldeo in my scarf slot, and if I don't it's always out of necessity due to team structure rather than because I think other ones do the job better. ScarfChomp isn't even exactly bad (and I never implied it was), but your argument regarding it doesn't address how it's been dropping off a lot in the past few months due to the fact that it really struggles with being locked into either of its STABs in this meta due to them both being taken advantage of by exceptionally dangerous Pokemon like Lando-T, Tapu Lele etc. It's all well and good threatening Tapu Koko, but it doesn't change the fac that it doesn't clean up consistently compared to Keld, it doesn't help with Volc in a way that SEdge Keld (the best variant ATM) wouldn't (barring Charti variants (and even then you can't afford to run Rock Slide if you want to beat those consistently)), and most of the time you would want to use Keld (or even Terrak, to a lesser extent) over it as your scarfer. Even if you take that out of the picture though, I didn't mention other scarfers there because the point wasn't even supposed to address scarfers as a whole: just that it helps keep the most common and effective one in check (which was the argument I was making), and being able to use any of its common locks for a free spin (or to take pressure off of things that it comes in to RK) is just generally really big as a result.
 

Sueshidragon

Banned deucer.
Honestly I think that its status as the best spinner in the tier is a big thing that Starmie has going for it (especially in a meta where hazard stack is a good as it is and, as such, clearing from your side whilst preserving your own hazards is really huge), and as far as consistency with regards to actually clearing hazards goes it's actually really solid. Having the ability to beat the two common Ghost-types (Alolan Wak and Gengar) with its STABs+speed tier whilst also punishing Sab SIs with its offensive set is honestly really big for it; its offensive set beats a large number of common hazard setters (Lando loses to Ice Beam/Pump, Chomp loses to Beam, Ferro loses to HP Fire, Wak drops to Pump, Tran drops to Pump, Skarm drops to Pump or TBolt, Mamo drops to Pump etc.) whereas its bulky set poses a threat to its fair share of threats too, with it checking the single best scarfer in the tier (Keldeo), being able to pressure common SIs like Ferro with Scald, being generally pretty difficult for balance to prevent clearing its hazards consistently etc. and just being generally really consistent despite the omnipresence (and omnipotence) of Greninja. I've just been using it and haven't really been disappointed at all.
I'm not sure Starmie really merits a rise. As a hazard remover, it's really hard to justify using over Fini or even Excadrill, who doesn't lose to as many things more commonly seen, like Koko and Mawile. As for Fini, it's bulk is far superior and it's got more utility that better pressures things like Zygarde, Garchomp, and Magearna. Starmie can't hit as hard as Excadrill can, and why would you want to use an offensive Starmie since Greninja isn't Ubers anymore? Protean Greninja can do Starmie's job so much better, and while yes, a hazard remover with recovery is great, but Skarmory and Zapdos are vastly superior for team builds that don't try to stack hazards. Both are better at taking hits (not for special, in Skarm's case), and Skarmory dead walls Landorus, something valuable for any team that Starmie just can't do, since they usually have Knock and U-Turn.
 
I'm not really understanding all the Starmie hate. The arguments implied for why it shouldn't rise are all half-baked at best and the way of thinking for them are simply illogical. You can't really sit here and say "Oh Starmie can't raise because Tapu Fini does its job better" when Fini and Starmie aren't really comparable in the least. The first and most crucial difference in this discussion is the fact Starmie has Rapid Spin, while Tapu Fini has Defog. The difference between these two forms of hazard removal is tremendous considering how excellent Spikes are right now. A hazard remover that doesn't remove your own Spikes is absolutely huge and Tapu Fini will never be able to attest to such a feat

I also don't understand these unjust comparisons like Tapu Fini having superior bulk to Starmie. Of course it has much better bulk but you guys aren't getting that Starmie is an offensive mon, and they usually aren't going to want to be taking hits anyway. In retaliation, Fini doesn't hit anywhere near as Starmie feasibly can and that is what makes it more valuable than Fini on offensive builds, it also matches well against so much of the meta whereas Fini is struggling a lot since in practice it isn't consistently checking what its supposed to be able to check because it doesn't have any recovery, and to rub salt in the wound (although I don't use the set often) Defensive Starmie does have recovery so it can actually consistently check what it does and utilize Natural Cure to mitigate status.

I also never grasped to this idea of why users think using Starmie means you can't use Greninja or that you shouldn't use Starmie if you can use Greninja when you can just use both (this is an example of hazard removal that preserves Spikes comes into play) to good effect. While they have similar coverage, speed, power they can do completely different things altogether. So overall, Starmie is just a lot more consistent at removing hazards than Tapu Fini is since Fini just loses to about every hazard remover in the tier unlike Starmie, while also having the super valuable utility in preserving your own hazards, it also has an insanely better matchup against every hazard setter in the tier so it can keep hazards off the field. It's just nearly impossible to imply that Starmie shouldn't rise when everything seems to be going in its favor. So a rise is definitely plausible at this point.
 
I agree with everything he said ^^

I also don't get why people don't want ash to be S just because Prot is. The disparity between the two isn't so large that they can't be in the same rank. They ride off of each others overbearing nature in play forcing what is pretty much guess work when you run into one. (Although you can usually tell by team composition. Such as Medi + Gren + Koko is always gonna be Ash.) While counterplay for protean comes from pivoting around its moves, ash leaves you with a very small amount of dedicated switch ins that are punished heavily in this meta right now. Such as spiking on Tang and Ferro as they come in reducing the overall substainability they have in the match, forcing Fini to defog, reducing the amount of times keldeo can check, or if uturn > spike getting the more punishing wallbreakers like Medicham, Mawile etc in for free. Having water shuriken is also a big plus.
 
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Gonna make some noms

C+ --> B-
Kind of disappointing this is below mons like Mantine & Fini, both of which are far more inconsistent @ removing hazards by virtue of their poor speed or just rockers being able to pressure them easily. I find Starmie pretty cool & reliable rn since it has really good matchups vs nearly every rocker in the tier with just Water+Fire coverage (Land, Ferro, Tran) specifically Heatran as it appreciates the noticeable decrease in Bloom Doom sets

Starmie should mainly move up though based on the merit of its Water Z set, as that makes it much more consistent at its job. As well as more threatening;

Calcs+game showcasing

252 SpA Analytic Starmie Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 234-276 (58.7 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Starmie Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele: 223-264 (79.3 - 93.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Analytic Starmie Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 193-228 (53.1 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Analytic Starmie Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 220-260 (62.5 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(Still does alot w/ no Orb)
252 SpA Starmie Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 276-325 (72 - 84.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Analytic Starmie Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 242-285 (84.9 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Starmie Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 338-398 (93.6 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Starmie Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 338-398 (98.8 - 116.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Analytic Starmie Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 237-280 (65.6 - 77.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Analytic Starmie Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 228+ SpD Jirachi: 240-283 (59.5 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-576722258 <-- Starmie was able to apply some pressure to my opponent's team by breaking his main Flying resist, allowing Pinsir to come through


Starmie not taking unecessary Orb damage and being able to nuke usual checks actually makes a huge difference, as that means it's able to stay around longer (better Keld check, Heatran check etc) . Holding a Z item also means hes way less vulnerable to Knock Off from Tangrowth, Mew, Sableye & Torn. Also benefits greatly from Gengar transitioning from Scarf to Specs sets, meaning it can never attempt to spinblock so Starmie doesn't have a shaky match up vs that anymore. You really only need Psychic / T-Bolt+Hp Fire, non Orb Beam isn't doing much to Tangrowth. In general just lack of switch ins, very usable Speed tier, and lack of mons to prevent it from doing it's job make Starmie quite a reliable spinner and should move up a rank atleast

B+ --> A-

This placement is also weird. I understand there is more of an influx of Fairy types this gen but that still doesn't stop Latios from positively contributing to a team, whether it be breaking something with a Z move, crippling an important member of a Stall / Balance via Trick or getting hazards out of the way. Os has more freedom with the lack of Pursuit (Metagross ban = one less mon to punish it & Tar / Muk are seen here and there but aren't extremely prevalent, especially Muk). Being a Psychic type Defogger makes it one of the best Toxapex counters unless you get hit by a stray Toxic and of course has great defensive utility vs mons like Keldeo / Volcarona / Zapdos / Koko / Tangrowth / Bulu (Tangrowth moreso if you're packing a Z move letting you tank Knock Offs repeatedly) The rising popularity of non-Z move Volcarona means Scarf is a more reliable check to it, being able to cripple it for the entirety of the game. Calm Mind is also a pretty big threat to certain Balances in the mid-late game, albeit not as easy to fit on teams

Dragon STAB is absolutely not mandatory unless you're either Choiced or CM, meaning Lati has space to run better moves like Hp Fire on Defog sets. The majority of Fairies that can even switch into it bar Clef don't have reliable recovery (Ie; Lele, Mawile, Magearna) so Latios can just chip them constantly and they'll lose overtime. Not to mention Clef gets KO'd by Psychic+Shattered Psyche

C+ --> B- or B

Mega Aero definitely doesn't deserve to be lower than the likes of Excadrill, Thundurus, Mega Gyara, Mega Venusaur and Porygon-Z, all of which have many inherent problems compared to Aero. For one, similar to Mega Alakazam, Aero's extremely high natural speed means Offense has to rely on things like Scarfers or Scizor to check it; the majority of which can't switch in very safely or fail to Ohko (Garchomp, Lele, Latios). The standard Ground+Steel+Tangrowth archtypes actually get murked by this thing with Ice+Fire Fang alone, probably Aero's best set in my experience

Alot of trends are going in Aerodactyl's favor surprisingly, again with the absence of Metagross thats one less mon around to punish it with either Bullet Punch or Pursuit. Metagross gone means Scizor has less reason to be used. Less Mega Sciz being used means a rise in more Megas for Aero to abuse such as Medicham, Heracross. Thus an even bigger surge in other good Pokemon that abuse these such as Pinsir, Zard Y & Tornadus, all of which Aerodactyl counters to an extent funnily enough, mainly if it has Roost. I'd imagine Gyara is still a good Pokemon but it is being seen a bit less, meaning you have the option to run Adamant which solves Aero's lack of usefulness vs Balance / Stall to an extent and helps get alot of kills that it normally wouldn't

252+ Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 256-303 (89.8 - 106.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 304-360 (95.2 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 204-242 (51.2 - 60.8%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 172-204 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 232-274 (82.5 - 97.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 360-424 (100.8 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 177-208 (45.8 - 53.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 186-220 (51.2 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Scizor-Mega: 264-312 (76.9 - 90.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 211-250 (75 - 88.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos: 300-354 (78.3 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye-Mega: 139-165 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 210-248 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 252-298 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Rotom-Wash: 127-151 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Stone Edge vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 169-201 (46.8 - 55.6%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO


That's all friends [:
Gonna piggyback on the mega aero nomination, the absence of megagross means that there's one less check to it, less competition for a mega slot as well. Even though the rise of mega medicham means that bulky psychics such as mew, reuniclus, and slowbro are gaining traction, mega aero still remains a great threat to offensive teams and bulky offensive teams alike. I've found that stone edge/aerial ace/aqua tail/fire fang and stone edge/aerial ace/earthquake/pursuit are the most optimal sets in the current meta. The pursuit support aero provides in trapping th9ng like gengar(which is very threatening atm), alolan wak, mega medi, latios, mega zam, volcarona(watch out for flame body tho), zard y, and tornadus-t is invaluable, not to mention that mega aero doesn't require that much chip damage against offensive and bulky offensive teams to clean up. Also, yes, it can afford to run an adamant nature given that gyarados(mega) aren't as threatening as they used to be, but a jolly nature is definitely usable if these threats greatly hinder your team at +1. It should be notable that mega aero does not need earthquake at times, as aqua tail and fire fang hits most targets which earthquake hits nearly as hard, if not harder(nega scizor, ferrothorn).
252+ Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 274-324 (84.8 - 100.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 211-250 (75 - 88.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Pursuit(80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 154-182 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 154-182 (40.3 - 47.6%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-578940973 Although I played a bit recklessly at the beginning of the match,and my opponent kept his zygarde in on my mega aero, this shows how mega aero's matchup against offensive teams(towards the end of the match)really places pressure on the opponent by having its teammates weaken the appropriate checks enough for mega aero to clean up.
 
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Yoshi

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
to A- Rank.

It has to be done. This thing is very prominent in today's metagame, literally being the Pokemon that is run on every team of the most popular play style in the meta. While yes, it is only ran on Baton Pass, (that's right, I said it), it could also have some form of SD niche. But the big point is: Baton Pass. Yes, it has got this far already just because of the notorious play style, but very recently, it has shot up in usage. While Scolipede may not be the best Pokemon in existence, I'm nomming this to A- due to the fact that it is one of the most prominent Pokemon in the current SM meta game. Only reason to disagree (I feel) is that Baton Pass is cancer.
 

Sueshidragon

Banned deucer.
I also never grasped to this idea of why users think using Starmie means you can't use Greninja or that you shouldn't use Starmie if you can use Greninja when you can just use both (this is an example of hazard removal that preserves Spikes comes into play) to good effect. While they have similar coverage, speed, power they can do completely different things altogether. So overall, Starmie is just a lot more consistent at removing hazards than Tapu Fini is since Fini just loses to about every hazard remover in the tier unlike Starmie, while also having the super valuable utility in preserving your own hazards, it also has an insanely better matchup against every hazard setter in the tier so it can keep hazards off the field. It's just nearly impossible to imply that Starmie shouldn't rise when everything seems to be going in its favor. So a rise is definitely plausible at this point.
Using both Greninja and Starmie is a terrible idea for a lot of reasons. They have fairly bad synergy together, being two fast yet frail Water types who both lose to Tapu Koko, someone really commonly seen nowadays. While yeah, the whole thing of Spikes laying and Starmie's spinning is great and all, I again raise you Excadrill as the better spinner. He and Greninja have amazing type synergy together, as Excadrill beats the ever-omnipresent Tapus with ease. Excadrill hits harder than Starmie can hope for and does a far better job of handling most things that threaten Greninja (The aforementioned Tapus, a great matchup vs Magearna, Gengar, and Mega Mawile/Scizor, as well as not being forced out by Ferrothorn and avoiding the OHKO from Specs Serperior's Leaf Storm.) While yes, Serperior makes meat of Exca and Scizor will eventually win a setup war, Exca handles these two much better than Starmie, who dead loses to the former's Lead Storm and the latter's U-Turn. Starmie is great in its own right, but Excadrill has better synergy for teams utilizing Greninja and Fini's Defogging is superior for teams that don't. Also, as for Starmie beating every hazard remover in the tier, that's a dead ass lie, and Zapdos, the highest ranked hazard remover, says so.
 
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Leo

after hours
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Using both Greninja and Starmie is a terrible idea for a lot of reasons. They have fairly bad synergy together, being two fast yet frail Water types who both lose to Tapu Koko, someone really commonly seen nowadays. While yeah, the whole thing of Spikes laying and Starmie's spinning is great and all, I again raise you Excadrill as the better spinner. He and Greninja have amazing type synergy together, as Excadrill beats the ever-omnipresent Tapus with ease. Excadrill hits harder than Starmie can hope for and does a far better job of handling most things that threaten Greninja (The aforementioned Tapus, a great matchup vs Magearna, Gengar, and Mega Mawile/Scizor, as well as not being forced out by Ferrothorn and avoiding the OHKO from Specs Serperior's Leaf Storm.) While yes, Serperior makes meat of Exca and Scizor will eventually win a setup war, Exca handles these two much better than Starmie, who dead loses to the former's Lead Storm and the latter's U-Turn. Starmie is great in its own right, but Excadrill has better synergy for teams utilizing Greninja and Fini's Defogging is superior for teams that don't. Also, as for Starmie beating every hazard remover in the tier, that's a dead ass lie, and Zapdos, the highest ranked hazard remover, says so.
How is Excadrill a better spinner when it literally loses to every relevant hazard setter in the tier? Unlike Starmie, Excadrill fails to keep hazards off the field in front of the likes of Landorus-T, Ferrothorn (you don't beat it unless you run SD Spin lol idk why you think you do), Mew (best case scenario you sack Excadrill to keep rocks) Garchomp, Heatran unless you're max Speed ig and the list goes on. Who cares if it checks Magearna and Koko if it can't even do its job consistently which in the end is what matters. If you're worried about Tapu Koko Magearna or whatever you run a AV Tangrowth instead of trying to go too hard on role compression and use shittier mons. Btw Specs Serperior isn't a thing and Protean Ninja outspeeds it and kills it with Ice Beam anyways. And if you aren't aware of what set Starmie commonly runs (you claim it loses to Ferro/Zapdos) then I'd recommend you to avoid trying to argue against it
 
Starmie beating every hazard remover in the tier, that's a dead ass lie, and Zapdos, the highest ranked hazard remover, says so.
he said it beats every hazard setter, which is true. Greninja, is what beats every hazard remover, which was the whole point of the post. I'm assuming you didn't read it completely before typing out your responce.

EDIT: For the rest of the post - Starmie is 100% the best spinner in the tier. Excadrill loses to all setters and doesn't even succeed in checking what it wants to because there is so much going against it. Like it doesn't even beat Lele or Bulu, and Koko always has either Greninja or a strong breaker along side it. I don't think there is current a reason to use Drill rn in a tier that has pokemon like Greninja (both), Lando, Celes etc available.
 
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Alright, so i've never talked on this thread before (hello!), But the recent mega drops have come and i've decided to state what I expect will happen to them in terms of viability starting out since i haven't really seen anybody else talking (I will be talking about what tiers that I think they will be in upon first decision, these are not nominations for M-hera and M-doom)

Mega Heracross will most likely be -A. Fighting/bug/rock coverage hits a decent range of current phys and general tanks like Celesteela, Tangrowth, Zapdos, M-sabyele, Magearna, Clefable, and Landot for at least netrual damage, and can 2HKO a majority of them thanks to its obscene attack stat. That alongside it's respectable bulk and decent defensive typing let M-cross to take hits from most moves they can throw on the switch, and with Megagross gone it recieves both less competition as a mega and another mon it doesnt have to play carefully around, being that a M-gross with zen wins 1-1 (assuming both are healthy). It won't be A or higher out the gate though, due to the issues it's always had like poor speed and a severe flying weakness (though that has diminished greatly this gen with the T-flame nerf), recieving a beating from new and revitalized mons like lele, Volcarona, Mega-Medicham, and Mega-Mawhile, and being walled by those who resist his coverage like toxapex and Mega-Scizor.

Mega Houndoom will most likely be +B/B. Just like Megagross, Houndoom will love the speed change for megas. It has great dual coverage which can roast most tanks and can boost its main attacking stat to obscene levels with NP, which even M-Gross couldn't boast. Combine that with the respectable ability to cripple switch ins with will-o-wisp/taunt, Doom can blow through most defensive mons like toxapex, landot, zygarde, and heatran, thanks to how most mons resist either dark or fire and not both (except tapu fini who has somewhat fallen off), and clean through many weakened teams due to it's great firepower and natural coverage. However, it's shortcomings are hard to mitigate. Many offensive mons like Gren, zygarde, ttar, duggie, and most scarfers give it a hard time, and it's lack of bulk doesnt help it at all. said bulk also comes from it's weakness to all hazards, which are everywhere rn. It also recieves some indirect competition from Volcarona, as it has a better boosting move, coverage (at the cost of will-o-wisp and taunt as utility options) and the standard "items and no mega slot" boon.

Those are just my thoughts, if there's anything else you guys can think of, feel free to add on
Doesn't Mega Heracross wreck Scizor? Close Combat is a 2HKO after rocks. 252+ Atk Heracross-Mega Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Scizor-Mega: 160-189 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
They have the same base speed but Heracross commonly runs more so it's not like Scizor can roost in its face.
 
I see all this talk about spinners, I just wanna state there are no good spinners imo. The last time ou had a good spinner was pheromosa.
Then maybe people should try out spinners from lower tiers instead of just Starmie or Excadrill. There are lots of spinners available to choose from, like Tsareena, Forretress, etc.
 
OK so I've never posted before, but for a long time I've been wanting to say something but was afraid of people calling me an idiot. However, a few people have already made nominations for this mon raising so this may be my best and only opportunity to give my two cents on the matter. I'll admit I might be a little bit biased since Gengar is honestly my favorite pokemon in the game. But I'd like to say that I support the rise of Gengar to A+. There are a surprising amount of sets that it can run effectively in the current meta which makes it hard to predict the set, and predicting incorrectly can often lead to losing a pokemon just based on how incredible its STABs are.

Comparing the stallbreaker life orb taunt Gengar set to the wallbreaker Tapu Lele, another mon in A+ tier, Gengar has an incredibly easy time breaking all forms of stall teams. With the introduction of Mega Heracross, stall teams (in my oppinion) are finding it harder than ever to fit 4 moved in their Dugtrio sets, which from my experiences means that pursuit dugtrio is all but non existant. As a stallbreaker, it loves the fact that it can't be trapped and even more importantly can't be hit by seismic toss. Something Tapu Lele or Heatran or any other taunt user often find themselves struggling with versus stall is taunting as the enemy Chansey goes for seismic toss, and then being worn down quickly in that way.

Looking at the wallbreaker choice specs set, Gengar has no switch ins in the tier (moveset depending I suppose). The best specially defensive checks in the tier fail to blanket check it. Tangrowth gets blown away. Celesteela and Toxapex gets 2hkod by thunderbolt. Chansey gets tricked and then beaten 1v1. Ferrothorn, Tyranitar and Heatran get slam dunked by focus blast.

And then also looking at the choice scarf set, scarf Gengar outpaces some very common scarfers in the tier like Keldeo and Tapu Lele, and has an underrated amount of power without a boosting item, being able to OHKO Medicham and Tapu Lele (in Lele's case it's after rocks) while still being able to 2hko important things like Tangrowth, and also has a 50% chance to OHKO Naive Greninja after rocks (one of the few "ghost resists" in the tier).

In general, I think Gengar thrives right now with a number of different viable sets. It lacks many reliable counters, and while it doesn't have the easiest time switching into a lot of the metagame, it can get entry so certain mons if you predict correctly, and can threaten those mons out in turn. A few good examples of top or just high tier mons that Gengar has the potential to come in on are Tapu Fini, Tangrowth, Medicham and Amoongus.

Obviously Gengar is threatened by the likes of faster stuff like Greninja or Tapu Koko, and can be susceptible to to being trapped by Ttar or Muk I guess. But I think the incredibility of Gengar's movepool leading to a lack of reliable answers, the appeal of its base 110 speed, and the ability to single handedly shut down stall WITHOUT being dead weight versus offence might justify it being among the top tier mons. I'll easily admit my oppinion is biased here and I could easily be wrong but I just wanted to give my oppinion on it, since there have been about 3 other people who have brought this idea up.
 
OK so I've never posted before, but for a long time I've been wanting to say something but was afraid of people calling me an idiot. However, a few people have already made nominations for this mon raising so this may be my best and only opportunity to give my two cents on the matter. I'll admit I might be a little bit biased since Gengar is honestly my favorite pokemon in the game. But I'd like to say that I support the rise of Gengar to A+. There are a surprising amount of sets that it can run effectively in the current meta which makes it hard to predict the set, and predicting incorrectly can often lead to losing a pokemon just based on how incredible its STABs are.

Comparing the stallbreaker life orb taunt Gengar set to the wallbreaker Tapu Lele, another mon in A+ tier, Gengar has an incredibly easy time breaking all forms of stall teams. With the introduction of Mega Heracross, stall teams (in my oppinion) are finding it harder than ever to fit 4 moved in their Dugtrio sets, which from my experiences means that pursuit dugtrio is all but non existant. As a stallbreaker, it loves the fact that it can't be trapped and even more importantly can't be hit by seismic toss. Something Tapu Lele or Heatran or any other taunt user often find themselves struggling with versus stall is taunting as the enemy Chansey goes for seismic toss, and then being worn down quickly in that way.

Looking at the wallbreaker choice specs set, Gengar has no switch ins in the tier (moveset depending I suppose). The best specially defensive checks in the tier fail to blanket check it. Tangrowth gets blown away. Celesteela and Toxapex gets 2hkod by thunderbolt. Chansey gets tricked and then beaten 1v1. Ferrothorn, Tyranitar and Heatran get slam dunked by focus blast.

And then also looking at the choice scarf set, scarf Gengar outpaces some very common scarfers in the tier like Keldeo and Tapu Lele, and has an underrated amount of power without a boosting item, being able to OHKO Medicham and Tapu Lele (in Lele's case it's after rocks) while still being able to 2hko important things like Tangrowth, and also has a 50% chance to OHKO Naive Greninja after rocks (one of the few "ghost resists" in the tier).

In general, I think Gengar thrives right now with a number of different viable sets. It lacks many reliable counters, and while it doesn't have the easiest time switching into a lot of the metagame, it can get entry so certain mons if you predict correctly, and can threaten those mons out in turn. A few good examples of top or just high tier mons that Gengar has the potential to come in on are Tapu Fini, Tangrowth, Medicham and Amoongus.

Obviously Gengar is threatened by the likes of faster stuff like Greninja or Tapu Koko, and can be susceptible to to being trapped by Ttar or Muk I guess. But I think the incredibility of Gengar's movepool leading to a lack of reliable answers, the appeal of its base 110 speed, and the ability to single handedly shut down stall WITHOUT being dead weight versus offence might justify it being among the top tier mons. I'll easily admit my oppinion is biased here and I could easily be wrong but I just wanted to give my oppinion on it, since there have been about 3 other people who have brought this idea up.
I wanted to add about what you said about specs Gengar 2HKOing Celesteela & Toxapex with Tbolt or Thunder. Dont forget Tapu Koko has Electric Surge, which powers up electric move. This helps Gengar boosts it Damage output when using these moves. I have a team with Tapu Koko & Scarf Gengar. Having Electric Surge+Tbolt helps alot in dealing damage. Just wanted to point out how Gengar gains help from Koko, Lele & Bulu, since it learns Tbolt, Thunder, Energy Ball, Giga Drain & Psychic. Plus, grassy Terrain helps it by weakening EQs & Psychic Terrain by preventing priorities.
 
OK so I've never posted before, but for a long time I've been wanting to say something but was afraid of people calling me an idiot. However, a few people have already made nominations for this mon raising so this may be my best and only opportunity to give my two cents on the matter. I'll admit I might be a little bit biased since Gengar is honestly my favorite pokemon in the game. But I'd like to say that I support the rise of Gengar to A+. There are a surprising amount of sets that it can run effectively in the current meta which makes it hard to predict the set, and predicting incorrectly can often lead to losing a pokemon just based on how incredible its STABs are.

Comparing the stallbreaker life orb taunt Gengar set to the wallbreaker Tapu Lele, another mon in A+ tier, Gengar has an incredibly easy time breaking all forms of stall teams. With the introduction of Mega Heracross, stall teams (in my oppinion) are finding it harder than ever to fit 4 moved in their Dugtrio sets, which from my experiences means that pursuit dugtrio is all but non existant. As a stallbreaker, it loves the fact that it can't be trapped and even more importantly can't be hit by seismic toss. Something Tapu Lele or Heatran or any other taunt user often find themselves struggling with versus stall is taunting as the enemy Chansey goes for seismic toss, and then being worn down quickly in that way.

Looking at the wallbreaker choice specs set, Gengar has no switch ins in the tier (moveset depending I suppose). The best specially defensive checks in the tier fail to blanket check it. Tangrowth gets blown away. Celesteela and Toxapex gets 2hkod by thunderbolt. Chansey gets tricked and then beaten 1v1. Ferrothorn, Tyranitar and Heatran get slam dunked by focus blast.

And then also looking at the choice scarf set, scarf Gengar outpaces some very common scarfers in the tier like Keldeo and Tapu Lele, and has an underrated amount of power without a boosting item, being able to OHKO Medicham and Tapu Lele (in Lele's case it's after rocks) while still being able to 2hko important things like Tangrowth, and also has a 50% chance to OHKO Naive Greninja after rocks (one of the few "ghost resists" in the tier).

In general, I think Gengar thrives right now with a number of different viable sets. It lacks many reliable counters, and while it doesn't have the easiest time switching into a lot of the metagame, it can get entry so certain mons if you predict correctly, and can threaten those mons out in turn. A few good examples of top or just high tier mons that Gengar has the potential to come in on are Tapu Fini, Tangrowth, Medicham and Amoongus.

Obviously Gengar is threatened by the likes of faster stuff like Greninja or Tapu Koko, and can be susceptible to to being trapped by Ttar or Muk I guess. But I think the incredibility of Gengar's movepool leading to a lack of reliable answers, the appeal of its base 110 speed, and the ability to single handedly shut down stall WITHOUT being dead weight versus offence might justify it being among the top tier mons. I'll easily admit my oppinion is biased here and I could easily be wrong but I just wanted to give my oppinion on it, since there have been about 3 other people who have brought this idea up.
I am not quite sure what you are saying about Dugtrio here. It doesn't need pursuit against Gengar because earthquake destroys it. I mean isn't pursuit kinda useless because unless the mon Dugtrio is in on has u turn the mon can't switch out so I'm a little confused about that...
 

Muscle K

Banned deucer.
I am not quite sure what you are saying about Dugtrio here. It doesn't need pursuit against Gengar because earthquake destroys it. I mean isn't pursuit kinda useless because unless the mon Dugtrio is in on has u turn the mon can't switch out so I'm a little confused about that...

Pursuit is used to trap Ghost types as they are unable to be trapped by anything.


I see all this talk about spinners, I just wanna state there are no good spinners imo. The last time ou had a good spinner was pheromosa.
njnp is correct, this meta has evolved where the most reliable way to remove hazards is to defog, not spin.

Not going to ramble on because this is just a stale and stupid arguement, but that's my opinion.


EDIT: Thanks for the team mate :]
 
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