Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Indigo Plateau]

So now it needs two mons besides it to function properly? Like yeah sure lol dugtrio and Mew aren't hard to fit on a team, but I can't think of any A+ mon that *requires* another poke to be run effectively, much less two other pokes.

Yes, depending on the set, there can be an extra answer, but it's also not hard or detrimental to run something like Dugtrio for proper team support. For example: HP Ice instead of HP Ground? Duggy removes both Heatran and Chansey, and now you have to be very careful to not get set up on.

I mean, if you want to completely disregard the fact that I mentioned that most teams, regardless of whether they contain Volc or not, already run hazard removal like Mew/Latios and also somehow say that I stated that Dugtrio needs to be paired alongside Volc when I was merely giving an example that you can use it if you want to opt for HP Ice > HP Ground (literally right below what you quoted), then you do you.

Gengar A- ---> A

Unfortunately, I was hoping of getting more replays of Gengar in action, but the sudden Marshadow release doesn't really let me do that, so I'll just discuss it without replays.

Gengar dropped from A before due to the rise in pursuit users and because Celesteela and Magearna gave it troubles. After not having to run scarf anymore, Gengar can now afford to run life orb/specs.

Magearna has been seeing more usage as a sweeper and isn't a reliable switch in to either of these sets, as both 2hko with Shadow Ball. Granted, AV sets still deal with it fairly well.

Celesteela is also only a reliable switch in once vs specs. Afterwards, Shadow Ball has a high chance to 2hko, especially if rocks are up. Life Orb sets can pack Tbolt, which Celesteela has to watch out for, and this doesn't even take into account that not all are SpDef now.

TTar gets bopped by Focus Blast, and with the release of Mega TTar, Gengar also has an easier team not worrying about Pursuit, as Mega TTar is almost always DD. Granted, Gengar is obviously not safe after a boost, but this shows that even TTar isn't a reliable answer to it unless it's scarf.

As Chansey usage rises, both life orb and specs threaten it with Taunt and Trick, respectively, while most Chanseys can't do much back (I've mostly seen Toxic > Twave from my experience). As Toxapex becomes more popular, Gengar helps clear Tspikes while also threatening it with (specs) Shadow Ball. Lastly, Gengar takes advantage of Tangrowth/Mew defensive cores which are really popular.

I've mostly used the specs set and I highly recommend you try out if you haven't yet, as Shadow Ball already has few switchins and seeing the other team's supposed Gengar answer take 40% on switch is awesome. I mostly want to hear people's opinions as I can see it staying A-, but I think that A is a better fit for it.

 

[Colonel M]

I actually have a nomination that would contradict DownAbove. I've been meaning to make this nomination last time, but figured I would wait when I have a computer in front of me and not working.

A- -> B+

I disagree with Gengar's current rank and definitely disagree with Gengar's rise. Gengar is a very strong Pokemon, but it's very difficult to get in freely since the loss of Levitate is starting to become more noticeable in a Pheromosa-less metagame and its Speed tier isn't as great anymore. Furthermore, it is crowded with Latios Speed tying, Protean Greninjas considering Dark Pulse to guarantee a reliable OHKO on Gengar, and some of the new Megas that have come out recently. Gengar has to bank on Specs raw power and getting the prediction right almost everytime or it's boned. All-Out Attacker isn't bad, but it gets worn out easily since Life Orb damage can add up (and really can with Spikes / Sandstorm if the opponent has a Tyranitar). Celesteela don't always run Specially Defensive anymore, but it's still pretty solid to take on Gengar while Assault Vest Magearna can shrug quite a few hits. So can Assault Vest Magnezone. Chansey becoming an option on more balanced teams as well as Toxapex don't really do Gengar a ton of favors outside of Tricking Choice Scarf on them - and even then that's risky in some scenarios because it can simply give free switch-ins to other Pokemon. Tyranitar rising in popularity and having a very good win rate also does not do Gengar favors. Even though Weavile hasn't been doing very impressive either it is a Pokemon I feel is still annoying for offensive teams, which usually have Gengar, and can trap Gengar without any issues with Band Pursuit. Other meta trends don't favor it either such as Rain, which to be fair on Mega Alakazam (which I do think deserves B+ in the end sadly), does at least have the benefit of using Trace against Swift Swimmers and posing a threat if Kingdra / Mega Swampert are chipped down.

If that doesn't really help damn Gengar, it was used 12 times in WCoP - and managed to only win 3 games. 3. No Pokemon, even Tapu Fini, have such a pathetic ranking above it. It's actually one of the lowest if you detract from the 0% - only Mega Medicham is lower from what I recall.

I really don't think Gengar is in a great spot in the metagame right now. It's still powerful and has potential to fuck up teams, but more teams are starting to prep with Pokemon that can handle Gengar and its Speed tier is a lot easier to overcome than, say, Greninja's.

There are some things that I feel do salvage Gengar a bit, but I feel currently in the meta it just isn't as good as it could potentially be and the usage recently is starting to show that. Gengar is a bit more paper threatening than in practice. A threat for sure, but not one that isn't difficult to overcome to the point of it being an A Rank mon with things such as Tapu Lele which have utility going along for them as well.

I also want to echo this post as it greatly summarizes Volcarona's reason to stay in A+ rank. The counterarguments against Volcarona in this thread thus far, especially from Seth_ and Toshiro, have been incredibly underwhelming to me.

 

[Dreadfury]

A- -> B+: Disagree (only somewhat)

The meta has grown somewhat hostile towards Gengar, especially with Latios and (Mega) TTar on the rise, but I feel that Gengar is still a fair bit better than a good portion of the stuff in B+, barring the rain sweepers (I made my opinions regarding those two well-known by now). The main reason for this is, I would argue, because of the strength of the Specs set: there isn't a whole lot on more offensive teams that wants to take a Specs-boosted Shadow Ball considering how spammable of a STAB move it is, and many of the things that can handle it, such as Chansey and the aforementioned TTar, either cannot touch Gengar in return or risk eating a coverage move and getting OHKOed instead.

The main thing going for the Choiced variants - not just the Specs set - is probably Trick, though. Predicting a switch correctly and giving a wall a Choice item can easily enable setup sweepers to prey on any switches that can be forced as a result. The pressure Gengar can put on a variety of team archetypes with just its STABs, coverage, and the occasional Thunderbolt is one thing, but the fear of getting Tricked at a bad time simply allows Gengar to force even more switches than it already does. There isn't really anything in the tier that's truly safe from Gengar, and although it's not excellent in this meta, it's still good enough to warrant either keeping it in A- or at least considering some of the reasons for it to rise to A.

Yes, it's very prediction-reliant as it stands. But one could argue the same for any other Choice user. And I'd argue Gengar is just as good as most of the A- threats, although reasons for a rise to A and a drop to B+ are both equally valid. I'd say it's fine in A- for now, though.

 

[Marrrrrrrrrr]

I think Gengar is fine where it is. DownAbove doesn't really talk much about how Gengar got better bar the Mega Tyranitar thing, which still doesn't change the fact that Pursuit Tyranitar is still as common as ever. Colonel M brings up a good point about how prediction reliant it is, needing Choice Scarf + Trick to do this and coverage moves to do that. But still, with the Gengar-negative metagame trends that Colonel M brought up, Gengar can still bypass most of them anyway. Thunderbolt for Celesteela and Toxapex, Focus Blast for Tyranitar and Magnezone, and what will Chansey do back against Gengar? I guess Chansey would beat Life Orb variants of Gengar due to the Life Orb recoil, but against other Gengar sets, wouldn't both of them just end up killing themselves in the Struggle war? In my opinion, I think the fact that it's so prediction reliant is enough to keep it from rising, but the fact that as Colonel M said, "It's still powerful and has potential to fuck up teams" is enough to keep it from dropping. Short post but I think it gets my point across.

 

[banks]

A- -> B+: Agree

A lot of what needs to be said about Gengar has already been said by Colonel M, but it really struggles with a lot right now; any viable Stall archetype beats it, offence has a lot of tools to deal with it also, namely webs now that levitate has maliciously been taken from it, Greninja, Scarf Lati and Marshadow (but I doubt that it'll be in the tier for much longer).

------------

A -> A+: Agree

Mew can fit onto almost any team composition pretty easily, the flexibly and 'splashability' of this mon is extremely impressive. Being one the most reliable Deffogers whilst being able to cripple mons like Zygarde, Mega-Medicham and now Mega-Lopunny it definitely desrves a rise. Stealth Rock, Ice Beam, Earth Power and Thunder Wave are also all viable options for it. Additionally, it has some of the highest usage for Tournament play, having the 3rd highest usage in round 1 of WCoP for good reason.

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B -> B+/A-

Time for a nomination of my own, Alomomola has recently somewhat surged in usage and Tournament play over the past couple of months. Being able to reliably hinder bulkier teams with Toxic, and Wish Passing alongside Regenerator makes this mon very useful in the current meta. Deals with Rain-Teams pretty well, and can overcome some premier offensive threats such as; Greninja, Keldeo, Garchomp and Tyranitar with it's sustainable bulk, Toxic damage, potential Scald burns and extra chip damage if Rocky Helmet were to be used (although now, leftovers is generally the preferred item).
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-299790

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-299790 - Pearl vs False.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-298103 - ABR vs Pearl

Here are two high-level games showing how consistent Alomomola is at serving its role.

I'll delve into some more mons later such as Zard Y, Duggy, Zapdos, Volc and Pex ~

 

[Photofluid]

So now it needs two mons besides it to function properly? Like yeah sure lol dugtrio and Mew aren't hard to fit on a team, but I can't think of any A+ mon that *requires* another poke to be run effectively, much less two other pokes.

And also complaining about everytime a topic is discussed extensively is way more cancerous and off topic than a topic being discussed extensively like hello??? you can't derail the thread with something perfectly on topic with it but w/e

I think you are misunderstanding the argument going around.

While Volcanoran requires defog support badly, most properly built team requires it anyway. The fact that you are going to need defog with or without the bug means SR weakness is a lot less detrimental than it otherwise would be. I would even go further to say that ultimately, an SR weakness is a lot more about having less switch opportunity than it is about restricting teambuild.

As of the problem about "checks", firstly people have to realize just because checks exist do not mean a pokemon is bad, all but a few exceptions do. In fact, by choosing from one of its many viable sets, Volc is actually able to break all but one of its check(Mantine) if it desires. So it actually a very awkward argument to say that the rise of TTar/Pex/etc. hurts Volc's viability because NONE of them are solid checks. Also, the Dugtrio argument resembles the Diancie/Magneton argument back in ORAS. It does not mean Dugtrio support is required for Volc, it just means that there happens to be a very viable teammate in the meta that can get rid of all of Volc's checks(which are shaky anyway) at once and in one team slot.

Lastly, I would like to have some input in the philosophical issue of A+. Many people reference that one quality of A+ is that the poke there are all very splash-able. I agree, but only to an extend. IMO all the ranking is but a perception of viability. There have been efforts to implement additional rules into it in the past but we never have any success. Being splashable is without doubt an important quality for pokemon with a rank as high as A+ but it is by no mean a necessity. In the case of Volc, it is far less splashable than most A+ pokemon we ever had, but it is also far more dangerous than just about anything that has been put into this rank. A 4* SR weakness sucks without doubt, but without that I am damn sure Volc would be in Uber already.

It has probably slip through most people's mind, likely because how bad Volc was back in ORAS(rip Talonflame), but Volc has one of the highest SpA sitting 135 together with one of the most broken setup move in the entire game in Quivery dance(some interesting calculation below). It is also one of the best abuser of Z-moves. This should give people a better perspective of what a beast of this pokemon truly is.

Interesting Calculation for those who still remembers the legacy of an ultimate wall breaker:
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. +2 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 153-180 (49.1 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

 

[robopoke]

Just as an early reminder, I try to not use words such as shit, fuck, dumb, trash, idiotic, stupid to express my opinion. If you wish to respond to me, I expect the same. Thank you.


Most teams have Hazard removal but using that as argument for Volcarona not needing extra support is not correct. You can always play a game without even Defogging if you dont have to. With Volcarona in the back you have to play a passive early game, try to prevent Hazards as much as possible and try to sweep lategame with Volcarona. Another possibility is playing a normal early game, allowing Rocks to go up on your side and then sacking momentum to Defog the Hazards few turns before you attempt to sweep with Volcarona.

Using the common "influence" argument for Volc not to drop is not appropriate. Yes, Volc forces people to run 101+ Scarfers with Rock coverage, Mantine, Chansey or other form of revengekilling or Quiver Dance punishers. People are aware of what their team needs to not get swept by Volcarona but that is more like an argument for it to drop, not for it to stay A+. Lemme give you an example:
Zard X was S in ORAS but then the metagame adapted to it because of how scary that mon is. What happened to Zard X? Its viablity dropped because everyonw knows how to deal with it in ORAS. Be it with defensive Lando-T or Dragon Dance punishers with T-Wave Rotom-W, Scarf Latios in the back or priority spam, whatever. Fact is people know how to prevent that scary mon from sweeping and it became less viable as a result

Volcarona can adapt with Z-Bug Buzz for Zygarde+TTar or the recent Charti Berry to sweep through teams who use Scarfers to deal with Volcarona, but it became much more matchup dependant. There was a time in SM when TTar and Lati were good in SM but rarely used both ladder and in tournaments. After Mega Metagross got banned, Lati and TTar rose in usage and now force the Volcaronauser to think, wether they need Bug Buzz or not.

Imagine you have HP Ice but your opponent has a Heatran. Imagine you have Z-Psychic but your opponent has either TTar or Lati. It is much harder for Volcarona to sweep because now there is an actually good reason to use Bug Buzz.
Back then people would tell you "ah you do not really need Bug Buzz. Nobody uses TTar or Lati and Z-Psychic is just so cool to lure the ever so common Pex and it kills many other stuff neutrally at +1".

With that I am convinced, even though Volcarona is still scary and a powerful wincondition that it does not deserve to share a seat with Greninja and Bulu.

tldr:
a) People know how to deal with it and realize, Pex isnt reliable
b) Lati and TTar usage after Mega Metagross ban
c) Offensive teams do not always need a Scarfer that can revengekill Volc. Sheer offensive presence works or if your team has some defensive setup-bait, priorityspam.

A+ -> A

 

[Night Train Lane]

The zard x comparison doesn't work because zard itself can do nothing to adapt to lando other than run, like, wisp. Volc, by itself, can beat ~90% of it's checks.

Everyone's talking in circles at this point.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't feel either way about Gengar. Though, i'm leaning towards B+ with certain new Pokemon being released. Even before that, it's been completely underwhelming in practice. Certainly so in tours.

 

[Vert]

People forget Volcarona doesn't even have to set up to be a threat. It's not like you lose much on the metagame by running Buginium Z or Psychicium Z since they cover Zygarde, while giving you the option to hit Tyranitar / Latios or Toxapex. Here are some examples in World Cup and other tournaments in which Volcarona never had to set up to pose a threat, even to teams WITH 100+ Choice Scarf users. It forces stress both in-game and on your teambuilding:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-295749 - You would naturally think with a Choice Scarf Keldeo and Mega Pinsir you would be safe against Volcarona, but these are the type of builds Volcarona loves since it gives it free switch-ins to fire off powerful Fire Blasts. It doesn't even need to set up, so I do not know why we are under the impression that it has to set up to be a threat when it is quite the opposite.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-294201 - This is probably one of my favorite World Cup games because it features Firium Z Volcarona, an item choice that has died off a long time ago, but it shows how it's still effective to nuke unexpected Landorus-T, Tapu Lele, and Kyurem-B in this case. Once again, a 100+ Choice Scarf user and Pokemon that pressure it to set up, but it never had to.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-264815 - OST Round 5 (iirc) where Psychicium Z Volcarona shows that it's not matchup dependent but a threat because of how once again, it does not have to set up to win and Psychicium Z is still nice for neutral coverage on Zygarde and hitting Choice Scarf users on the switch. In this game, it was used to surprise an Alolan Marowak and its Fire Blasts are once again something nothing enjoys taking because you are always under the assumption that it will attempt to Quiver Dance.

The rise in Chansey and Mantine usage hurts, but you also need to realize how Mew invites Volcarona in for free, which is starting to become more common than the former two. Chansey is really only seen on variations as stall since Chansey balance is yet to make a splash in tour play. The ladder is obviously an important part of the metagame, but you should also account that the ladder is also in February, so Charti Berry sets sweep entire teams...

Volcarona finds itself to adapt to the metagame with ease. Comparing it to Mega Charizard X is a poor analogy since Mega Charizard X never had the strongest movepool to adapt as quickly as Volcarona (and Landorus-T was, and still is, on almost every team). A certain Volcarona set may end up being deadweight in X matchup, but this is really against teams with very slow, passive defensive backbones. The matter is hazard removal is in a much better state and Volcarona is so easy to support with other splashable teammates. It's definitely deserving of its A+ ranking. Also, Fire-types in general are just insane right now (to a point that offensive Rotom-H actually did work in World Cup lol).

 

[robopoke]

People forget Volcarona doesn't even have to set up to be a threat. It's not like you lose much on the metagame by running Buginium Z or Psychicium Z since they cover Zygarde, while giving you the option to hit Tyranitar / Latios or Toxapex. Here are some examples in World Cup and other tournaments in which Volcarona never had to set up to pose a threat, even to teams WITH 100+ Choice Scarf users. It forces stress both in-game and on your teambuilding:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-295749 - You would naturally think with a Choice Scarf Keldeo and Mega Pinsir you would be safe against Volcarona, but these are the type of builds Volcarona loves since it gives it free switch-ins to fire off powerful Fire Blasts. It doesn't even need to set up, so I do not know why we are under the impression that it has to set up to be a threat when it is quite the opposite.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-294201 - This is probably one of my favorite World Cup games because it features Firium Z Volcarona, an item choice that has died off a long time ago, but it shows how it's still effective to nuke unexpected Landorus-T, Tapu Lele, and Kyurem-B in this case. Once again, a 100+ Choice Scarf user and Pokemon that pressure it to set up, but it never had to.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-264815 - OST Round 5 (iirc) where Psychicium Z Volcarona shows that it's not matchup dependent but a threat because of how once again, it does not have to set up to win and Psychicium Z is still nice for neutral coverage on Zygarde and hitting Choice Scarf users on the switch. In this game, it was used to surprise an Alolan Marowak and its Fire Blasts are once again something nothing enjoys taking because you are always under the assumption that it will attempt to Quiver Dance.

The rise in Chansey and Mantine usage hurts, but you also need to realize how Mew invites Volcarona in for free, which is starting to become more common than the former two. Chansey is really only seen on variations as stall since Chansey balance is yet to make a splash in tour play. The ladder is obviously an important part of the metagame, but you should also account that the ladder is also in February, so Charti Berry sets sweep entire teams...

Volcarona finds itself to adapt to the metagame with ease. Comparing it to Mega Charizard X is a poor analogy since Mega Charizard X never had the strongest movepool to adapt as quickly as Volcarona (and Landorus-T was, and still is, on almost every team). A certain Volcarona set may end up being deadweight in X matchup, but this is really against teams with very slow, passive defensive backbones. The matter is hazard removal is in a much better state and Volcarona is so easy to support with other splashable teammates. It's definitely deserving of its A+ ranking. Also, Fire-types in general are just insane right now (to a point that offensive Rotom-H actually did work in World Cup lol).

This post is pure gold. I was probably too caught up with the rise of TTar and Lati that I totally forgot that just straight up attacking is already very deadly. The replays with your comments are great demonstrations. With this I also agree that Volcarona should stay A+.

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

This is a nomination done by many people already, but I feel I should share my input:

Mega Venusaur: B- ----> B/B+

I feel like B/B+ is a much more appropriate rating for Mega Venusaur atm. Mega Venusaur is an incredible defensive pokemon that has adapted to meta game changes much better than other B- Pokemon, like Mega-Charizard, Salamence, and Omastar. It has done a great job providing a decent answer to mega tyranitar, and can check a lot of prominent pokemon like Greninja, Clefable, Keldeo, Mega Scizor (with HP fire), etc. It will also do great against the soon to be bane of OU, Mega Lopunny. It Resists it fighting stabs thanks to its poison typing, and tanks its normal stab well, and can dish back damage with sludge bomb and giga drain. It also is a solid answer to the few good Ice types like Weavile, Mamoswine, and Kyurem-B, and doesn't get destroyed by fire type attacks thanks to its ability, Thick fat. This is especially useful when Volcarona is a very popular fire type that loves to spam Fire Blast. It can also use leech seed to do chip damage and heal up a little as well, and it also has access to reliable recover in synthesis. It can easily take care of 3/4 of the Tapus, the only one it cannot handle is Tapu Lele, because of it's unfortunate psychic weakness. It also destroys Mega-Swampert, and can tank everything it throws at it. Overall, and underrated and underranked mega, It deserves to be B rank, maybe even B+

 

[Divine Retribution]

It also is a solid answer to the few good Ice types like Weavile, Mamoswine, and Kyurem-B

Friendly reminder that Teravolt negates Thick Fat.

4 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Venusaur-Mega: 203-242 (55.9 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 680-804 (187.3 - 221.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[UltraBallz]

This is a nomination done by many people already, but I feel I should share my input:

Mega Venusaur: B- ----> B/B+

I feel like B/B+ is a much more appropriate rating for Mega Venusaur atm. Mega Venusaur is an incredible defensive pokemon that has adapted to meta game changes much better than other B- Pokemon, like Mega-Charizard, Salamence, and Omastar. It has done a great job providing a decent answer to mega tyranitar, and can check a lot of prominent pokemon like Greninja, Clefable, Keldeo, Mega Scizor (with HP fire), etc. It will also do great against the soon to be bane of OU, Mega Lopunny. It Resists it fighting stabs thanks to its poison typing, and tanks its normal stab well, and can dish back damage with sludge bomb and giga drain. It also is a solid answer to the few good Ice types like Weavile, Mamoswine, and Kyurem-B, and doesn't get destroyed by fire type attacks thanks to its ability, Thick fat. This is especially useful when Volcarona is a very popular fire type that loves to spam Fire Blast. It can also use leech seed to do chip damage and heal up a little as well, and it also has access to reliable recover in synthesis. It can easily take care of 3/4 of the Tapus, the only one it cannot handle is Tapu Lele, because of it's unfortunate psychic weakness. It also destroys Mega-Swampert, and can tank everything it throws at it. Overall, and underrated and underranked mega, It deserves to be B rank, maybe even B+

Yeah I mean the fact that Venusaur is ranked with Omastar is kind of ridiculous to me. I think it is a combination of star being ranked much too high and venu being a little undervalued. Venusaur has been fairly popular in world cup and definitely has its uses compared to the other mons its currently ranked with.

Also, just want to quickly support raises for Mew and Zard Y. Zard Y is to me one of the top 2 mega options right now along with Pinsir. The improvement of hazard control (mostly mew) has made Zard much easier to support and I think its time for a raise. It's win rate in World Cup is very good and has been a threat in every game it has been brought.

Mew walls pretty much everything and its set can be catered to beat and outspeed what you need it to like Zygarde. It is without question the best defogger in the tier and is the most splashable defensive blanket check along with AV tang. I think they should probably be in the same rank. Obviously I'm not saying they do the same things just that they are both super splashable and check large portions of the metagame. Plus mew can be used on every playstyle from Bulky O to Stall very effectively.

 

[Reviloja753]

Speaking of Omastar...

Omastar B- ---> C / C- / UR
I get it. Shell Smash and Swift Swim. However, there are better Swift Swimmers that hit hard, most notably Kingdra. Also, Bulu's rise hurts too, as it is easily the best Grass-type in the tier. Also, Omastar has been ranked too high in general. It could be argued that Minior is a better Shell Smasher and that isn't ranked either. Omastar is just way too high in VR than it should be and should have dropped a long time ago.

Marowak-Alola B+ ---> B
Alolawak is good on OTR teams. However, Magearna is using OTR less and less as it moves more towards Shift Gear and to a lesser extent, AV. Alolawak's viability mostly relies on the popularity of OTR Magearna. As that set falls in popularity and usage, so should Alolawak.

Hippowdon C+ ---> C- / UR
Tyranitar and its mega have resurfaced, leaving Hippo outclassed as a sand setter. Also, Rain makes Hippowdon suffer, even more so than Ttar. Not much else to this one.

Talonflame C- ---> UR
Ttar is back, and I think that it should be the nail in the coffin for the Smogbirb. It switches into anything and disables Gale Wings, and unlike Hippowdon (who is rather passive) easily eats Talonflame for breakfast. It is outclassed even more as a Z-move user as Magearna has risen since I first arrived here and first nominated this very thing. There's also Volcarona as a Z-move user, leaving Talonflame in the dust. It can't find a place on teams anymore with the rise of other Z-move users and has more threats than it did earlier on to handle. Just put this meme to rest and unrank Smogbirb.

Rotom-Wash feels like something that should drop, but I can't quite put my finger on what changed in the transition from ORAS to SuMo that brought it down. I don't want to make a full-on nomination because I haven't even seen it at all this generation and in case I am missing something about Rotom-Wash that justifies B+.

 

[mushamu]

Speaking of Omastar...

Omastar B- ---> C / C- / UR
I get it. Shell Smash and Swift Swim. However, there are better Swift Swimmers that hit hard, most notably Kingdra. Also, Bulu's rise hurts too, as it is easily the best Grass-type in the tier. Also, Omastar has been ranked too high in general. It could be argued that Minior is a better Shell Smasher and that isn't ranked either. Omastar is just way too high in VR than it should be and should have dropped a long time ago.

Marowak-Alola B+ ---> B
Alolawak is good on OTR teams. However, Magearna is using OTR less and less as it moves more towards Shift Gear and to a lesser extent, AV. Alolawak's viability mostly relies on the popularity of OTR Magearna. As that set falls in popularity and usage, so should Alolawak.

Hippowdon C+ ---> C- / UR
Tyranitar and its mega have resurfaced, leaving Hippo outclassed as a sand setter. Also, Rain makes Hippowdon suffer, even more so than Ttar. Not much else to this one.

Talonflame C- ---> UR
Ttar is back, and I think that it should be the nail in the coffin for the Smogbirb. It switches into anything and disables Gale Wings, and unlike Hippowdon (who is rather passive) easily eats Talonflame for breakfast. It is outclassed even more as a Z-move user as Magearna has risen since I first arrived here and first nominated this very thing. There's also Volcarona as a Z-move user, leaving Talonflame in the dust. It can't find a place on teams anymore with the rise of other Z-move users and has more threats than it did earlier on to handle. Just put this meme to rest and unrank Smogbirb.

Rotom-Wash feels like something that should drop, but I can't quite put my finger on what changed in the transition from ORAS to SuMo that brought it down. I don't want to make a full-on nomination because I haven't even seen it at all this generation and in case I am missing something about Rotom-Wash that justifies B+.

pretty sure rotom wash isn't as good as it was because of all the wallbreakers this gen. You have Tapu Bulu, SD Garchomp, Tapu Lele, Tapu Koko, and most importantly Zygarde, which are all high ranked pokemon.

 

[GnuGnu]

Speaking of Omastar...

Omastar B- ---> C / C- / UR
I get it. Shell Smash and Swift Swim. However, there are better Swift Swimmers that hit hard, most notably Kingdra. Also, Bulu's rise hurts too, as it is easily the best Grass-type in the tier. Also, Omastar has been ranked too high in general. It could be argued that Minior is a better Shell Smasher and that isn't ranked either. Omastar is just way too high in VR than it should be and should have dropped a long time ago.

Maybe B- is a bit high for Omastar but to unrank this thing would be ridiculous. It's harder to fit this thing on rain teams atm than it use to be. But Omastar's merits still remain, it's basically the only rain sweeper that can actually beat traditional rain counters. Ferrothorn and Chansey laugh at Kingdra but Omastar bops both of them if the opportunity presents itself (which admittedly is easier said than done but Kingdra has absolutely no chance of doing that). I wouldn't necessarily call Bulu a counter either.

 

[Dreadwing]

Rotom-Wash feels like something that should drop, but I can't quite put my finger on what changed in the transition from ORAS to SuMo that brought it down. I don't want to make a full-on nomination because I haven't even seen it at all this generation and in case I am missing something about Rotom-Wash that justifies B+.

Well Rotom is worst in Sun and Moon because Sand isnt very popular and that bird spam is not a thing anymore because tflame nerf. This metagame changes coupled with the burn nerf which is a big difference with chipping away special attackers. It might not be one of the best pokes as ORAS being a+ but b+ is a fine place for him this gen as it still has some awesome qualities as good defensive typing+wisp and it shouldn't drop to b-, the same rank that has alolan muk which isnt even consistent at doing his main role being checking tapu lele.

 

[Vengeance417]

I disagree with a Rotom drop. With all of these new Fighting type mons assaulting the tier, there's a lot of Flying type mons like Pinsir, defensive/Fly-Z Lando, Fly-Z Gyara, ect trying to capitalize on the new trend, and Rotom-W is able to combat all of these for its Fighting spam partners while also giving its team momentum with Volt Switch.

 

[palkia246]

I'm sorry, but with all due respect, I cannot believe some of the reasonings behind dropping any of the mons you brought up.

Omastar - This one's already been brought up. Omastar's niche is that depsite being a little hard to fit on rain teams, it can deal with the archetype's biggest means of countermeasure in Chansey and Ferrothorn. It is not meant to be used over Kingdra as you seem to have suggested. It is used alongside Kingdra in order to allow it to clean up more easily late-game once some of its only reliable switch-ins are gone or heavily weakened. Bringing up Minior also does nothing to help your argument, as Omastar's ability, much better offensive stats, and ability to use Shell Smash way more often and to more success than Minior allow it to actually fit onto serious OU teams and consistently perform its role, which is something Minior was never capable of doing unless with immense team support.

Alolan Marowak - I'm honestly of the opinion that Alolan Marowak should drop, but that isn't at all because of the decline in usage of Magearna's OTR set. First off, usage doesn't equate to viability, so even if Magearna's OTR set is used less often it certainly isn't a bad set. It's actually a really good set with plenty of merits over AV and Shift Gear. Second, the tier still has a handful of Trick Room setters that are fully capable of adequately supporting Alolan Marowak, including but not limited to Cresselia, Uxie, Hoopa-U, and even things like Mimikyu and Bronzong. If Alolan Marowak should drop, it should be due to the sheer amount of wallbreakers that it competes with for a slot (Mega Maw, Heatran) that bring more defensive utility to the table or better Speed.

Hippowdon - I don't think you understand Hippowdon's niche. If its only niche was as a sand setter it wouldn't be close to ranked. Hippowdon provides teams with a decent defensive Ground-type that unlike Lando, has recovery, and can also compress roles decently with Whirlwind and Toxic. It's by no means a good Pokemon, but that's currently reflected by its C+ ranking. It is in no way similar to Tyranitar other than their ability, as neither is used almost ever with the goal to set sand. Sand is a bad playstyle anyway, so if you're using Hippowdon for the purpose of setting sand then no wonder you want it unranked. Dropping this thing may be a possibility, but absolutely not if it's on the basis of Tyranitar's presence in the tier, the two aren't comparable.

Talonflame - Tyranitar has been in the tier since the beginning of the metagame, and has been popular for a few ranking updates now. It really shouldn't be able to come in on Talonflame at all in a match, as Talonflame is used as a late-game cleaner. Talonflame's whole niche centers around its ability to clean up really easily in the late-game, and when it cleans Tyranitar is usually gone, if not then something's gone pretty wrong. In terms of how heavily Tyranitar pressures Talon, the same is said with any rock-type in the current metagame. However, a player building around Talonflame will pack Rock-type checks on their team in order to make sure that threats such as Tyranitar are removed before Talon even hopes to come into play.

Rotom-W - There's no reason to punish this for being worse than last gen when dropping it from A+ to B+ has already done that. Rotom-W has honestly only gotten better in the current metagame if we're honest, considering that Mega Pinsir is the tier's most dominant and commonly seen mega evolution. It also appreciates the ability to check rising threats in Weavile, Gyarados, and Keldeo, and also is appreciated by teams for its ability to check rain teams fairly well. There is no reason to drop this to B-, especially if you specifically say that you can't put a finger on what makes you think a drop is needed.

I'm sorry if this post was rude or abrasive, but I wanted to voice disagreement against your points, because I strongly believe that a lot of the arguments you brought to the table were fairly flawed. The only Pokemon you brought up that I think could drop, because I really don't see any reason to currently see drops for the likes of Omastar, Hippowdon, Talonflame, and Rotom-W. Dropping mons by as many subranks as you're suggesting is also heavily discouraged, as very little can realistically happen in one shift for mons like Omastar and Hippowdon to go all the way from C+ to unranked, and for Rotom-W to go from the top of the B ranks to the bottom.

 

[Astoria]

Magnezone A- -> B+

Being my first post at Smogon i want to talk about Magnezone and why it should drop to B+. Despite being one of the best trappers in OU Magnezone is not as good anymore as it used to be, especially in this metagame. Its offensive capabilities lies in traping steel types and eliminating them for mons that need em gone. However Dugtrio easily outclasses Magnezone by far.

Going through the steel types Magnezone could trap in the Viability Ranking it starts of by Magearna. The AV set does not even get 2HKOed by Specs and can just freely switch out with Volt Switch while the Shift Gear set can usually kill Magnezone with (Z-)Focus Blast.
Next one is Celesteela. Tbh most of the times Magnezone wins against it and can trap it sucessfully if it isnt the offensive one. The offensive one outspeeds any set but scarf and does 80-95% with Fire Blast.
I guess i dont have to talk about Heatran so lets get on to Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn is mostly run on rain teams right now as rain became very prominent in OU. A knocked of Specs Magnezone in Rain when Leech Seeded can't even 4HKO Ferrothorn. Ofc as Rain Stops Magnezone usually sucsessfully traps Ferrothorn.
Next is Skarmory which is either on Stall with Shed Shell or on HO with Spikes. The first one can't be trapped and the 2nd one wants to die anyways. SpDef Jirachi doesnt get 2HKOed either and can stall it out with Wish

So the only Steel types Mag can really trap are Celesteela, Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor. All of them only with headache though as Offensive Celesteela kills it, Ferrothorn might potentially stall out a weakened one and Mega Scizor can U-Turn on the switch-in. I am also questioning which good sweepers right now really care about those mons beeing gone. The most used Setup Sweepers like Volcarona and Celesteela do not need those steel types being gone. DD Zygarde might appreciate the removal of M-Scizor or Ferro but usually gets answered by Tangrowth (ez counter to Mag also), Lando and Mew. Other Mons like Latios or Lele (which both can take care of themselves against those 3mons with (Z-)Tbolt and HP Fire) prefer Dugtrio trapping for them as it can remove Heatran, Tyranitar, Magearna and Jirachi. SD Mawile also doesn't care about them having Fire Fang or TPunch. Also Wallbreakers/Sweepers like M-Pinsir, Garchomp, Landorous and Tapu Bulu can break through Steel types for themself or for their team. M-Pinsir with +2 CC, Garchomp with Firium Z, Lando with either Smack Down or Flynium/Rockium Z and SD Bulu with Fightium Z. That leaves only mons like SSS Salamence, SSS Gyarados, Weavile, Mimikyu, Excadrill, etc but they are all found in B-Rank anyways which is why i think Magnezone deserves a spot there too.

Also ground types are very prominent rn. This keeps Magnezone from using Volt Switch or Tbolt as it gives free switch-ins to 3 of the most used mons in Lando, Zygarde and Garchomp. Also the much used Tangrowth and other mons like M-Manectric, M-Venusaur, Zard-X, M-Swampert, Amoonguss and Excadrill can easily pivot into Magnezone. Lastly Magnezone itself gets easily trapped by Dugtrio which had a Usage stat in WCop of over 20%.

In conclusion I think that Magnezone is a very very good mon but not right now. Wallbreaking got much more effective with Z-Moves making trapping steel types with Mag unnecessary. Also Dugtrio is a much better trapper for the more used mons like Lele, Latios, Volcarona, etc. as stated before and also gets rid of Magnezone itself. Yes some mons heavily appreciate or even need Magnezones trapping capabilities but this is one reason why they are B-Rank or lower.

 

[xyclone147]

This is a nomination done by many people already, but I feel I should share my input:

Mega Venusaur: B- ----> B/B+

I feel like B/B+ is a much more appropriate rating for Mega Venusaur atm. Mega Venusaur is an incredible defensive pokemon that has adapted to meta game changes much better than other B- Pokemon, like Mega-Charizard, Salamence, and Omastar. It has done a great job providing a decent answer to mega tyranitar, and can check a lot of prominent pokemon like Greninja, Clefable, Keldeo, Mega Scizor (with HP fire), etc. It will also do great against the soon to be bane of OU, Mega Lopunny. It Resists it fighting stabs thanks to its poison typing, and tanks its normal stab well, and can dish back damage with sludge bomb and giga drain. It also is a solid answer to the few good Ice types like Weavile, Mamoswine, and Kyurem-B, and doesn't get destroyed by fire type attacks thanks to its ability, Thick fat. This is especially useful when Volcarona is a very popular fire type that loves to spam Fire Blast. It can also use leech seed to do chip damage and heal up a little as well, and it also has access to reliable recover in synthesis. It can easily take care of 3/4 of the Tapus, the only one it cannot handle is Tapu Lele, because of it's unfortunate psychic weakness. It also destroys Mega-Swampert, and can tank everything it throws at it. Overall, and underrated and underranked mega, It deserves to be B rank, maybe even B+

I can definitely support this. Its ability is the perfect thing to help neuter the ability to OHKO (Thick Fat), and its moves/stats help to keep it healthy and functioning for a match. While on paper it doesn't seem that special, in a match it turns out to have better survivability and recovery, especially for a Mega. Being able to force Pokemon out is a boon for a lot of teams too, since it's often on teams that use hazards. That and its ability to devastate most of the Tapus with STAB Sludge Bomb is a hit for most Pokemon trying to face it, as at least one of the Tapus tend to be on nearly every single team.

Its use definitely deserves a bump from B- to either B or B+. While it's not the 'best' Mega for the tier, it is definitely one that is hard to put down and keep itself going.

 

[Gatorboy]

I have hard time believing that Dragalge is unranked. This mon does really well in this meta, deserving C+ or even higher.

Since metagross ban everything went well for this mon. Gengar, nihilego, and other posion types went down in usage, leaving much room for Tspikes support. Volcarona is not used as much so you don't have to be afraid about Z-Psychic. Most spammed mons like Zaptos, Koko, ZardY, Bulu, Keldeo are beaten by it. Rain is more popular so another thing able to come on specs hydro is needed. Dragalge is suprisingly good right now.

Tspikes are godlike right now. Well played can poison Mew, Fini, Tangrowth and bring them down to the point the cannot wall anything (tangrowth takes almost from scarf keldeo if rocks and tspikes are up). Since half of meta has bad matchup against dragalge it is to lay them down.

And now some replays showing how much support gives and how good dragalge is:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-598473284
Thanks to Tspikes Heracross is able to murder half of enemy's team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-598468323
After ground types are dead, dragalge almost deals with rest of rain team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-598453890
Same deal. Excadrill dies, Tyranitar dies and suddenly nothing can deal damage to Dragalge.

This mon is way too solid to be unranked.

I agree with you, ever since seeing this post I've been on board and been using t spike drag + Vincune, and honestly its been amazing. Drag is a great pillow to a bunch of the tiers special attackers, like koko, tran, protean gren, keldeo, mega mane, serp, etc while also beating down on bulkier mons like fini, bulu, growth, ferrothorn, etc while also having an offensive presence with its strong STABs and adaptability. I feel like C+ is a stretch, but I'm all for it. C rank seems perfect imo.

Here is a replay of it setting up t spike against Tangrowth and letting Suicune win
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-599652484

And here it gets 2 kills (1 surprise kill against gyara, showing off its power) and checking koko perfectly
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-600335828

 

[Dreadfury]

Speaking of Omastar...

Omastar B- ---> C / C- / UR
I get it. Shell Smash and Swift Swim. However, there are better Swift Swimmers that hit hard, most notably Kingdra. Also, Bulu's rise hurts too, as it is easily the best Grass-type in the tier. Also, Omastar has been ranked too high in general. It could be argued that Minior is a better Shell Smasher and that isn't ranked either. Omastar is just way too high in VR than it should be and should have dropped a long time ago.

Absolutely not. Omastar is admittedly fine where it is but, if anything, it could even rise a subrank. Rain is extremely solid ATM and Omastar's niche is influential enough to warrant it remaining where it is. Not only is it a Shell Smasher with Swift Swim, but it's a Shell Smasher with Swift Swim that, because of Shell Smash, can break past every common answer to rain teams.

It's got enough bulk to live most neutral hits and if it gets its Shell Smash off while Pelipper's valuable rain is active there is nothing that can switch in on this thing. Period. Chansey has just shy of a 97% chance of being 2HKOed by just the Hydro Pump alone and is forced to predict it getting a Substitute off if the Chansey user wants to try banking on a miss (in which case that Chansey is nothing but dead weight as Omastar gets a second Shell Smash off and no longer needs its rain support to 6-0 you). Ferrothorn takes almost half from +2 Omastar without rain and is almost guaranteed to be OHKOed by a rain-boosted Hydro Vortex. Kingdra's devoted counter and Mega Swampert's best check are both completely annihilated by a +2 Omastar.

Bulu's rise doesn't really hurt Omastar more than it hurts rain in general. Bulu is still terrified of taking Pelipper's Hurricane and Kingdra's Ice Beam, and it's not doing anything to stop Omastar. A +2 rain boosted Hydro Pump and a +2 Hydro Vortex both cleanly OHKO Bulu as well. With some chip damage Bulu even fears Ancient Power.

I don't disagree that Kingdra and Mega Swampert are better Swift Swimmers overall. But Omastar has a clear niche in that it covers the only two devoted answers to that core very comfortably, and a niche that important to a playstyle as powerful as rain offense is accurately reflected by Omastar's placing in B- or even B.

It shouldn't drop. It shouldn't drop far enough to be unranked. And it especially shouldn't be compared to the hot garbage that is Minior in OU.

 

[UltraBallz]

Absolutely not. Omastar is admittedly fine where it is but, if anything, it could even rise a subrank. Rain is extremely solid ATM and Omastar's niche is influential enough to warrant it remaining where it is. Not only is it a Shell Smasher with Swift Swim, but it's a Shell Smasher with Swift Swim that, because of Shell Smash, can break past every common answer to rain teams.

It's got enough bulk to live most neutral hits and if it gets its Shell Smash off while Pelipper's valuable rain is active there is nothing that can switch in on this thing. Period. Chansey has just shy of a 97% chance of being 2HKOed by just the Hydro Pump alone and is forced to predict it getting a Substitute off if the Chansey user wants to try banking on a miss (in which case that Chansey is nothing but dead weight as Omastar gets a second Shell Smash off and no longer needs its rain support to 6-0 you). Ferrothorn takes almost half from +2 Omastar without rain and is almost guaranteed to be OHKOed by a rain-boosted Hydro Vortex. Kingdra's devoted counter and Mega Swampert's best check are both completely annihilated by a +2 Omastar.

Bulu's rise doesn't really hurt Omastar more than it hurts rain in general. Bulu is still terrified of taking Pelipper's Hurricane and Kingdra's Ice Beam, and it's not doing anything to stop Omastar. A +2 rain boosted Hydro Pump and a +2 Hydro Vortex both cleanly OHKO Bulu as well. With some chip damage Bulu even fears Ancient Power.

I don't disagree that Kingdra and Mega Swampert are better Swift Swimmers overall. But Omastar has a clear niche in that it covers the only two devoted answers to that core very comfortably, and a niche that important to a playstyle as powerful as rain offense is accurately reflected by Omastar's placing in B- or even B.

It shouldn't drop. It shouldn't drop far enough to be unranked. And it especially shouldn't be compared to the hot garbage that is Minior in OU.

Omastar 100% deserves to drop somewhere into the C ranks in my opinion. Most (I think all) of the arguments that have been made so far in favor of star have to do with its ability to beat common rain checks (namely ferro and chansey). The problem I have with this argument is that Swampert also beats both of these mons if using Superpower. Jolly Pert's eq+spower does like 90 min to ferro and boosted waterfall +spower does 96 min to chansey. So I dont ever understand why it would be worth giving up one of the best two rain sweepers in order to kill mons that you can beat anyway with one moveslot. And I'm not saying you have to run superpower on Swampert since a lot of them don't, but if you find yourself struggling with Ferro why would it be beneficial to lose kingdra or pert (or ash gren I guess) to use Omastar who is in general much less consistent when you can just use spower instead? And using Omastar in addition to these two makes a team very redundant. If anything the rain abuser that could find a niche for itself over the pert+kingdra combo would be one that could reliably take out AV tang which even pert cant do reliably with ice punch. I think its like a 1% roll to 2HKO after rocks (jolly of course because that is much better right now). The problem is even +2 zmove in the rain from Star doesnt reliably take out tang.

Now that I talked a bit about Swampert I want to move on to Star in general. Since it doesn't hold a boosting item (like kingdra's specs) it kinda relies on getting a smash off to hit as hard as it wants too. This makes it less consistent then the best rain abusers who can come in and start throwing off attacks. Of course omastar doesn't need to set up but the power difference between it and kingdra, ash gren, and pert is noticible if it doesn't. Also, if it doesn't get a smash off it is still slower than evey single relevant scarfer in OU and gets tossed by the most common ones like keldeo, chomp, and latios. Pert and Kingdra can win games just as easily as Star can but they dont require you to set up to do so.

Finally, stall is a very hard matchup in general for rain and Omastar is the only relevant rain abuser that gets trapped by sash dug (reversal or eq+sucker). Using omastar makes a hard matchup even worse.

And I know usage isnt everything but so far in World Cup rain (pelliper) has been brought 15 times (not to mention a 67% win rate) yet Omastar has been brought a grand total of zero times. The best players arent using it over the common rain cores. Thats because they can still beat the things that supposedly give Omastar a niche without forcing yourself to use an inconsistent pokemon.

TL;DR: Omastar has practically no niche in OU over the combination of better mons like Pert+Dra since they can beat the things Omastar would be used for anyways

 

[NG Spencer]

Amoongus A- -> B/B-

This mon has stayed at the same rank since day one, and I think its definitely time for it to change. Amoongus just isn't nearly as good as staple mons for certain playstyles like sableye and pelliper or as good as mons like clef and lati that can fit onto a much wider range of teams. Amoongus just isn't as good as it was last gen, it still has the same problem of being an extremely passive and slow mon, but now it faces a lot of competition from other grasses in the meta. The main niche amoonguss has is being able to put a mon to bed and sponge hits from the likes of gren and koko. But, why would I use amoonguss for this when I could use tangrowth, ferrothorn, venusaur, or even bulu in a pinch. Clearly I am not the only one who thinks this considering amoonguss was used a grand total of 6 times in world cup with a win ratio of 50%. The w/l ratio is fine, however the usage is an indicator that good players feel little reason to use this mon, especially if you compare it to other mons in A- like the aforementioned clefable who was used 37 times. Not only that, but mega venusaur, a mon who is for some reason an entire rank below amoonguss was used 15 times with a win ratio of 53.33%. Amoongus is a very passive mon, to put into perspective, it loses 1v1 to av tang unless it is running sludge bomb. As mentioned before, there is a huge opportunity cost to using amoonguss as your bulky grass type. Tangrowth is a much more splashable mon that serves as a ground resist that can also take on magearna much better. Venusaur is actually capable of countering non-extrasensory gren, mawile and any magearna while being having options to defeat its would be counters with hp fire, earthquake, leech seed or even knock off. Ferrothorn is able to tank 1k arrows while simultaneously getting up hazards and can actually beat rain teams (amoongus is spike bait for ferrothorn, plus with kokos electric terrain up, amoongus cant go for spore, meaning it cannot for the life of it stop kingdra wo hax). Tang, ferro and venu do all of this while being much more offensively threatening, meaning mons actually dislike switching into them, while if a mon that will do nothing that game gets put to sleep, amoonguss becomes free switchin for too many threats in the tier. Finally while tapu bulu is undoubtedly less bulky when running its sd sets, its typing allows it to effectively switch into zygardes and ash greninja on offensive teams, all while healing itself and teammates like heatran with its grassy terrain and is able to blow through the opponents team with its hard hitting moves. In addition, amoonguss just simply isn't as good as it was last gen, with toxapex taking its place on stall and tang taking its place on bo teams (sometimes venu and ferro). It is for those reasons that I feel a drop is more than necessary.