Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Gary]

Well I tried giving Mega Beedrill another chance because it had been like 4 months since I initially blacklisted, but I guess I had too much faith in people not trying to overrate what is almost an unviable Pokemon at this point.

Mega Beedrill has been placed back on the blacklist and wont be coming off.

 

[Toshiro46]

Given the rise of Fire-types, is there any place for Chandelure on the VR in the C/C- range? Scarf Chandy is a hard counter to non-Earthquake Zard-Y and Dugtrio can only check Chandy if it's Focus Sash is still intact. Chandelure isn't completely useless outside of this niche as the raw power and coverage from Shadow Ball and Fire Blast makes it a difficult mon to switch in to (plus Trick for bulky foes). It's a specific niche, but Chandelure is the best offensive switch in to Zard-Y out there.

You know Chandelure just switches out on Dug, right, due to being a Ghost and all? Not to mention that most if not all Dugs on CharY teams are groundium, which means you can outspeed with scarf and KO it anyway.

Other than that, I can see your reasoning.

252 SpA Flash Fire Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 154-182 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery.

It can straight up 6-0 standard CharY Balance - Toxapex is the best check to it on that team and gets 2HKOed - because Flash Fire + Sun + 145 SpA hits stupid hard. Doing that to one of the best teams in the meta rn is worthy of a place in the rankings imo.

Chandelure UR -> C-: Agree

Going back to Alolan Ninetales, I don't think there's a whole lot to say. Veil Offense is the best HO style in the meta and A-Ninetales is the face of it. And comparing it to Smeargle as a lead for HO teams, it just does more. Unlike Smeargle, it's the only mon that can set its enabling move. Unlike Smeargle, it can come in multiple times throughout a match to do so. Unlike Smeargle, it has an incredible speed tier. Unlike Smeargle, it actually provides stuff other than its enabling move: It's one of the best offensive rain checks in the tier, able to OHKO the setter and one of the two primary abusers with freeze dry while 2HKOing the other main abuser (unless it runs SpA EVs instead of HP EVs, in which case a OHKO is possible). It also provides some amount of defensive utility against dark, dragon, bug, and ice type moves. Ninetales does way more for more its team than Smeargle ever did, and its viability should reflect that it's not just a suicide lead.

Alolan Ninetales B- -> B: Agree

 

[AustinXX555]

Welp, might as well put my hat into the ring. I'm just gonna go over my thoughts on the current ranks in discussion.

Mew A -> A- Agree

Although Mew is a great utility-mon in the current meta, there is one major problem I can see for Mew, and that's wall breakers. Wall breakers such as Hoopa-U, and Mega Gard with Shadow Ball, can easily break Mew. (252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 240 HP / 140 SpD Mew: 184-217 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 4.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, 252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 240 HP / 72+ Def Mew: 486-572 (121.1 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO) This is no thanks to its base 100 defenses, which aren't bad by any means, but still leave it much more vulnerable than your average stallmon. Other sweepers like Greninja and Gengar practically force Mew to swap out. So although Mew has fantastic utility, the flaws shown here are why I agree with this possible drop.

Mega Heracross A -> B+ Unsure

I've never really used Mega Hera on an OU team, so I don't really have a solid opinion about it. However I can see an argument for both ways. On one hand, you have a mega with a fantastic Atk stat, can make use of the scummy multi-hitters, and has a great offensive type. On the other hand, you have a slow tank, in a tier where Landorous-T, Magearna, and Volcarona run rampant in, and has a terrible defensive type of Bug-Fighting. Again I'm not sure.

Alolan Ninetails B- -> B Agree

Despite its type, Alolan Ninetails has some really good things going for it, Aurora Veil being the biggest thing it has going for it. The fact that you can setup a reflect and light screen on the same turn is incredible for the tier, especially in doubles. This is greatly appreciated with almost any pokemon. Setup sweepers now have more potential, walls are basically immortal, and bulky attackers can destroy teams. Alolan Ninetails also makes a reliable Nasty Plot user, meaning it can hold its own ground as a possible sweeper for teams. For those reasons, I agree with the possible rise.

Mega Camerupt C+ -> B- Somewhat Agree

Like Mega Heracross, I can see a reason for both sides here. Mega Camperupt though in a nutshell is basically a poor man's ZardY, but it is a viable alternative due to some reasons. For one Sheer Force allow its 90 base Earth Power and Flamethrower to hit even harder. It also has good 70/100/105 defensive stats, allowing Camerupt to deal with possible checks that aren't water types. Camerupt also has gets Fash Cannon, which allows it to check common Fairies such as Mimikyu, Tapu Lele, and Clefable. But then on the other hand, it has a 4 times weakness to water, somewhat shallow coverage, and a base speed that even Mega Abomasnow laughs at. However, I think the good slightly out weighs the negative, so I guess I agree with the possible rise.

And those are my thoughts, see ya at the next changes.

 

[Deleted User 400951]

Welp, might as well put my hat into the ring. I'm just gonna go over my thoughts on the current ranks in discussion.

Mew A -> A- Agree

Although Mew is a great utility-mon in the current meta, there is one major problem I can see for Mew, and that's wall breakers. Wall breakers such as Hoopa-U, and Mega Gard with Shadow Ball, can easily break Mew. (252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 240 HP / 140 SpD Mew: 184-217 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 4.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, 252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 240 HP / 72+ Def Mew: 486-572 (121.1 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO) This is no thanks to its base 100 defenses, which aren't bad by any means, but still leave it much more vulnerable than your average stallmon. Other sweepers like Greninja and Gengar practically force Mew to swap out. So although Mew has fantastic utility, the flaws shown here are why I agree with this possible drop.

First of all, I don't know why so many people are making this mistake but it's A+ to A. That being said, I take significant issue with this nomination. The wallbreakers you mention are pretty much irrelevant in the current meta and see almost no usage. And 100/100/100 is actually good bulk in this meta, and Psychic typing lets it take on Mega Medi, who is still pretty relevant. I don't exactly know why Mew is being considered for a drop and I personally am 100% against it, as it blankets checks a lot of things with its 100/100/100 bulk and Psychic typing and has unmatched versatility. People are beginning to discover options like Volt Switch, which only makes it even more versatile. It's the best defogger in the tier right now and it also sets rocks pretty well.

 

[stexx]

Welp, might as well put my hat into the ring. I'm just gonna go over my thoughts on the current ranks in discussion.

Alolan Ninetails B- -> B Agree

Despite its type, Alolan Ninetails has some really good things going for it, Aurora Veil being the biggest thing it has going for it. The fact that you can setup a reflect and light screen on the same turn is incredible for the tier, especially in doubles. This is greatly appreciated with almost any pokemon. Setup sweepers now have more potential, walls are basically immortal, and bulky attackers can destroy teams. Alolan Ninetails also makes a reliable Nasty Plot user, meaning it can hold its own ground as a possible sweeper for teams. For those reasons, I agree with the possible rise.

And those are my thoughts, see ya at the next changes.

Aurora Veil is the only good thing going for A-Ninetails, and the meta is quickly finding a way to shut down the overhyped mon, mainly by running multiple defoggers (no rocks) type teams, like NJNPs, which I myself have been using with great success. Teams built around A-Ninetails usually have frail set-up mons and lack bulk, because they rely on Veil for it, so once you shut down their source of life they become rather easy to beat, so with that in mind I wouldn't scale A-Ninetails upwards any more than she already has.

 

[Spoons of Justice]

Welp, might as well put my hat into the ring. I'm just gonna go over my thoughts on the current ranks in discussion.

Mew A -> A- Agree

Although Mew is a great utility-mon in the current meta, there is one major problem I can see for Mew, and that's wall breakers. Wall breakers such as Hoopa-U, and Mega Gard with Shadow Ball, can easily break Mew. (252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 240 HP / 140 SpD Mew: 184-217 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 4.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, 252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 240 HP / 72+ Def Mew: 486-572 (121.1 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO) This is no thanks to its base 100 defenses, which aren't bad by any means, but still leave it much more vulnerable than your average stallmon. Other sweepers like Greninja and Gengar practically force Mew to swap out. So although Mew has fantastic utility, the flaws shown here are why I agree with this possible drop.

Mega Heracross A -> B+ Unsure

I've never really used Mega Hera on an OU team, so I don't really have a solid opinion about it. However I can see an argument for both ways. On one hand, you have a mega with a fantastic Atk stat, can make use of the scummy multi-hitters, and has a great offensive type. On the other hand, you have a slow tank, in a tier where Landorous-T, Magearna, and Volcarona run rampant in, and has a terrible defensive type of Bug-Fighting. Again I'm not sure.

Alolan Ninetails B- -> B Agree

Despite its type, Alolan Ninetails has some really good things going for it, Aurora Veil being the biggest thing it has going for it. The fact that you can setup a reflect and light screen on the same turn is incredible for the tier, especially in doubles. This is greatly appreciated with almost any pokemon. Setup sweepers now have more potential, walls are basically immortal, and bulky attackers can destroy teams. Alolan Ninetails also makes a reliable Nasty Plot user, meaning it can hold its own ground as a possible sweeper for teams. For those reasons, I agree with the possible rise.

Mega Camerupt C+ -> B- Somewhat Agree

Like Mega Heracross, I can see a reason for both sides here. Mega Camperupt though in a nutshell is basically a poor man's ZardY, but it is a viable alternative due to some reasons. For one Sheer Force allow its 90 base Earth Power and Flamethrower to hit even harder. It also has good 70/100/105 defensive stats, allowing Camerupt to deal with possible checks that aren't water types. Camerupt also has gets Fash Cannon, which allows it to check common Fairies such as Mimikyu, Tapu Lele, and Clefable. But then on the other hand, it has a 4 times weakness to water, somewhat shallow coverage, and a base speed that even Mega Abomasnow laughs at. However, I think the good slightly out weighs the negative, so I guess I agree with the possible rise.

And those are my thoughts, see ya at the next changes.

These reasons are insufficient. I don't know if anyone reads the rules anymore, but according to one of the rules:

• When nominating a Pokemon, do not merely list its obvious qualities such as stats, typing, movepool, etc. If you think a Pokemon deserves to rise or drop, explain what has changed in the meta to cause such Pokemon to get better or worse.

This post is not a very productive one. You're just telling me what stats and moves the mon has. Yes, this is something everyone here knows, we can read stats on Bulbapedia. This isn't good enough. It's much like me saying "Kyurem-B is a mon who deserves to rise because of his 125/100/90 bulk and the fact that he has Teravolt." I'm simply restating facts everyone knows, which is unproductive. A more productive use of time would me discussing Kyurem-B's impact on the meta, such as "Kyurem-B is a mon who deserves to rise because his Icium-Z moveset is extremely difficult to wall by anyone in the meta, including the notorious Stall meta, which Kyurem-B is having better luck against because Dugtrio is not using Reversal as much. Additionally, Mega Lopunny, who can normally inhibit Kyurem-B, is seeing lesser usage." That is a post of better quality.

Please, read rules before posting.

 

[Leo]

Aurora Veil is the only good thing going for A-Ninetails, and the meta is quickly finding a way to shut down the overhyped mon, mainly by running multiple defoggers (no rocks) type teams, like NJNPs, which I myself have been using with great success. Teams built around A-Ninetails usually have frail set-up mons and lack bulk, because they rely on Veil for it, so once you shut down their source of life they become rather easy to beat, so with that in mind I wouldn't scale A-Ninetails upwards any more than she already has.

I find this reasoning against Ninetales rising to be quite flawed. First of all, Aurora Veil is indeed the only reason why Ninetales is ranked, but the Aurora Veil playstyle is just really effective atm and it relies on Ninetales setting up Veil so I think its ranking should reflect the viability of it, or at least to an extent. Teams using several Defoggers aren't as common as you make them out to be (outside of ilikepinkmons stall) and even if they were, the playstyle would adapt by running Bisharp or other Defog abusing mon. Ninetales also has a good matchup vs most of the relevant Defoggers thanks to Freeze Dry and Hypnosis so it could get Veil against let's say Mantine+Mew. Most of Ninetales teammates aren't frail set up sweepers by any means, but rather bulky set up sweepers that just become so hard to kill under Veil (see: Zygarde, Manaphy, Suicune, Mega Tyranitar etc just the bulkiest set up mons in the tier) so even if the Veil user didnt manage to set up Veil, they are slef sufficient and can sweep on their own given the right circunstances. I'm personally a Ninetales rise supporter because of how much usage it has gotten over the past couple of weeks and I think OLT's last cycle reflected that

tl;dr rise Ninetales

 

[Night Train Lane]

-> C+
that meme post really said everything there was to say. Although, It seems like whenever anyone has anything bad to say about this a large amount of people defend it. They say shit like it losing to 80% of the tier doesnt matter because...reasons. i dont think a mon that offers nearly no offensive presence and marginal defensive utility should be in B

-> C- fire stab, beats the celes/tang/tox core potentially. mage check, zardY check, beats mew. zygarde doesnt like switch in cuz ghost stab is annoying. Has an odd match up vs stall.

-> B+ this was always a B+ mon in my eyes. It belongs with other pokemon that lack consistency, but make up for being very good in specific match ups. sub is extremely annoying for bulkier teams which are finding its place amongst all the veil n shit. I dont find sd as good cuz its easier to revenge it than it is to not lose 2 pokemon when it subs on your tang.

tang is eh rn imo, camel is pretty cool. ninetails is dope asf. unrank bee. and rise my son Houndoom

 

[FatBagel]

Given the rise of Fire-types, is there any place for Chandelure on the VR in the C/C- range? Scarf Chandy is a hard counter to non-Earthquake Zard-Y and Dugtrio can only check Chandy if it's Focus Sash is still intact. Chandelure isn't completely useless outside of this niche as the raw power and coverage from Shadow Ball and Fire Blast makes it a difficult mon to switch in to (plus Trick for bulky foes). It's a specific niche, but Chandelure is the best offensive switch in to Zard-Y out there.

Problem is Banded TTar almost always comes with them, and Chandelure is easily Pursuit trapped.

 

[wisdom dog]

Problem is Banded TTar almost always comes with them, and Chandelure is easily Pursuit trapped.

I could be wrong, but I think duggy has largely replaced Ttar as a trapping partner for Char-Y.

 

[Phat Albert]

I could be wrong, but I think duggy has largely replaced Ttar as a trapping partner for Char-Y.

Several teams have resorted to running both Dugtrio and Tyranitar with Charizard Y, as Tyranitar helps vs some pokemon that Charizard struggles with that Dugtrio cannot trap, such as Latios.

 

[Deleted User 400951]

I could be wrong, but I think duggy has largely replaced Ttar as a trapping partner for Char-Y.

Both are used. Please learn the core before talking about it.

Aurora Veil is the only good thing going for A-Ninetails, and the meta is quickly finding a way to shut down the overhyped mon, mainly by running multiple defoggers (no rocks) type teams, like NJNPs, which I myself have been using with great success. Teams built around A-Ninetails usually have frail set-up mons and lack bulk, because they rely on Veil for it, so once you shut down their source of life they become rather easy to beat, so with that in mind I wouldn't scale A-Ninetails upwards any more than she already has.

this is just wrong. I'm gonna write more on this later but this is just wrong.
also gonna write more later on bisharp to b because it's longer overdue

 

[wisdom dog]

Thats my bad, I wasnt sure. I haven't seen a lot of TTar lately but i just probably wasnt paying a lot of attention or something.

 

[legend slayer]

Also, while im here i might as well advocate for nihilego maintaining his spot. While nihilego is one of my least facorite mons this gen, it does serve as one of the few scarfers that can reliably beat zard y(being able to switch in) , as well as having a spectacular special defense and health, able to tank hits rather well. Now he does get outclassed by virtually every other scarfer out there such as garchomp, keldeo, and kartana to name a few, but none of these can reliably beat zard y and each gets beat by moves virtually all run, whether it be his fire stab, solar beam and hp ice. Nihilego does, however, suffer from poor physical defense, a rather shallow movepool, and being reliably countered by zard ys teammates such as duggy or ttar. It also gets beat by many of the newer megas that were released, such as mega aggron and mega gallade quite easily. However, with the right support from your other mons, he is quite a good addition to any team.

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

Also, while im here i might as well advocate for nihilego maintaining his spot. While nihilego is one of my least facorite mons this gen, it does serve as one of the few scarfers that can reliably beat zard y(being able to switch in) , as well as having a spectacular special defense and health, able to tank hits rather well. Now he does get outclassed by virtually every other scarfer out there such as garchomp, keldeo, and kartana to name a few, but none of these can reliably beat zard y and each gets beat by moves virtually all run, whether it be his fire stab, solar beam and hp ice. Nihilego does, however, suffer from poor physical defense, a rather shallow movepool, and being reliably countered by zard ys teammates such as duggy or ttar. It also gets beat by many of the newer megas that were released, such as mega aggron and mega gallade quite easily. However, with the right support from your other mons, he is quite a good addition to any team.

So basically, it has a niche in theory, but it can't actually fulfill that niche in practice, and it also competes with better mons for that niche anyway. I think this argument offers incredibly little evidence in favor of Nihilego staying B-, most of which is vague hand-waving or a recitation of its apparent qualities. Most of the hits that it can tank, not that you mentioned any, are simply OHKOs after hazards or, at worst, 2HKOs (which can be said for other Choice Scarf users as well). Like, congratulations, it always lives an Ash-Greninja Water Shuriken from full...but so does Keldeo. Its old niche was checking Mega Charizard Y, but the rise of Dugtrio and Tyranitar as two of Zard Y's best partners means you will need to run another answer regardless. In fact Nihilego has the dubious honor of getting trapped by both, so there goes what was previously its most significant use in the meta. Great use of language when you mention its "rather shallow movepool" that literally leaves it walled by two entire types in Steel and Ground, both of which are highly prominent. Sure you can run Hidden Power Fire or Ice to somewhat handle one of the two but most teams have both. The only set I would consider using is some sort of cheese hazard setting variant considering the other sets have too much competition with zero surprise factor. If your idea of "the right support" is somehow eliminating its checks that happen to be some of the most annoying Pokemon in the tier regardless, then I'd prefer to at least run something with better payoff.

ty legend slayer

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

Eh, I'd at least cut legend some slack. If he's saying it's one of the better checks to Zard Y (basically the front runner of influx of Fire types currently in this meta), then maybe he's onto something? Idk, either way I've heard arguments pertaining to it as a TS absorber / hazard setter / stacker - and while they might be niche, I feel as though we've forgotten about them... which I don't quite think is fair.

My point is: I don't think a Nihi' drop is necessary ATM - although I wouldn't be devastated if it did drop. I just think there's a few things regarding the options it has that I think we've forgotten about, that's all.

On a slightly different note (this isn't actually a nom to drop OR rise): with said influx of Fire types and the effects that has come to influence the meta as it stands at this moment - does anyone think Talonfame will be moving from it's C- spot? Is it alike other Fire types that have come to tipify this moment? Or would rises to would be awnsers (Mantine; Slowbro; Gastro; Heatran; Zygarde etc.) be able to cut it off the bottom? It's been something that has been in the back of my mind for a couple of days now, and I'm curious to hear what others have to say :thinking:

TP Edit: Please don't talk about potential suspect tests

 

[Divine Retribution]

The point of this thread is to measure a Pokemon's viability in the current metagame, not attempt to predict the future.

That being said, I thought the C ranks were specifically for niche Pokemon that require lots of tailoring or team support to fit into a team, which it seems to me describes Nihilego perfectly. I don't know why it was ranked so high to begin with, it seems like it fares even worse pre Mega Metagross ban, but I wasn't really actively playing then so anything I say on the matter would just be theorymonning I guess.

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

Eh, I'd at least cut legend some slack. If he's saying it's one of the better checks to Zard Y (basically the front runner of influx of Fire types currently in this meta), then maybe he's onto something? Idk, either way I've heard arguments pertaining to it as a TS absorber / hazard setter / stacker - and while they might be niche, I feel as though we've forgotten about them... which I don't quite think is fair.

My point is: I don't think a Nihi' drop is necessary ATM - although I wouldn't be devastated if it did drop. I just think there's a few things regarding the options it has that I think we've forgotten about, that's all.

On a slightly different note (this isn't actually a nom to drop OR rise): with said influx of Fire types and the effects that has come to influence the meta as it stands at this moment - does anyone think Talonfame will be moving from it's C- spot? Is it alike other Fire types that have come to tipify this moment? Or would rises to would be awnsers (Mantine; Slowbro; Gastro; Heatran; Zygarde etc.) be able to cut it off the bottom? It's been something that has been in the back of my mind for a couple of days now, and I'm curious to hear what others have to say :thinking:

I like how you have to present your arguments as "so I've heard"-esque blanket statements since you actually have no idea whether they justify Nihilego staying in B- (they don't fyi). I literally just addressed why using Nihilego as a Zard Y check is asking to lose, since the recent trends around that mon basically deny Nihilego its niche and is one of the primary reasons why it should drop. As for being a Toxic Spikes absorber and hazard setter, I did say that this set was the only one I would ever use, and while it's technically not outclassed by anything you're almost always far better of using Toxapex or Greninja for Toxic Spikes. Nihilego is far worse defensively than the former and definitely less versatile offensively than the latter so it struggles to distinguish itself. And if you're not running Toxic Spikes on Nihilego then the mon serves literally no purpose, end of discussion.

 

[GJLimeade]

->B+
B rank seems a bit unfair for this mon IMO. Its damage output can be pretty underwhelming, but its speed tier is incredible for this meta and I still think it's a great option for teams in need of a reliable revenge killer. And as someone mentioned before it's got a plethora of options in Fake Out, PuP, Encore, and even Copycat.

Also seconding Chandelure. I thought that thing should've been ranked back when Pheromosa was still OU.

 

[Deleted User 400951]

Nihilego belongs in C+. It had two niches - checking Zard Y and Volcarona, and being a hazard setter, depending on the set. The Scarf set is the Zard Y/Volcarona checker, and it is pretty damn bad at it. Zard Y always goes with Dugtrio and T-tar, both of which destroy Nihilego. This isn't to mention that Zard Y tends to fit on balance teams, which Nihilego doesn't do well against. Wait, you know what else it doesn't do well against? Pretty much the rest of the entire tier, that's what. Rock/Poison is just a really bad typing right now, and its physical bulk exacerbates this. The hazard setter set is pretty much outdone by any other hazard setter. The only real advantage is T Spikes & SR, but Gren's T Spikes and Spikes are better.

Also, some more nominations:
Mega Scizor to A-: The Swords Dance set has returned with a vengeance. AV teams are smashed to bits by it. What else is? T-tar, for one. That's pretty big for such a common mon right now (which I believe should rise). Another? Z Koko if it's boosted, as +2 BP 2hkoes with Rocks up. These 3 trends are the biggest ones going on right now, and they put Mega Scizor above Weavile, Tornadus-Therian, Kartana, and Rotom Wash onto the level of Skarm and Chansey in my eyes.
K, I understand. It doesn't need a rise right now I guess. It's just that a ton of people all around are saying "it 6-0s av rise" so I guess I was hasty and bandwagoned too soon in spite of what I had thought earlier. sorry.

Bisharp to B: I've been pushing for this for a while now, and it's long overdue. So much is going against it right now. Webs died off a while back, and this was only truly good on them. Zard Y balance eats this for breakfast. On AV it's good, but against AV it's not for sure. Rain also murders it entirely, with Mega Pert showing no mercy and even Kingdra killing it:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 316-373 (116.6 - 137.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Koko is also beginning to carry D-Gleam and HP Fire,
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 183-216 (67.5 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 185-218 (68.2 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Oh, and Wild Charge messes with it too:
252 Atk Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp in Electric Terrain: 204-240 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Literally nothing good is going for it right now. It's long overdue for a drop.

Koko to A+: I know that Vertex made this nomination before me, but this needs to happen. Z Wild Charge is just straight up insane right now. AV dies, Zard Y Balance is completely destroyed, it beats Pelipper, it beats everything that should normally beat Koko. I can't think of a single play style that doesn't have trouble with this right now. Of Tox/Tang/Celes, none of them get off safe.

I also agree with Chandeure getting ranked and, well, pretty much all of Vertex's nominations. Manaphy is a god under AV, so is Conkeldurr. Mega Lopunny was underestimated because each of its sets messes up another play style entirely. Everything he nominated to drop honestly deserves it, etc.

I'm still gonna advocated Breloom to UR, because it's honestly terrible right now and I'm seeing 0 reason to use it. It's deadweight vs offense - I mean completely deadweight, it's just too slow and it'll never get off a spore because just about everything on offense 1 shots it - while not breaking through Celes/Tox/Tang at all, meaning that balance and stall laugh too. Why this has stayed on the rankings at all is beyond me.

I also think that Mega Manectric belongs in B-. I love a pivot that can't get out of Dugtrio! Even if Z Ground is the shit these days, it's still trapped. Why? Because Mega Mane is hilariously weak:
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dugtrio: 180-214 (85.3 - 101.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Yup! It can't even OHKO without SR (which isn't gonna be up against Zard Y balance) without a high roll. I also love how hilariously outperformed it is by Koko because Koko is stronger and far more versatile. You know, Koko does more damage vs Duggy...
252 Atk Tapu Koko Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dugtrio: 207-244 (98.1 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
And it can at least pivot out thanks to U-Turn. This is in addition to there being more and more megas out there to compete with Mega Mane. Charizard Y is the most notable of these, and Mega Swampert is also notable. Both of these are much, much better than Mega Manectric. Oh, let's not forget that Rain in fact actually beats Mega Manectric because of Mega Swampert and Kingdra taking zilch from it, outspending and OHKOing through that pathetic special bulk. Oh, and Ash Gren can just use this magical move called Water Shuriken so that speed difference matters not:
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manectric-Mega in Rain: 306-363 (108.8 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
In addition, there are still other megas that are rising and much better than it. Mega Lopunny is a rising star for its ability to harass either offense or balance depending on its sets, while Mega Pinsir and Mega T-tar do super well under AV.
Mega Manectric's power issue is even more present against AV, so that's no good for it either.
Admittedly, it breaks through Tang/Tox/Celes very well, 2HKOing each of them (unless it runs Flamethrower, which ruins its ability to break through Tang and thus imo should not be used). However, that's one trend vs multiple against it. This needs to drop.

That's it for now.

Mod Edit: If you minimod one more time you're getting an infraction.

 

[AustinXX555]

Bisharp to B: I've been pushing for this for a while now, and it's long overdue. So much is going against it right now. Webs died off a while back, and this was only truly good on them. Zard Y balance eats this for breakfast. On AV it's good, but against AV it's not for sure. Rain also murders it entirely, with Mega Pert showing no mercy and even Kingdra killing it:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 316-373 (116.6 - 137.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Koko is also beginning to carry D-Gleam and HP Fire,
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 183-216 (67.5 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 185-218 (68.2 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Oh, and Wild Charge messes with it too:
252 Atk Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp in Electric Terrain: 204-240 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Literally nothing good is going for it right now. It's long overdue for a drop.

I agree with the Bisharp drop. Ground and Fire types are just way too common in the tier right now, and Bisharp's poor SpD stat only makes it worse for it against the likes of Volcarona, ZardY, and Heatran. Ground types such as Dugtrio, Landorous-T, and Zygarde also run rampant in the tier, and Bisharp's Def sadly doesn't make up for it. (252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 408-482 (150.5 - 177.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO, 252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 404-476 (149 - 175.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO, 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 390-458 (143.9 - 169%) -- guaranteed OHKO). The final nail on the coffin is its Fighting weakness, and although Fighting isn't as common as Fire and Ground, it's still a 4 times weakness causing it to lose against Mega Gallade, Mega Medicham, and Mega Heracross. These wouldn't be such a problem if it weren't for the fact that it's painfully slow, and no where near bulky enough to make up for it. The only thing that Bisharp can do is maybe predict a Fire Type by using Rock Slide, and Fighting types with Psycho Cut, but that's about it.

 

[bludz]

SD Scizor is dead dude. Like its legitimately just bad now. Toxapex walls it indefinitely and Celesteela comes pretty close to shutting it down completely as well. These are extremely common on defensive cores. There are plenty of other meta trends that suck for it like fast wisp Mew and the prevalence of Fire type breakers, just to name a couple.

This is coming from someone who had some alright results with it earlier in the meta (think revenging Phero, setting up on MMeta), but I wouldn't even consider it now. Scizor's SD set is barely viable (if at all) and isn't a reason it should rise.

 

[tigers jaw]

Latios can't switch into attacks better then Latias. you will just get worn down way faster while Latias stays healthy.

"What's the point of using Latias instead of Latios if you're not running Healing Wish"

Well first off Healing Wish is not the only thing that Latias has over Latios. Latias can do the same role as Latios while only giving away a little bit of offensive presence. Latios also is not even strong enough to justify using it over Latias 100% of the time. some teams need Latios and some teams need Latias more. If it was up to me i would put Latias and Latios in the same rank but thats just my opinion so whatever. But i stand by my point Latias should at least be B rank alongside stuff like Jirachi, Serperior, Terrakion etc.

Nah, this post is just filled with falsehoods from top to bottom. Healing Wish is the only reason to use Latias over Latios, and you're either deluded or kidding yourself if you think otherwise. The set you posted previously is completely unviable and done far better by Latios, as it is the superior Pokemon barring Healing Wish.

This is my favourite part, and it really makes me wonder if you even consider what you're saying: "Latias can do the same role as Latios while only giving away a little bit of offensive presence." Huh? You're saying that Latias achieves the same things as Latios, except it's just a little bit shitter? Ok. Basically, your argument for a Latias rise comes down to it taking hits marginally better than Latios, which realistically doesn't allow it to check anything more than Latios does (see: one-time Zard-Y switchin if lacking Roost, none-Buzz Volcarona R-killer, and a Keldeo check) in an offensive metagame where a "marginal" (actually around 12%, iirc) damage difference is actually huge. There's a reason why everyone else has based their argument on the boon of Healing Wish, and it's because that is the exact reason why Latias should rise, and the only advantage Latias provides compared to Latios.

There's no way on Earth they should share the same rank, honestly. Latios has a plethora of other potential sets that Latias cannot run effectively, being Specs and the amount of viable Z-moves it can run, ranging from Drag-Z, Calm Mind+Psy-Z to help vs. the majority of stall builds by luring Clef and breaking balance when paired with the likes of Magnezone, and lures such as Litios. None of these warrant usage on Latias whatsoever.

fwiw I do think Latias should rise, and I was literally the first to say it.

Oh and also, regarding SD M-Zor. Yeah, it's totally unviable in the current meta, having tried to make so many builds work with it ranging from dual-trapper balance with Knock Off lures to remove Shed Shells from Skarmory and Toxapex, to more offensively-inclined teams, I can say this with certainty. It's an ORAS relic that needs to stop being perpetuated.

 

[MegaStarUniverse]

Nah, this post is just filled with falsehoods from top to bottom. Healing Wish is the only reason to use Latias over Latios, and you're either deluded or kidding yourself if you think otherwise. The set you posted previously is completely unviable and done far better by Latios, as it is the superior Pokemon barring Healing Wish.

This is my favourite part, and it really makes me wonder if you even consider what you're saying: "Latias can do the same role as Latios while only giving away a little bit of offensive presence." Huh? You're saying that Latias achieves the same things as Latios, except it's just a little bit shitter? Ok. Basically, your argument for a Latias rise comes down to it taking hits marginally better than Latios, which realistically doesn't allow it to check anything more than Latios does (see: one-time Zard-Y switchin if lacking Roost, none-Buzz Volcarona R-killer, and a Keldeo check) in an offensive metagame where a "marginal" (actually around 12%, iirc) damage difference is actually huge. There's a reason why everyone else has based their argument on the boon of Healing Wish, and it's because that is the exact reason why Latias should rise, and the only advantage Latias provides compared to Latios.

There's no way on Earth they should share the same rank, honestly. Latios has a plethora of other potential sets that Latias cannot run effectively, being Specs and the amount of viable Z-moves it can run, ranging from Drag-Z, Calm Mind+Psy-Z to help vs. the majority of stall builds by luring Clef and breaking balance when paired with the likes of Magnezone, and lures such as Litios. None of these warrant usage on Latias whatsoever.

fwiw I do think Latias should rise, and I was literally the first to say it.

Oh and also, regarding SD M-Zor. Yeah, it's totally unviable in the current meta, having tried to make so many builds work with it ranging from dual-trapper balance with Knock Off lures to remove Shed Shells from Skarmory and Toxapex, to more offensively-inclined teams, I can say this with certainty. It's an ORAS relic that needs to stop being perpetuated.

you can have your opinion on this and i will have mines. healing wish is not the only reason to use latias over latios but i guess since no one is actually understanding what im trying to say i will end this discussion about it here.

 

[Colonel M]

I don't want to make a concrete argument as of yet, but I do think Mega Scizor could go back to A-. As of late in olt Mega Scizor has popped its head in and can be a defensive pain in the ass for some teams to handle. The Fire-types definitely are a major issue for Mega Scizor and it can be pressured from Roosting or Defogging, but it is pretty nice now that Mega Lopunny is back in the tier.

If anything I would argue Mega Scizor up for its defensive and utility capabilities way before Swords Dance.