CAP 1 Smogon's First "Create a Pokemon": Reflections, Opinions, and Closing

[EconBiscuit]

Then coop, remove Ice Fang. I believe you should have one or the other not both.

As for Rocko's work I think his pokes gives us a general idea of what we could aim for however we shouldn't stick to the actual main design, and the design should change as we alter different things to solve problems that may arise.

The problem with this time round was that the design and the moves e.t.c were getting made at the same time, rather than having a moveset then design, or have a design, then create a moveset, allowing for some lee-way on both sides.

 

[Cooper]

Okay.

 

[GengarCrysis92]

The whole point of the "Create A Pokemon" is to avoid what you're doing. However, you're doing it even worse with what WOTC calls "top-down" designing, which is taking a picture and designing the pokemon to go along with it. Seriously, I understand you like Rocko's work, but that doesn't mean we have to design a whole pokedex for it. If we were doing that, I'd rather go with these pokemon.

Ice Punch needs to stay. It's the only viable physical Ice move, especially considering the only other one is Ice Shard, which serves a different purpose.

Idk what or who WOTC is, but w/e. And its not a WHOLE dex, its like 10 Pokemon. And if you were to Poll them, I bet that a lot of People would want to create them. And you don't necessarily have to start off with making the Polls for types. You can make Evos/Pre-Evos and then add or lose types. And what is so wrong with "top-down" designing? I mean, if you start with a concept, then move to a Pic, then go to typing, then that leaves, dex entries, movepool, evos/pre-evos, testing etc. Its basically the same exact thing as you did, except not starting with a type poll. I mean, it is a lot better to start off with a concept then going from total scratch. Real designers don't really mkae scratch. Their IDEAS are scratch, but they don't go around thinking of types at first. The first thing they do is come up with a concept. Then they decide where it should fit, then comes the typing.

 

[Musashi1054]

I just want to say that, people who want to make evos for pre-existing pokes should not be participating in Smogon's Create-a-Pokemon polls. The reason is that these pokemon that we are creating are original, from scratch.

Now, I know that people want to make evos for some pokemon, but that's what a Smogon's Create-Evolutions-for-pre-existing-Pokemon polls are for (not that there is one, yet).

 

[Cooper]

Idk what or who WOTC is, but w/e.

Wizards of the Coast, the company who makes Magic: the Gathering.

And what is so wrong with "top-down" designing?

It restricts creativity. For example, say we decided to create Infernant. First off, we're basically restricted to Bug/Fire in terms of type. Next, he automatically gets anything involving a fist. Last, we know his shape, egg group, and it already has a dex description!

 

[GengarCrysis92]

Yes, but who says we have to use them? It could be part of the poll as an option. And who cares if we are restricted to Bug/Fire? We have over 100 Pokemon left to design. I mean, out of a possible 120 Pokemon, we created one, and only like 10 of Rocko's seem fit. That leaves 110 spots left [Really 109, but we already freely created Scylant, so Im not counting it] And yeah, I know there really is more Pokemon per new game, so that is even more creative freedom. 10 Pokemon that are already designed in terms of just the appearance isn't really that much if you think about it.

 

[RockoTheTaco]

Yes, but who says we have to use them? It could be part of the poll as an option. And who cares if we are restricted to Bug/Fire? We have over 100 Pokemon left to design. I mean, out of a possible 120 Pokemon, we created one, and only like 10 of Rocko's seem fit. That leaves 110 spots left [Really 109, but we already freely created Scylant, so Im not counting it] And yeah, I know there really is more Pokemon per new game, so that is even more creative freedom. 10 Pokemon that are already designed in terms of just the appearance isn't really that much if you think about it.

The next dex needs to be a number than ends in 8, so that we get back to blank-hundred and blankity-one rather than something random like 493.

 

[Cooper]

This program is supposed to leave everything up to our opinions, and voting on how best to design someone else's pokemon does not do that.

 

[Opterown]

I had this idea a time ago; why not let the next Create-a-poke be a competition? Now that the general community knows what the process is like, we should try to diversify the project, as having mod-driven polls gets rather stagnant after a while (14+ of them!).

It could be something like mtgthesource's Create a New Good Deck competition (see http://mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=46), except it's now Create a New Pokemon competition. Like, everyone who wishes to participate posts once only with one submission, detailing their pokemon, and, after a time (say a week for all the submissions to be given in) the mods/judges/whatever give each submission a score, as well as a community-wide poll as to which one seems the most flavorful/etc. This allows for people to not whine about how their suggestion's aren't nerfed, as they'll see it on-screen and get it judged. People like GengarCrysis can make their own poke. I think that OU would be the meta to aim for, as other entries would probably not appeal that much to the wider community. People can design in any way they want (solving previosu arguments). All the submissions can make up the dex, at the end (if wanted).

I was thinking, the submission post would include:
Name
Description
[Sprite/Picture]
Stat distribution
Level-up/Egg/TM Movelist
Dex Entries
[Analysis - using Smogon analysis style, similar to Sunday's]

People could make ONE new move/ability/item etc. but not more than one, as it gets too out of hand. For those in [], they would be optional since they'd require too much time, but inclusion would be great.

The judges (at least 5, experienced judges, with a Smogon Mod if possible for 'officiality') and the community-wide poll would judge the pokemon based on:
Flavour
Impact (too much is too bad, too little would probably nerf it. A position in mid-meta - say, Gliscor or Vaporeon level for OU - would be good)
Slickness of submission - ie typoes, etc

Any suggestions/comments/changes/etc?
I think this would really freshen this up a lot, and make it more involving for everyone. I wonder what the people who ran/liked this felt? Of course, it's open to changes.

 

[DiamondDust]

i would love to be a judge.

 

[futuresuperstar]

I really think we should just stick to the same process we already have. It is proven to work, and with a few minor adjustments can go even more smoothly. No reason for a competition or divide-and-conquer ideology.

 

[Opterown]

I really think we should just stick to the same process we already have. It is proven to work, and with a few minor adjustments can go even more smoothly. No reason for a competition or divide-and-conquer ideology.

However, there are some people who weren't so satisfied; and some that wish for different designs. I agree that the thing was, overall smooth, but it required a lot of work on the part of the minimods, and polls also aren't the best thing (Hyra's suggestions of no polls is good). For example, even though I wanted a bug it didn't turn out as good (as in flavorful) as I'd hoped. Others who voted for optionx in one poll and optiony in another might end up with x and a instead. Having a competition encourages greater input and discussions.

The proven to work thing isn't the best comparison either, as there's only been one. For example, I could show that mtgthesource's competition has been proven to work (3x) but that's not so relevant.

Also, I don't get your referral to the divide and conquer thing.

I still say we should try it, or at least have a poll (ha ha) on whether people think it's a good idea. I personally like it.

 

[futuresuperstar]

However, there are some people who weren't so satisfied; and some that wish for different designs. I agree that the thing was, overall smooth, but it required a lot of work on the part of the minimods, and polls also aren't the best thing (Hyra's suggestions of no polls is good). For example, even though I wanted a bug it didn't turn out as good (as in flavorful) as I'd hoped. Others who voted for optionx in one poll and optiony in another might end up with x and a instead. Having a competition encourages greater input and discussions.

I did not mean to not make any changes. I do think some adjustments need to be made, just not anything drastic, such as having a contest with submitted works, or basing creations off of something that already exists.

The proven to work thing isn't the best comparison either, as there's only been one. For example, I could show that mtgthesource's competition has been proven to work (3x) but that's not so relevant.

I say proven to work because this could have been a mess, but it did go fairly well, all things considered.

Also, I don't get your referral to the divide and conquer thing.

That was in reference to the idea of having everyone create their own addition to a new generation rather than collaborating one at a time.

 

[Cooper]

However, there are some people who weren't so satisfied; and some that wish for different designs. I agree that the thing was, overall smooth, but it required a lot of work on the part of the minimods, and polls also aren't the best thing (Hyra's suggestions of no polls is good). For example, even though I wanted a bug it didn't turn out as good (as in flavorful) as I'd hoped. Others who voted for optionx in one poll and optiony in another might end up with x and a instead. Having a competition encourages greater input and discussions.

First of all, no. Second, are the dissatisfied people you're referring to the six out of 160 people who voted? Because I think they're just a tad short of having the majority here. Third, there were no minimods, as everyone besides me had equal power (unlike your design where judges hold the reigns). Fourth, this idea would lead to complete disorganization of participants and many more 2009 joiners coming in with base 800 Ghost/Darks with Wonderguard, which would lead to a 20-page poll that eventually gets locked for not promoting intelligent discussion.

Did I mention that the answer is no?

 

[Opterown]

I don't understand why you're being so hostile towards the suggestion; the people who I said weren't totally satisfied were all those who didn't vote the first option; over 60%. That is quite the majority.
I'd also think that the 800-base stats would be given a direct zero by the judges, no? And, i think we could trust those judges, as we'd choose them from those with much credit (e.g. yourself, Sunday, a Smogon mod if possible, etc.) I don't see why them holding the power is such as bad thing, as obviously they know best.
Sorry about being mistaken about the minimod thing, it just seemed that several high-profile people did most of the discussion, and others weren't seen too much at all.
I also fail to see why there'd be a 20-page poll; the community would vote on a short-list which the judges would decide upon.

I don't know, maybe you could be less hostile next time? I actually don't see what the problem is, and the people I've spoken too seem to like the idea. You seem slightly pessimistic.
If not for the next create-a-poke, maybe the third - as by then some people (possibly) would be tired of this poll thing.
Oh whatever, do what you want. Twas just an idea. Maybe my post count deceives you? Don't hold that against me; it's no judge of skill, just spare time (note that I'm not volunteering to judge/mod this, so don't treat this as a power grab).
I'd still like to hear the opinions of anyone else around, especially others who've been involved with this.

Edit: @ futuresuperstar: the divide-and-conquer idea can be scrapped, I didn't like that much either.

 

[Sunday]

If certain people have more power that others then it defeats the purpose of this exercise. It becomes like a comittee, deciding on decisions for the whole, which isn't the way this should be. This is about creating this Pokemon based on what the whole of Smogon wants to see, with everyone opinion having an equeal weighing. It's "Smogon's Create a Pokemon" Not "Selected Smogon Members Create a Pokemon". I believe we should have enough trust in the general Smogon public to trust then to say "No, this thing isn't going to be a UU with an 800 base stat total, Magic Guard, and a movepool to rival Deoxys"

For the record, 60+ People were happy with the whole process. ~60 disagreed with one or more of the decisions the group made, but were generally happy. Twentyone people have prematurely judged that this Pokemon will be broken, something they can't possibly prove. Only seven people were sour about one of the decisions made, and decided to say that they were unhappy with the whole process.

 

[Luck]

I suggested making the next generation of pokemon,but the polling is best process.The process help make balanced pokes and is a quality control system.If don't you like idea you have two options work on your pokes yourself and put into the format the create a poke are in and program them shoddy yourself or when the poll comes around and your poke idea fits your idea enter it but know it will changed up and not totally your original idea.

I am not worried about rushing the process,because as you guys see people like make their own pokes and eventually they will be enough pokes to have other generation.I like the idea focusing the polls towards a goal of making a next gen but either way it will happen.

As you people can some people already start pushing their ideas and not community ideas.Use the system in place it works but know once submit idea to polls it stop being "yours" and become "ours".

As for should mod the next polls i suggest Hydra be the main guy with Lord Sunday and Gengarcyrisis assisting meaning if Lord Sunday and Gengarcyrisis together agree something should be add or taken away from the poll it will be taken away.Then one those guys will take lead in the next poll and other two will be the back up.That way have two other people who will know what they are doing in case you want to run multiple of polls at same time or person is busy for couple weeks.

 

[Opterown]

I think some of you may be misunderstanding this idea; Sunday's suggestion of "Commitee.... blah" is inherently incorrect as it's the people that create the pokemon, then the judges vote on their suitability (with their votes counting 50%) then the community judges it (the other 50%). The judges are chosen by the community, and how they mark the pokemon would also be decided. It's just that these judges would likely understand this better and make better, more informed decisions.
I dunno, it seemed that Cooper did a lot of deciding himself upon how the process'd works.

I can see the poll too, you know, no need to be derogatory.


Overall, it seems that you people have chosen to nerf my idea. I'll not continue supporting it after this post; to avoid flame wars (unless it's to clear misunderstandings), which I think would continue, via extrapolation of Cooper's attitude.

 

[sanjay120]

What you are proposing is a representative democracy, which is ok but inferior to a true democracy. Secondly, one person creating a Pokemon and the rest voting on it is not cool. What is better is we create it together. It may be slower but it's much more fun.

 

[Rena22]

I believe this has gone very well, and there doesn't have to be any major changes. The only thing i believe that needs changing, for the next one, is the order of operations (first do the pic and then do the moves/abilities etc.)

 

[MegaMewtwo]

I believe this has gone very well, and there doesn't have to be any major changes. The only thing i believe that needs changing, for the next one, is the order of operations (first do the pic and then do the moves/abilities etc.)

Finally, someone agrees with me! When it was first decided that we'd have an ice bug, the majority of people voted mixed sweeper PURELY because they wanted Megahorn and Ice Beam. And Syclant ended up hornless. I have a feeling most of those people left this after that. I kept saying we should know what our creation looked like BEFORE figuring out its capabilities.

 

[eric the espeon]

I believe this has gone very well, and there doesn't have to be any major changes. The only thing i believe that needs changing, for the next one, is the order of operations (first do the pic and then do the moves/abilities etc.)

i TOTALY agree with this, infact i surgested the thread was started straight after the type was chosen. it should go something like this

1. type
2. (start art thread) function e.g. mixed wall, supporter.
2.5 check if we want it to be an evo/prevo of an exsisting pokemon, we probably dont need a separate poll for this.
3. stats
4. choose art (i would make it sooner but we need to give the artists time)
5. movepool
6. ability
7. final sprite + mini sprite + back sprite.
8. minor stuff e.g. hight, weight, exp. speed, wild hold item, analersys probably more stuff i cant think of now.
9. finishing touches

anything else too add?

also hyra can you/have you read my post a few pages back? if not can you?

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

I believe this has gone very well, and there doesn't have to be any major changes. The only thing i believe that needs changing, for the next one, is the order of operations (first do the pic and then do the moves/abilities etc.)

Bolded the part that almost everyone fucking agree with including me. The main problem with the order of operation at the time was the fact we waited soo long to actually do the artwork of this pokemon and by the time it came, many thing came out wrong like expected movepool completely re-written after finding out it didn't have a horn and stuff like that. If we had done the picture after type was chosen then things would be different.

Anything to express was the way we even chose the type for this thing in the first place. Need to take the top three from each of the two type polls and combined them to make more interesting choices next time.

 

[WeavileTamer]

Bolded the part that almost everyone fucking agree with including me. The main problem with the order of operation at the time was the fact we waited soo long to actually do the artwork of this pokemon and by the time it came, many thing came out wrong like expected movepool completely re-written after finding out it didn't have a horn and stuff like that.

QFT

 

[eric the espeon]

goth tog: what do you think about my idea for the oder?

also what does that mean weaviletamer?