Not to mention Snorunt -> Froslass, which "breaks" the current stat distribution. Also Kirlia -> Gallade. Scyther -> Scizor. Really, does Spinda being 60/60/60/60/60/60 really matter?
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Policy Review Evolution Project Rules Workshop
- Thread starter DougJustDoug
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Not to mention Snorunt -> Froslass, which "breaks" the current stat distribution. Also Kirlia -> Gallade. Scyther -> Scizor. Really, does Spinda being 60/60/60/60/60/60 really matter?
All those examples given above are special or split evolutions so it's not surprising that they'd break the mold. Generally speaking in any straight forward evolution they'll follow the original trend the pre-evo was following if it has one. Regardless since we'll probably not do anything as complex as split or special evos at first we shouldn't worry too much about it.
I guess we can just discuss the stats properly if it doesn't follow a trend later when we get to them. It's no large problem it'll just require more thought and discussion.
I guess we can just discuss the stats properly if it doesn't follow a trend later when we get to them. It's no large problem it'll just require more thought and discussion.
Look at Metang-->Metagross the stats change there quite dramaticly.
Yes, they're indeed exceptions, but my point was to tell that exceptions do exist. Spinda, for example, doesn't have to be all-100 (or even all-90), a balanced Spinda evolution with 100/85/85/85/85/100 would be acceptable as well - it doesn't stray from Spinda's "general stat layout".
Out of curiosity, how exactly is Scyther -> Scizor an "exception"? Then Onix -> Steelix, Poliwhirl -> Politoed, Slowbro -> Slowking, Seadra -> Kingdra, Chansey -> Blissey and so on all must be exceptions, but they still follow the general stat layout trend.
I like the idea of picking the pokemon first. However, I hate the idea of having everyone submit one pokemon and having to choose from hundreds of submissions. We need to narrow the field. Obviously, a concept or type could narrow the field. But, I think that is fraught with problems, for reasons mentioned by others.
I'd like to propose an alternative that hasn't been mentioned or explored yet. But first a little background reasoning....
One of the big problems I have with an evolution project in general, is it is a magnet for fanboys. Even more than the normal CAP projects, which are very fanboy-ish anyway.
From a competitive standpoint, there's really no reason to evolve a pokemon. If we want to satisfy a need in the metagame, creating a new pokemon offers more flexibility and creativity. The only reason we are even discussing evolutions is because the fanboy in all of us just HATES that <crappy pokemon of choice> is a crappy pokemon. That's why I've always considered evos to be a bit contrary to the purpose of the CAP project. Because the point of the CAP project is to focus on COMPETITIVE pokemon play.
But just because evo projects have almost purely fanboy beginnings, does not mean they will not have competitive impact. The end result of evo projects will almost certainly affect the competitive metagame -- assuming that the new evolutions are competitively viable. That's the reason I am in favor of doing evo projects.
So, the dilemma is -- How to start the project?
I think we should start the project by deemphasizing the fanboy aspects, and instead focus on the competitive side of it. If we know we want the end result pokemon to be OU, perhaps we should first narrow down what tier of pokemon we will start with? From a purely competitive standpoint, I can envision three general categories of evolution, based on tiers (using some DP evos for examples):
If we used the starting tier as an initial voting topic, we could narrow down which pokemon are candidates to evolve. After that, you could take submissions or ranked voting to finalize the pokemon to evolve.
It's not a perfect system, but it is very clear for everyone to follow, since tiers are well-known. It also kicks the project off on a competitive note, which might encourage the project to follow a more orderly process. Because, I for one, fear that an evo project will be a big fanboy mess.
I'd like to propose an alternative that hasn't been mentioned or explored yet. But first a little background reasoning....
One of the big problems I have with an evolution project in general, is it is a magnet for fanboys. Even more than the normal CAP projects, which are very fanboy-ish anyway.
From a competitive standpoint, there's really no reason to evolve a pokemon. If we want to satisfy a need in the metagame, creating a new pokemon offers more flexibility and creativity. The only reason we are even discussing evolutions is because the fanboy in all of us just HATES that <crappy pokemon of choice> is a crappy pokemon. That's why I've always considered evos to be a bit contrary to the purpose of the CAP project. Because the point of the CAP project is to focus on COMPETITIVE pokemon play.
But just because evo projects have almost purely fanboy beginnings, does not mean they will not have competitive impact. The end result of evo projects will almost certainly affect the competitive metagame -- assuming that the new evolutions are competitively viable. That's the reason I am in favor of doing evo projects.
So, the dilemma is -- How to start the project?
I think we should start the project by deemphasizing the fanboy aspects, and instead focus on the competitive side of it. If we know we want the end result pokemon to be OU, perhaps we should first narrow down what tier of pokemon we will start with? From a purely competitive standpoint, I can envision three general categories of evolution, based on tiers (using some DP evos for examples):
1. BL to OU
"Power Boost"
Examples:
-- Rhydon -> Rhyperior
-- Porygon2 -> PorygonZ
2. UU to OU
"Major Upgrade"
Examples:
-- Gligar -> Gliscor
-- Sneasel -> Weavile
-- Yanma -> Yanmega
3. NU to OU
"Massive Overhaul"
Examples:
-- Togetic -> Togekiss
-- Roselia -> Roserade
-- Aipom -> Ambipom
"Power Boost"
Examples:
-- Rhydon -> Rhyperior
-- Porygon2 -> PorygonZ
2. UU to OU
"Major Upgrade"
Examples:
-- Gligar -> Gliscor
-- Sneasel -> Weavile
-- Yanma -> Yanmega
3. NU to OU
"Massive Overhaul"
Examples:
-- Togetic -> Togekiss
-- Roselia -> Roserade
-- Aipom -> Ambipom
If we used the starting tier as an initial voting topic, we could narrow down which pokemon are candidates to evolve. After that, you could take submissions or ranked voting to finalize the pokemon to evolve.
It's not a perfect system, but it is very clear for everyone to follow, since tiers are well-known. It also kicks the project off on a competitive note, which might encourage the project to follow a more orderly process. Because, I for one, fear that an evo project will be a big fanboy mess.
I think that is a good idea DJD...
It narrows down the options while focusing the creation.
And it DOESN'T select the pokemon before hand like typing. When people choose ghost, most likely they are thinking of Banette.
Whereas, if people pick UU it narrows it down and still leaves the options wide open (as there are alot of popular evo choices in every tier).
It narrows down the options while focusing the creation.
And it DOESN'T select the pokemon before hand like typing. When people choose ghost, most likely they are thinking of Banette.
Whereas, if people pick UU it narrows it down and still leaves the options wide open (as there are alot of popular evo choices in every tier).
i like DJD's idea but i don't agree with evolving BL most don't need evolving and are good enough in OU.
I mean how can stuff like Alakazam, Raikou and Ursaring get any better without becoming broken.
I mean how can stuff like Alakazam, Raikou and Ursaring get any better without becoming broken.
Zam wouldn't be looked at because he's already a Stage-3, Raikou's Legendary, and Ursaring...
Give him a bit more defense at the cost of speed? I dunno. There's plenty of next-gen only Evos that make a Pokemon stronger in some stats while cutting it elsewhere (Electabuzz -> Electavire, Magmar - Magmortar, Porygon2 - PorygonZ). So it's not a total stretch.
Give him a bit more defense at the cost of speed? I dunno. There's plenty of next-gen only Evos that make a Pokemon stronger in some stats while cutting it elsewhere (Electabuzz -> Electavire, Magmar - Magmortar, Porygon2 - PorygonZ). So it's not a total stretch.
Electabuzz and Magmar were both UU previous generation though. Shit like Dusclops and Rhydon didn't need an evolution i seriously doubt that they would have been below BL this gen.
While Rhydon didn't need an evolution it certainly isn't broken with one. There are two types of BL: those that are good enough to be in OU but aren't used much (Sceptile, Raikou, Alakazam), and those that are usually bad in OU but break UU (Absol, Shedinja, Rampardos).
Also if we meddle in UU we have to be careful of what we evolve. With the 'no non unique NFEs' rule most UU players go by, we don't want to remove something vital by evolving it.
Also if we meddle in UU we have to be careful of what we evolve. With the 'no non unique NFEs' rule most UU players go by, we don't want to remove something vital by evolving it.
Problem with the tier idea is that Smogon hasn't actually made an NU list yet - it's all mixed in with the UUs currently. You'd have to make a list just for CaP specifically and hash out where things like Sunflora, Sudowoodo, Wishcash make the cut for UU or not. The alternative would be to use the Advance tiers, but some Pokemon have changed significantly in the transition; I doubt Relicanth for one would still be NU.
I like the idea otherwise - much better than using concept or type - but this is a significant problem.
I like the idea otherwise - much better than using concept or type - but this is a significant problem.
Scyther is ok in UU; he's NFE. Same with kadabra. Same with Pikachu. Don't worry about evolving a UU and having it kicked out of UU. That will become just another exception; the metagame won't change at all in UU because you evolved, say, omastar. He will be used just as much as before. His having an OU evolution won't change his viability.
I agree with Doug's idea. I just want to add that Pokemon that are in lower tiers should be singled out for evolution before the ones that are already moderately good. If this should be left for the people to vote, or actually be incorporated in the process of new evolution creation is another thing.
People are free to participate in both, and so what if we make an evolution that fills an already existing niche? You could argue that Revenankh and Dusknoir same the same niche, as do Syclant and Yanmega.
That works, then once you choose the catagory of evolution you could choose the pokemon, and go from there.
There is a sort of split in BL. There's things like Alakazam and Raikou who are amazing but aren't used enough in OU. Then there are things like Porygon2 and Pinsir who are banned from UU because they are too powerful for there, but not used enough in OU because they are outclassed. Doug is talking about evolving the second group.
EDIT: Missed Sanjay's post, and he said what I said.
Don't post when you don't know what you're talking about. Kadabra is not allowed in UU, Porygon2 and Pikachu are only there because they're different from Porygon-Z and Raichu.
Doug's idea works for me. NU first! Delibird, Spinda, go!
If want to use Doug's idea (which I want to), we need to first create our own NU tier. We could do this a couple ways: make a UU ladder and determine NU the same way UU is determined, OR we could use X-Act's app and, using an arbitrary limit, limit NU to a certain limit of stats. I would be up for doing the tedious task of entering each UU pokémon's stats into the calculator, but X-Act may have a quicker way to do it. Either way, the latter option would be quicker to execute rather than take usage statistics over the course of three months.
I dont know if this counts because it was an added pre-evo (except for Hitmontop), but Tyrogue has 35/35/35/35/35/35 as his Base Stats, and that didn't force the stats to come out balanced (and Sp. Atk stays 35 when evolved, too).
I'd prefer using the usage statistics as it's much more accurate and thorough assuming enough people play UU on the ladder. Didn't X-act say that he believes moves and typing is more important than a pokemon's stats anyway?
Even without an NU teir, I think Doug's idea would still largely be relevant and useful.
Even without an NU teir, I think Doug's idea would still largely be relevant and useful.
i don't see how usage is a fair guide, if a load of fanboys suddenly started using delibird and it ended up in the higher usage statistics it doesn't suddenly mean it only needs a small upgrade(UU-OU) to be usable.
I think between us we can easily tell the difference between a pokemon that needs a minor upgrade and something that needs a massive overhaul.
Add to that the project gets delayed another month till we get usable stats and that is hoping anyone even plays UU on the server.
I think between us we can easily tell the difference between a pokemon that needs a minor upgrade and something that needs a massive overhaul.
Add to that the project gets delayed another month till we get usable stats and that is hoping anyone even plays UU on the server.
I think Doug's idea is good. Stated before, I think we need to differentiate UU and NU so that we have 3 tiers to work with. I think someone mentioned before using X-Act's tool for finding out a Pokemon's ability to do <X> job well in order to determine if the said Pokemon is UU or NU based on stats. We can work with typing and movepool in the Evolution Creation Process.
I feel for the most part usage is largely relevant every once in a while there might be an exception. However, do you really think there's going to be a huge number of fanboys whoring something so stupid as delibird? This IS a smogon server, our main objective is to be competitive.
Though what you brought up is missing the point, calculating by stats alone is much less thorough and accurate than if you factored in movepool, ability, and stats. When people choose pokemon they try factor in all of them as well as possible so as to find the best pokemon for the role they're trying to fulfill. Usage statistics are the result of that process assuming it's then used on the UU ladder. The stat calculation method won't factor in movepool or ability.
Though what you brought up is missing the point, calculating by stats alone is much less thorough and accurate than if you factored in movepool, ability, and stats. When people choose pokemon they try factor in all of them as well as possible so as to find the best pokemon for the role they're trying to fulfill. Usage statistics are the result of that process assuming it's then used on the UU ladder. The stat calculation method won't factor in movepool or ability.
Hmm, my own two cents on UU vs NU. Since we of course have to factor in abilities and move pool, I'd think either this X-Act tool or some self-evaluation. See how all these UU pokemon do against each other for yourselves, and see what's obviously NU, and what's not. To be fair though, that could take a while... -_-;
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