np: Suspect Test - Deoxys-S

And now playing: you guys! Take a look at my announcement for details, but it's pretty simple—Deoxys-S is the next Suspect in our "Balanced Standard Competitive Metagame" playlist. Rock on.

Use this thread to talk about stuff that won't make me want to hit you. So, please post intelligently and with purpose, and back up any contentious statements with an obvious indication that you know what you're talking about. So don't post "deoxys-e is easy to beat i never have a problem with it" because lol, no.

edit: yeah this is important and goes in the OP:



THE DEADLINE DATE FOR ATTAINING THE NECESSARY NUMBERS IS: 11:00pm Pacific on 10/18/08

The same voting criteria will be used:

Rating of at least 1650 on both the Standard Ladder and the Suspect Test Ladder (Average of High and Low Ratings)

Deviation of less than 60 on both the Standard Ladder and the Suspect Test Ladder. (Difference of High and Low Ratings divided by 2)

THE DEADLINE DATE FOR ATTAINING THE NECESSARY NUMBERS IS: 11:00pm Pacific on 10/18/08

Only users who maintain the requirements through the end of the testing phase will be granted voting rights.

I have heard a lot of people saying things like, "I am going to vote deoxys Uber!" even before the test starts. I think we should try to keep an open mind here, as it is pretty difficult to judge tier status without a valid comparison.

So basically, please be open to the idea that your initial perception of deoxys' power could be wrong. The test shouldn't just determine the voters, it should also determine how they vote.

Mixed feelings about this. On one hand I feel the presence of "A greater speed" widened the dimensions of the field, and forced a lot of creative sets that would not have existed otherwise. However, it is likely that these sets were widely for pokemon that already saw a lot of use.

Take CS trick azelf/gengar as an example of a build that screws over double screen deoxys. In an environment without deo, Mesprit might do this better (with it's overall better bulk and wider movepool).

So on one hand D-S expands the scope of the battle field (just by adding a whole different level of speed) and forces some enginuity, but I have no doubt there are pokemon who could be used more effectively if it weren't there.

TAY said:

I have heard a lot of people saying things like, "I am going to vote deoxys Uber!" even before the test starts. I think we should try to keep an open mind here, as it is pretty difficult to judge tier status without a valid comparison.

So basically, please be open to the idea that your initial perception of deoxys' power could be wrong. The test shouldn't just determine the voters, it should also determine how they vote.

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I find myself wanting the same thing. But, the same thing happened with Wobbuffet and Garchomp. I don't see any indication that this test will be any different. I think the suspects that haven't been used in OU are more likely to be met with a blank mind.

Deoxys has been used in OU for several months now, and was in ubers before that, so I don't know what you're talking about. People already know what it can and cannot do, and how the game functions with and without it.

I don't think this is the right time to vote now
Platinum release made a huge change in the metagame and as long people use Scizor, Deoxys-E won't overpower anything soon

The offensive sets haven't been the issue since Garchomp was banned.

Ok, so why is Skymin banned on the suspect test ladder? I thought that Deoxys-S was supposed to be banned in isolation on the suspect test ladder, and THEN it would be Skymin's turn. Isn't that supposed to mean that Skymin is allowed on Suspect Test since it technically is in standard right now?

Bologo said:

Ok, so why is Skymin banned on the suspect test ladder? I thought that Deoxys-S was supposed to be banned in isolation on the suspect test ladder, and THEN it would be Skymin's turn. Isn't that supposed to mean that Skymin is allowed on Suspect Test since it technically is in standard right now?

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Because Skymin is also a suspect.

We are supposed to be testing each suspect alone without any other in stage 1.

Alright, thanks Tangerine.

Also, oddly enough, Deoxys-S isn't on the ban list for the suspect ladder when it is the one being tested...

The ban list says:

Arceus, Darkrai, Deoxys, Deoxys-F(A), Deoxys-L(D), Dialga, Garchomp, Giratina, Giratina-o, Groudon, Ho-oh, Kyogre, Latias, Latios, Lugia, Manaphy, Mew, Mewtwo, Palkia, Rayquaza, Shaymin-s, Wobbuffet, Wynaut.

No deoxys-s in there, so I'm not sure it's actually banned on it or not.

EDIT: Maybe I'm interpreting this wrong...Is Deoxys-S being tested the same way as Garchomp was being tested where it's supposed to be banned on suspect, or is it being tested another way?

Yes, Deoxys-S is oddly not banned, yet this whole topic is about him.

Yup, if we are testing Deoxys-S, shouldn't it be the banned one on the list lol?

"lol"

everything that is going to be tested on the suspect test ladder from now on will be featured on that ladder, not on standard. again, the purpose of the suspect test ladder is to isolate and test a single suspect in a metagame therefore without any other suspects. this will be the way we do it with skymin, regardless of what the standard ladder looks like. and this will be the way we do it with latios and latios and manaphy and mew as well

So we are going to test Deoxys without it being banned from either ladder, then? Or is Skymin the one that's actually being tested currently.

Oh, goodie. So, now Skymin is being tested, too? Or are Deoxys-S and Skymin both on the standard ladder now, too? My Shoddy isn't working for some reason...

OK, I'm going to try to explain this accourding to how I understand it. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

We are currently in the first stage of testing. This means we are testing pokemon in a metagame without any other suspects to see what the effects were. Garchomp was, unfortunately, done wrong. What should have happened, was Garchomp should have been tested in a metagame by itself without Deoxys-E. However, when we started the test, the only suspect in the current metagame was Garchomp. This means that the only way to test its effects were to test a metagame without Garchomp. However, after a few days of testing, Deoxys-E was deemed to be suspect also.

The Garchomp test was done correctly IF it had been the only suspect in the Metagame. But Deoxys messed that up. With the method of testing we are currently doing, this method is the best way to test a suspect if more than one suspects exists in the metagame

Stage 1: Analysis of a single Suspect in August 2008's standard metagame (since Garchomp and Deoxys-S are definitely suspects, this is all the wording that's needed)

Stage 2: Our assessment of Uber or OU for any Suspect's impact on a suspect-free August 2008 metagame, following the respective Suspect's completion of Stage 1.

Stage 3: Analysis of all the Suspects in August 2008's standard metagame with the knowledge of which are considered Uber and OU in the Suspect-free August-2008 metagame.


Step one involves testing the suspects of the old metagame (Garchomp, Deoxys-E) in a suspectLESS metagame

Step two involves testing the Current Ubers that are suspects (Manaphy, Lati@s, Mew) in the metagame with out suspects ( I believe this means testing them in a metagame with the suspects that are no longer suspect, so if Deoxys-e is voted ou, it will be in the metagame of this test, but this is the part I'm not sure of)

Step three is tossing all the suspects in to the metagame at once to see if the suspects balance each other out.

All I'm asking is who is being tested? Because this topic mentions Deoxys, yet Deoxys is allowed on both ladders and Skymin is the one that's banned.

We are seeing how well Deoxys-S preforms in a suspectless metagame, so we have to remove Shaymin-S.

We are testing Deoxys-S

I agree with Syb-- in regards to deoxys, how are we doing anything different from before if it is allowed on both ladders? Doesn't make sense

edit: RB Golbat-- we have been playing with deoxys with and without shaymin for months. You have to admit that this feels a lot more like we're testing shaymin than deoxys.

That makes less sense than the method of testing Garchomp did, IMO.

Wait, so we're basically testing Shaymin-S first?

I say allow Shaymin-S and not Deoxys-S. I've been running a Scarf Shaymin as my lead for the express purpose of 2HKOing and beating standard lead Deoxys-S 57% of the time (flinch), and I'd like to see how not worrying about something with D-S's speed changes how I run teams.

Huh...

So, now Deoxys-S will be seen ONLY in Suspect Ladder, while it's banned of Standard. Shaymin-S is also banned, but from BOTH ladders, as it's also a suspect.

Right?

Arael said:

Huh...

So, now Deoxys-S will be seen ONLY in Suspect Ladder, while it's banned of Standard. Shaymin-S is also banned, but from BOTH ladders, as it's also a suspect.

Right?

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Incorrect. BOTH Deoxys-S and Skymin are allowed on the standard ladder, while Shaymin-s is banned on the suspect. That's how it is as of now.

why is everyone but like four people still confused about all this

ChouToshio said:

I agree with Syb-- in regards to deoxys, how are we doing anything different from before if it is allowed on both ladders? Doesn't make sense

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it makes sense when you realize that it was never officially tested, so nobody knew it was actually being tested. believe me, i am well aware that it has been allowed on some server or another since february. but nobody seems to have liked the bold voting process i was asked to administrate a few months ago, because of the inherent subjectivity involved with tallying votes. so, we are testing it in earnest, using the more accepted Suspect Test process Jabba and I came up with.

if things were up to just me i would give it an "OU" Stage 2 label and be done with it, after the amount of time i spent personally assessing and tallying those votes on dxs this past summer. but i am not selfish, and this is why we are making this a two-week test—we understand how long dxs has been allowed in standard and that having this information will curtail the amount of time needed to come to a fair conclusion about its Stage 2 label.

edit: RB Golbat-- we have been playing with deoxys with and without shaymin for months. You have to admit that this feels a lot more like we're testing shaymin than deoxys.

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we have had less than two weeks' experience with skymin in standard play. so, in a way, yes, we *are* testing skymin...just not on the suspect ladder. we don't anticiplate everyone will stop playing the standard ladder where skymin is still very much allowed, and this is the chief reason we are testing dxs before skymin. using skymin on the standard ladder will give the community more of the hands-on experience it needs to be able to assess it properly when its turn on the suspect ladder comes