CAP 7 CAP 7 - Concept Assessment

Plus: scouting just involves knowing information about your opponent's team

Beej: Scouting: doing shit that forces the opponent to reveal information about their team for no reward.

cyberzero: you're trying to find out about what they have, what sets they run, so you can set up lategame sweeps with ANOTHER pokemon

Click to expand...

There was a conversation on the server about this topic. We don't want a dual dragons relationship because it can be done a million ways. In fact, the majority of offensive teams are based on that strategy alone, despite how different the tactics may be, the idea is the same. This isn't meant to be the perfect Pokemon to set up lategame sweeps. It should be something that helps you find out about how to go about in setting up for lategame sweeps, not actually doing it.

Cartoons' point is exactly my concern. If this is going to do dual dragons anyway, it's going to be straying from the concept anyway. We can just put an enhancing item on and voila, we have a sweeper when we wanted a scouter. Many people on the server have brought up Flygon as an argument to this, but Flygon wasn't MEANT to be a scouter. It just happens to be a very good one. It can run sweeper sets and scouting sets, defensive sets and support sets, but CAP7 is a scouter, and if it can fill any of the other sets viably, we're doing too much. CAP7 isn't supposed to be Flygon+, it's supposed to be something completely different. Hitting things hard isn't the only way to cause switches, and causing switches isn't the only way to scout.

cyberzero said:

Naxte, it seems very unlikely that we'll go off and create a custom phasing move, as this isn't meant to be Skarm. This is meant to scout, phasing is generally to remove threats and rack up residual damage. Phasing does help, but putting that much emphasis would make us stray from the concept.

Click to expand...

The literal effect of the move would be to phaze, true, but as I said, another effect of it would be to scout the opponent's team and determine what's on it. That right there would be the significance of it; fairly safely forcing another Pokemon out, to get a more complete view of the team. That's the point of scouting, after all; determining as much information about the opponent's team as possible, with as little risk as possible.

And I don't get how such a move would be "putting too much emphasis" on it; it's not something it would need to run, and would limit the effectiveness of Protect on it, another very viable move for scouting. Such a move would be a very good option on it, but it wouldn't preclude any other options or anything, due to the limitations of it. Depending on what information you want to get, you might want to run Protect, or the speedy-roar move. It would just give it more options for scouting information, with its limitations keeping it in check and not having it completely dominate over other options.

Any sweeper can technically scout if it has a powerful enough move to force a switch. What the concept needs is to scout without being a sweeper. A concentration on moves that force switches by other tactics seems to be necessary. Salamence and Gyarados can be used as scouts when used in compilation with another Pokemon so that Intimidate forces a switch, I suggest we concentrate on doing something along the same lines, with an emphasis on moves that reveal more than force a switch.

Forcing switches can be done without powerful moves. The best way about going at this could be using stuff like confusion to force switches. This would not only help you scout out the use of a pokemon, but how it is involoved in the team. If a confused sweeper stays in, its likely to not be important to their stradegy.

Also random idea, but everyone talks about a special Intimidate, what about a speed intimidate? An ability that lowers the opponent's speed one stage upon entering. This would allow CAP 7 to be able to outspeed opponents, while not having enough speed to sweep a team.

For example, say CAP7 has 95 base speed. Fast, but still easily outrun. A speed intimidate could give CAP7 an advantage over Base 100 but allow one switch in and stop a sweep. It scouts by switching, and could slow down something to allow your slightly slower pokemon to take it out.

Solstice and Hydrolphin have my view on this downpat. We don't need to go the route that everything can go and make it hit hard. That's what we have Flygon for, a Pokemon that is fast and can threaten a lot of Pokemon, as well as use U-Turn, causing a lot of switches. This isn't meant to be a better version of Flygon.

Before anyone goes "Speed Intimidate? That's stupid!", read the rest of Hydrolphin's post. He has a point, and this could definitely cause switches. CAP7 won't be a threat because of powerful moves but because it can outspeed and hit with decently powered attack coming off a decent attack, but nothing that can strike fear. Confusion is a great idea, as well as other status inducing phasing like Yawn, maybe even Attract. I like the idea of a Speed Intimidate.

Good idea, but don't elaborate on it until the ability thread, please!

I don't really think we need to focus on something that can force switches to reveal information - if you need something like that there's plenty of options. I definitely think it's a better idea to go with an ability that reveals information about the opponent's team on something like a good utility poke, rather than say "X is strong or disabling and requires an immediate answer" when we already have so many pokes that do similar jobs. CAP7 is going to do a poor job carving its own niche if that's the route we take.

Starkclamp said:

I don't really think we need to focus on something that can force switches to reveal information - if you need something like that there's plenty of options. I definitely think it's a better idea to go with an ability that reveals information about the opponent's team on something like a good utility poke, rather than say "X is strong or disabling and requires an immediate answer" when we already have so many pokes that do similar jobs. CAP7 is going to do a poor job carving its own niche if that's the route we take.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say, could you make yourself a little bit clearer? It seems like you're saying that a scout will fail to fulfill it's niche if we make it a scout. =/

Starkclamp said:

I don't really think we need to focus on something that can force switches to reveal information - if you need something like that there's plenty of options. I definitely think it's a better idea to go with an ability that reveals information about the opponent's team on something like a good utility poke, rather than say "X is strong or disabling and requires an immediate answer" when we already have so many pokes that do similar jobs. CAP7 is going to do a poor job carving its own niche if that's the route we take.

Click to expand...

What exactly do you mean... that we shouldnt be forcing switches? The concept is to scout individual pokemon and a team as a hole.

I'll agree with most said in this thread, and would like to add that this pokemon should try and resist Dragon, Fighting, Fire, or Ground. I think it's impossible to resist all of those but honestly, it should resist the STAB of Salamence, Lucario, Flygon, Infernape and perhaps Heatran. All have unpredictable movesets and can cause havok. Thus, this scouter probably shouldn't be volatile to any of them. This will be a problem however, as the only type that resists Dragon is also weak to Fighting, Fire and Ground :P

Steel typing seems pretty crucial to me, as otherwise he won't be scouting Salamence any time soon, without some gimmicky ability. This unfortunately means he is at best neutral to fighting and fire, which are going to be coming from lucario, infernape, and heatran.

Really, I'm surprised no one made this list yet, but I believe it should be vital to see what we want to do and don't want to do.

List of goals

Possible information we want to collect (Prio 1):
- Names of the 6 pokemon on a team
- What 4 moves are used on each of these pokemon
- Items used on each of the pokemon
- Abilities used on each of the pokemon
- EV spread of each pokemon


Possible additional roles we want the scout to fulfil (Prio 2):
- Crippling a pokemon through damage, but only after set-up, loss of items or status
- Being able to set the field just right for another member of the team to sweep.


Possible additional additional roles we want the scout to fulfil (Prio 3):
- Having longevity through sheer defensive stats, an ability, or moves, or a combination of these
- Being able to switch in multiple times negating Stealth Rock damage through ability or typing
- Being able to be a proper check to certain list of pokemon, being able to force them out one way or another. This list includes but is not limited to (stolen shamelessly from Ziggy on page 1):
Flygon
Infernape
Jirachi
Jolteon
Latias
Salamence
Vaporeon
Celebi
Cresselia
Lucario
Heatran

_____________________________________________________________________


List of methods

Possible methods to get information, split by information type:
Names of the 6 pokemon on a team:
- Causing switches by raw force (high offensive stats meaning death to any pokemon that stays in
- Causing switches by status (Ruining a potential sweep with a burn or a paralyze)
- Causing switches by potential sleep (Yawn)
- Causing switches by temporary stat drops (I.e charming a physical version of mence)
- Causing switches by removing an item that is vital to the cause of that certain pokemon
- Causing switches by the use of roar and/or whirlwind
- Causing switches by revealed information because it was vital to the opponent to keep his set revealed
- Besides all the causing of switches, there could possibly be some kind of strange ability be created that returns all the same type pokemon on a team when you switch in or whatever (not that I agree with this, just saying that if we would want to, we could even make an ability of some sort to get to know the 6 pokemon).

What 4 moves are used on each of these pokemon:
- By use of certain existing abilities like forwarn.
- By use of Taunt and/or a newly created reversed taunt
- By use of mimic/imprison/disable/moves of the like.
- By use of protect/detect/substitute
- By use of Transform
- By use of stat dropping moves which could mean a mixed set will suddenly throw moves from the other side of the spectrum
- By use of set knowledge (this is a more global way to learn a moveset, and works in conjunction with the other information types, i.e. "know the item to know the moveset")

Items used on each of the pokemon:
- By use of the ability Frisk
- By use of the moves Knock Off, Bug Bite, Pluck, Trick, Embargo etc.
- By use of set knowledge (The other way around now: "Know the moves to know the item")

Abilities used on each of the pokemon:
- By use of the ability Trace
- By use of the move Role Play

EV spread of each pokemon:
- This may be a controversial one, but we could create an ability that shows the EV spread of a pokemon (or partial spread) which could tell us a lot. A Heatran with attack EVs obviously runs Explosion. A sweeper with both Atk and SpA EVs is a mixed sweeper. A Gyarados or Salamence with lots of HP and other bulk EV's may make you switch in another counter that you usually would (knowing that your Ice Shard all of the sudden won't OHKO anymore, or something like that). There is a lot of information to be gained from the EV spread.
- And of course, the set knowledge. Items will most likely reveal which EV spread is used.

Crippling a pokemon through damage, but only after set-up, loss of items or status:
Status crippling:
- By use of moves like Will-O-Wisp, Toxic, T-wave, Yawn but also attacking moves like Body Slam
- By use of the move Psycho Shift
- By use of tricking a Toxic Orb or Burn Orb.
- By use of the ability Synchronize
Offensive crippling
- When a stat dropping move is used to make a foe switch, yet he doesn't, I feel a punishment for bad play should be in order. I.e a Fake Tears + random special attack. I don't think the ability to sweep should be innate, but through set-up (on the side of the opponent) one should be able to do considerable damage. The same could also be achieved by taking away an item vital to the foe's safety. If he doesn't switch, it's his own fault the pokemon will die (Focus Sash on a weak pokemon as an example)

Being able to set the field just right for another member of the team to sweep:
- This one is a bit of all, but this pokemon should be able to have high team synergy by being able to (partially) cripple counters to certain of your sweepers through whatever means, giving your own sweeper a field day in the park. This can be done by any of the previous mentioned methods. Additional methods will be mentioned here.
- By use of locking a foe into a move through encore
- By use of locking a pokemon to the field by use of Block or Spider Web
- By use of setting a field condition like Rain Dance/Sunny Day and/or Trick Room/Gravity, etc.

Having longevity through sheer defensive stats, an ability, or moves, or a combination of these:
- By giving it (semi-)high defensive stats, it's easier to switch it into damaging moves/let it stay in.
- By giving it an ability that let it lives longer, i.e a Solid Rock or even Magic Guard.
- By giving it defensive stat up moves like stockpile and Amnesia, but also moves like Guard Swap that also disrupts the foe.
- By giving it proper typing that has numerous key resistances and/or immunties.

Being able to switch in multiple times negating Stealth Rock damage through ability or typing:
- Through use of typing that makes it 2x or even 4x resistant to SR.
- Through use of abilities like Mountaineer or Magic Guard that resist SR or all residual damage respectively.

Being able to be a proper check to certain list of pokemon, being able to force them out one way or another:
- By giving it a good typing that can resist many of the common attacks used by the list of pokemon mentioned above.
- By giving it useful tricks to cripple said list of pokemon which have all been listed above.
- By giving it a decent offensive movepool to finish these pokemon if they decide to stay in at their own peril (or are forced to stay in because of Block).


Explanation to this list:
I've listed what a scout (in my opinion) could be able to do. I'm not saying at all that he should do any or all of these. That's what we should decide on. I think it's important for espacially a broad project like this, that we set a accurate list of all potential goals and niches we want this CAP to fulfill and mention a list of means to fulfil that goal. From there on, we decide what is most viable and what isn't. For example, an ability that reveals an EV spread could be considered to be waaay overpowered and/or not worth the hassle when there are other abilities to consider. We then just remove it from the list to eventually keep list of all the things we want CAP7 to do.
Therefor, it's very likely I may have missed a thing or two on either of the list. Maybe CAP7 has other roles or goals to fulfill as well so please mention it. Please also mention the means to that end, because if there are no possible ways for it to do what you want it to do in the first place, the goal itself is flawed. Maybe there are other ways to reveal a moveset or to reveal the 6 pokemon on the opponents team that I haven't thought of, please mention those as well.

Naxte said:

Roar/Whirlwind are interesting moves, but without very-good defenses, the negative priority limits their usefulness for scouting. So, something that could be interesting and really help it with scouting would be to give it a move to the same effect of Roar/Whirlwind, but with normal or possibly even +1 priority.

Of course, there would be obvious problems with such a move if left unchecked. Set up Stealth Rocks, switch to Scarfed CAP7, and use the move until your opponent dies of SR damage. The solution to this would be in the mechanics of Protect. That is, have the move run off the same success-meter as Protect and Detect. It would be able to force out a threat and cause maybe one more switch if it's lucky, scouting the team as it does so. It would be a very good potential move, but not broken, with Protect+the move and Scarfed uses of the move stopped from being broken by the mechanics, with Protect and Super-Roar being tied to the same success-meter, a 50% success rate on the second turn.

Click to expand...

I was just thinking about how to make a Phazeing move viable, but not broken as neutral priority would make it and I think you hit the nail on the head!

If we want it to be able to scout teams and not just specific Pokemon (IMO team info is more important then Pokemon info, very few Pokemon run extremely different sets and knowing what the opponents late game sweeper is can be extremely useful.) then this would be a great way to go. It means that a Phazeing move can be viable (but not broken) on a non bulky, or even downright fragile, Pokemon.

Responding in regards to concerns about making a 'scouting' pokemon too 'offense' orientated.

I do agree that you in order to be for a pokemon to be an effective scout (let alone the "ultimate scout") you do need it to have a certain level or offensive integrity. In a lot cases there does need to be significant immediate 'threat' to the opponent to provide the proper incentive for them to react in a way the is favorable to revealing their hand. The threat needs to be able to exist... but really only initially. I would suggest that after wards, it need to disappear. Other wise I feel the concern that we will just have made another pressing "sweeper" will have merit.

I suggest that it could be made possible for instance by maybe only allowing 'Scoutmon' average to respectable offensive stats to begin with, but in order for it to be offensively 'threatening' it must make up the difference in high base power moves. Such as Overheat, Blizzard, Superpower or Outrage which all have a negative side effects, which a turn or two there after will strip 'scoutmon' of it sweeping potential. But still succeeding in forcing the opponents hand to begin with. Thus serving their purpose.


In other news, nice list Yllnath. Good job. For records sake, I think 'Transform' should be included on it.

Let's take a look at some of the premier scouts that we currently have in OU. I think if we can gain an insight as to why these scouts are so effective, we can know what qualities we want in our ultimate scout.

• Scizor
  CB Scizor is, among other things, one of the best scouts in the game. Its Steel / Bug typing is almost perfect for scouting - the steel type gives it many, many resistances to come in on, as well as just a singular Fire weakness when paired with Bug, and Bug gives Scizor STAB on possibly the best scouting move - U-turn. Its high attack stat means that it can pose a threat to almost anything with the right move, but its low speed stat will usually prevent a sweep (let's keep Bullet Punch out of the equation here - that's what makes Scizor a sweeper).

• Jolteon
  Specs Jolteon in particular can utilize Baton Pass to play as an efficient scout. Because of its high speed and strong Thunderbolt, it can force a lot of opponents to switch out of it, and can therefore give its user the upper hand by granting an advantageous switch. Its defenses aren't the best (65/60/95) but it has passable SpD (isn't OHKOed by ScarfTran Earth Power), and with its Volt Absorb ability, can come in on Thunder Waves and electric attacks with ease. The Thunder Wave immunity is extremely important - many walls use Thunder Wave, and Jolteon can come in on it with impunity and has the power to force the wall out. Its ability as a scout is also affected by its own teammates - if you have a couple of pokemon that draw in Electric attacks in particular (Gyarados), you can switch Jolteon into much more and therefore use it as a scout a lot more too. This Thunder Wave immunity is also one of the main reasons Flygon makes a good scout with U-turn.

• Swampert
  Swampert can scout whole teams with Roar. This really comes down to its excellent defensive typing and good defensive stats on both spectrums. By only being weak to Grass, a rather uncommon attacking type, Swampert can ensure that not many things will be able to OHKO him, allowing him to get up a couple of Roars at least. The fact that he can take hard hits from both physical and special attackers means that the number of pokemon he can scout is a lot higher than, say, Donphan. Also, having an immunity to come in on is once again a big asset for Swampert, meaning it can come in without taking any damage at all.

• Gengar
  Now this seems like a strange choice, but imo it is actually a very effective scout. It can come in with ease on its immunities to Normal, Fighting and Ground, all of which are very common attacking types. This is important, as Gengar can't really take even neutral hits otherwise. With its great movepool, Gengar can threaten super effective hits on many opponents, and will generally force them out almost every time. Then Gengar can set up a substitute. Sub Gengar is an awesome scout because its speed lets it sub before many of the unpredictable pokemon that need scouting can attack. If Lucario hits you with a Shadow Ball, you know that its some sort of special attacker, whereas if it hits you with Crunch, you can be pretty sure your Gliscor won't have trouble taking it on. So by being able to switch in quite easily, threaten a lot of pokemon out, and being able to sub up before unpredictable pokemon can attack, sub Gengar works as a great scout. I think this shows that you don't actually need to have a move like U-turn or Baton Pass to scout out the opponent's team - Gengar does a good job without any of these.

There are quite a few other ones as well but these were just the ones I could think off of the top of my head. So basically, from this you can see that a good offensive scout likes:

- a way of switching into many opponents, be it with resistances to common attacking types or an immunity.
- to be threatening enough to scare out a lot of common pokemon, allowing you to see much more of the opponent's team.
- being able to switch in repeatedly - SR weak pokemon are generally not good scouts.
- either a scouting move such as U-turn or Baton Pass, or lots of speed to be able to use Substitute (Protect could work too, so speed isn't all that essential, although Protect tends to be risky as the opponent can catch on and just stat up) before unpredictable pokemon can attack, so as to scout out what moves they use.

A defensive scout, such as Swampert, likes:

- to have a nice immunity or lots of resistances to switch in on, much like an offensive scout. This isn't because they are threatened otherwise, but rather simply so as to minimize the damage they have to take in order to scout repeatedly.
- good defensive stats to be able to take both special and physical attacks fairly well (Swampert > Donphan, Hippowdon, etc)
- an uncommon weakness, so that not many things can OHKO them.
- a side point, but the ability to set up Stealth Rock of its own means that it can do some damage while scouting with Roar / Whirlwind.

Anyway, just throwing all that out there. That's what I think is helpful in a good scout, so maybe this could spark some ideas about what we are looking for in our scout creation.

Vividsketch said:

For records sake, I think 'Transform' should be included on it.

Click to expand...

What exactly does Transform do? I know you get the 4 moves of your opponent, but I don't know you get the same stats (and EV's) as your opponent. The description on Smogon also seems more like a puzzle then a description to me.

I'm pretty sure 'Transform' also gives you that exact same stats and Ev's (except HP) as your opponent as well as ability. Though I don't know how helpful that is since I'm not sure you can actually check them, lol.

Posted by fat Yllnath
What exactly does Transform do? I know you get the 4 moves of your opponent, but I don't know you get the same stats (and EV's) as your opponent. The description on Smogon also seems more like a puzzle then a description to me.

Click to expand...

It copies all the exact stats (including boosts) and moves of the pokemon. I'm not sure about ability, though.

Something that would check Latias whilst discouraging Steels would be good. Particularly I would want this to scout SALAMENCE, Tyranitar, Gengar, Jirachi and Scizor as these all have sets that can punish you if you mispredict especially Mence with ridiculous BP moves running off even more ridiculous offensive stats.

And SR resist/spikes immune/sandstorm immune must be a priority if you're going to come in on stuff and u-turn out a lot. Speaking of which, high speed would help achieve this, I'm thinking 115 to outspeed Latias, Mence, Gengar. General all-round bulk and an ability like Frisk, especially when scouting Mence for LO or Specs or Band or Forewarn or something.

Also, typing is a very underrated way of scouting. Take Heatran for example, it can only be hit with specific attacks usually water attacks, fighting attacks and ground attacks. Hence you lure the Hydro Pump from Mence, Superpower from Scizor if its stupid and so forth, luring less powerful attacks almost all the time allowing your teammates to come in more easily so you don't need to make a split decision of say Hippowdon or Blissey for Specs or DD mence.

Forgive me if this has been brought up already, but... How about something fast that can use Transform, but also survive the hit, and give it an ability like Frisk or Anticipation. Sorry if this idea it too overpowered, but I figure Transform is one way to scout a Pokemon.

EDIT: Just saw it above me.

So that's the concept, huh? Pretty broad like Plus said. However, to me, using what we've got now won't be very exciting since much of the scouting methods are done by so many other Pokemon. Protect, Substitute, U-Turn, Yawn/ Roar, etc. are pretty obvious. I think we should create a new move or ability to solidify the concept. Could be simple as a 5 PP move that will instantly reveal a random Pokemon on your opponents team with some sort of cost. But that will come later, if it happens.

As for the Pokemon itself, it should be obviously fast (I'm thinkin 115 to 130 base Speed) with at least one good offensive stat. "Scouts" generally are fast, do their stuff, then get out quick. We don't need it to be bulky. That would probably change the concept.

I think this Pokemon should have extreme strengths and weaknesses. For example, having a massive defensive stat on one side and a very low defensive stat on the other side. Or it could possibly have the typing that allows it to come in and easily wall some Pokemon while being absolutely decimated by others.

So we basically can only scout one side of the spectrum with that? And mixed attackers would have a field day with CAP7 then and a possible free turn to boost as you need to switch out.

That doesn't seem right.

Flygon - Its either Band or Scarf
Infernape-This is basically always MixApe, so what is there to scout.
Jirachi - TrickBand/Scarf are the most common
Jolteon - Its fast, its a special attacker. Not much to scout really.
Latias-Usually CM since Specs are meh
Salamence - Got me here.
Vaporeon - No, this can't run an offensive set.
Celebi - Usually the wall for Argho, but some people run "offensive"
Cresselia - lol.
Lucario - SD rules, specs is used something like 3% of the time on SU.
Heatran - If it's a lead, it has Shuca Berry and SR. If it comes out later it's either scarf or the lead set.

So really, you only need to scout Mence, and sorta Heatran and Celebi out of that list. What I'm very surprised not to see on this list is Tyranitar, who can run Boah, DD, and CB (and I've seen all 3 on the server recently). I'm also surprised there's no mention of Zapdos, since it can run LO Sweeper or the wall set.

T-Tar and Zapdos give away what set they are by the first turn they're in. It's very rare (and usually by mistake) for a DD-Tar to not DD on something that can't OHKO and doesn't have SE Priority. Boah is really just sub abuse, so substitute will most likely be the first move, unless they absolutely need to kill the poke out, in which case you'll most likely see a special attack, which is an obvious tell. If they don't use DDance or Sub, and they hit your poke for a huge amount, it's most likely choice. All of these sets are usually revealed by the first move. As for Zapdos, I really don't see why you'd need to scout it. Unless you create an ability to tell us what EV's it's running, it's pretty much the same poke. 3 special moves and roost, unless it's choice, or in a BP team, the former is easy enough to figure out on the first turn (unless they miss or you switched a ground into a thunderbolt), the latter is fairly obvious, as they will be using BP pokes alongside it or if they lead with Zapdos, (unless they see something they know they can 1 or 2HKO) they will most likely use Agility to start the BP chain. MS is the same as the standard sets, only with one less special move.