np: Latios - "unban me"

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chenman333 said:
Based on the fact that most people on Suspect do run Latios, and most of those Latios run Specs, and I have at least achieved the lower requirements for voting under limited play time, my answer to you is

"No, I do not have problems with Specs Latios."
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I have to agree with this. No doubt about specs latios being a top threat in a suspect metagame and in a possible OU one, but from experience, I can not say that it's unstoppable.
More or less every choiced attacker in the actual metagame can deal an impressive amount of damage if you don't have a dedicated counter (think of specs-tran, cb-tar, cb-gross and so on) and latios is no exception. Now, if it's true that he's a heavy hitter, it's even true that rarely he's cabable of sweeping entire teams with his specs'ed attacks, and every skilled player who plays the suspect knows this. And yes, this is also (or mainly) because of his pursuit weakness. If a lot of teams pack vaporeon just to handle gyarados\infernape, what's bad with packing a pursuiter to handle lati@s?
Well, this is just my thought.

Oh, and this thread is not supposed to be a RMT, so please, do not focus on specific team weaknesses.

Have a nice day.
 
Haunterfan said:
The fact that when casting your vote you're forced to observe the 3 uber criterias defined by Jump, doesn't mean that you can not use other criterias in addition to those 3. In fact, when motivating my vote for latias in OU, I also included the "centralization factor" and my vote was accepted.
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yeah next time (if there is a next time for you) i wouldn't be so confident that aeolus and i are going to accept votes that deliberately attempt to stray from the criteria that our best minds spent seven months trying to arrive at. and this goes for anyone who qualifies for voting, ask tay
 
After actually testing the past Latios set, I'll have to be honest and say that it's not as great as it appears. It is somehow out classified by Kingdra, and is stopped cold by Blissey. I'm not really sure if it failed because I don't have super awesome skill in using rain dance teams, so if someone with further skills can, it would be great.

Anyways, I can see that most people on suspect (at least people i battled) use Stallish teams. The use of the move Protect is also increasing more and more. Almost every single team has a user of Protect, and some even have more than one. U-turn is also very common. You barely see Swords Dance Scizor anymore; all carry Choice Bands. A new thing is U-turn Infernape, although it is not common as the others.
Latios by itself, however, is not causing much havoc. If you're sure no Trick is coming, Blissey is a great switch-in. The Bronzong Legacy Raider suggested earlier is also a pretty solid switch-in. Although it cause massive damage, it can be easily revenged killed, and if it's Choiced, it can be dealt with with some predictions. Steels were overcentralizing the game before Lati@s anyways, so I wouldn't say we're just building our team to stop it.
 
Jumpman16 said:
yeah next time (if there is a next time for you) i wouldn't be so confident that aeolus and i are going to accept votes that deliberately attempt to stray from the criteria that our best minds spent seven months trying to arrive at. and this goes for anyone who qualifies for voting, ask tay
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No no, I absolutely didn't want to stray from your criterias and if with my post I've seemed to do, I publicly apologize (maybe it's just because of my only average knowledge of english).
I just wanted to say that besides observing those criterias (and mainly observing those, of course), people could also add others if they had.
 
Tyranitar @ Babiri Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
- Stone Edge
- Fire Punch / Earthquake
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I will try this set out and post back when I have finished (hopefully) winning some games so I can achieve the lower requirements for voting, it looks interesting.
 
Just curious, since I haven't followed the Suspect metagame much, what has the impact of Dual Screen Memento Latios been?
 
Yeah, Uxie is pretty much just as good in that regard anyway. I don't think anyone could begin to argue that the dual screen set could support a Latios in the support characteristic for an Uber, and it's not really been used as much recently, at least I haven't faced this for about a week now (and I've played a hell of a lot).
 
DS Uxie was only good because no one expected it, and Brick Break was incredibly uncommon. Now that Latios is on nearly every suspect team, everyone runs Brick Break instead of Superpower on their Scizor to prepare for it.
 
Jumpman16 said:
yeah next time (if there is a next time for you) i wouldn't be so confident that aeolus and i are going to accept votes that deliberately attempt to stray from the criteria that our best minds spent seven months trying to arrive at. and this goes for anyone who qualifies for voting, ask tay
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If these criteria are so important (which I agree that they're good and should be the basis of votes), why is it that FiveKRunner and other high qualifiers are allowed to ignore them? It seems like all of the 7 months of effort in PR just goes to waste when one has the Upper Criteria for voting.

That's an honest question, I don't understand the high voting qualifier in relation to the Characteristics.
 
Jumpman16 said:
I agree, and in short, we're addressing that with the hidden requirement.
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This is both great to hear (that the problem is being addressed) and absolutely terrifying.

The Suspect Test Facilitators have determined an unpublished but 100% objective requirement in addition to the 1760/55 and 1655/65 requirements posted.
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The problem that I mentioned was people using different premises to vote if you're above 1760. However, I don't see how it is possible to "100% objective[ly]" apply that to people. If Shoddy Random has 1780 / 50 as his ranking, how can you get a "100% objective" gauge on whether or not his vote is based on the uber Characteristics? No Shoddy stat will tell anyone that, no post history can be analyzed by a calculator (humans analyzing anything have inherent unintentional biases)... I simply see no way that the hidden requirement can address the problem and be 100% objective. (And the worst part is that there's no way to directly scrutinize the validity of this requirement, as it is hidden.)

Secondly, with that post you've basically stated that the secret requirement restricts people from voting whom otherwise would be able to. This is not right for a number of reasons, and I'm not here to argue the merits of having a secret restriction (that's what my blog is for). I thought I would just point this out to people, as I've been told by numerous badged users that it doesn't and I'm willing to bet that if this was made clearer on Page 1 then the thread would be dominated by users upset about this.
 
Syberia said:
It's not very good, because Scizors always seem to carry Brick Break to get rid of your screens.
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I'm actually surprised that more and more Scizors carry brick break nowdays instead of Superpower. (I still use superpower to OHKO heatran/Magnezone switchins and stuff) Last time I checked, scizors were carrying superpower a week or two ago.
 
Since I pack an SD Scizor ( I hate CB in general). I find Brick Break much more useful then Superpower. The fact it breaks screens, and with SD or another does as much as Superpower without reducing your power is something huge for me. It isn't just Latios. All the Alakazams that I see now are running dual screen, same with Cres with Reflect, and of course Bronzong.
As a result Brick Break becomes much more useful for me.
Latios is strong, but I just don't see him dominating the metagame, with so many common counters running around (Pursuit?)
 
SD Scizor isn't good at all... Choice Band is the best Scizor set. With U-Turn scouting, it really gives you the edge on the opponents team. Latios is very annoying and can sweep a team if the counters are taken out. If your last pokemon are zapdos/infernape/gyarados and the opponent has a CM latios it is game over =/. Most teams will need to have 2 counters to lati@s which imo overcentralizes the metagame. I would not like to see Latios in OU. If i do see it in OU, i would really like to see Garchomp come back.
 
Light-Kun said:
Latios is very annoying and can sweep a team if the counters are taken out.
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This applies to any Pokémon that has ever existed in any metagame of any copy of Pokémon.

If your last pokemon are zapdos/infernape/gyarados and the opponent has a CM latios it is game over =/.
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Generally when you let the things on your team that stop Threat X die then you get swept by Threat X.

Most teams will need to have 2 counters to lati@s which imo overcentralizes the metagame.
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Having / "requiring" two things that can somehow stop a Pokémon is not overcentralizing; in fact it is a poor idea _not_ to or else you'd need all 6 team members alive at all times to avoid getting swept. Not to mention that "overcentralizing" isn't even a valid argument in this test

I would not like to see Latios in OU. If i do see it in OU, i would really like to see Garchomp come back.
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Why?
 
Can't help myself.

I would not like to see Latios in OU. If i do see it in OU, i would really like to see Garchomp come back.
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Because they'll allow Latias in that test like with Latios, right?




I better elaborate to avoid deletion. Suspects are tested in isolation. Suspects should not be OU because another suspect keeps it in check. It makes stage 1 / 2 completely pointless and we would have to test in circles because something that proves uber now (say, Manaphy) may be kept in check by another suspect that makes OU later (say, Shaymin-S happens to make it). Defeats the purpose all together.

I HATE posts saying Garchomp should be OU because Latias (possibly Latios) keeps him in check. Nothing personal
 
Secondly, with that post you've basically stated that the secret requirement restricts people from voting whom otherwise would be able to.
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I think you yourself answered it best.

If these criteria are so important (which I agree that they're good and should be the basis of votes), why is it that FiveKRunner and other high qualifiers are allowed to ignore them? It seems like all of the 7 months of effort in PR just goes to waste when one has the Upper Criteria for voting.
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The secret requirement may restrict people from voting to ensure the quality of votes. There isn't much else that I can say other than that without giving out the criterion itself.

However, I don't see how it is possible to "100% objective[ly]" apply that to people. If Shoddy Random has 1780 / 50 as his ranking, how can you get a "100% objective" gauge on whether or not his vote is based on the uber Characteristics?
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Just because you are not able to see it does not mean that we have not been able to come up with a very good way and a criterion that is pretty much as objective as we can get to determine this.

No Shoddy stat will tell anyone that, no post history can be analyzed by a calculator (humans analyzing anything have inherent unintentional biases)... I simply see no way that the hidden requirement can address the problem and be 100% objective.
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Perhaps with that black and white picture of the world that's all you can see. I will ask you this.

"Is how we define OU objective"?
The short answer is, yes. OU is a Pokemon that is used on one in twenty teams. The long answer is that you can throw in as many things about questioning how our definition is flawed, but the short answer is based on these premises it is objective.

(And the worst part is that there's no way to directly scrutinize the validity of this requirement, as it is hidden.)
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cool, don't worry about it. People much more capable than you have discussed the objectives a long time ago.

As I have said this before, I will say this again.

If you stay true to the the Suspect Test, you will have met the secret requirements by the time you met the normal requirements. In fact, in the majority of cases the secret requirement will increase the voter pool, which is precisely why it is hidden because we don't want people abusing it.

First of all, “I told you so”. One problem with secret requirements is that these kind of things are ambiguous; if you don’t know exactly what it is you can never be sure.
Secondly, we can’t as a community stand for this. Spread the word, get upset. So far it seems this is happening, keep it up.
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"Right"

Next time alert us when you have actual point and not just flaunt the fact that you obviously haven't thought this through.

EDIT: I highly recommend not posting about this matter again - if you're against the fact that it's secret, that's great. However I recommend not posting shit like "Simply put, there's no possible way a number or shoddy stat (the only 100% objective anything) can possibly be used in a manner that determines the premises for how one decides the tiering of the Pokémon in question" which is pretty much wrong lol. Accusing me of not understanding your "point" because I'm challenging your questions in a different way is a terrible idea, btw. Drop the subject, since there's really not much else we can reveal and so it's generally fruitless.

(originally jumpman said it wouldn't prevent anyone from qualifying but that has changed in this thread)
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The purpose of the secret requirement in the end, is to increase the voter pool. It may restrict people who did not meet the requirement, however.

What he said.. hasn't really changed.
 
Ok. A few people were confused about this so I'm going to try to clarify the rating requirements and how you calculate them.

STEP 1: Log onto the Smogon University server on ShoddyBattle.
If you are not able to connect via the main connection screen, click the "Advanced" option. The details for the server are as follows:
Host: shoddybattle.smogon.com
Port: 50000

STEP 2: In the main chat window, type "/record yourusername". So, for me, I would type /record Stellar.

STEP 3: A window should pop up that looks like this one:
Rating1.png

Here you see all the various ratings for the different ladders on the server.

STEP 4: For this test, you need to focus on the Suspect ladder. The section for the Suspect ladder is found fourth on the list and looks like this:
rating3.png


For this test, the Conservative Rating Estimate (CRE) does not matter. This is the score that is displayed on the leaderboard, but a high CRE is not required for voting rights. You do, however, need to achieve a rating of 1655 or above and a deviation of 65 or below. In order to achieve the "high end" rating, you need a rating of 1760 or above and a deviation of 55 or below. I will now explain how to calculate rating and deviation.

STEP 5: In order to find your rating, you add the two numbers found to the right of "Rating:". The, you divide the resulting sum by 2. So in this case, it would look like this.
(1485 + 1686)/2 = 3170/2 = 1585.5
1585.5 would be the rating.

STEP 6: In order to find your deviation, you take the larger number found to the right of "Rating:" and subtract the lower number found to the right of "Rating:" and divide the difference by 2. It will look like this:
(1686 - 1485)/2 = 201/2 = 100.5
100.5 would be the deviation.

Therefore, the stats would be:
1585.5 / 100.5

If your rating is above 1655 and your deviation is below 65 at the conclusion of the test, you will more than likely be able to vote, however you will be required to write a short paragraph. If you achieved the "high end" rating of 1760 / 55, you will not have to write this paragraph. Remember, in this test there is a secret unpublished requirement, so your right to vote might be denied depending on this requirement.

I hope no one is confused now. :)
 
Thanks for clearing it up. A lot of people asked me how to do it as well, and it got tiring to explain it every time.

Anyways, when will the suspect test end? I heard voting reqs had to be met by the end of Feb, but it doesn't look like that's the case.
 
Thanks Stellar for clearing that up. This is my first time using the Suspect Ladder.

Also the test ends on March 5th as Unholy Calamity said. It's in the 3rd post of the thread.
 
Only a couple days left, if you wanna impact the metagame you better get on the Suspect Ladder.

I don't think one can really stress how important this is for the metagame. This is also vital to our community, to show our own dedication and knowledge. Normal members did not have the privilege to decide tiering in the third gen, so don't take this for granted!
 
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