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New and "creative" moveset/EV spread thread. Mk. 3
- Thread starter Tangerine
- Start date
- Status
Yeah it does. Eh it was supposed to be more of a game breaker than a sweeper. Most stall teams really fall apart after losing Blissey and everybody needs a little surprise factor =P. Better change the EVs.
Bounce-ados
I feel that the entry in gyara's analysis didn't properly flesh out the possibilities of the move Bounce on the big lug. The analysis moveset takes advantage of the great coverage gyara gets with just two stab moves by sticking sub in the place that would normally be occupied by a third attack. Waterfall and Bounce make a terrific combo for carefully manuvering and methodically taking out an opponent's weakened team, unlike the flashy "dance and pray" strategy that comes with the more popular life orb sets.
This is a good thing, but I think that third moveslot would be more effectively allocated to everyone's fav, taunt,
Taunt Bounce-ados (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 112 HP/252 Atk/144 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Bounce
- Taunt
- Waterfall
EVs: 252 attack, 144 speed outpaces the 110 group after a DD, and the rest in HP to absorb taunted attacks.
With taunt, gyara is able to shut down the protects that would foil the sub set, and prevent any setup attempts from an opponent predicting bounce turns.
You may also notice that this gyara is equipped with leftovers, which allows it to absorb a taunted attack and most importantly milk the extra bounce turns to its advantage. I personally have been testing this gyara with a very interesting wish/light screen jolteon to keep gyara healthy and a choice specs lucario to severly punish the tyranitars whose sandstorms give bounce-ados trouble.
Damage calcs: (percentage format is min...avg...max)
+1 Bounce to 252hp/224def Bold Celebi:
Percentages:80.69% 87.62% 95.54%
+1 Bounce to 208hp/252def Bold Vaporeon:
Percentages:32.01% 34.66% 37.97%
+2 Bounce to 208hp/252def Bold Vaporeon:
Percentages:64.24% 69.54% 75.72%
+0 Bounce to 156hp/100def Adamant Gyarados (bulkygyara):
Percentages:43.24% 46.49% 51.08%
+1 Bounce (2 DD 1 intimidate) to 156hp/100def Adamant Gyarados (bulkygyara):
Percentages:64.86% 70.00% 76.49%
I feel that the entry in gyara's analysis didn't properly flesh out the possibilities of the move Bounce on the big lug. The analysis moveset takes advantage of the great coverage gyara gets with just two stab moves by sticking sub in the place that would normally be occupied by a third attack. Waterfall and Bounce make a terrific combo for carefully manuvering and methodically taking out an opponent's weakened team, unlike the flashy "dance and pray" strategy that comes with the more popular life orb sets.
This is a good thing, but I think that third moveslot would be more effectively allocated to everyone's fav, taunt,
Taunt Bounce-ados (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 112 HP/252 Atk/144 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Bounce
- Taunt
- Waterfall
EVs: 252 attack, 144 speed outpaces the 110 group after a DD, and the rest in HP to absorb taunted attacks.
With taunt, gyara is able to shut down the protects that would foil the sub set, and prevent any setup attempts from an opponent predicting bounce turns.
You may also notice that this gyara is equipped with leftovers, which allows it to absorb a taunted attack and most importantly milk the extra bounce turns to its advantage. I personally have been testing this gyara with a very interesting wish/light screen jolteon to keep gyara healthy and a choice specs lucario to severly punish the tyranitars whose sandstorms give bounce-ados trouble.
Damage calcs: (percentage format is min...avg...max)
+1 Bounce to 252hp/224def Bold Celebi:
Percentages:80.69% 87.62% 95.54%
+1 Bounce to 208hp/252def Bold Vaporeon:
Percentages:32.01% 34.66% 37.97%
+2 Bounce to 208hp/252def Bold Vaporeon:
Percentages:64.24% 69.54% 75.72%
+0 Bounce to 156hp/100def Adamant Gyarados (bulkygyara):
Percentages:43.24% 46.49% 51.08%
+1 Bounce (2 DD 1 intimidate) to 156hp/100def Adamant Gyarados (bulkygyara):
Percentages:64.86% 70.00% 76.49%
I think Life Orb would be better on your Taunt-bounce gyarados imo. That 30% power boost lets you turn those 2HKO's into OHKO's (with SR of course) Besides, the Gyarados isn't exactly very bulky, so I can't see leftovers helping it TOO much (sure bounce helps w/ that, but I think getting some OHKO's is worth losing the leftover heals)
Leftovers > Life Orb on that Gyara. Life Orb will make it go down quick, especially when your opponent can switch in to avoid Bounce so easily.
That's pretty much BulkyGyara with Bounce over Stone Edge and a slightly different EV spread (more attack, less HP and def, and the same speed).
That's pretty much BulkyGyara with Bounce over Stone Edge and a slightly different EV spread (more attack, less HP and def, and the same speed).
Anti-Manaphy Latias
Well, this is a new EV spread I guess. While looking at the Manaphy suspect, I decided to think of ways to counter/check it. I thought Latios, with Specs Meteor/Thunder being able to OHKO it, then Latias, who seemed a bit shaky at first, but I realized it's possible.
Before you say it, yes I'm aware that Latias can't be used in the Manaphy Suspect. I don't know why really, so if someone can explain that to me I'd be happy. Don't tell me "putting the suspect in isolation", because I already know that, unless you can explain it to me in depth.
But by any chance Manaphy becomes OU...
I created two spreads; one is bulkier and sits at 330 Speed, the other is less bulky and has a chance for Manaphy to break through (very little, though), but it has maximum Speed. Both are geared to stop BOTH Tail Glow Life Orb and Leftovers from Timid Manaphy, assuming no HP/SDef. We'll assume that Rain is present (due to people saying Rain teams are everywhere now), and Stealth Rock is on both sides. We'll also assume Latias switches in on a Tail Glow and uses Calm Mind (because switching into an attack is less dangerous than switching in on Tail Glow, obviously). Note that this is a theory with damage calcs. I'll only mention the 350 Speed one, because you have plenty of room to mess around if you drop the Speed to 330.
Spread 1: Maximum Speed.
Latias @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 129 HP / 252 Spd / 129 SDef
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Dragon Pulse
- Thunder
- Recover
Seem familiar? Yes, this is the uber set, with EV tweaks and no Soul Dew. Beware of TTar and Scizor mainly.
Okay, I'll assume that your reaction to this spread is not so pleasant, but I assure you that it's carefully calculated and it just ended up looking like a 252/129/129 spread. That happened to me with Donphan before (trying to 2HKO Chomp with Ice Shard while having enough Def to do something...)
Damage Calcs:
299 SA +2 Ice Beam vs 328*1.5 SDef (One Calm Mind):
(166, 168, 170, 172, 174, 176, 178, 180, 182, 184, 186, 188, 190, 192, 194, 196)
299 SA +2 Ice Beam vs 328*2 SDef (2 Calm Minds)
(124, 126, 128, 130, 130, 132, 134, 136, 136, 138, 140, 142, 142, 144, 146, 148)
Oh and finally, for those of you doubting Latias' survivability
299 SA +2 Ice Beam vs 328 SDef (no boosts)
(248, 252, 254, 258, 260, 264, 266, 270, 272, 276, 278, 282, 284, 288, 290, 294)
Latias will survive the hit and easily 2HKOes Manaphy with Thunder if you don't feel like Calm Minding
Mix and match the numbers yourself to figure out the chances the blob will kill Latias. For instance, if the first shot deals maximum damage, then the second shot has 7/16 chance of KOing Latias, but what are the chances of that really?
299 SA +2 Life Orb Ice Beam vs 328*1.5 SDef (One Calm Mind)
(214, 218, 220, 222, 226, 228, 230, 232, 236, 238, 240, 242, 246, 248, 250, 254)
Whoa that seems a lot. Don't worry, though, as LO damage will set Manaphy up for a Thunder kill.
If Manaphy tries to get smart and Tail Glow twice to avoid Life Orb setting it up into kill range, you can get one more Calm Mind
299 SA +4 Life Orb Ice Beam vs. 328*2 SDef (Two Calm Minds)
(244, 246, 250, 252, 256, 258, 262, 264, 266, 270, 272, 276, 278, 282, 284, 288)
On the offensive side there's really nothing to note. Latias doesn't need any SA EVs to OHKO Life Orb Manaphy with +1 Thunder if it takes SR and LO damage.
Final notes:
While this does seem very specifically built, it can help against other special attackers. One thing this can stop is offensive CMCune, and Latias can easily swap in and CM alongside it, and Suicune knows pretty darn well it's not going to get past Latias with Life Orb dragging it down and Ice Beam failing to 2HKO it, and there's always the threat of Thunder.
279 SA Life Orb Ice Beam vs 328 SDef (no boosts)
(150, 152, 154, 156, 158, 160, 160, 162, 164, 166, 168, 170, 172, 174, 176, 178)
1/8 chance to 2HKO, and you can keep on Recovering until Suicune hits 174 damage or less, and then you'll know Suicune's not going to KO you in the next turn. Sandstorm will ultimately cut up Suicune's life
Heatran's Dragon Pulse:
359 SA Dragon Pulse vs 328 SDef Latias (no boosts)
(142, 144, 146, 146, 148, 150, 152, 154, 156, 156, 158, 160, 162, 164, 166, 168)
meh
Kill me here, because I know almost nothing about the OU metagame nowadays. Just beware of Scizor, Bliss and Tar, but on the plus side CM Cune no longer walls you because Thunder + Thunder + Dragon Pulse = dead Cune. I suppose relying on Thunder isn't the best thing around, but hey that's how far you'll get when you're trying to counter a specific Pokemon
Well, this is a new EV spread I guess. While looking at the Manaphy suspect, I decided to think of ways to counter/check it. I thought Latios, with Specs Meteor/Thunder being able to OHKO it, then Latias, who seemed a bit shaky at first, but I realized it's possible.
Before you say it, yes I'm aware that Latias can't be used in the Manaphy Suspect. I don't know why really, so if someone can explain that to me I'd be happy. Don't tell me "putting the suspect in isolation", because I already know that, unless you can explain it to me in depth.
But by any chance Manaphy becomes OU...
I created two spreads; one is bulkier and sits at 330 Speed, the other is less bulky and has a chance for Manaphy to break through (very little, though), but it has maximum Speed. Both are geared to stop BOTH Tail Glow Life Orb and Leftovers from Timid Manaphy, assuming no HP/SDef. We'll assume that Rain is present (due to people saying Rain teams are everywhere now), and Stealth Rock is on both sides. We'll also assume Latias switches in on a Tail Glow and uses Calm Mind (because switching into an attack is less dangerous than switching in on Tail Glow, obviously). Note that this is a theory with damage calcs. I'll only mention the 350 Speed one, because you have plenty of room to mess around if you drop the Speed to 330.
Spread 1: Maximum Speed.
Latias @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 129 HP / 252 Spd / 129 SDef
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Dragon Pulse
- Thunder
- Recover
Seem familiar? Yes, this is the uber set, with EV tweaks and no Soul Dew. Beware of TTar and Scizor mainly.
Okay, I'll assume that your reaction to this spread is not so pleasant, but I assure you that it's carefully calculated and it just ended up looking like a 252/129/129 spread. That happened to me with Donphan before (trying to 2HKO Chomp with Ice Shard while having enough Def to do something...)
Damage Calcs:
299 SA +2 Ice Beam vs 328*1.5 SDef (One Calm Mind):
(166, 168, 170, 172, 174, 176, 178, 180, 182, 184, 186, 188, 190, 192, 194, 196)
299 SA +2 Ice Beam vs 328*2 SDef (2 Calm Minds)
(124, 126, 128, 130, 130, 132, 134, 136, 136, 138, 140, 142, 142, 144, 146, 148)
Oh and finally, for those of you doubting Latias' survivability
299 SA +2 Ice Beam vs 328 SDef (no boosts)
(248, 252, 254, 258, 260, 264, 266, 270, 272, 276, 278, 282, 284, 288, 290, 294)
Latias will survive the hit and easily 2HKOes Manaphy with Thunder if you don't feel like Calm Minding
Mix and match the numbers yourself to figure out the chances the blob will kill Latias. For instance, if the first shot deals maximum damage, then the second shot has 7/16 chance of KOing Latias, but what are the chances of that really?
299 SA +2 Life Orb Ice Beam vs 328*1.5 SDef (One Calm Mind)
(214, 218, 220, 222, 226, 228, 230, 232, 236, 238, 240, 242, 246, 248, 250, 254)
Whoa that seems a lot. Don't worry, though, as LO damage will set Manaphy up for a Thunder kill.
If Manaphy tries to get smart and Tail Glow twice to avoid Life Orb setting it up into kill range, you can get one more Calm Mind
299 SA +4 Life Orb Ice Beam vs. 328*2 SDef (Two Calm Minds)
(244, 246, 250, 252, 256, 258, 262, 264, 266, 270, 272, 276, 278, 282, 284, 288)
On the offensive side there's really nothing to note. Latias doesn't need any SA EVs to OHKO Life Orb Manaphy with +1 Thunder if it takes SR and LO damage.
Final notes:
While this does seem very specifically built, it can help against other special attackers. One thing this can stop is offensive CMCune, and Latias can easily swap in and CM alongside it, and Suicune knows pretty darn well it's not going to get past Latias with Life Orb dragging it down and Ice Beam failing to 2HKO it, and there's always the threat of Thunder.
279 SA Life Orb Ice Beam vs 328 SDef (no boosts)
(150, 152, 154, 156, 158, 160, 160, 162, 164, 166, 168, 170, 172, 174, 176, 178)
1/8 chance to 2HKO, and you can keep on Recovering until Suicune hits 174 damage or less, and then you'll know Suicune's not going to KO you in the next turn. Sandstorm will ultimately cut up Suicune's life
Heatran's Dragon Pulse:
359 SA Dragon Pulse vs 328 SDef Latias (no boosts)
(142, 144, 146, 146, 148, 150, 152, 154, 156, 156, 158, 160, 162, 164, 166, 168)
meh
Kill me here, because I know almost nothing about the OU metagame nowadays. Just beware of Scizor, Bliss and Tar, but on the plus side CM Cune no longer walls you because Thunder + Thunder + Dragon Pulse = dead Cune. I suppose relying on Thunder isn't the best thing around, but hey that's how far you'll get when you're trying to counter a specific Pokemon
I have a moveset I came up with for Togekiss. After trying it out some, It's safe to say that this is a pretty good moveset for Togekiss to use in order to utilize Counter, and possibly support the team a bit with Light Screen.
Counter @Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Calm (+S.Def -Atk)
EVs: 252 HP, 252 Def, 6 S.Def
Moveset
Counter
Air Slash
Roost
Light Screen
If there's a special attacker out, or whenever you get the chance to use it when Togekiss' health is satisfactory, Light Screen makes taking Special Attacks easier. With EVs placed in HP and Defense, it take quite a bit of punishment on the physical side, which lets it use Counter on most physical attackers for a surprise KO. If said attacker is a Ghost or is about to faint, Air Slash will let it hit the opponent and potentially be flinched into oblivion.
Roost is there so it can go up for another round with Counter.
This set is best used with a Rapid Spinner in the wings so Stealth Rock won't be an issue, and some Wish support can also make life easier for Togekiss.
Counter @Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Calm (+S.Def -Atk)
EVs: 252 HP, 252 Def, 6 S.Def
Moveset
Counter
Air Slash
Roost
Light Screen
If there's a special attacker out, or whenever you get the chance to use it when Togekiss' health is satisfactory, Light Screen makes taking Special Attacks easier. With EVs placed in HP and Defense, it take quite a bit of punishment on the physical side, which lets it use Counter on most physical attackers for a surprise KO. If said attacker is a Ghost or is about to faint, Air Slash will let it hit the opponent and potentially be flinched into oblivion.
Roost is there so it can go up for another round with Counter.
This set is best used with a Rapid Spinner in the wings so Stealth Rock won't be an issue, and some Wish support can also make life easier for Togekiss.
Couldn't you say the same of any gyarados set? "Pretty much bulkygyara with different moves and more attack." The set isn't revolutionary, but it's meant for different things than bulkygyara.
Pokemon: Mamoswine
Set Name: Anti-Lead Mamo
Nature: Adamant
Ability: Snow Cloak
Item: Life Orb / Focus Sash
EVs: 252 Atk/196 Spe/60 HP
Attacks:
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Avalanche
- Stealth Rock / Roar
First, I really need some help on the EV spread. The only thing set in stone is the 252 Attack, which it must have. I put on the 196 in Speed just so it could out-run an Jolly T-Tars coming in. And then I just threw the rest into HP
Ok, so I checked the "Smogon Shoddy Server Pokemon Usage - February 2009" thread for the most common leads used. As I am looking at them I see that just about all of them are Mamoswine weak. So with that in mind I figured I would run some calcs to see how this Mamo would fare against the most common leads......and it does well.
Before I go into how it handles the leads, I want just a quick look at the attacks. EQ and Ice Shard are there for strong STAB and a priority move, kinda works like Metagross with MM and BP. Avalanche is for a stronger STAB against the opponents that are faster than you, when you want to deal more damage. The last slot is really up to you, you could setup rocks or you could phaze away a lead you can't handle.
These are the Top 15 leads, statistically, and how Mamo handles them:
Metagross- OHKO with EQ
Azelf- Avalanche+Ice Shard, has a small possibilty of not 2HKO
Infernape- Mamo can't touch this thing if it has Fake-out, which it always does. I figure since there are a ton of Heatrans running around this would be the perfect time to switch in and take the fire attack.
Jirachi- OHKO with EQ, becareful of hax, if u get haxed u will die.
Aerodactyl- Avalanche+Ice Shard
Swampert- Mamo can't handle this unless it has Roar, then you just phaze it out.
Bronzong- Mamo hates Zong, either Phaze or switch.
Tyranitar- EQ+Ice Shard
Hippowdon- The most Mamo can do is either Phaze or try for a 3HKO
Heatran- You can only take this on with Focus Sash, EQ kills it.
Ninjask- Roar or Ice Shard
Gengar- Avalanche+Ice Shard
Ambipom- EQ
Yanmega- Avalanche+Ice Shard
Salamence- Avalanche+Ice Shard
So this thing can take out pretty much 11-12/15 of the most common leads. I use it solely for Meta who is hella annoying.
Pokemon: Mamoswine
Set Name: Anti-Lead Mamo
Nature: Adamant
Ability: Snow Cloak
Item: Life Orb / Focus Sash
EVs: 252 Atk/196 Spe/60 HP
Attacks:
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Avalanche
- Stealth Rock / Roar
First, I really need some help on the EV spread. The only thing set in stone is the 252 Attack, which it must have. I put on the 196 in Speed just so it could out-run an Jolly T-Tars coming in. And then I just threw the rest into HP
Ok, so I checked the "Smogon Shoddy Server Pokemon Usage - February 2009" thread for the most common leads used. As I am looking at them I see that just about all of them are Mamoswine weak. So with that in mind I figured I would run some calcs to see how this Mamo would fare against the most common leads......and it does well.
Before I go into how it handles the leads, I want just a quick look at the attacks. EQ and Ice Shard are there for strong STAB and a priority move, kinda works like Metagross with MM and BP. Avalanche is for a stronger STAB against the opponents that are faster than you, when you want to deal more damage. The last slot is really up to you, you could setup rocks or you could phaze away a lead you can't handle.
These are the Top 15 leads, statistically, and how Mamo handles them:
Metagross- OHKO with EQ
Azelf- Avalanche+Ice Shard, has a small possibilty of not 2HKO
Infernape- Mamo can't touch this thing if it has Fake-out, which it always does. I figure since there are a ton of Heatrans running around this would be the perfect time to switch in and take the fire attack.
Jirachi- OHKO with EQ, becareful of hax, if u get haxed u will die.
Aerodactyl- Avalanche+Ice Shard
Swampert- Mamo can't handle this unless it has Roar, then you just phaze it out.
Bronzong- Mamo hates Zong, either Phaze or switch.
Tyranitar- EQ+Ice Shard
Hippowdon- The most Mamo can do is either Phaze or try for a 3HKO
Heatran- You can only take this on with Focus Sash, EQ kills it.
Ninjask- Roar or Ice Shard
Gengar- Avalanche+Ice Shard
Ambipom- EQ
Yanmega- Avalanche+Ice Shard
Salamence- Avalanche+Ice Shard
So this thing can take out pretty much 11-12/15 of the most common leads. I use it solely for Meta who is hella annoying.
I think Stone Edge is a good move to use in place of Avalanche. Also, you want Jolly speed around 252 EVs because that way you can outrun Max speed Heatran without a scarf.
This set isn't entirely creative as many people have started using it but it is good to have documented somewhere.
That Mamoswine lead seems good, but in the impending trend of increasing usage of Swampert and Gyarados leads to counter Metagross will eventually make it obsolete. But I'll use it for now.
Counter @Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Bold (+Def -Atk)
EVs: 252 HP, 152 Def, 100 S.Def, 6 S.Atk
Moveset
Counter
Air Slash
Roost
Light Screen
If there's a special attacker out, or whenever you get the chance to use it when Togekiss' health is satisfactory, Light Screen makes taking Special Attacks easier. With EVs placed in HP and Defense, it take quite a bit of punishment on the physical side, which lets it use Counter on most physical attackers for a surprise KO. If said attacker is a Ghost or is about to faint, Air Slash will let it hit the opponent and potentially be flinched into oblivion.
Roost is there so it can go up for another round with Counter.
What if you made it Calm and moved more SpD EVs into Defense? Since it has a higher SpD, the nature will make up for the reduced EVs, potentially allowing for Togekiss to achieve both a higher Def and SpD.
Just something minor. Mamo's weak to fighting moves too, so Heatran might be switching in on the close combat instead of the fire move.
@hhjj: For that Togekiss set:
Bold 252 HP / 152 Def / 100 SDef nets 374 / 290 / 291 for defenses, while
Calm 252 HP / 252 Def / 0 SDef nets 374 / 289 / 292 for defenses, so, neither dominates.
Probably will get laughed off the stage or ignored (but that'd be good if others don't take this set seriously).
Anti-Platinum Lead Gyara
Jolly
@Choice Band
252 ATK 252 SPEED 4 HP
-Taunt
-Waterfall
-Earthquake
-Outrage
This guy is not so far off the beaten trail (for gyarados) that it seems insane, but there are some important notable distinctions that probably ought to be pointed out.
Jolly Nature
Jolly Gyara outruns a lot of important leads (that adamant does not), including +speed heatran, smeargle, breloom and metagross. If these guys outspeed you, you know you have a scarfer on your hands.
Choice Band
Choice Band may seem like a ridiculous item on lead Gyara, especially since I've opted to keep Taunt, but it accomplishes a lot.
-It keeps Gyara hitting hard. You lose a LOT of power going from Adamant to Jolly, and Gyara will be missing a lot of important margins against bronzong, metagross, jirachi, swampert and hippowdon.
-You also don't want tanks like Jirachi, Celebi, Starmie, and Zapdoes to be too comfortable coming in. The damage between LO and CB is pretty important (no, I'm not taking time to do calcs for all the different pokes who likely meddle with their spreads a lot anyway).
-CB screws with Trick users. This is probably the most important part of using CB over LO. Trick Gross and Jirachi being stuck into trick v. setting up rocks makes a big difference.
Taunt??
Taunt really fucks with people's minds, especially since most of the pokemon who hate getting taunted are fucked by not just gyara, but by anything once they've been taunted. Either they'll stay in, and let you bring in something to lol off their pathetic attacks and set up your own rocks, or you'll just get a double switch. Even if it's a double switch, you can switch to a "secondary lead" waiting in the wings to set up, while their primary lead has gotten it's game screwed.
Outrage
Gyara pretty much needs a 3rd offensive move to hit those that resist water/ground. The most typical option is stone edge, followed by bounce. Outrage is generally shunned on anything not-dragon, but here it actually find itself very useful.
-Outrage provides 100% accuracy. Screw you stone edge
-Outrage provides terrific coverage with both water and ground attacks
-Outrage hits kingdra, flygon and lati@s, all of whom are important targets. Flygon because Gyara is generally a good check against it, and the others because they love so much to try and check gyarados (especially when they find out it's choiced). Instead, Gyara becomes a check against them (especially against Kingdras trying to set up on teammates). Intimidating and Outraging Kingdra to hell has made gyara especially useful to me.
-Obvious is the benefit of 1hko'ing all those damned dragons-- to hell with Salamence, Lati@s, Flygon and Kingdra. . . . and Dragonite. xD While all of these pokes have sets they can use to beat Gyara (generally involving boosted Draco Meteors), Gyara also can beat a number of these sets, particularly set up/physical ones.
On a note, with no leftovers, SR weak, Choiced (and therefore forced to switch in/out a lot) and no defensive ev investment, CB-Gyara is on a crash-course from the get go. Don't get too attached to it, abuse it like a red-haired step child and don't be afraid to throw it into the enemy lines of fire when necessary (intimidating the enemy as it falls).
Keeping CB-Gyara's suicidal mentality in mind, Outrage fits in nicely, letting Gyara achieve a lot in its limited time. In the early game, trying to predict is a bitch, and sometimes the raw force of a 120 base dragon attack is the best general answer. Sure Outrage locks you in, but even non-STAB, CB Outrage coming from 125 base attack is not easy to set up on (especially when no one sees it coming, therefore no one knows to throw a steel type out infront of it until outrage is practically over or gyara is practically dead from sand). As an additional deterrent, most steel types are not fond of trying to switch into Gyara's general onslaught of Waterfalls and Earthquakes.
Against Typical Leads:
Outsped and 1hko'd by waterfall. Screw you Shuca berry.
Scarf Jirachi . . . Intimidate + Water Type takes Iron Head out of the picture, and weakens thunderpunch. Earthquake wallops it. Waterfall can also 2hko some ev spreads. If it tries to trick you it gets locked into trick. Just make sure not to go for the second earthquake or prepare to let enemy flyging type come in.
This one can be a bitch. Stupid Clear Body . . . Taunt is the safe way to go, pretty much taking SR out of the picture. If they trick you a scarf, they're forced to switch (locked into trick, but also taunted). If they go to SR without scarf they just get taunted. The unfortunate thing is that after taunting you're forced to switch out, meaning they get a free turn to *possibly* attack you (have a Metagross counter on hand). Of course they could get scared off by potential LO earthquake and you'll get a double-switch (bring a set-up poke in the wings). The worst case scenario is Thunder Punch Metagross, but they're rare as leads (since gyara is rare as a lead).
If you hate weird mind games with choice'd taunt, you can always just earthquake it for massive damage. Waterfall can 2hko some of the less-bulky spreads.
Gets SR Up, but gets the shit beat out of it, basically leaving you at 6 v. 5. Endeavor Infernape can screw you, but eh . . . you can't win 'em all.
Have a bulky TTar on your team. Period. Waterfall the first turn to knock the lights out of azelf. Then bring in ttar. With any luck, you can kill it with sand, or it will explode. After intimidate Azelf' Explosion does lol damage unless it invests heavily in attack. Similar to Infernape, you're starting the game 6 v. 5, but with the enemy having SR up (a favorable result in my book).
It's getting SR up, but you're taking it down a peg with waterfall. If you have a scarf flygon on your team, bring it in after your first attack to kill aero with u-turn. Otherwise, you could have some issues.
1 of 2 things can happen here. Either you taunt these guys and turn them into set up fodder, or they sleep you. In the case of the latter you know that they're scarfed, and that you've successfully activated sleep clause (while still being able to abuse intimidate) while they now have a (relatively) unusable poke on their team.
Intimidate helps. First Waterfall while they D-Punch. Now switch to Swampert (in this case you need neutral nature + some speed evs)/Flygon to absorb thunderpunch/stone edge and finish them off.
You've already kind of screwed the baton pass game with intimidate. You then have to play a guessing game between taunt and waterfall. Have fun.
Waterfall will leave this heavily damaged or even 1hko depending on their spread. In addition, Flinch can and will come into play. Intimidate also weakens its Stone Edge, and the immediate threat of death by waterfall keeps stealth rock off the field.
The following are Gyarados' bitches:
(Against these two it's really fun to switch in a CB scizor as they fake out and U-Turn them to death. Intimidate turns them into set-up fodder as well)
Taunt + Intimidate turns these into set-up fodder for your teamates:
The only typical leads that could give you issues Zappy and Abomasnow, and they're still pretty rare as a lead. In that case at least, Zappy cannot set up SR. Just go to your t-wave absorber and have fun. Abomasnow also has no SR. If you really hate Abomasnow, just pack Stone Edge over Outrage.
Notable Team Mates:
No Lead can beat all other leads, so some important team-work is needed to cover the holes.
Tyranitar is Gyara's best friend. TTar switch in is the best way to handle a near-dead azelf, and can be used to finish off infernape too (who will never be using CC against Gyarados). Tyranitar, especially special tyranitar, is also a great switch in to Starmie, Rotom, Zapdos and Jolteon who all love to try to deal with Gyara. Also provides a check to Gengar and Celebi. Sand also removes Vaporeon's Leftovers, important in keeping the little blue mermaid whore from being too much of a whore. Also important for getting rid of hail. Sand also provides Gyara with a count-down clock. Without LO, Gyara has no way of killing itself, important when you're a sweeper who could potentially be turned into set up fodder-- this is especially important when trying to abuse Outrage.
Absorbs Rock/Electric attacks. Can come in on pokes that Gyara has Taunted/Intimidated and set up its own rocks. Can help kill machamp if it packs some speed.
Also can absorb electric/rock attacks and is very useful for finishing off weakened foes with U-Turn, notably aerodactyle. Also makes an excellent Celebi check of sorts, absorbing t-wave, taking only around 33% from grass knot/energy ball, and able to 1hko with CB or do like 60~70% with Scarf U-Turn.
Yeah, fitting swampert and flygon on the same team can be difficult. >.>
Anti-Platinum Lead Gyara
Jolly
@Choice Band
252 ATK 252 SPEED 4 HP
-Taunt
-Waterfall
-Earthquake
-Outrage
This guy is not so far off the beaten trail (for gyarados) that it seems insane, but there are some important notable distinctions that probably ought to be pointed out.
Jolly Nature
Jolly Gyara outruns a lot of important leads (that adamant does not), including +speed heatran, smeargle, breloom and metagross. If these guys outspeed you, you know you have a scarfer on your hands.
Choice Band
Choice Band may seem like a ridiculous item on lead Gyara, especially since I've opted to keep Taunt, but it accomplishes a lot.
-It keeps Gyara hitting hard. You lose a LOT of power going from Adamant to Jolly, and Gyara will be missing a lot of important margins against bronzong, metagross, jirachi, swampert and hippowdon.
-You also don't want tanks like Jirachi, Celebi, Starmie, and Zapdoes to be too comfortable coming in. The damage between LO and CB is pretty important (no, I'm not taking time to do calcs for all the different pokes who likely meddle with their spreads a lot anyway).
-CB screws with Trick users. This is probably the most important part of using CB over LO. Trick Gross and Jirachi being stuck into trick v. setting up rocks makes a big difference.
Taunt??
Taunt really fucks with people's minds, especially since most of the pokemon who hate getting taunted are fucked by not just gyara, but by anything once they've been taunted. Either they'll stay in, and let you bring in something to lol off their pathetic attacks and set up your own rocks, or you'll just get a double switch. Even if it's a double switch, you can switch to a "secondary lead" waiting in the wings to set up, while their primary lead has gotten it's game screwed.
Outrage
Gyara pretty much needs a 3rd offensive move to hit those that resist water/ground. The most typical option is stone edge, followed by bounce. Outrage is generally shunned on anything not-dragon, but here it actually find itself very useful.
-Outrage provides 100% accuracy. Screw you stone edge
-Outrage provides terrific coverage with both water and ground attacks
-Outrage hits kingdra, flygon and lati@s, all of whom are important targets. Flygon because Gyara is generally a good check against it, and the others because they love so much to try and check gyarados (especially when they find out it's choiced). Instead, Gyara becomes a check against them (especially against Kingdras trying to set up on teammates). Intimidating and Outraging Kingdra to hell has made gyara especially useful to me.
-Obvious is the benefit of 1hko'ing all those damned dragons-- to hell with Salamence, Lati@s, Flygon and Kingdra. . . . and Dragonite. xD While all of these pokes have sets they can use to beat Gyara (generally involving boosted Draco Meteors), Gyara also can beat a number of these sets, particularly set up/physical ones.
On a note, with no leftovers, SR weak, Choiced (and therefore forced to switch in/out a lot) and no defensive ev investment, CB-Gyara is on a crash-course from the get go. Don't get too attached to it, abuse it like a red-haired step child and don't be afraid to throw it into the enemy lines of fire when necessary (intimidating the enemy as it falls).
Keeping CB-Gyara's suicidal mentality in mind, Outrage fits in nicely, letting Gyara achieve a lot in its limited time. In the early game, trying to predict is a bitch, and sometimes the raw force of a 120 base dragon attack is the best general answer. Sure Outrage locks you in, but even non-STAB, CB Outrage coming from 125 base attack is not easy to set up on (especially when no one sees it coming, therefore no one knows to throw a steel type out infront of it until outrage is practically over or gyara is practically dead from sand). As an additional deterrent, most steel types are not fond of trying to switch into Gyara's general onslaught of Waterfalls and Earthquakes.
Against Typical Leads:
If you hate weird mind games with choice'd taunt, you can always just earthquake it for massive damage. Waterfall can 2hko some of the less-bulky spreads.
The following are Gyarados' bitches:
Taunt + Intimidate turns these into set-up fodder for your teamates:
The only typical leads that could give you issues Zappy and Abomasnow, and they're still pretty rare as a lead. In that case at least, Zappy cannot set up SR. Just go to your t-wave absorber and have fun. Abomasnow also has no SR. If you really hate Abomasnow, just pack Stone Edge over Outrage.
Notable Team Mates:
No Lead can beat all other leads, so some important team-work is needed to cover the holes.
Yeah, fitting swampert and flygon on the same team can be difficult. >.>
It hits Empoleon, too. Too bad Shedinja and Surskit exist, otherwise there would be perfect coverage... I think. I like your dedication to it.Probably will get laughed off the stage or ignored (but that'd be good if others don't take this set seriously).
Anti-Platinum Lead Gyara
Jolly
@Choice Band
252 ATK 252 SPEED 4 HP
-Taunt
-Waterfall
-Earthquake
-Outrage
wall of text
Do you really care about a poke who won't even be good enough to make NU (surskit) and a pokemon who is 1hko'd by a switch in (shedinja killed by ttar/abom switch in)?
Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try switching around the EVs and nature and see where it goes.
Edit: All I could come up with was a much simpler EV spread for the Togekiss that makes near identical results. A calm nature with 252 HP, 252 Def, and 6 S.Def is pretty much the same thing as what I already made, only its defense is 1 point lower and its special defense is 2 points higher.
Anti-Lead Kaboooootops
Focus Sash/Lum Berry/Leftovers
252hp/120att/136def Impish Nature
-Waterfall
-Aqua Jet(AJ)
-Stealth Rock
-Rapid Spin
Has been working quite well for me as a lead, making most suicide leads practically useless. Basically this is meant to activate your opponent's lead's focus sash as they lay out stealth rock and rapid spin the next turn to finish off their remaining 1hp while clearing the rocks at the same time.
Totally makes lead Aeros useless. Waterfall the first turn, Rapid Spin the second if you have been Taunted on their first turn to clear the spikes and kill them.
For LeadApes, start with Waterfall. If they Taunt you, you kill them the next turn with AJ without them even setting up rocks. If it CC you, finish off the next turn with AJ as CC doesnt 1hko and they don't even get a chance to setup rocks. If they SR first turn, use Rapid Spin second turn to kill the Ape and get rid of rocks.
This Kabutops also survives Earth Power from Lead Heatrans and KOs with Waterfall and AJ.
One more thing about Kabutops as a lead is that is rather speedy compared to other bulky leads. Outspeeds Tyranitars to avoid the rare taunt, Metagross, Hippodon and other slow but bulky leads. Survives almost any lead pokemon's attack and gets SR up if the opponent's lead decides to attack. The only real problem i have faced is Roserade as i don't run Focus Sash and can't even get my rocks up.
I'm still messing around with the EVs and item and could get some help.
Focus Sash/Lum Berry/Leftovers
252hp/120att/136def Impish Nature
-Waterfall
-Aqua Jet(AJ)
-Stealth Rock
-Rapid Spin
Has been working quite well for me as a lead, making most suicide leads practically useless. Basically this is meant to activate your opponent's lead's focus sash as they lay out stealth rock and rapid spin the next turn to finish off their remaining 1hp while clearing the rocks at the same time.
Totally makes lead Aeros useless. Waterfall the first turn, Rapid Spin the second if you have been Taunted on their first turn to clear the spikes and kill them.
For LeadApes, start with Waterfall. If they Taunt you, you kill them the next turn with AJ without them even setting up rocks. If it CC you, finish off the next turn with AJ as CC doesnt 1hko and they don't even get a chance to setup rocks. If they SR first turn, use Rapid Spin second turn to kill the Ape and get rid of rocks.
This Kabutops also survives Earth Power from Lead Heatrans and KOs with Waterfall and AJ.
One more thing about Kabutops as a lead is that is rather speedy compared to other bulky leads. Outspeeds Tyranitars to avoid the rare taunt, Metagross, Hippodon and other slow but bulky leads. Survives almost any lead pokemon's attack and gets SR up if the opponent's lead decides to attack. The only real problem i have faced is Roserade as i don't run Focus Sash and can't even get my rocks up.
I'm still messing around with the EVs and item and could get some help.
Firstly, the item needs to be Focus Sash is this thing is actually supposed to work, but even then, the set has its drawbacks. The EVs seem OK, but you could shift a few between Att and Def
According to Shoddy Stats, Metagross is the most common OU lead.
Your Kabutop's Waterfall on Neutral nature 0 HP/0 Def Metagross - 29.23%-34.21% and +nature 252 HP/252 Def Metagross - 18.13%-21.42%. So generally, your main attack isn't doing much (4-5HKO with lefties).
Barring switches and assuming you have a Sash, a few things could happen now depending on who uses SR and who attacks when but generally, the possibilites are:
As you can see, none of the outcomes are really beneficial to you especially if your opponent has a spinner, but [2] gives you an edge damage-wise
ADVANTAGE - Metagross
Azelf, the second most common lead might be easier to deal with. Waterfall scrapes a 2HKO (54.86% avg), but you can't rely on AJ to deal enough damage. Sets running Thunderbolt would give you problems, though its not an OHKO. Taunt will prevent you from setting up SR, however - Kabutops can KO Azelf after it sets up and spin off the rocks later.
ADVANTAGE - Kabutops
Against things like Aero, you have the advantage since they are KO'ed by Waterfall + Aqua Jet if they taunt/SR and are still KO'ed if they EQ thanks to AJ. You successfully prevent them from setting up SR or KO them to spin it off later.
You fair decently against Nape. Infernape's Fake Out+CC with max Att and neutral nature on average will not KO (92.87%). However, more attack or near-to-max damage rolls could finish you. Aqua Jets does 54.84% on average, so you might be able to 2HKO. Nonetheless, quite a few Infernapes I've seen use Fake Out followed by U-Turn to a counter, which will render your Kabutop's strategy useless.
Lastly, another frequently used lead is Jirachi (4th). Due to its unpredictability, you'll have to know its set before Kabutops can do anything to it. Scarf variants could flinch you to death while you (un)successfully try to set up SR, scratch with Waterfall. You could end up being tricked with a Flame Orb/Choice item/Pokeball(?), so its not much good here.
Overall, Kabutops fares decently against 3/5 out of these leads, though requiring some prediction. With luck, it'll manage keeping off enemy rocks and setting up your own
Also, agreeing with MetaNite that its possibly more viable in UU
According to Shoddy Stats, Metagross is the most common OU lead.
Your Kabutop's Waterfall on Neutral nature 0 HP/0 Def Metagross - 29.23%-34.21% and +nature 252 HP/252 Def Metagross - 18.13%-21.42%. So generally, your main attack isn't doing much (4-5HKO with lefties).
Barring switches and assuming you have a Sash, a few things could happen now depending on who uses SR and who attacks when but generally, the possibilites are:
As you can see, none of the outcomes are really beneficial to you especially if your opponent has a spinner, but [2] gives you an edge damage-wise
ADVANTAGE - Metagross
Azelf, the second most common lead might be easier to deal with. Waterfall scrapes a 2HKO (54.86% avg), but you can't rely on AJ to deal enough damage. Sets running Thunderbolt would give you problems, though its not an OHKO. Taunt will prevent you from setting up SR, however - Kabutops can KO Azelf after it sets up and spin off the rocks later.
ADVANTAGE - Kabutops
Against things like Aero, you have the advantage since they are KO'ed by Waterfall + Aqua Jet if they taunt/SR and are still KO'ed if they EQ thanks to AJ. You successfully prevent them from setting up SR or KO them to spin it off later.
You fair decently against Nape. Infernape's Fake Out+CC with max Att and neutral nature on average will not KO (92.87%). However, more attack or near-to-max damage rolls could finish you. Aqua Jets does 54.84% on average, so you might be able to 2HKO. Nonetheless, quite a few Infernapes I've seen use Fake Out followed by U-Turn to a counter, which will render your Kabutop's strategy useless.
Lastly, another frequently used lead is Jirachi (4th). Due to its unpredictability, you'll have to know its set before Kabutops can do anything to it. Scarf variants could flinch you to death while you (un)successfully try to set up SR, scratch with Waterfall. You could end up being tricked with a Flame Orb/Choice item/Pokeball(?), so its not much good here.
Overall, Kabutops fares decently against 3/5 out of these leads, though requiring some prediction. With luck, it'll manage keeping off enemy rocks and setting up your own
Also, agreeing with MetaNite that its possibly more viable in UU
That Kabutops set looks great, and honestly, who cares about Metagross leads? All they do is end of Exploding anyways, so just send in your Rotom-A or Zapdos, using Substitute with the latter to avoid Explosion. I would just go Adamant Max HP / Max Atk to make use of its good attack stat. You should Stealth Rock, then switch out against Metagross leads anyways.
Lead Infernapes don't seem too common with all of the Occa Berry Metagross and Scarf Jirachi around. Lead Gross KOs w/EQ followed by BP, and Jirachi can Zen Headbutt while hoping for flinch(60% chance).
Lead Infernapes don't seem too common with all of the Occa Berry Metagross and Scarf Jirachi around. Lead Gross KOs w/EQ followed by BP, and Jirachi can Zen Headbutt while hoping for flinch(60% chance).
Zen Headbutt is only 20% flinch meaning it's 40% just to be clear but the point is the same... do most Infernapes fake out jirachi leads?
- Status