CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 3 - Secondary Type Discussion

I'm currently debating between Ground, Fire and Poison for secondary typings. When I look at the typing, I'm looking at an ability that can help dish out a lot of offensive damage or be a great defensive pokemon.

As Doug mentioned, Electric/Ground allows a lot of the top Pokemon to be KOed. However, Electric/Ground types lack very little coverage in moves. (not the two of them combined, mind you!) Electric types mainly get their STAB moves, Hidden Powah, the punches, and Grass Knot. Ground types mainly get Rock and Ground type moves. However, take these moves combined, and you can hit quite a bit of stuff. Ice Punch can come from the Electric typing to smack around Salamence. Focus Punch can also come in for a SubPunch set. The QuakeEdge combo can be abused, and it provides nearly unlimited coverage (only Skarm walls it IIRC). Electric/Ground can also make for a great mixed sweeper. T-Bolt/QuakeSlide/Grass knot anyone?

On the defensive side, Poison would help greatly for a defensive pokemon. Poison may add a 4x Ground and 2x Psychic weakness with Electric, but you also gain a Fighting resist and a Toxic Spikes absorber. Then again, we have one of those in Fidgit. The combination of Poison and Electric though allows for some great support holes to be filled. Thunder Wave and Toxic can cripple most teams, and can be easily put on an Electric/Poison type

An Electric/Fire type could also provide some great offensive coverage, since Electric and Fire complement each other well. Fire blows through the Grass-types that wall most Electric Pokemon, as well as Steelix. Electric decimates those Bulky waters that Fire-types might struggle with. Fire/Electric also allows for support, with moves like Will-O-Wisp, Sunny Day, Rain Dance (several electric types have that, no?) and Thunder Wave. Since an Electric/Fire Type can also function well in both Sun and Rain, there's a good shot that more weather teams will be used if Electric/Fire is used as the typing. This allows for an ability like Chlorophyll to be abused.

This probably just a lot of rambling ,since I'm fairly new to CAP. Feel free to criticize me in any way tat does not break the rules.

I'd rather deal with the Rock weakness of Bug/Electric than the 4x Ground weakness of Electric/Poison. However, with mono-Electric, we don't have to deal with either of those problems!

So the question for me that will determine my vote is, would we rather deal with the Ground resistance of mono-Electric, or the Rock resistance of Bug/Electric?

No Second Typing well not for this pokemon maybe for some other CaP Project a second typing that has electric/??? If there is another type than I'm hoping for a electric ground.

I'll clarify.

Although a lot of the other options presented here seem really viable, I like Electric/Grass for the following reasons:

1) It quarter-resists electric, resists grass, steel, and water, and is weak against bug, fire, ice, and poison (since electric's resistance cancel the grass weakness to flying.) I particularly like normalizing ground-type attacks (Earthquakes, Earth Power, and Spikes in particular,) which are extremely common in the Metagame (a big disadvantage to having a monotype Electric, or any electric in general.) Neutralizing the ground vulnerability seems crucial to ensuring it has any lasting power in the metagame.

2) Although there's some overlap on STAB (both types cover Water,) this would similarly allow them to cover some of the more unusual Water (like Ludicolo and Swampert.) The only major switch issue I can see is Salamence, Rotom, Heatran, and maybe a few others hoping to predict either a Lightningbolt or a Energy Ball (or whatever hypothetical grass and electric moves are on this set.) Even then either one will take some damage and face the alternative the next turn. Overall, the types provide good coverage on defenses, dragon and grass being the types that can resist both (this could easily be ammended by Hidden Power Ice.)

3) Grass offers some great support possibilties, like Leech Seed, Sleep Powder/Spore, Stun Spore, Synthesis, and Aromatherapy, which could lead to some good variations, depending on the Ability, Scores, etc. (perhaps seeing a mix of Mixed Sweeper, Support, Sub-Seed, and Stall Sets.)

4) Overall, I could see this offering a wide range of applications in terms of unused abilities. Skill Link along with Bullet Seed, for example, could be an interesting combination. Magic Guard...let's be frank, on any pokémon other than Clefable, Magic Guard would be downright awesome. Mold Breaker could help crack Volt Absorb and Motordrive, as well as when trying to invoke Statuses (from Insomnia, Immunity, Leaf Guard, or Limber, for example.) Static would obviously makes sense from a flavor standpoint (being Electric and all.) Chlorophyll would similarly if going for a Grass type, and Solar Power would be an awesome combination of both. There are likely more, but these are the options that stood out for me.

Anyway, that's why I'm going to eventually vote for Grass for the secondary typing poll (when the poll post is up, of course, :D.) I hope I convinced you too.

Electric/Ground may hit a lot, but it really doesn't need Ground typing to have Ground moves. Earthquake is good even without STAB. That's the primary reason I'm against fire; CAP8 can have fire moves without the nasty SR weakness. Using the same logic, we can hit those same threats without ruining our chance to net resistances, which is a huge part of what typing is about. We can have offensive combinations without STAB; look at all of those BoltBeamers.

I see a lot going for the typing Electric/Water.
It has a lot of potential in both offensive and defensive rolls. Granting it two weakness Ground and Grass and only Grass and Dragon resist it. However no dragon is resistant to this due to secondary typing. Plus most waters carry ice moves taking care of the grass typing. In OU/BL only Breloom, Celebi, and Abomasnow resist it. I also like the idea of mono-Electric which gives a good, solid typing.

However no dragon is resistant to this due to secondary typing.

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Don't forget about Latias. I don't see anything particularly bad with Electric/Water as of this moment, I just feel there's something better out there (what I do not know yet).

EDIT: Actually Water/Electric is lookin' pretty solid.

May I suggest you all to consider Electric/Ice. It has 4 weaknesses (Rock, Ground, Fire and Fighting) but offensively, it has STAB BOLT-BEAM COMBO. Despite the Stealth Rock weakness, there is no 4x weaknesses, which is a definite plus for it defensively. Bolt-Beam is often applauded for its wide range of uses and terrific results that it can achieve, therefore, this pair of typings go extremely well together for the full-frontal power. As for defense, it is not horrible, as some Pokemon like Celebi has 7 weaknesses including a 4x weakness and is still in OU.

We have no Pokemon in today's game where it can use both STABs of Electric and Ice moves, and this Pokemon may be the first and only for now. If the community would like to see it to be more defensively, then they can decide on a more defensive spread and ability, but that's nothing to be worried in this discussion.

1059860 said:

May I suggest you all to consider Electric/Ice. It has 4 weaknesses (Rock, Ground, Fire and Fighting) but offensively, it has STAB BOLT-BEAM COMBO. Despite the Stealth Rock weakness, there is no 4x weaknesses, which is a definite plus for it defensively. Bolt-Beam is often applauded for its wide range of uses and terrific results that it can achieve, therefore, this pair of typings go extremely well together for the full-frontal power. As for defense, it is not horrible, as some Pokemon like Celebi has 7 weaknesses including a 4x weakness and is still in OU.

We have no Pokemon in today's game where it can use both STABs of Electric and Ice moves, and this Pokemon may be the first and only for now. If the community would like to see it to be more defensively, then they can decide on a more defensive spread and ability, but that's nothing to be worried in this discussion.

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I would really want to go for something like Electric/Dragon over Electric/Ice; same effect (nothing in OU resists it and only three weaknesses, none of which are double), but without the Stealth Rock weakness.

Magnezone resists it.

I would really want to go for something like Electric/Dragon over Electric/Ice; same effect (nothing in OU resists it

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It's been stated several times: Magnezone. But Naxte is right in regards to Dual STAB coverage; Dragon isn't mauled by Stealth Rock nor does it bring in a Fighting weakness (which is a very common type). It's not right to compare it to Celebi because Celebi also has some fantastic resists (Ground & Fighting which are the prominent ones), while Electric/Ice has few (Ice, Flying, Electric?).

Boltbeam is overrated.

Bolt Beam has fallen in popularity do to the influx of OU steel types in the metagame. Having STAB still doesnt help against Metagross, Jirachi, Magnezone or Heatran, some of the most prominant threats.

I put my support behind Electric-Bug. I dislike the possibility of the 4x Ground weakness the comes with Electric-Poison. While some pokemon, namely Heatran, can work well even with the ground weakness, I would prefer to have Bug.

1059860 said:

but offensively, it has STAB BOLT-BEAM COMBO.

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We're not trying to create an overpowered new Garchomp or something. It has to be balanced... We're not looking for the strongest possible thing we can think of.

As far as I recall.

Well, Im sort of new so not super sure, but I'd say:

Bug- Seems to have a solid build with electric and also, the category being uderrated ability fits well with the fact that bug is a rare type.

Dragon- Moreso for a solid attacker (dragon has always seemed like a strong type to me) It also seems to trump things like ice which take stealthrock damage terribly.

Grass- mostly because I'm in awe at skymin, but also because there are many lack luster grass types. I feel that electric and grass is a unique combination that could be very decent in the metagame

I think that knowing the ability might have helped though, because it could have a type fitting the ability.

Anyway, PLEASE correct me if I said something stupid, Im really new as I said

Veedrock said:

It's been stated several times: Magnezone. But Naxte is right in regards to Dual STAB coverage; Dragon isn't mauled by Stealth Rock nor does it bring in a Fighting weakness (which is a very common type). It's not right to compare it to Celebi because Celebi also has some fantastic resists (Ground & Fighting which are the prominent ones), while Electric/Ice has few (Ice, Flying, Electric?).

Boltbeam is overrated.

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Ah yeah, forgot about Magnezone. But since it also resists BoltBeam, it doesn't really make much of a difference.

Right now I think Water would be the best typing for CAP8.

The Case For Water:

Water offers a nice resist to Ice moves, along with being SE on Ground an Rock types. Water types always come with Ice Moves (Yes, I checked... ALL fully evolved water types learn Ice Beam), which would give CAP8 excellent coverage. Electric/Ice/Water is only resisted by nothing barring Shedinja. Electric/Water by itself is resisted by both Dragon and Grass, but the Dragon resistance is irrelevant, as all non uber Dragons minus Latias have a secondary typing of either Water, Ground, or Flying, all weak to the Water/Electric combo. This may not seem impressive, but if you put the fact that all FE Waters have Ice Beam... That leaves Grass types, which are fairly uncommon in OU.

Defesively Water/Grass is weak to only Grass and Ground. Pokemon gaining STAB on Ground will run at the sight of Water moves, or possibly Ice. In fact, all OU grounds are weak to Water moves, with the exception of Swampert and Flygon. For those that don't use it for STAB such as Salamence or Gyarados, can generally not take repeated Electric, Water, or Ice type moves, and in many cases, can't take any at all. It also resists common attacks such as Ice and Fire, and also has an Impressive double resist against Bullet Punch, which, with Scizor's Technician has a BP of 22.5.

As for other types

Dragon: Actually, I don't oppose this because its overpowering, but rather the fact that Ice, Dragon, and Ground Weaknesses are rather unattractive. It has great neutral coverage, but Dragon hits only one type Super Effectively.

Grass: The Ground neutrality it offers is nice, but it has poor coverage, and the most important thing it hits (Water) is already killed by Electric. Also, it brings an Ice and Fire Weakness, which is not good at all.

Poison: A fighting resist is great. But if i really wanted a fight resist, i would choose flying, which also comes with a Ground immunity instead of a 4x weakness. Poison, like Dragon offers poor SE coverage, and is resisted by everthing.

Bug: Probably the next best option, aside from the Rock weak, it is extremely solid defesivley, it also carries a decent STAB, that has good coverage with Electric.

Just to set the record straight, far too many of you don't seem to understand that this is a Discussion thread, and not a voting thread. It's great if you support one type over another, but frankly, we aren't really interested unless you back it up with some reasoning.

EDIT: Apparently Doug beat me to it.

Electric / Rock arguments won me over.

I think the STAB attacks and useful resistances make it very potent.
And its weaknesses keep it from being too strong.

I like that.

Offensive or defensive, I think it should have grass as it's secondary type. There just aren't enough grass pokemon around, and I like the concept of an electric/grass. It has interesting resistances and pretty good coverage. Also, it seems like a good type to go with the original concept decided.

hydrolphin said:

Poison: A fighting resist is great. But if i really wanted a fight resist, i would choose flying, which also comes with a Ground immunity instead of a 4x weakness. Poison, like Dragon offers poor SE coverage, and is resisted by everthing.

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If you had Flying instead, you'd lose many other useful resistances and then gain a weakness to SR, as well as a weakness to Ice. To me, Poison is better.

No Secondary Type doesn't seem to be getting much love, so I'm going to make a case for it here:

First of all, I don't really like Grass, or Bug as secondary typings. They're not particularly helpful to Electric offensively, so I must assume that they serve a primarily defensive function. But then, both typings open CAP 8 up to some pretty mean weaknesses - Rock in particular for Bug - for what? EQ neutrality? Defensively, that tradeoff sounds horrible. Offensively, the tradeoff doesn't achieve for us anything particularly spectacular. Neither Bug nor Grass offers near enough compensation for the newly-exposed weakness to such common typings.

Dragon's tradeoffs are a bit better, but there's other things in the bargain - too much of a good thing, in my opinion. Personally, the possibilities involved with free-rein Dragon/Electric typing might seem tempting to abuse for some people. I'm not sure if we'll be able to rein this thing in if we need to... or otherwise keep it on too tight a leash. Again, the "Shotgun, not Sniper Rifle" principle of CAP comes into play here. Also, I feel that it leans a lot towards offense.

Poison, I might be willing to settle with, but not really with a smile on my face. It avoids the horrible pitfalls that ruin the other leaning-defense typing, but its benefits aren't particularly suited well for particular defense or particular offense in my opinion. Sort of like a jack-of-all-trades scenario. Poison provides a few nice resistances for little cost, but they don't really seem good enough to capitalize on them defensively - not to mention the massive ground weakness going against it. To look at it - at least Heatran brought some more resistances and generally better offensive STAB to the table. Speaking of, Poison is just awful offensively, and really doesn't contribute a lot of note in that direction. It's workable, it'll just have a lot of trouble being suitably molded in any particular direction, so to speak.

Water, I could settle with also. It doesn't give up too much in weaknesses, and adds a few nice resistances to the table. It's also pretty usable offensively, and so I think it could work. I'd be okay with Water.

But most of my love is currently going to No Secondary Typing. It leans in no particular direction, but could easily move itself there. It features relatively few resistances, but by comparison, only one weakness. And the lack of resistances can easily be made up for with a strong stat spread and/or movepool to back it up. It generally keeps a much more open game than most of the other possible typing combinations. We chose Electric for its overall diversity - let's keep it that way. :D

benthenoob said:

Electric / Rock arguments won me over.

I think the STAB attacks and useful resistances make it very potent.
And its weaknesses keep it from being too strong.

I like that.

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Not seeing the appeal of Rock, unless I'm missing something here:

Naxte said:

Not sure I like Rock either. It's adding on several weaknesses (water, grass, fighting), just to hit Fire and Ice for super-effective (and Bug, but the OU bug types, Scizor and Forretress are hit neutral by both Electric and Rock, due to their other type, so bug isn't relevant) basically. However, the only Fire and Ice types really found commonly in Standard are Heatran, Pyroak, Mamoswine, Syclant and Weavile. However, due to their secondary typings, Heatran and Mamoswine are both neutral to rock.

That leaves Weavile, Syclant and Pyroak. Weavile is on the frail side, so it doesn't really need STAB rock to be taken care of; even something like Volt Tackle or Thunderbolt should leave a good dent in it, ignoring other options we could give it, such as Close Combat (plus, there's also how on the reverse side of things, if you're not faster than it, it will be able to leave a big dent in you regadless). Similar applies to Syclant, leaving Pyroak. But even negating that and assuming it wouldn't be able to touch Syclant and Weavile at all otherwise, that means you're adding on several weaknesses just to make it handle three Pokemon (Syclant, Pyroak, and Weavile) more easily, and I'm not sure if that's a fair trade off.

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I would also like to add that electric/dragon would end up with a really cool sprite... (which is my main reason in participating in CAP anyways, for the art. I dont like shoddy)

Artwork has no impact on competitive performance and as such it should not even be considered when deciding on such things. It's like the argument against Rock Head ability because "the artwork would be messed up." If you have no interest in the competitive aspect of CAP then you probably should not be involved in the decisions that really shape the entire project. I realize nothing is stopping you but it isn't the right reason to vote for something (it's like voting for Obama because he's black >_>).
(you have no idea how hard it was to keep this civil lol)

Mag said:

Dragon's tradeoffs are a bit better, but there's other things in the bargain - too much of a good thing, in my opinion. Personally, the possibilities involved with free-rein Dragon/Electric typing might seem tempting to abuse for some people. I'm not sure if we'll be able to rein this thing in if we need to... or otherwise keep it on too tight a leash. Again, the "Shotgun, not Sniper Rifle" principle of CAP comes into play here. Also, I feel that it leans a lot towards offense.

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I want to put extra emphasis on this, namely the latter half of it, because Mag knows what he's talking about.


At this moment, Water is looking to be the best second ability. It only adds one weakness and adds a plethora resistances (water is a wonder typing). Offensively, Water STAB hits Ground types that think they can walk over CAP8, and only Latias and Celebi really resist this combination. All in all it's a good package.

I've seen many people disagree with the Electric/Poison because of it's 4x weakness to Ground-type attacks, but why would you? Almost every team has a way of dealing with Ground moves, when it comes to Levitators to Flyers, it's very easy to switch into something that can resist it. Heatran for example has a 4x Ground weakness but is still working extremely well in the current metagame. There are ways of working around weaknesses. Plus, Poison can absorb Toxic Spikes and only has two weaknesses coupled with Electric (Psychic, Ground).