CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 3 - Secondary Type Discussion

[m190049]

"We've" been trying to avoid a Ground weakness, have "we"? Who is this "We"? Many people in this thread support the CAP8 being half Poison. Clearly, these people do not care about a Ground weakness all that much.

I've seen a lot of people purposely look down on Poison because of of the 4x Ground weakness, and other types that also suffer the Ground Weakness. Ground is the most prominent offensive type in OU (or so I've seen other People say. Can't vertify this myself). And a lot of use seem to not want a weakness to it.

No, how is Dragon a "Special" type?

...What? I never said that.

Um, I DID acknowledge the fact it is ground weak? ?_?
And I don't think we are trying to avoid it, as Elec/Poison is a prime contender here.

Again, I am pretty sure I acknowledge both of these, and am fully aware of these weaknesses.

Well "completely ignoring" was a bit of a stretch, although you did seem to graze over it.

How is coverage resisted by only one common OU moot?

Because really one of it's types is Special Based and one of it's types is Physical based. Unless it has great Attack and Sp. Atk, it's probably mostly going to go one way moreso than the other, hindering it's supposed amazing coverage.

Nice try with hiding the white text. Please don't bring up abilities. It was almost obvious in the last paragraph before i saw the white text.

Closest thing I have to a strikeout.

 

[Deck Knight]

Mag has been a part of CAP for a long time. Looking at your month long join date, you're really saying you have better understanding than he does?

User Veedrock

Veedrock's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Where the gloom hangs heavily, and the stars never shine
Posts: 915

Jeez you hang around for 6 months and all of a sudden you're boy king.

Join date has nothing to do with it, Joat could have been lurking since Syclant, and it's not relevant anyway. We have had deplorable suggestions from people who have been through 4 CAPs. You aren't exactly in a position to discuss pillars of wisdom and experience, either.

I too think we're ready for a Dragon CAP without going overboard. Last CAP we did Steel/Ghost and came out with a non-broken product. CAP has progressed to the point we can fete out all the crap. You can still aim a shotgun, the first few CAPS were essentially hand grenades.

Difficulty shouldn't be a point of contention. We have a handle on this stuff.

Because really one of it's types is Special Based and one of it's types is Physical based. Unless it has great Attack and Sp. Atk, it's probably mostly going to go one way moreso than the other, hindering it's supposed amazing coverage.

Volt Tackle
BP: 120
PP: 15
Acc: 100%
Category: Physical
Effect: 1/8th recoil

Thunder
BP: 120
PP: 10
Acc: 70%
Category: Special
Effect: 30% para, 100% acc in rain.

Thunderbolt
BP: 95
PP: 15
Acc: 100%
Category: Special
Efect: 10% para

ThunderPunch
BP: 75
PP: 20
Acc: 100%
Category: Physical
Effect: 10% para

Draco Meteor
BP: 140
PP: 10
Acc: 90%
Category: Special
Effect: Lowers SA by 2 stages after hit.

Outrage:
BP: 120
PP: 20
Acc: 100%
Category: Physical
Effect: Locks user into attack for 2-3 turns

Dragon Pulse:
BP: 90
PP: 20
Acc: 100%
Category: Special
Effect: None

Dragon Claw:
BP: 80
PP: 20
Acc: 100%
Effect: None

I see your point... yes, the bias is clear... Never mind that we could just invent a move to fill in any power/acc gap problems.

 

[Gooey Kablooie]

Not to defend or blame anyone here, but since when does "account activity" and post count determine validity of opinion? I understand Magmortified's experience, and I think everyone else does too. He is also very concise in his opinions, but I don't think that makes anyone elses opinion less than his. Or am I wrong? I mean more people would obviously listen to him over me, but I still have a different opinion....

 

[billymills]

What exactly does Electric/Poison have going for it? It adds onto electric's only weakness, and it adds a psychic weakness. Poison is a terrible attacking type, being supereffective on a whole 1 type (Grass isn't huge in OU anyway).

Electric/Bug also has a huge rock weakness. If you think earthquake being neutral is big, the added difference from Stone Edges, SR switch-ins will easily cover the difference. Without Megahorn this isn't going anything to Tyranitar anytime soon. Also, were there any abilities that are actually recommended with this typeset, or do you prefer them because they sound cool. (Mag actually had this pretty well summed up)


I like Electric/Rock because it works well with Reckless and Hustle (and Rock Head, but that may be going too far). If that's too powerful, remember that hippowdon completely walls this. It's in no way too powerful.

 

[m190049]

Electric/Bug also has a huge rock weakness. If you think earthquake being neutral is big, the added difference from Stone Edges, SR switch-ins will easily cover the difference. Without Megahorn this isn't going anything to Tyranitar anytime soon. Also, were there any abilities that are actually recommended with this typeset, or do you prefer them because they sound cool. (Mag actually had this pretty well summed up)

Huge? It's just 2x. In that case Electric/Dragon has a huge Ground, huge Ice, and huge Dragon weakness.

I guess if we're starting to talk abilities, Magic Guard will be an easy immunity to Stealth Rock and Sandstorm, and fits the theme perfectly.

 

[Veedrock]

I assume you talk to me veedrock. I understand he has been here a long time, but to be fair I have been on the CAP server longer than I have on smogon, and lurking longer before that, and I don't ever recall saying I know more; if anything it was more a playful post with him.

CAP server =/= CAP process. In no way did I imply that you don't know anything about CAP, but that Mag knows a lot better than you would (silly of me to assume that, right?). There is no reason for you OR Deck Knight to bring my longevity into this, as it is completely irrelevant.

 

[Gooey Kablooie]

One huge problem I see in this though is that it's very hard to see where the real weaknesses of a chosen typing are because there are many abilities that could cover any of the chosen types weaknesses or boost its strengths.

Besides, the loose argument saying typing defines ability is pointless. Someone could come up with an electric pokemon with any secondary typing (or no secondary typing) and the pokemon could convincingly have "insert underused ability here" as it's ability and could also be useful with it.

 

[Not Scicky]

Electric Dragon provides so much more defensively then elec/bug does =/

Ignore the 2x ground weakness that's still there, why are people so intent on getting rid of electrics one weakness? Dragon is much better defensively. Rock is a very important type and it sucks to be weak to it.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Why do we talk more about which defensive typings is better and such than offensive typings? I can see why Stall is so damn big with everyone, everyone has a defensive mindset. I guess that's the reason why Anti-Stall was never a big hit on the concept board.

I'm torn towards Electric/Ground, Electric/Dragon, and Electric/Poison. All three seem like promising and each have their advantages and disadvantages, both offensive and defensive.

I like to mention that Mag's countless comments about Electric/Dragon being a bad choice for CAP8 kinda saddens me really. It's not because he's implying it's an horrible typing(it's not that terrible), but the fact he's implying that CAP will never be able to make a balance dragon type Pokemon. Add to the fact people seem to dislike Dragon types and I have this feeling that one day CAP will ban Dragon type from the typing poll(s) for good. Dragons always get the short end of the stick when it comes to popularity it seems.

 

[Gooey Kablooie]

I like to mention that Mag's countless comments about Electric/Dragon being a bad choice for CAP8 kinda saddens me really. It's not because he's implying it's an horrible typing(it's not that terrible), but the fact he's implying that CAP will never be able to make a balance dragon type Pokemon. Add to the fact people seem to dislike Dragon types and I have this feeling that one day CAP will ban Dragon type from the typing poll(s) for good. Dragons always get the short end of the stick when it comes to popularity it seems.

That's very true, but I'm still plain scared of it. Dragons are soooooo popular as it is, and people really seem to like going for the underdog. Actually, that seems like what CAP 8 is all about and I am in total support of it. Again, I'm just worried about the inevitability of wasting more than regular time on tuning down an Electric/Dragon. Also, must say Electric/Ground has me thinking...

 

[Naxte]

I like Electric/Rock because it works well with Reckless and Hustle (and Rock Head, but that may be going too far). If that's too powerful, remember that hippowdon completely walls this. It's in no way too powerful.

We can give it such abilities regardless. It does have Head Smash, but the accuracy is a bit shaky, especially with Hustle.

Beyond that, it doesn't seem to interesting to me:

Not sure I like Rock either. It's adding on several weaknesses (water, grass, fighting), just to hit Fire and Ice for super-effective (and Bug, but the OU bug types, Scizor and Forretress are hit neutral by both Electric and Rock, due to their other type, so bug isn't relevant, along with Flying, since that's covered by Electric already) basically. However, the only Fire and Ice types really found commonly in Standard are Heatran, Pyroak, Mamoswine, Syclant and Weavile. However, due to their secondary typings, Heatran and Mamoswine are both neutral to rock.

That leaves Weavile, Syclant and Pyroak. Weavile is on the frail side, so it doesn't really need STAB rock to be taken care of; even something like Volt Tackle or Thunderbolt should leave a good dent in it, ignoring other options we could give it, such as Close Combat (plus, there's also how on the reverse side of things, if you're not faster than it, it will be able to leave a big dent in you regadless). Similar applies to Syclant, leaving Pyroak. But even negating that and assuming it wouldn't be able to touch Syclant and Weavile at all otherwise, that means you're adding on several weaknesses just to make it handle three Pokemon (Syclant, Pyroak, and Weavile) more easily, and I'm not sure if that's a fair trade off.

 

[m190049]

Electric Dragon provides so much more defensively then elec/bug does =/

Who says our Pokemon will even be defensive.
I see Electric/Bug is actually a bit more offensive.
It can actually have amazing coverage with a good moveset.
Also:

Bug STAB is super effective versus these OU (BL) threats:
Abomasnow
Alakazam
Azelf
Celebi
Cresselia
Gallade
Latias
Starmie
Tyranitar
Weavile

I like to mention that Mag's countless comments about Electric/Dragon being a bad choice for CAP8 kinda saddens me really. It's not because he's implying it's an horrible typing(it's not that terrible), but the fact he's implying that CAP will never be able to make a balance dragon type Pokemon. Add to the fact people seem to dislike Dragon types and I have this feeling that one day CAP will ban Dragon type from the typing poll(s) for good. Dragons always get the short end of the stick when it comes to popularity it seems.

It's just that Electric/Dragon can be super-amazing both offensively and defensively very easily. It's STAB is resisted by all but one OU Pokemon, and if it gets a Fighting, Fire, or especially Ground move, it'd be a HUGE thread to behold.
Defensively, it can be just as great. Those are the main worries, really. This Pokemon has the typing to potentially become broken.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

Magmortified is a big proponent of the "blunt axe" theory. While this theory may have been true at one time, I am of the opinion that we'll never learn if we don't try. We have a well-defined and time-tested process and a wayyyyy better TL than we had for CAP7. Just kidding Mag :D

I see no reason why we can't try Electric/Dragon at last.

Also, Veedrock, join date really doesn't have much to do with anything. I know Joat; he's a good CAP user. Obviously he doesn't get the kind of respect that Mag/Doug/Tennisace/Plus/Beej/EM/etc. get, but then, neither do you or I.

...What? I never said that.

That was obviously a typo °__° I've changed it to Physical, like I obviously meant. The fact is, no type has been "Physical" or "Special" since R/S/E. In the new generation, both type are physical and special, and if you argue that there aren't any "good" moves of one type, then CAP can just invent that move.

 

[m190049]

and if you argue that there aren't any "good" moves of one type, then CAP can just invent that move.

I guess that's always true.
Although the same factor can be used to support the other side as well.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

What, you could make a type Physical or Special by adding a move to it?

I have no idea what you're getting at.

 

[billymills]

Huge? It's just 2x. In that case Electric/Dragon has a huge Ground, huge Ice, and huge Dragon weakness.

I guess if we're starting to talk abilities, Magic Guard will be an easy immunity to Stealth Rock and Sandstorm, and fits the theme perfectly.

Huge in that it's important, not the multiplier itself. Rock is a common attacking type, and SR makes it even more important.

x2 Ice is not usually important, as most Ice attacks are unstabbed and unboosted. You wouldn't be switching into Dragon moves anyway, so that's not really important either. Ground is big, but when the alternative is rock, it becomes manageable.

I don't think anyone in their right mind is asking for Magic Guard.

We can give it such abilities regardless. It does have Head Smash, but the accuracy is a bit shaky, especially with Hustle.

Beyond that, it doesn't seem to interesting to me:

There's reasoning behind giving those abilities to rock, mainly to boost power on the extremely powerful moves at our disposal. I suppose grass/flying would work, but I prefer rock.

 

[Sc4rfCh0mp]

Why are we all arguing the same points over and over again? If you guys really need to know why, read the other posts. If you disagree, state so and why. This is getting pretty annoying.

One thing I'd like to throw in is a small compromise. A lot of people don't want the broken power of Electric/Dragon, and don't want a 4x Ground weakness or a SR weak. This rules out Steel, Flying, Rock, Fire, Dragon, Ice, and Bug as secondary typings. nevertheless, we can still make a good pokemon out of this even without all of these promising typings.

If we want to make sure that CAP8 isn't overly broken, we need to make it so that it can be walled by some threats, and we don't want even more steel overcentralization. A good way to solve this and keep CAP8 to fulfill its concept of a neglected ability is to find ways to neutralize things that can hinder it, epsecially with the said ability. (For example, with Magic Guard, we could use a Bug typing because Magic Guard blocks SR. we can then proceed to build a strong sweeper or supporter). I think we should focus more on this instead of looking at "which typing will make CAP8 top offense or defense?" This isn't the concept we are attempting to build here.

This doesn't mean that we post what typings are good with x ability. this means we look at a pokemon that can abuse the majority of the abilities that are allowed based off of its typing.

Therefore, I propose that all of us drop the subject of offense vs. defense, and look at abilities, and how all of the typings (including the "broken ones") affect each ability. Then, identify the typing you find works best with the most abilities, and discuss it here. This will help achieve the concept of CAP8, and is a good compromise.

 

[m190049]

What, you could make a type Physical or Special by adding a move to it?

I have no idea what you're getting at.

I mean really, to add a good move to any type combination we may end up getting.
...Yeah, it was kind of a pointless post before.

I don't think anyone in their right mind is asking for Magic Guard.

Really? Plenty of people were in the other thread.

Why are we all arguing the same points over and over again? If you guys really need to know why, read the other posts. If you disagree, state so and why. This is getting pretty annoying.

One thing I'd like to throw in is a small compromise. A lot of people don't want the broken power of Electric/Dragon, and don't want a 4x Ground weakness or a SR weak. This rules out Steel, Flying, Rock, Fire, Dragon, Ice, and Bug as secondary typings. nevertheless, we can still make a good pokemon out of this even without all of these promising typings.

If we want to make sure that CAP8 isn't overly broken, we need to make it so that it can be walled by some threats, and we don't want even more steel overcentralization. A good way to solve this and keep CAP8 to fulfill its concept of a neglected ability is to find ways to neutralize things that can hinder it, epsecially with the said ability. (For example, with Magic Guard, we could use a Bug typing because Magic Guard blocks SR. we can then proceed to build a strong sweeper or supporter). I think we should focus more on this instead of looking at "which typing will make CAP8 top offense or defense?" This isn't the concept we are attempting to build here.

This doesn't mean that we post what typings are good with x ability. this means we look at a pokemon that can abuse the majority of the abilities that are allowed based off of its typing.

Therefore, I propose that all of us drop the subject of offense vs. defense, and look at abilities, and how all of the typings (including the "broken ones") affect each ability. Then, identify the typing you find works best with the most abilities, and discuss it here. This will help achieve the concept of CAP8, and is a good compromise.

One thing I haven't heard much is a good Ability to go with a Electric/Dragon (since we really seem to be talking about how the type and ability compliment each other now. The theme of this project kind of demands it).
Any suggestions?

 

[Sc4rfCh0mp]

One thing I haven't heard much is a good Ability to go with a Electric/Dragon (since we really seem to be talking about how the type and ability compliment each other now. The theme of this project kind of demands it).
Any suggestions?

Since a Dragon-type is mainly known for being offensive, an ability that can hurt Pokemon that touch it works well, minus the fact that it does nothing to Special attackers. I think that Static, Rough Skin, or Effect Spore could help out. However, this leaves the Electric-Dragon type susceptible to special attackers, which means its not necessarily broken, unless we give it a very impressive speed stat.

 

[Veedrock]

You guys are talking like the typing has been decided. You should save ability discussion until later, especially considering that cyberzero said to keep abilities out of this thread and that you can't use abilities as your reasoning behind rallying a certain typing.

 

[m190049]

I think that Static, Rough Skin, or Effect Spore could help out.

I've been thinking... The "chance" abilities, like Static and Effect Spore. There's only a chance the ability will even do a thing.
It seems rather gimmicky to me (somewhat).

You guys are talking like the typing has been decided. You should save ability discussion until later.

I kind skimmed through everything... Dragon is clearly in the lead (if this was a poll).
Not as much a bias as Electric on the first poll, but it seems most popular.
Just rolling with what I think is going to happen.
I really wanted Electric/Bug, but I'm not a sore loser or anything.
I kind of think Dragon's going to end up winning in my head...
So, just rolling with it.




An Electric/Bug will almost Magic Guard. Best suited, in every way.
Removes Stealth Rock, immune to Sandstorm, etc., etc.
Hm... What would Electric/Poison get? That seems rather interesting as well...

 

[Sc4rfCh0mp]

You guys are talking like the typing has been decided. You should save ability discussion until later, especially considering that cyberzero said to keep abilities out of this thread and that you can't use abilities as your reasoning behind rallying a certain typing.

I'll do that. It is pretty difficult though, considering that what type we choose pretty much chooses the ability for practically everyone here. That's why 'm not focusing on any specific ability, just types that can warp around the majority of the abilities allowed.

 

[ShayminSOcute]

Electric poison can look very cool...and you could give it magnet rise :o

 

[hsb39]

I'm leaning towards Poison, mainly due to EM's post on it, and Ground due to DJD's.

I think that one of the biggest points for Poison is that many of its resistances are not often coupled with its weaknesses, barring Metagross, Bronzong, Jirachi and Forretress. Also, when it comes to Ground, I wonder whether it is leaning too much towards certainly being an offensive Pokemon, it intrigues me more than Poison, but Poison (I think) gives a wider spectrum of choice.

When it comes to Dragon, I don't think that the concept is the best for it (are we allowed to discuss that? I'm not naming abilities, just saying that Dragon could do better with more direction).

 

[Veedrock]

Ok, I've decided on Water. It offers the most benefits with minor cutbacks. Reasons why you should support water:

~Water only adds one more weakness: Grass. Grass is there, but it isn't everywhere. And if CAP8 is light, the primary Grass attack of the game will do little to nothing, nullifying the weakness almost entirely. Two weaknesses total (the other being Ground), which is very good.

~Water has a plethora of useful resists that it will add: Ice, Fire, Steel (x4), and Water. Resistances are vital for almost any Pokemon and Water is fantastic defensive typing to be paired with.

~On the offensive, Water hits Ground super effectively which would otherwise stop the Electric assault. The combo of Water/Electric is only resisted by Latias and Celebi, which are both handled via Ice moves. Fantastic coverage overall, with high powered STAB moves to back it up (Surf/Thunderbolt, Thunder/Hydro Pump).


Neutral to Stealth Rock, great resists, very few weaknesses, secondary STAB isn't useless (quite the opposite). There are a multitude of ways this typing could go in terms of movepool, stat bias, and the kicker, ability. A very good choice overall.