CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 3 - Secondary Type Discussion

[familyguyman]

Hello all. I am very interested in this project so, even though I have less experience, I'd still like to try and contribute.

Since the theme of this pokemon is neglected abilities, upon looking at what some of those abilities are; most are more defensive with some being hard to activate but great when they are triggered. The rest are pokemon specific. Therefore, I think the typing should reflect that. Defensive with bite if the opponent plays it wrong. Electric/Fighting meets that criteria.

Sporting resists to Rock, Steel, Dark, Bug, Electric (only weak to Ground and Psychic). With main STAB resistors being Salamence, Dragonite, Zapdos, Gliscor, Rotom and Latias. The resists to Tyranitar and Scizor STABs, this typing can shut down some of the bigger threats by combining Electrics great defensive typing with Fightings great offensive typing. This will also compliment many of the currently neglected abilities. Being able to resist Pursuit and Stealth Rock helps for any pokemon, especially one capable of offense and defense as switches will be useful to do in the clutch.

Just a thought for your consideration (thought judging by how this place runs, you've all thought about it already).

Cheers.

 

[Veedrock]

Dark and Electric is fairly balanced defensively as it is weak to two common types (Ground and Fighting) but resists five and is immune to one. It's not weak to Pursuit or Stealth Rock, so no issues with switching. It's not unbalanced or over centralizing because of weaknesses to common types.

While you can't assess how "centralizing" it'll be based on typing (movepool and stats are the seller, look at Celebi), your argument is still rather poor. Tyranitar is weak to Ground and Fighting (x4) as well (steel too, which is somewhat common), and it's still a force to be reckoned with that shapes the metagame. I really don't understand what you're getting at.

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

If you're banking on a specific ability to make a typing decent, you're looking at this backwards. It'll suck once we have that typing and then Magic Guard isn't chosen.

I know, and I never said I was banking on Magic Guard (I was actually hoping for Quick Feet for reasons stated in my post on the Concept Assessment, but that's beside the point). Besides, did I not say we can easily employ Fidgit as a Rapid Spinner? (or anyone else for that matter?)

 

[Ezekiel]

((As an aside...does anyone else feel like this discussion is playing out similar to the 2008 Presidential primaries? A whole slew of candidates on both sides of the spectrum with reasons to vote for each...))

Personally, I think the Electric/Dragon combo sounds great. Admittedly, it doesn't do anything to eliminate the weaknesses of either typing, but perhaps that can be considered part of the "don't make CAP8 uber" idea. At the same time, giving it a 4x Ground weakness--or any of the other patterns we've seen here--are good ways to prevent CAP8 from breaking everything. (I also think that the simple fact that so many people have voiced concern about potential game-breaking with this type is a good sign, but I'm inclined to have too much faith in the positive rather than too little.) There are positives and negatives for pretty much any typing, I just feel that Electric/Dragon has an excellent, reasonable blend of both good things and bad things.

As for the arguments that the typing doesn't have to be unused in the official game, I can see both sides of the issue. On the one hand, Electric is such an under-used and under-mixed type--I believe roughly 3/4 of all Electric types have no secondary typing. On top of that, the seven Electric pokémon that -do- have another type only cover 4 of the remaining 16 types. On the other hand, perhaps CAP8's type could be 'neglected' just like its ability: sure, Electric/Water is already covered by Lanturn, but Lanturn is solidly stuck in the UU tier for other reasons.

But that's just my two bits. I'm a newcomer here (I've been reading and watching since pre-Arghonaut, finally decided to join up and post ^__^) so anything I say should probably be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[ParadOxymoron]

When people were deciding on Fidgit's type, the fact that it was weak to both Ice Beam and Earthquake was a big problem. Electric/Bug isn't weak to either of them, and it's the only type combination available that can say that. The other most common attack type in the game is Fighting, and it even resists that. When you think about it that way, the Rock weakness doesn't seem to be that big of a deal.

 

[Tint]

I've been supporting water/electice since post 7, glad to see people are seeing the light. It gives you so many options ability wise, and you don't have to bank on Magic Guard, or on a move like Magnet Rise, for which you also need high speed, another maybe. Water is solid, and gives you many ways to go with the ENTIRE project, not just ability.

 

[Veedrock]

I also don't understand where the need for fighting resist comes from. Argonaut relies on his Water STAB a lot more than Fighting from what I can tell (Electric/Water resists that), and CAP8 won't be stopping Revenankh regardless. Infernape has Fire STAB to fry Bug typing (again, Water resists that). Where does this need for Fighting resist stem from?

 

[ferron]

don't you hate when you write a long detailed argument only to accidentily hit refresh and lose it...? grrrr....

anyways, heres a quick recap on to what i would have written:
i don't support poison, fighting, normal or ground b/c i don't want both STABs to have something immune to them.
electric/water gets a check from just about every grass type in the game.
grass and rock leave far too many weaknesses for me to really consider.
ice is just about everywhere, making dragon unappealing.

this leaves bug and dark for my consideration. both of which are decent defensively but have little to add on coverage-wise.

edit @ veed- how about the fact that superpower, CC, cross chop and brickbreak are all good attacks that are common?

 

[Tint]

electric/water gets a check from just about every grass type in the game.

How?

First off, name three OU grass types.
Hard, isn't it?

Second, EVERY fully-evolved water gets Ice Beam, which is at least neutral on every grass-type in the game, so how do these things give it a check?
You really need to think about what you're typing.

edit @ veed- how about the fact that superpower, CC, cross chop and brickbreak are all good attacks that are common?

How is Cross Chop a good move? And fighting has an entire type IMMUNE to it. You don't want to resist fighting, you want to switch out to your ghost, at least that's how i've been playing for all my life. I also don't see the point in focusing on fighting, there are other threatening attack types, and fighting isn't gamebreaking imo.

 

[ferron]

How?

First off, name three OU grass types.
Hard, isn't it?

Second, EVERY fully-evolved water gets Ice Beam, which is at least neutral on every grass-type in the game, so how do these things give it a check?
You really need to think about what you're typing.

celebi and breloom can usually be found in the top 20, so you don't need three if the two are already that good.

also, you would have to use up a moveslot to deal with only them when it could be doing more seems like a waste doesn't it? time for you to think before you type.

edit- the fighting comment was in response to the last sentence in veed's post. also, there is the small fact that fighting is one of the most used attacking types. then there's the fact you say cross chop is bad...if so, then why is it recommended on various pokes from machamp to electivire?

 

[Tint]

Ice type hits the following types super effective: Grass, Ground, Flying, Dragon. It hits these neutral: Normal, Electric, Fighting, Poison, Psychic, Bug, Rock, Ghost, and Dark. Only Fire, Water, Ice and Steel resist it.
How is that wasting a moveslot if Ice is one of the best attacking types in the game, if not THE best. Its recommended in tons of sets, and I can promise it's not to hit Breloom and Celebi.

edit- the fighting comment was in response to the last sentence in veed's post. also, there is the small fact that fighting is one of the most used attacking types. then there's the fact you say cross chop is bad...then why is it recommended on various pokes from machamp to electivire?

When did I say it was bad? I asked how you thought of it as good, when it's a decent option at best imo.

 

[Atomos]

The apperent second types are in no specific order:
1. Grass
Heatran would Kill, Grass only has one "Good" move, unless it ends up with technician. On the plus side you do lose ground weakness
2. Dragon
Would be nice! Has decent resistances, It could switch in with small prediction, STAB outrage.
3. Dark
Again, Heatran would destroy(Earth Power).
4. Water
Celebi, Latias, Maybe breloom, Pryoak. NEXT
5. Poison
NO NO NO NO! Earthquake people!
6. Fighting
Latias would completly wall it.

 

[Veedrock]

You're assuming perfect stats. Salamence and Flygon have spiffy dragon resistances too but still get their ass kicked by strong STAB attacks (like Heatran's Fire Blast). And with Water, yes, it's beaten by the rare grass type and Latias (and Water is neutral on Pyroak >_>), but compared to other typing that's really the lesser end of the typing pool (and as mentioned, Water types always pack Ice attack which handles them perfectly, but I'll leave extra attack moves out of it for now), and you also neglected Water and Poison's defensive capabilities (focusing on STAB with everything except Dragon. Coincidence?).

Technician wouldn't do anything for a Grass type >_>

 

[Matthew]

I also don't understand where the need for fighting resist comes from. Argonaut relies on his Water STAB a lot more than Fighting from what I can tell (Electric/Water resists that), and CAP8 won't be stopping Revenankh regardless. Infernape has Fire STAB to fry Bug typing (again, Water resists that). Where does this need for Fighting resist stem from?

Alright, I'm drugged up but lets see how I do. I also don't see how CAP8 will not be an answer to Revenankh, I mean he relies on Bulk Up, Hammer Arm and Shadow Sneak, Shadow Sneak is a weak attack and the Hammer arm does jack to you. Infernape does hurt us with STAB Fire Blast, true. But since you're pulling for Electric / Water so bad I'll say that Salamence carries Earthquake (which Bug would be neutral to). We want a Fighting-type resist because moves like Close Combat, SuperPower, Brick Break and whatever else (DynamicPunch) are everywhere, and true you can run a Ghost-type, but we don't say "oh, well Ghosts do the job better" and ignore the possibility of a typing. No, so your arguments are poor, "I don't see the need for a Fighting-type resist, oh yeah Fire-type attacks hurt CAP8 now, can't have that!"

 

[Elevator Music]

You guys do realize the only pokemon in OU that "wall Poison and Electric" our Poison/Electric mon shouldn't be in on (stuff like Hippowdon or Flygon) or can't really hurt it either (Magnezone).

For posterity:
- Donphan
- Dugtrio
- Flygon
- Gliscor
- Hippowdon
- Magnezone
- Rhyperior
- Swampert
- Fidgit

See the pattern (and the odd ball out)? In most cases Elec/Whatever shouldn't even be in on these pokemon, and the few type combos that plausibly could have their own faults that they should worry about, whether it be a SR weakness or whatever.




On a side note please stop making a parody of my reasoning. It was cute the first time and the second time it made me smile, but the third person that does it won't make me laugh. Not to mention my reasoning was actually correct while the others were... shaky.


EDIT- Normally I'd like Ghost or Psychic or whatever as a Fighting resist but the fact of the matter is that Poison does it best, mostly because moves that Fighting-types commonly run (Payback, Megahorn, Stone Edge, Elemental Punch, etc) the other Fighting resists are weak to. Not to mention that Fighting-types never run the moves Poison is weak to (Earthquake, Psychic lol).

 

[Veedrock]

Alright, I'm drugged up but lets see how I do. I also don't see how CAP8 will not be an answer to Revenankh, I mean he relies on Bulk Up, Hammer Arm and Shadow Sneak, Shadow Sneak is a weak attack and the Hammer arm does jack to you. Infernape does hurt us with STAB Fire Blast, true. But since you're pulling for Electric / Water so bad I'll say that Salamence carries Earthquake (which Bug would be neutral to). We want a Fighting-type resist because moves like Close Combat, SuperPower, Brick Break and whatever else (DynamicPunch) are everywhere, and true you can run a Ghost-type, but we don't say "oh, well Ghosts do the job better" and ignore the possibility of a typing. No, so your arguments are poor, "I don't see the need for a Fighting-type resist, oh yeah Fire-type attacks hurt CAP8 now, can't have that!"

My gripe isn't fire weakness with Bug; it's Stealth Rock. I only mentioned fire in Infernape's case because the fighting resist doesn't help there. And yes, Rev relies on Hammer Arm/Shadow Sneak, but he's bulky as fuck and you wouldn't be able to break him (Zapdos can't even do it, wtf?). Outside of what I mentioned, Scizor is the only common thing that comes to mind with Superpower, but even then it's a one shot deal and if it isn't Super Effective, it won't KO regardless. UnSTAB'd Brick Break is mellow and shrugged off resisted or not (and atm only Pyroak comes to mind carrying it), and nothing comes up with Close Combat unless it's STAB'd. To be fair, it could help with Machamp (confusion blows), Breloom, and Heracross (totally missed Breloom and Machamp on the statistics page o.o;). I just don't feel it's needed all that badly, and if it is then I'd much rather have Poison and completely avoid Stealth Rock rape.

 

[TwistedSpaceman]

Hm, well firstly I will say

WATER

This is because not only does it have a good set of resistances, two weaknesses, and everyone else supporting water sounded realy sophisticated, It also allows the pokemon to acess some ice moves without putting itself at rick of stealthrock. Not only that, many abilities that were considered could work very well with water. Yay for water!


Oh yeah, and dragon sounds god too, though I'm not really sure why...

And though it isn't that good, just for uniquness/ people that like single typing should use-

NORMAL!

 

[Matthew]

My gripe isn't fire weakness with Bug; it's Stealth Rock. I only mentioned fire in Infernape's case because the fighting resist doesn't help there. And yes, Rev relies on Hammer Arm/Shadow Sneak, but he's bulky as fuck and you wouldn't be able to break him (Zapdos can't even do it, wtf?). Outside of what I mentioned, Scizor is the only common thing that comes to mind with Superpower, but even then it's a one shot deal and if it isn't Super Effective, it won't KO regardless. UnSTAB'd Brick Break is mellow and shrugged off resisted or not (and atm only Pyroak comes to mind carrying it), and nothing comes up with Close Combat unless it's STAB'd. To be fair, it could help with Machamp (confusion blows), Breloom, and Heracross (totally missed Breloom and Machamp on the statistics page o.o;). I just don't feel it's needed all that badly.

Stealth Rock weakness does not make a pokemon poor. Case and point Zapdos, Salamence and Gyarados.

 

[bpblu]

I like what EM said, actually... considering what counter Elec/Poison. I'm still not 100% convinced on it, but what does wall it, it has no business against. Even then, you can easily predict an EQ and switch in something that nullifies it completely. And while Magnezone walls Elec/Poison, it needs HP Ice or it's not doing much back in return (unless we decide to make this Pokemon offensive and therefore having mediocre defenses).

I think the big dual typing that's caught my eye at the moment is Electric/Ground.

Yes, Electric/Ground is weak to Water and Ice (Grass as well). I know this. So what exactly is stopping you from switching in... oh say, Vaporeon to eat an incoming Water attack? In my mind, Electric/Ground has no business with Grass-types, so you'd probably switch out. Water Pokemon can come in if Elec/Ground kills something and possibly scare it off, but as far as I know, only Swampert could come in on it safely. Don't pull Gyarados on me either... unless Elec/Ground-mon is stuck in EQ via a Choice item, Gyarados isn't swithcing into it anytime soon.

I agree that Elec/Ground-mon would have some pretty nasty weaknesses to common types. But so does Heatran and look at how popular it is! Don't let common weaknesses scare you off. There are ways to work around them.

 

[macle]

Alright, I'm drugged up but lets see how I do. I also don't see how CAP8 will not be an answer to Revenankh, I mean he relies on Bulk Up, Hammer Arm and Shadow Sneak, Shadow Sneak is a weak attack and the Hammer arm does jack to you. Infernape does hurt us with STAB Fire Blast, true. But since you're pulling for Electric / Water so bad I'll say that Salamence carries Earthquake (which Bug would be neutral to). We want a Fighting-type resist because moves like Close Combat, SuperPower, Brick Break and whatever else (DynamicPunch) are everywhere, and true you can run a Ghost-type, but we don't say "oh, well Ghosts do the job better" and ignore the possibility of a typing. No, so your arguments are poor, "I don't see the need for a Fighting-type resist, oh yeah Fire-type attacks hurt CAP8 now, can't have that!"

Gen, we already have 2 caps that immune to fighting attacks. I don't see the need to make this one to resist it. Also in all my matches on the ladderr so far I've rarely seen someone spam a fighting attack.

I don't see why we need it not be weak to sr. There are tons of great typing that we could do but since we don't want it weak to sr we don't want them. :(

 

[Veedrock]

The thing about SR weakness is that you can't pile it up. Zapdos is ultra defensive with instant recovery and can work with it. Salamence and Gyarados hit like trains and only need to be in one time to work out (any more is suicide). However, these things aren't usually on the same teams. That's because carrying more than one SR weak pokemon is a major burden (and carrying Rapid Spin is another large burden for teams), so creating an SR weak CAP means it'll be foregone for other SR Weak beasts, from this perspective.

 

[Matthew]

Gen, we already have 2 caps that immune to fighting attacks. I don't see the need to make this one to resist it. Also in all my matches on the ladderr so far I've rarely seen someone spam a fighting attack.

I don't see why we need it not be weak to sr. There are tons of great typing that we could do but since we don't want it weak to sr we don't want them. :(

Don't get me wrong, I understand why a Electric/Bug pokemon is not completely needed, I was simply telling Veedrock how his arguments weren't that great at all. I want the second type to be Bug, honestly Electric / Ground may be the best choice; that doesn't matter to me though, I will defend Electric/Bug as an option.

 

[Falgaia]

First off, name three OU grass types.
Hard, isn't it?

In addition to what was said before, Shaymin works fairly well in OU. Not necessarily OU, but pretty good still.

I also only see SR weakness coming into play on a Defensive pokemon. If it's going to die in one hit anyway, who really cares?

 

[familyguyman]

Stealth Rock weakness does not make a pokemon poor. Case and point Zapdos, Salamence and Gyarados.

Salamence is meant to break stuff and can roost anyways. Zapdos is a staller who can also roost and Gyarados can Taunt or kill stuff to buy leftovers time. Unless this pokemon ends up with a recovery move and/or bulky, SR weak is not a good thing. And bug typing isn't good enough to warrant it. Bug and Electric attacks are resisted by 7 types when paired.

 

[Fuzzberry]

The apperent second types are in no specific order:
1. Grass
Heatran would Kill, Grass only has one "Good" move, unless it ends up with technician. On the plus side you do lose ground weakness
2. Dragon
Would be nice! Has decent resistances, It could switch in with small prediction, STAB outrage.
3. Dark
Again, Heatran would destroy(Earth Power).
4. Water
Celebi, Latias, Maybe breloom, Pryoak. NEXT
5. Poison
NO NO NO NO! Earthquake people!
6. Fighting
Latias would completly wall it.

Okay, I haven't posted much this CAP, but that's because I've had nothing truly constuctive thusfar. I have to set some stuff straight here, just because no one else has.

We're not trying to beat EVERY Pokemon out there. You're being a little nitpicky. Just because a typing has a particular weakness doesn't make it completely unusable. *cough* Garchomp. *cough*

Technician isn't even an option for ability. It's not neglected.

Grass has more than one good move, Energy Ball and Grass Knot coming off the top of my head.

With the reasoning you've got there, we'd never get anywhere. Even by your logic, Dragon has a big flaw: Ice, one of the most common attacking types.

You've got to have at least a few weaknesses, or else you've got yourself an broken Pokemon that can't be used anyway.