CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 5a - Ability Discussion

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Please read this through.

I want people to think once more on the ability Flower Gift. It its totaly an undervalued ability that could, especially on CAP8, really make a big change in the metagame.
Why rain teams is better than sun teams: Rain teams often uses Swift swim pokemons that in rain both get dubbel speed and an extra psusedo-STAB for water moves. Also there is alot of type combinations for water types (water/[about any other typ]) that can compensate its weaknesses. Electric types/pokemon that can use Thunder also likes Rain. But Sun teams only has grass pokemons that has chlorofyll but no normal fire-STAB. Only good thing grass pokes get is 1turn Solarbeam, but Grass knot is almost as good on the things you want to use it on and isn't crippled by any other wheather. So mostly its Grass and Fire types pokemon that is the base behind Sun teams and most of those pokemons has pretty shallow movepools. And there is very few pokemon that can cover up their weaknesses and still work good the team......Until now!
With Flower Gift CAP8 will get 50% boost in both Attack and Sp.Defence. It works both as a offensive and defensive ability. CAP8 can help Grass pokemons of the team by its Fire and Flying resistance and Fire types by its Water resistance. CAP8s weaknesses works also really well, because the Ground resistance is coverd by Grass pokes and the Ice weakness is coverd by Fire pokemons. And by being dragon it can kill other dragons that resists both Fire and Grass moves.
Dont take any thought about the flavour in the name "Flower Gift" it could be renamed for flavour if people want that.
The ability is workable and will be more than a "passive ability" as it will help in the making of the stat spread and the movepool polls. It will work as a good guideline on what we should focus on to achive with the ability. As if we just take Static/Shield dust (just examples) it wont be the ability that will make the process and will be the core of this CAP. It will be more about the bulky Electric/Dragon that we has choosend before it. Think for a second, like what moves could be extra usefull or not so usefull because of the ability Static or Shield dust?
CAP8 imo should be about how we can create a pokemon around an undervalued ability a neglected Ability. Not about how we create a pokemon that we choose an ability that is not so common but very good, but in this very case it may not be the perfect one for this type or bias that we have.
As CAP8s Attack stat will probobly be mediocre (as we went for slightly special in the bias) this ability could make it really shine with moves like Volt takle and Outrage. But it would also work really well as an defensive ability. And it could save som attack or sp.def. stat points here and there to improve the overall pokemon feeling.
Though I am not saying that Flower gift necessarily needs to be the only ability on CAP8, I am just saying it could be a really good one. The only pokemon with Flower Gift is Cherrim and thats a really bad grass pokemon. The only time you se cherrim is on sunny dubbel battle teams where it ability boosts its partner also which is good enought to have him on the team, that good is the ability.

Flower Gift could really work for CAP8 and could open a whole new dimention for sunteams. And that alone will make a big change in the metagame that we could learn alot from. This is the ability that I think we could learn most from with how CAP8 looks right now. Thats why I think people should vote Flower gift as CAP8 ability.
 
Hm, well since this is still open I'll post here. I believe this will be overlooked in the polling thread, so I apologize if this is inappropriate.

Ability 2 is pretty much up for dispute, seeing as the Primary ability is going in one general direction (this post will assume Shield Dust wins). I'd just like everyone (that's not stubborn) to consider an offensive ability. The reasoning behind this is that CAP8 has severe potential to play both ways depending on player preference. Since Shield Dust is primarily defensive, something offensive would even it out more. Of course, the ability should be something that will not overshadow Shield Dust. Hustle fits this well. Shield Dust acts as anti-hax, while Hustle turns everything into Stone Edge or worse (basically encourages "hax"). Pretty difficult ability to utilize that'll make Shield Dust more preferable in most cases.

Of course it doesn't need to be Hustle, that's just the best "cost versus benefit" that won't overshadow Shield Dust IMO. A quick rundown of a few other offensive abilities. Unburden allows for an instant agility assuming you can dump your item, which is always nice. Gluttony can work but (I feel) is only really effective with Belly Drum, as Subboost sets won't benefit much from activating a turn early. Iron Fist, Skill Link, Rockhead and Reckless are really specialized so that they won't outperform Shield Dust (usually), but then again that specialization really hinders their effectiveness and benefit to CAP8. The sun abilities can work, but will more often than not be useless (if we want to boost sun, a specific concept will be needed imo. Just slapping Chlorophyll on something won't suddenly make sun better =/). Mold Breaker really isn't all that great as EQ won't hit a lot of things any harder than STAB and Shedinja isn't that common (more specifc examples are pretty meh too). Suction Cups would make this a great baton pass recipient (but on a personal note I think with CAP8's dual stab and stuff, it'd be pushing it), but defenisve pokemon don't really care about being phazed.

I'm pulling for Hustle and hope it's actually considered (rather than "I already know what I want"), but would be content with (nearly) anything offensive. I'm aware that we're technically "Slightly Defensive," but that doesn't prevent their being offensive potential.
 
Veedrock said:
Hm, well since this is still open I'll post here. I believe this will be overlooked in the polling thread, so I apologize if this is inappropriate.

Ability 2 is pretty much up for dispute, seeing as the Primary ability is going in one general direction (this post will assume Shield Dust wins). I'd just like everyone (that's not stubborn) to consider an offensive ability. The reasoning behind this is that CAP8 has severe potential to play both ways depending on player preference. Since Shield Dust is primarily defensive, something offensive would even it out more. Of course, the ability should be something that will not overshadow Shield Dust. Hustle fits this well. Shield Dust acts as anti-hax, while Hustle turns everything into Stone Edge or worse (basically encourages "hax"). Pretty difficult ability to utilize that'll make Shield Dust more preferable in most cases.

Of course it doesn't need to be Hustle, that's just the best "cost versus benefit" that won't overshadow Shield Dust IMO. A quick rundown of a few other offensive abilities. Unburden allows for an instant agility assuming you can dump your item, which is always nice. Gluttony can work but (I feel) is only really effective with Belly Drum, as Subboost sets won't benefit much from activating a turn early. Iron Fist, Skill Link, Rockhead and Reckless are really specialized so that they won't outperform Shield Dust (usually), but then again that specialization really hinders their effectiveness and benefit to CAP8. The sun abilities can work, but will more often than not be useless (if we want to boost sun, a specific concept will be needed imo. Just slapping Chlorophyll on something won't suddenly make sun better =/). Mold Breaker really isn't all that great as EQ won't hit a lot of things any harder than STAB and Shedinja isn't that common (more specifc examples are pretty meh too). Suction Cups would make this a great baton pass recipient (but on a personal note I think with CAP8's dual stab and stuff, it'd be pushing it), but defenisve pokemon don't really care about being phazed.

I'm pulling for Hustle and hope it's actually considered (rather than "I already know what I want"), but would be content with (nearly) anything offensive. I'm aware that we're technically "Slightly Defensive," but that doesn't prevent their being offensive potential.
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Hustle is utterly useless in and of itself. Have you seen the Base Attacks in the Base Stat Submission thread? Even the better ones wouldn't make good use of it. Heck, I wouldn't use Hustle over Mold Breaker if Rampardos got it, a 20% accuracy drop is that bad. You might as well be slinging Dynamicpunches around. No way would anyone in their right mind use it over Shield Dust. I'd much rather go for something equally disruptive than what amounts to a self-nerf. The only way you'd use it is if CAP8 got both Volt Tackle and Outrage, and at that point you're risking 80% on something Hippowdon and Cresselia can still shrug off.
 
The abilities trade offs are pretty drastic, but I don't think it's garbage. The accuracy drop does not affect Special Moves, meaning there is leeway in move selection for going mixed, using physical attack ONLY where needed (meaning not on Hippowdon >_>). Togekiss has a base 50 Attack and still gets use out of it. Your spread has 60 Attack, so I'll go with that number. Calcs assume +0, 252 +Attack, Life Orb, using Outrage:

Code: 
Mence vs. standard Hippowdon: 47.14% - 55.71%
CAP 8 vs. standard Hippowdon: 42.14% - 49.52%
 
Mence vs. 252/252 Bold Suicune: 46.78% - 55.20%
CAP 8 vs. 252/252 Bold Suicune: 41.58% - 49.01%
 
Mence vs. 252/252 Bold Cresselia: 41.22% - 48.65%
CAP 8 vs. 252/252 Bold Cresselia: 36.49% - 43.24%
 
Mence vs. 252/0 Gliscor: 33.33% - 39.55%
CAP 8 vs. 252/0 Gliscor: 29.66% - 35.03%
 
Mence vs. standard Skarmory: 25.75% - 30.54%
CAP 8 vs. standard Skarmory: 22.75% - 26.95%

The last calc was for kicks. CAP8 just barely falls behind 'Mence, who has a base 135 Attack, with only 60 base Attack! Of course this ignores that we (could) have Volt Tackle for Skarmory and Suicune, among other things. It's far from completely useless. You're correct that it'll take drastic circumstances to use it over Shield Dust, but that is something I'm aiming for (if it wasn't apparant in my previous post). I still think it's a viable option worth consideration.
 
If we want a secondary ability, one that complements Shield Dust would be good. Since Shield Dust forces opponents to use direct status moves if they want to status CaP8, Synchronize, Marvel Scale, and Quick Feet seem like good ways to punish that.

--Marvel Scale is obviously a great defensive ability, but seems like it might overshadow Shield Dust, and Milotic does put it to great use.

--Quick Feet would be a fairly good offensive ability, if we want to take Veedrock's idea, and CaP8's lower attacking stats/speed should prevent it from overshadowing Shield Dust. No OU or UU Pokemon has Quick Feet, so it would certainly qualify as neglected.

--Synchronize is a rather fun idea. Burning Rotom-A, paralyzing various Twavers, and sending Toxics back at their users. With Rest, you could do this multiple times. Admittedly, Alakazam has Synchronize, but he's low OU, and generally prefers Inner Focus.

Also, are we going to keep the name Shield Dust or give it a different name?
 
Veedrock said:
The abilities trade offs are pretty drastic, but I don't think it's garbage. The accuracy drop does not affect Special Moves, meaning there is leeway in move selection for going mixed, using physical attack ONLY where needed (meaning not on Hippowdon >_>). Togekiss has a base 50 Attack and still gets use out of it. Your spread has 60 Attack, so I'll go with that number. Calcs assume +0, 252 +Attack, Life Orb, using Outrage:

Code: 
Mence vs. standard Hippowdon: 47.14% - 55.71%
CAP 8 vs. standard Hippowdon: 42.14% - 49.52%
 
Mence vs. 252/252 Bold Suicune: 46.78% - 55.20%
CAP 8 vs. 252/252 Bold Suicune: 41.58% - 49.01%
 
Mence vs. 252/252 Bold Cresselia: 41.22% - 48.65%
CAP 8 vs. 252/252 Bold Cresselia: 36.49% - 43.24%
 
Mence vs. 252/0 Gliscor: 33.33% - 39.55%
CAP 8 vs. 252/0 Gliscor: 29.66% - 35.03%
 
Mence vs. standard Skarmory: 25.75% - 30.54%
CAP 8 vs. standard Skarmory: 22.75% - 26.95%
The last calc was for kicks. CAP8 just barely falls behind 'Mence, who has a base 135 Attack, with only 60 base Attack! Of course this ignores that we (could) have Volt Tackle for Skarmory and Suicune, among other things. It's far from completely useless. You're correct that it'll take drastic circumstances to use it over Shield Dust, but that is something I'm aiming for (if it wasn't apparant in my previous post). I still think it's a viable option worth consideration.
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Those are some fairly convincing damage calcs Veedrock. You've convinced me on Hustle. Unburden is the only other decent offensive ability other than Solar Power which needs sun, and even with double speed from Unburden CAP8 won't be sweeping with its mediocre attacking stats.

Hustle on the other hand gives potential for gimmick sets like CBkiss without overshadowing Shield Dust.
 
No secondary ability helps with the concept of this cap. We are suppose to base the cap around the ability but I don't see how we can do that with two abilities. =/
 
What's the harm in having an ability with very limited use? I don't see the appeal to No Secondary Ability if the secondary ability is as good as "not there" anyways. Like this post:

billymills said:
but the best option mentioned so far is No Secondary Ability.

Rough skin and Hustle will see no use, Trace is not needed.
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If Rough Skin won't see use, what possible harm can come from having it? Same with Hustle. You say "We are suppose to base the cap around the ability" but what if it needs no direction? The only thing absolutely required with Hustle is that we watch/limit the attack stat, which won't be very high anyways. Physical moves will be in the movepool regardless of if the ability is there or not, so I fail to see how it could "mess it up." (lol, how do you base around Shield Dust??)
 
Considering that the whole point of CAP is to explore the metagame, how does limiting out options actually achieve that purpose?

Isn't it better on principle to have two abilities on each CAP so that the metagame can learn even more about the use of each one rather than having to theorymon which if we accepted was valid and true in all cases would invalidate CAP?

I hope that people are not secretly choosing No Secondary Ability based on that flavor-based fact that no CAP before has had only one ability.

I also hope that non-No Secondary Ability voters can switch to an ability they find a consensus on.
 
Veedrock said:
Let's Hustle.

Basically I'm looking for 3 things:
  1. Offensive ability - Shield Dust is (primarily) defensive, so let's keep with the balanced theme and give offensive options a shot.
  2. Does not overshadow Shield Dust - I want Shield Dust to be the primary option, and not be overlooked for some better ability. You expect people to use Shield Dust over Trace? I don't want a superior option that leaves it untouched, and don't think "No secondary ability" is needed to make it used.
  3. Not completely worthless - Things like Iron Fist and Reckless are cool and not overshadowing because of their limitation, but they're so limited that they're benefit is not worth it (especially considering that most spreads have a low attack). Sun abilities rely on a rare field condition that's difficult to maintain. Hustle provides a large attack boost which is very handy. For those not convinced of Hustle's usefulness, here are some calcs. 252 +nature, Life Orb, +0, using Outrage, CAP8 has 60 Base Attack (mirroring the Deck/tennis spread).
Code: 
Mence vs. standard Hippowdon: 47.14% - 55.71%
CAP 8 vs. standard Hippowdon: 42.14% - 49.52%
 
Mence vs. 252/252 Bold Suicune: 46.78% - 55.20%
CAP 8 vs. 252/252 Bold Suicune: 41.58% - 49.01%
 
Mence vs. 252/252 Bold Cresselia: 41.22% - 48.65%
CAP 8 vs. 252/252 Bold Cresselia: 36.49% - 43.24%
 
Mence vs. standard Skarmory: 25.75% - 30.54%
CAP 8 vs. standard Skarmory: 22.75% - 26.95%

Hustle is obviously offensive. It does not overshadow Shield Dust because 80% accuracy (or worse) on all physical moves is ass (ask locopoke :P), and only specific set options will benefit from it. As the calcs demonstrate, it's not completely useless despite the accuracy drop as it does make CAP8 hit pretty hard and leaves room for mixed (or even pure physical) options. Hustle does not affect the accuracy of Special and support moves, meaning going mixed leaves you with with perfect Special moves, with your physical options being "last resort" (like with Blissey, NOT Hippowdon).

For those that advocate "we can't split our priorities, look at Stratagem," A) how do you even build around Shield Dust? and B) Hustle doesn't really need "built" around, just give it physical moves (which it'll have anyways).
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20% accuracy loss on all physical moves and it still manages to be outclassed by mence... so remind me, why is hustle the best choice? ._.
 
Indeed. And also, those examples you gave aren't so great. Skarmory and Hippowdown, along with that Cresseila set, would be able to be hit harder on the special side anyway, so I don't see the appeal at all of hitting them with inaccurate physical attacks. Suicune is really the only decent example there, and that's only because of CM.

As for going mixed with Hustle... That really depends on where the Attack stat ends up. If it is somewhere around 60 Atk, as your calcs demonstrate, it needs max attack investment to even come close to doing the same as Mence, and doing it with shaky accuracy. As a result, it could quite possibly be better off just going full-special, depending on where they end up, and just ignoring Hustle altogehter.

However, assuming it's holding Life Orb, even if it does only have 60 Atk, it would need an investment of about 80 EVs with a neutral nature to guarantee a 2HKO on even 252 HP /252 Def Bold Bliss with Outrage/Volt Tackle (although, that's ignoring the accuracy, so factoring that in, you'd only have a 64% chance of hitting both times to KO, without a larger investment). But, that is with Life Orb, and either locking it into Outrage or taking a huge amount of damage from Life Orb+VT Recoil (and 80 EVs is a bit much, and they could probably be put to better use elsewhere as a result). So, even then, it's questionably worth it. If the Attack in the selected poll is around 70 or above, it might be worth it, but even then, it would still be primarily for Blissey, due to it's shakiness of doing anything at all in other situations. And since the most popular stat spreads seem to be tennis's/Deck's, which has 60 Atk, and Plus's, which has 70, I'm just not sure how useful it would be.

Although, I suppose if this thing gets Superpower, Hustle might be worth it for taking out Snorlax/Bliss with it. But that would be assuming it gets it. Plus, that would be taking down three of the things that might actually be able to check/deal with this Pokemon: Blissey, Snorlax, and Tyranitar (although I'd need to run calcs for T-tar to see if that would be practical, which I don't have time to do right now). That basically only leaves Metagross as the only actual check and things like Latias for revenge-killing, and Brozong if you want to try going Boom on it. And that's not really a direction I think we want to take the metagame, so Superpower would most likely be out. And with that, there really isn't too much appeal to Hustle to me.
 
Veedrock said:
Code: 
Mence vs. standard Hippowdon: 47.14% - 55.71%
CAP 8 vs. standard Hippowdon: 42.14% - 49.52%
 
Mence vs. 252/252 Bold Suicune: 46.78% - 55.20%
CAP 8 vs. 252/252 Bold Suicune: 41.58% - 49.01%
 
Mence vs. 252/252 Bold Cresselia: 41.22% - 48.65%
CAP 8 vs. 252/252 Bold Cresselia: 36.49% - 43.24%
 
Mence vs. 252/0 Gliscor: 33.33% - 39.55%
CAP 8 vs. 252/0 Gliscor: 29.66% - 35.03%
 
Mence vs. standard Skarmory: 25.75% - 30.54%
CAP 8 vs. standard Skarmory: 22.75% - 26.95%
Click to expand...

Your calcs are decent, but how do they compare to say... a Draco Meteor?
Using 252 EVs on DK/tennis' spread, like you did with a neutral nature, holding a LO against the same four pokemon's sets:

Code: 
CAP 8 vs. Standard Hippowdon: 75.00% - 88.33%

CAP 8 vs. 252/0 Bold Cresselia: 48.65% - 57.21%

CAP 8 vs. 252/0 Gliscor: 96.61% - 113.56%

CAP 8 vs. standard Skarmory: 52.77% - 62.36%

Yeah... why am I using hustle??
 
hydrolphin said:
Your calcs are decent, but how do they compare to say... a Draco Meteor?
Using 252 EVs on DK/tennis' spread, like you did with a neutral nature, holding a LO against the same four pokemon's sets:

Code: 
CAP 8 vs. Standard Hippowdon: 75.00% - 88.33%

CAP 8 vs. 252/0 Bold Cresselia: 48.65% - 57.21%

CAP 8 vs. 252/0 Gliscor: 96.61% - 113.56%

CAP 8 vs. standard Skarmory: 52.77% - 62.36%
Yeah... why am I using hustle??
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He used physical walls for his Calculations, ofcourse they would take higher damage from the special side.

Try calculating Hustle Outrage and Draco Meteor on Blissey or any other Special wall.
 
Just an idea that I think I might have found, but if my assumptions are correct, this pokemon would be the ultimate Light Screen/Reflect user. My idea stems from Shield Dust. Shield Dust negates the secondary effects of moves, if I'm not mistaken. If so, would it negate Brick Breaks effect of breaking LS/R? If this is correct, CAP8 would basically be the ultimate LS/R user.

Could someone please enlighten me as to whether this tactic would work?
 
XandZero2 said:
Just an idea that I think I might have found, but if my assumptions are correct, this pokemon would be the ultimate Light Screen/Reflect user. My idea stems from Shield Dust. Shield Dust negates the secondary effects of moves, if I'm not mistaken. If so, would it negate Brick Breaks effect of breaking LS/R? If this is correct, CAP8 would basically be the ultimate LS/R user.

Could someone please enlighten me as to whether this tactic would work?
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that you are wrong here. I think shield dust only prevent secondary effects with a certain percentage of happening. As far as I know Brick Break is sorta like a hit CH ratio move when it comes to Shield Dust.
 
XandZero2 said:
Just an idea that I think I might have found, but if my assumptions are correct, this pokemon would be the ultimate Light Screen/Reflect user. My idea stems from Shield Dust. Shield Dust negates the secondary effects of moves, if I'm not mistaken. If so, would it negate Brick Breaks effect of breaking LS/R? If this is correct, CAP8 would basically be the ultimate LS/R user.

Could someone please enlighten me as to whether this tactic would work?
Click to expand...
I've looked up on the matter and only moves that can have their effects doubled by Serene Grace can be nulled. Therefore, things like Critical Hit ratio and Flinches, but things like Draco Meteor reducing Special Attack and, consequently, Brick Break shattering screens still occur.
 
cyberzero said:
I've looked up on the matter and only moves that can have their effects doubled by Serene Grace can be nulled. Therefore, things like Critical Hit ratio and Flinches, but things like Draco Meteor reducing Special Attack and, consequently, Brick Break shattering screens still occur.
Click to expand...
I can confirm that the screens shatter, as my friend and I just tested this with a Venomoth.
 
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