To be fair, it's pretty difficult to not have the game decided by Garchomp if you're both using it and force the match to come down to a Speed tie (or lolsandveil), instead of exploring alternative victory conditions. :/
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Suspect Test Process Stage Three - Version 2.0!
- Thread starter Aeolus
- Start date
To be fair, it's pretty difficult to not have the game decided by Garchomp if you're both using it and force the match to come down to a Speed tie (or lolsandveil), instead of exploring alternative victory conditions. :/
Chomp is pissing me off... its like whoever can best set up Chomp to sweep wins. Brightpowder is some gay shiet.. But in other terms, I still see SD Yache or CB to be very viable.
I really wanted Chomp to make a case to be OU.. but it real good.. even better than Scizor. It is extremely hard to take it down w/o a centralized team that consists at least some of the following: Latias, Scarfers, Priority users (Scizor, Mamoswine, and Lucario.) But odds are I probably didn't build the right team for suspect yet.
I really wanted Chomp to make a case to be OU.. but it real good.. even better than Scizor. It is extremely hard to take it down w/o a centralized team that consists at least some of the following: Latias, Scarfers, Priority users (Scizor, Mamoswine, and Lucario.) But odds are I probably didn't build the right team for suspect yet.
Yeah, that's my thought, exactly. In my experience on the suspect ladder Garchomp has been everything but underwhelming. I'm using the sub-salac sweeper set with sansdstorm support, and it's amazingly powerful. Basically if you're able to eliminate Skarmory\Bronzong, which isn't that hard with Magnezone support (though shed shell Skarm is really annoying), you have an almost guaranteed late game sweep. Scizor can somehow check it, but once again, bullet punch is fairly predictable and Magnezone can make short work of Scizor, nontheless, a CB bullet punch is not even guaranteed to 2hko Chomp. Also, with substitute and sand veil your opponent has to pray for their moves not to miss as even a 100% accurate move has a shabby 80% chance to hit Garchomp (and a 64% chance to hit twice in a row), and I've witnessed several battles decided by sand veil hax (note: I'm not saying that sand veil is, alone, a good argument to ban Chomp, it's just the icing on the cake). Just as an example, this log is taken from a battle I watched yesterday:
Code:
-FREE GARCHOMP- switched in Garchomp (lvl 100 Garchomp ?).
Pointed stones dug into Garchomp.
Garchomp lost 6% of its health.
Havak switched in Swampert (lvl 100 Swampert ?).
Pointed stones dug into Swampert.
Swampert lost 6% of its health.
Garchomp used Substitute.
Garchomp lost 25% of its health.
Garchomp made a substitute!
The sandstorm rages.
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
---
Garchomp used Swords Dance.
Garchomp's attack was sharply raised.
Swampert used Ice Beam.
Swampert's attack missed!
The sandstorm rages.
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
---
Garchomp used Swords Dance.
Garchomp's attack was sharply raised.
Swampert used Ice Beam.
Swampert's attack missed!
The sandstorm rages.
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
---
-FREE GARCHOMP-: STRONG Garchomp
Havak: Okay yeh I agree my luck is not very good against you xD
Garchomp used Earthquake.
Swampert lost 91% of its health.
Havak's Swampert fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
-FREE GARCHOMP-: lol
Havak switched in Magnezone (lvl 100 Magnezone).
Pointed stones dug into Magnezone.
Magnezone lost 6% of its health.
Magnezone used Flash Cannon.
The substitute took damage for Garchomp!
Garchomp's substitute faded!
Garchomp used Substitute.
Garchomp lost 25% of its health.
Garchomp made a substitute!
The sandstorm rages.
---
Magnezone used Flash Cannon.
The substitute took damage for Garchomp!
Garchomp's substitute faded!
Garchomp used Substitute.
Garchomp lost 25% of its health.
Garchomp made a substitute!
The sandstorm rages.
Garchomp's Salac Berry raised its speed!
---
Garchomp used Earthquake.
It's super effective!
Magnezone lost 88% of its health.
Havak's Magnezone fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
Havak switched in Garchomp (lvl 100 Garchomp ?).
Pointed stones dug into Garchomp.
Garchomp lost 6% of its health.
Garchomp used Dragon Claw.
It's super effective!
Garchomp lost 94% of its health.
Havak's Garchomp fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
Havak switched in Scizor (lvl 100 Scizor ?).
Pointed stones dug into Scizor.
Scizor lost 12% of its health.
-FREE GARCHOMP-: argh
Scizor used Bullet Punch.
Scizor's attack missed!
Garchomp used Earthquake.
Scizor lost 88% of its health.
Havak's Scizor fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
-FREE GARCHOMP-: '_'
Havak switched in Latias (lvl 100 Latias ?).
Pointed stones dug into Latias.
Latias lost 12% of its health.
Garchomp used Dragon Claw.
It's super effective!
Latias lost 88% of its health.
Havak's Latias fainted.
-FREE GARCHOMP- wins!
I find Manaphy is pretty much deadweight in my team, it's not doing much and getting hit hard by garchomp and I've seen latias tricking it over choice scarf's which doesnt help >>. However Latias is doing well, getting on top of chomp most of the time while its stuck on outrage, no blissey as I've notced so nothings taking draco Meteor with ease. ;P
we could go to a stage 3 for just these two but i dont think it would be entirely necessary since if manaphy even were still a suspect it would show eventually when we placed it in standard along with latias
another round at least
only if all of those suspects were also voted ou in the preceding round.
bingo. i raised this concern repeatedly when arguing that we should honor a simple majority, but more of us seem to think this is the lesser of two evils when compared to the possibility that garchomp might not uber unless more than 50% of the testers think so twice in a row
it's an interesting point, i dont know why heart swap hasn't yet been fixed so you will have to ask colin and doug. ideally it would have been corrected by now, essentially i agree with you completely and will raise the question again
So now I've played many battles on suspect ladder and have tested Garchomp, Manaphy and Latias.
And now here are my experiences:
Garchomp was a big problem for my team at the begining playing suspect ladder. But now it isn't a soo big problem. Jolteon with Hidden Power Ice OHKO - 2 HKO most of Garchomps sets, only the Scarfset is faster than Jolteon and can OHKO with Earthquake. Also Choice Band Scizor is a good Pokemon against Garchomp.
Bullet Punch make 2 HKOs on every Garchomp. Most players think, that Earthquake OHKO full KP Scizor but there were wrong. Even my Scizor losted 30-40 % Garchomp losted 45-55% of its health. Bullet Punch is a prio move so we begin again and Garchomp is killed.
Otherwise Garchomp with Yache Berry makes big problems, Jolteon couldn't counter Garchomp and Garchomps Earthquake make an OHKO on Jolteon.
Latias also isn't a big problem in OU I think. There are many U-Turn users on suspect ladder (Scizor, Gliscor for example). They often make big problems on Latias. Also Jolteon is a good Pokemon to kill 40 % Latias with Shadow Ball / Signal Beam.
Tyranitar is also a good sweeper against Latias. Surf don't make so much damage. Crunch make an OHKO on Latias. Pursuit often make an OHKO too, otherwise it makes 65 - 80 % damage.
Manaphy is on the first look a nice Pokemon. It has a good Boostmove (Tail Glow), good stats (all 100 Base) but Manaphy has also big problems in suspect like Latias. Most Thunderbolts by Jolteon, Latias, Rotom often make an OHKO.
On the other side Manaphy with Energy Ball is a good sweeper againt Swampert. Full HP Manaphy could also be a nice pokemon against Garchomp. Garchomps Outrage don't OHKO Manaphy but Manaphys Ice Beam OHKOs Garchomp.
So in my opinion I'll say Garchomp don't go to OU. Latias is an OU Pokemon and Manaphy is also an OU Pokemon like Latias.
And now here are my experiences:
Garchomp was a big problem for my team at the begining playing suspect ladder. But now it isn't a soo big problem. Jolteon with Hidden Power Ice OHKO - 2 HKO most of Garchomps sets, only the Scarfset is faster than Jolteon and can OHKO with Earthquake. Also Choice Band Scizor is a good Pokemon against Garchomp.
Bullet Punch make 2 HKOs on every Garchomp. Most players think, that Earthquake OHKO full KP Scizor but there were wrong. Even my Scizor losted 30-40 % Garchomp losted 45-55% of its health. Bullet Punch is a prio move so we begin again and Garchomp is killed.
Otherwise Garchomp with Yache Berry makes big problems, Jolteon couldn't counter Garchomp and Garchomps Earthquake make an OHKO on Jolteon.
Latias also isn't a big problem in OU I think. There are many U-Turn users on suspect ladder (Scizor, Gliscor for example). They often make big problems on Latias. Also Jolteon is a good Pokemon to kill 40 % Latias with Shadow Ball / Signal Beam.
Tyranitar is also a good sweeper against Latias. Surf don't make so much damage. Crunch make an OHKO on Latias. Pursuit often make an OHKO too, otherwise it makes 65 - 80 % damage.
Manaphy is on the first look a nice Pokemon. It has a good Boostmove (Tail Glow), good stats (all 100 Base) but Manaphy has also big problems in suspect like Latias. Most Thunderbolts by Jolteon, Latias, Rotom often make an OHKO.
On the other side Manaphy with Energy Ball is a good sweeper againt Swampert. Full HP Manaphy could also be a nice pokemon against Garchomp. Garchomps Outrage don't OHKO Manaphy but Manaphys Ice Beam OHKOs Garchomp.
So in my opinion I'll say Garchomp don't go to OU. Latias is an OU Pokemon and Manaphy is also an OU Pokemon like Latias.
I've noticed that while Garchomp is very powerful and easily a top tier contender, it has a lot more checks than last time....or at least it SHOULD have a lot more checks than last time, but the almost omnipresent sandstorm makes the Sub-Salac set a real bitch to take down. Even revenge killers like Scizor and Lucario(eh) are not guaranteed to end the sweep, and teams designed solely around setting up Sub-Salac Garchomp seem to be the superior ones at the present.
On the flip side, Manaphy is almost a joke out there. I have yet to see one utilize hydration, possibly due to the offensive shift in platinum. With only 100 base speed Manaphy is too vulnerable to things like Specs Jolteon and Latias, who are not only able to switch in but also deliver the finishing blow. Maybe a good rain dance team that uses Manaphy as a tank instead of a sweeper will prove more effective, but until I face one I can't say.
Latias barely needs comment seeing as so many things check it, but I'll throw one in for good measure. Besides being Pursuit bait, Latias is very easily revenged by Scizor walled by Blissey and TTar, some of the most prevalent threats in OU. Sure, a Specs Draco Meteor hurts almost anything but after that its only a matter of switching in Scizor/TTar/Metagross(I suppose you could use pursuit with metagross) and taking the dragon out in 1 hit. A good pokemon yes, and uber pokemon no.
Just my 2 cents.
On the flip side, Manaphy is almost a joke out there. I have yet to see one utilize hydration, possibly due to the offensive shift in platinum. With only 100 base speed Manaphy is too vulnerable to things like Specs Jolteon and Latias, who are not only able to switch in but also deliver the finishing blow. Maybe a good rain dance team that uses Manaphy as a tank instead of a sweeper will prove more effective, but until I face one I can't say.
Latias barely needs comment seeing as so many things check it, but I'll throw one in for good measure. Besides being Pursuit bait, Latias is very easily revenged by Scizor walled by Blissey and TTar, some of the most prevalent threats in OU. Sure, a Specs Draco Meteor hurts almost anything but after that its only a matter of switching in Scizor/TTar/Metagross(I suppose you could use pursuit with metagross) and taking the dragon out in 1 hit. A good pokemon yes, and uber pokemon no.
Just my 2 cents.
I have to agree that Manaphy isn't as threatening as I thought it would be. Latias takes care of it with T-bolt.
Also, bullet punching scizor is everywhere. Especially since it 2HKOs Chomp. However, I did notice a Mamoswine(Swine Flu) on a team and it was pretty predictable and easily taken down since all it does is ice shard and scare away chomp.
Also, bullet punching scizor is everywhere. Especially since it 2HKOs Chomp. However, I did notice a Mamoswine(Swine Flu) on a team and it was pretty predictable and easily taken down since all it does is ice shard and scare away chomp.
You are right! Scarf Leads are very good on the suspect ladder.
Imo Scarf Tyraintar is the beste Scarflead.
It is the best counter againt Azelf imo.
I've actually been using Mamoswine with very positive results thus far. Using EQ when there's a predicted Ice Shard can get you some nice KO's.
ie.
Y switched in Garchomp (lvl 100 Garchomp ♂).
Garchomp used Dragon Claw.
Azelf lost 0% of its health.
X's Azelf fainted.
X switched in Mamoswine (lvl 100 Mamoswine ♂).
Y switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ♂).
Mamoswine used Earthquake.
It's super effective!
A critical hit!
Heatran lost 100% of its health.
Y's Heatran fainted.
Manaphy stills sucks. Garchomp is a little too good imo. Latias is performing about as well as it does in standard.
I've been having the same success with Weavile and Low Kick. I'm using an Aerodactyl lead to try and keep SR off the field. It's awesome when Scizor switches into Low Kick and takes about 50% damage. It makes it easier for Garchomp to sweep.
Manaphy is still letting me down even though it was it suspect I really wanted to try out (it's so darn cute). It might just be because of Garchomp running around.
My thoughts so far:
Garchomp - Uber
Latias - OU
Manaphy - on the fence. I'm not sure if it's performing badly because of the suspect test or not. It'll definitely need to be tested again if it does get voted OU.
Yeah I thought Manaphy was pretty decent when it was tested in solitude, I used a LO Tail Glow +3 attack set to pretty decent success. I wasn't sweeping teams with it but it got a ko here and there. Now it can't really seem to do anything with Latias and Garchomp running around.
I don't really like the effect Latias has had on standard but I wouldn't consider it Uber. Garchomp I am iffy about, I am leaning more towards Uber the more I ladder.
Garchomp - Uber
Even when my first thought when creating my Suspect team was how to counter Chomp, I STILL have a lot of trouble with Scarf and SD varieties, especially Sub/SD sets. If it is this hard to counter GChomp in a metagame centralized around him, I don't want to see him in OU.
Manaphy - Needs Further Testing with GChomp Absent
With GChomp so omnipresent, TTar is easily in the top 5 most used pokes in Suspect, as a result of the SS produced, activating Sand Veil, which makes GChomp a huge threat. As a result of instant SS, HydraRest Manaphy is next to useless, which as far as I saw it, was one of the main reasons that it was made Uber for.
Latias - OU
One of the biggest complaints I've heard about Latias is that there is no 100% counter, but when you think about it, that is hardly much of an argument, considering MANY threats have no 100% counter, and require more than 1 poke or knowledge of it's set to take it down, Salamence comes to mind, with MixMence, SpecsMence, and DDMence sets, each needing respective counters. Another complaint I've heard is that it is over centralizing, but I haven't seen a single huge change in the metagame as a result of it, maybe the biggest being the rise of CBTar and ScarfRotom? I argue that Scizor is a much more centralizing poke as it alone is responsible for the death of frail sweepers such as Porygon-Z and Gengar, and is the sole reason for the current Bulky Offensive dominated metagame.
Just my thoughts.
Even when my first thought when creating my Suspect team was how to counter Chomp, I STILL have a lot of trouble with Scarf and SD varieties, especially Sub/SD sets. If it is this hard to counter GChomp in a metagame centralized around him, I don't want to see him in OU.
Manaphy - Needs Further Testing with GChomp Absent
With GChomp so omnipresent, TTar is easily in the top 5 most used pokes in Suspect, as a result of the SS produced, activating Sand Veil, which makes GChomp a huge threat. As a result of instant SS, HydraRest Manaphy is next to useless, which as far as I saw it, was one of the main reasons that it was made Uber for.
Latias - OU
One of the biggest complaints I've heard about Latias is that there is no 100% counter, but when you think about it, that is hardly much of an argument, considering MANY threats have no 100% counter, and require more than 1 poke or knowledge of it's set to take it down, Salamence comes to mind, with MixMence, SpecsMence, and DDMence sets, each needing respective counters. Another complaint I've heard is that it is over centralizing, but I haven't seen a single huge change in the metagame as a result of it, maybe the biggest being the rise of CBTar and ScarfRotom? I argue that Scizor is a much more centralizing poke as it alone is responsible for the death of frail sweepers such as Porygon-Z and Gengar, and is the sole reason for the current Bulky Offensive dominated metagame.
Just my thoughts.
I disagree with many of the people here saying Garchomp is rather average or underwhelming in terms of performance in the suspect ladder. This is how it is at the moment. Everyone has a Garchomp and everyone also has Garchomp checks and steels packed into their teams so they can kill off Garchomps. This is centralization. Without doing so, Garchomp would thrive and this was also one of he main reasons why it was banned in the first place imo. Sand veil, SD+outrage, unique speed, etc and whatever, makes Garchomp too powerful for people to always consider steels and chomp checks
Underwhelming is a relative term. For something declared uber the only time I have seen it be a massive problem is multiple misses in sand veil. Now having faced a fair number of subsalacs in sand I'm a bit more convinced of it being uber. Too much rng for something that strong. Though I still think latias should go with him. Until suspect I don't think I have ever seen cm/sub/twave latias and it gets really infuriating. The opponents must simply be better than the level I'm used to on standard ladder(1400).
lol today i used a scarf golduck today and it did a lot better then expected it to do ut its pretty sweet cuz it definitely takes care of some uglys tht are garchomp and ttar i kind of hope that latias gets made uber and garchomp becomes OU not that its gonna happen cuz the two of them fall in their current places pretty well but i hope that manaphy becomes OU
I've been using this Manaphy:
@Damp Rock
240 HP/232 Def/36 Spe Bold
-Surf
-Rain Dance
-Rest
-Calm Mind
This thing seems to be sweeping pretty well, because it can easily find room for setup (bullet punches, scarfed weaker attacks, etc.). This Manaphy is certainly capable of taking down something with it 90% of the time, just because it is so hard to KO after even 1 calm mind, while rain boosted surfs hurt even resists. Of course, like other sweepers (Salamence, Gyarados), this guy needs a bunch of team support. Right now, I have toxic spikes for bulky waters (Vaporeon), a TTar lure (Scarf Latias), an LODugtrio, and 36 speed to outrun TTar on Manaphy. Basically, while this guy can sweep pretty well with relatively few safe counters for him, he requires a bunch of team support, which could detract from being able to take down other stuff (although, Duggy+Latias+Toxic Spikes+Forry sure can handle a lot). I only see this guy being more effective when Garchomp is booted off to Uber (which I'm sure he will) and takes with him half of TTars. When sandstormers are gone, this guy might be too good for OU.
tl;dr: Sweeps very well given team support, interested to see what happens when there is not as much sandstorm flying around (probably not "bad" enough for OU).
Garchomp: Uber- do you see the centralization this guy is causing?
Latias: OU- seriously, she isn't too good for OU, given the past 3 months.
240 HP/232 Def/36 Spe Bold
-Surf
-Rain Dance
-Rest
-Calm Mind
This thing seems to be sweeping pretty well, because it can easily find room for setup (bullet punches, scarfed weaker attacks, etc.). This Manaphy is certainly capable of taking down something with it 90% of the time, just because it is so hard to KO after even 1 calm mind, while rain boosted surfs hurt even resists. Of course, like other sweepers (Salamence, Gyarados), this guy needs a bunch of team support. Right now, I have toxic spikes for bulky waters (Vaporeon), a TTar lure (Scarf Latias), an LODugtrio, and 36 speed to outrun TTar on Manaphy. Basically, while this guy can sweep pretty well with relatively few safe counters for him, he requires a bunch of team support, which could detract from being able to take down other stuff (although, Duggy+Latias+Toxic Spikes+Forry sure can handle a lot). I only see this guy being more effective when Garchomp is booted off to Uber (which I'm sure he will) and takes with him half of TTars. When sandstormers are gone, this guy might be too good for OU.
tl;dr: Sweeps very well given team support, interested to see what happens when there is not as much sandstorm flying around (probably not "bad" enough for OU).
Garchomp: Uber- do you see the centralization this guy is causing?
Latias: OU- seriously, she isn't too good for OU, given the past 3 months.
Wow teams have multiple Garchomp checks? In Ou i always have multiple Scizor checks. IMO neither are uber. and for the people sahing Manaphy can't be tested "properly with Garchomp and Latias, then you should just vote t as OU seeing as Latias will be OU, and Chomp will be close. Besides, Tyranitar is still pretty popular on standard.
In a suspect test revolving around a Pokemon that has been banned, wouldn't you expect to see teams that counter the main Pokemon for which to be tested? I mean it's really just common sense. The most basic way to win in any given metagame is to counter it (anti-metagame team). So saying that Garchomp is Uber just based on how people are attempting to counter it is totally moot.