CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 8 - Counters Discussion

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CAP10 don't need any "hard" counters, just a good amount of "soft" counters and/or checks will do nicely. BTW, DrKSlay I was doing something similar to what you're doing several post above. Are you planning on doing calculations of every OU pokemon or just those you think would make good counters/checks?

Objection said:
Here's a novel idea: a process.

  • Devise a generic CAP10 moveset using four attacks we can assume CAP10 will get (I'm gonna say that Surf/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Hidden Power is a good generic moveset that uses four attacks)
  • Identify a pokemon X that counters this moveset.
  • Do we want pokemon X to always counter CAP10? Y/N
  • If Y, do not give CAP10 any moves that can 2HKO or cripple pokemon X
  • If N, give CAP10 a move that can 2HKO or cripple pokemon X
  • Identify a pokemon P that counters the generic moveset or a moveset with any of the new moves
  • Do we want pokemon P to always counter CAP10? Y/N
  • etc.
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Not really a novel idea, more like a sensible one. We need some kind of moveset or a sample movepool to mold our though upon to make discussions more straight forward. I had plans on doing damage calculations of every OU Pokemon to see what would countered a set like the one above, but DrKSlay probably do a better job of that than me.
 
Gothic Togekiss said:
CAP10 don't need any "hard" counters, just a good amount of "soft" counters and/or checks will do nicely. BTW, DrKSlay I was doing something similar to what you're doing several post above. Are you planning on doing calculations of every OU pokemon or just those you think would make good counters/checks?
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If I have time, I will try and do every OU Poke. I will place an emphasis on Pokemon that have a chance to threaten CAP10, though.

And I completely agree with your first statement. I believe there are plenty of Pokemon that already can counter CAP10 well enough as well. There is absolutely no need to add to this list by not allowing or not assuming certain moves, like Cross Chop or Superpower.
 
I define soft counter as something that can, in general, either:

1) Switch in on resisted moves which are very common (usually STAB or natural coverage to STAB) AND strike back neutrally. This is a defensive soft counter.

or

2) Switch in on common moves neutrally and strike back super effectively. This is an offensive soft counter.

Of course there are some Pokemon, like Blissey, who soft counter all special attackers

A hard counter can combine the best of both of those and since CAP10 is designed to be able to counter anything really, a hard counter will be hard to come by.


Given my definitions, nothing can really be a defensive soft counter other than generally bulky Pokemon. The problem is that nothing resists both STAB and is neutral to Ice which is all but guaranteed coverage. Of course things like Blissey and Snorlax will wall any Special oriented CAP10 and without Volt Tackle, CAP10 will only have Waterfall, Thunder Punch and maybe Ice Punch as potential physical options which aren't that threatening either.


That being said, I feel we should focus more on offensive counters. Latias makes a good choice, if it stays OU, as it is bulky enough to take an unboosted Ice Beam and has a few options to switch into, like both STAB types. Celebi is in a similar position as is Swampert.

Some unconventional ideas, such as Ludicolo and Kingdra can work well too, but are more offensively oriented. With Swift Swim, they can outspeed and threaten CAP10 with powerful Grass or Dragon moves.


I think another good place to look at is synergies. If CAP10 is a utility counter, who will it be countering? Scizor? Salamence? Gyarados? How can we take advantage of the fact that most CAP10 will be running similar countering sets?
 
Thunderbolt/Surf/Ice Beam/HP Grass or Superpower has the ability to hit the entire metagame for a 2hko, with the exception of Swampert, Blissey, Latias, Snorlax, and very specially defensive Roserade/Shaymin/Celebi (tell me if I am missing someone here), with Swampert being removed with HP Grass, and Blissey, Snorlax being removed with Superpower. Also, the grasses have to be well-invested in SpD to not be 2hkod by Ice Beam coming in. It appears that we have created a very good sweeper where a utility counter was supposed to be.
 
Anachronism said:
Thunderbolt/Surf/Ice Beam/HP Grass or Superpower has the ability to hit the entire metagame for a 2hko, with the exception of Swampert, Blissey, Latias, Snorlax, and very specially defensive Roserade/Shaymin/Celebi (tell me if I am missing someone here), with Swampert being removed with HP Grass, and Blissey, Snorlax being removed with Superpower. Also, the grasses have to be well-invested in SpD to not be 2hkod by Ice Beam coming in. It appears that we have created a very good sweeper where a utility counter was supposed to be.
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With what EVs/Nature? Even Magic Guard + Life Orb does not lead me to believe this will operate well mixed. You also need five attacks to pull this off. Without Superpower you have no chance of dealing with Blissey, and even with I'd need to see how much Attack EVs you put into it because of Superpower's attack drop.

Obviously these are not rolling 2HKO's, and your scenario requires perfect prediction. With perfect prediction and two super-effective, boosted attacks almost anything can 2HKO the entire metagame in a sweeping fashion. Did you also account for Superpower's Attack drop? That is very important point which I think you overlooked.

Every pokemon is a sweeper when their opponents switch exclusively into their super-effective, boosted attacks. That doesn't happen in battles as a practical matter.
 
I'd just like to say that I'm very impressed with how this thread is moving along, and this is exactly the sort of discussion I was looking for.

From looking at this thread, I've come to the conclusion along with many others that the main issue here is one of balance in terms of giving this Pokemon the right tools for the job, but not too many tools. I disagree with some people who say that we need to be able to handle a variety of defensive threats as well. As I said in the OP, walls aren't countered, but broken. We don't want to tailor this to be able to break walls, and for this reason, it's important that we pinpoint Pokemon that are defensive to the point where to tailor CAP10 to beat it is a contrived attempt at getting us to potentially beat EVERYTHING. It's important to remember that many defensive threats are actually somewhat offensive in nature in the way they put pressure on things. For example, you have Calm Minders like Suicune and Jirachi (IMO, Cursers are generally unpopular and the ones that are used are defensive to the point where it's impractical to try to stop them), status and Substitute abusers like Heatran, Zapdos and Rotom-a that can grab momentum and significantly threaten a good portion of your team. These are things I would like to be able to respond to, not tanks and walls who exist to be able to take hits and not to initiate some sort of strategy. tl;dr, I would rather be tailoring this thing to stop defensive threats that initiate a strategy like Zapdos and Skarmory, rather than breaking tanks and walls like Swampert and Blissey.

Brainstorming and may come back with more.
 
Deck Knight said:
With what EVs/Nature? Even Magic Guard + Life Orb does not lead me to believe this will operate well mixed. You also need five attacks to pull this off. Without Superpower you have no chance of dealing with Blissey, and even with I'd need to see how much Attack EVs you put into it because of Superpower's attack drop.

Obviously these are not rolling 2HKO's, and your scenario requires perfect prediction. With perfect prediction and two super-effective, boosted attacks almost anything can 2HKO the entire metagame in a sweeping fashion. Did you also account for Superpower's Attack drop? That is very important point which I think you overlooked.

Every pokemon is a sweeper when their opponents switch exclusively into their super-effective, boosted attacks. That doesn't happen in battles as a practical matter.
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I'd wager to pull it off you can't invest much, if anything, in speed. I'd be quite shocked if a base 84 attack could 2HKO even Blissey with only LO and unSTAB Superpower and no EVs.
 
I agree with Beej. Defensive Pokemon play a big role in current OU teams, especially those that run Spikes Offense, SemiStall, or use Defensive Pokemon to force a threat out so a team can sweep easier. If CAP10 can neutralize these threats, whole teams can be effectively neutralized as a result. I think that CAP10 needs to be able to play a variety roles based off of the job that CAP10 is given by its user. As such, it needs great diversity all around to accomplish this.
 
I think that, yes, attacking movepool is certainly a big factor in CAP10's countering potential, but also (and I think slightly more important) is what CAP10 is given to heal. Granted, odds are it's getting Rest, but that usually means pairing it with Sleep Talk, impairing it's coverage. If Wish/Protect runs into the same type of problem, but less situational. However, if CAP10 ends up getting reliable recovery as well as the usual stall movepool (namely, Toxic/WoW), it will be able to 'counter' other walls (which has been determined is not desirable) by consistently winning stall wars with other walls (due to it's high speed and Magic Guard; even more so if it gets Taunt), while still maintaining the durability (again, using said recovery move) to wear down more offensive threats as well, and either finishing it off or leaving it within KO range of a teammate. In short, reliable recovery will be tempting, but depending on CAP10's attacking movepool, it might prove to be excessive.
 
gamer_reloaded said:
I think that, yes, attacking movepool is certainly a big factor in CAP10's countering potential, but also (and I think slightly more important) is what CAP10 is given to heal. Granted, odds are it's getting Rest, but that usually means pairing it with Sleep Talk, impairing it's coverage. If Wish/Protect runs into the same type of problem, but less situational. However, if CAP10 ends up getting reliable recovery as well as the usual stall movepool (namely, Toxic/WoW), it will be able to 'counter' other walls (which has been determined is not desirable) by consistently winning stall wars with other walls (due to it's high speed and Magic Guard; even more so if it gets Taunt), while still maintaining the durability (again, using said recovery move) to wear down more offensive threats as well, and either finishing it off or leaving it within KO range of a teammate. In short, reliable recovery will be tempting, but depending on CAP10's attacking movepool, it might prove to be excessive.
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Giving it reliable recovery, coupled with toxic/wow, and already having "usable" defenses and high HP will risk CAP10 becoming a stall/wall/counter wall. This seems counter to the design intent of customization to counter certain threats, as most pokes with similar movesets tend to counter or stall a variety of threats instead of just a few (all physical attackers vs. just Gyarados & Salamence, as an example). Having said that, I think that giving CAP10 reliable recovery and other stall encouraging moves may be too much, regardless of the rest of its movepool.

To take this point a little further, would status inducing moves in general (hypnosis, thunder wave, wow, etc.) be too much utility for CAP10?
 
Zaq said:
Giving it reliable recovery, coupled with toxic/wow, and already having "usable" defenses and high HP will risk CAP10 becoming a stall/wall/counter wall. This seems counter to the design intent of customization to counter certain threats, as most pokes with similar movesets tend to counter or stall a variety of threats instead of just a few (all physical attackers vs. just Gyarados & Salamence, as an example). Having said that, I think that giving CAP10 reliable recovery and other stall encouraging moves may be too much, regardless of the rest of its movepool.

To take this point a little further, would status inducing moves in general (hypnosis, thunder wave, wow, etc.) be too much utility for CAP10?
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But wouldn't NOT having some sort of recovery hamper its ability to reliably counter anything? I was just trying to convey that the balance on what that should be and still keep CAP10 from being overpowered is very delicate. As far as status moves, EVERYTHING gets Toxic, so even if it gets nothing else (Thunder Wave wouldn't be unreasonable either), there's always the possibility of abusing its bulk for stalling purposes.
 
I think what's most important isn't stopping CAP10 from being able to be a generic wall or generic sweeper. What's most important is that being a utility counter is what CAP10 does best. If CAP10 does anything better than fulfilling its own concept, then imo that means we've failed.
 
Well, Already Latias and Tyranitar are capable of putting huge dents into this CAP. Any other suggestions? People have said Ludicolo, Lanturn and Snorlax are also decent, broad checks for this CAP but I've yet to hear of anything solid so far.

If CAP10 runs Trace, then Blissey is a deadly opponent even if the CAP is physically based and has a 120 Base power fighting move. (Which is doubtful if it's running Trace).

I see SD Lucario presenting a challenge (But then again, what doesn't Lucario challenge?).

A Specially Defensive Celebi can also hurt Trace CAP10. Leech Seed and Thunder Wave truly hurt CAP10. Infact, anything using a Paralyze attack will chase CAP10 off.

CAP10 is coming along just fine I believe. It's weaknesses and strengths already greatly depend on it's current ability, stat distribution and moveset (Something we are assuming is quite bland with few exotic attacks or support moves)
 
For the recovery, I'd think Aqua Ring seems like a way out if Recover is too powerful and no such move is too weak. Plus, a (rather difficult) double switch into, let's say. Kecleon, or even Slaking, screws it over if it runs Trace (as such a well-predicted switch ALWAYS cripples Trace users).

On a side note, I think this CAP is highly vulnerable to Toxic poisons, since it relies on surviving switch-ins.
 
LightningLord2 said:
For the recovery, I'd think Aqua Ring seems like a way out if Recover is too powerful and no such move is too weak. Plus, a (rather difficult) double switch into, let's say. Kecleon, or even Slaking, screws it over if it runs Trace (as such a well-predicted switch ALWAYS cripples Trace users).

On a side note, I think this CAP is highly vulnerable to Toxic poisons, since it relies on surviving switch-ins.
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Magic Guard makes toxic poison a benefit as it blocks other status.
 
Yay! Calculation time. Looks like I can't edit my original post and add a Hide section, so here we go. If you are wondering about which moveset and spread I used, refer to my original post please. This list contains Pokemon found in the OU metagame and some of the BL metagame, offensive calculations for almost all sets, and some defensive calculations for Defensive/Sp. Defensive sets when needed.


KEY:
BOLD means which set works best.
UNDERLINEmeans it is the best choice out of two due to moveset uncertainty.
ALL SETS means Physical, Special, and the appropriate Defensive set.

Abomasnow: Best Handled By: SPECIAL

CAP10's HP Fire: 105.9% - 124.6%
CAP10's Ice Beam: 35.5% - 42.1% (almost always a 2HKO after SR)

Notes: With HP Fire, Abomasnow is no threat to CAP10 whatsoever. Without it, it still has to watch out switching into an Ice Beam, or else it can be 2HKO'd by SR and another Ice Beam. However, it's a fairly safe switch-in sans HP Fire and can hit hard with Wood Hammer, which not a whole lot of Pokemon can talk about verses CAP10. Verdict: Soft Check without HP Fire, not a threat with HP Fire.

Aerodactyl: Best Handled By: ALL SETS

No offensive calculations are needed. We know it can dent Aero.

Aero's EQ vs Physical/Special: 55.1% - 65% (2HKO)
Aero's EQ vs Defensive: 32.8% - 38.7% (3HKO, 4HKO with Lefties)

Notes: Unless CAP10 is used as a lead or SR isn't up, don't expect Focus Sash to be still intact.

Azelf: Best Handled By: ALL SETS (Special does most damage)

Special CAP10's Surf/TBolt: 68.8% - 81.2%
Physical CAP10's Waterfall: 57.9% - 68.2%

Blissey: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL

CAP10's Superpower: 76.4% - 90.1% (unable to OHKO most of the time with SR down. Cannot 2HKO after the -1 Attack drop if Wish/Protect or Softboiled on the attacking turn.)

Notes: Unimpressive, to say the least. However, this can be addressed by simply giving CAP10 Cross Chop over Superpower. This will always 2HKO Blissey. Blissey should not be a complete counter to every single CAP10 moveset at all. If not, CAP10 cannot take on full health Blissey on its own. Thus, it cannot fulfill its role as a Utility Counter. Verdict: Counter to all sets if Superpower is chosen, Counter to only Special sets if Cross Chop is available for the Physical set.

Breloom: Best Handled By: SPECIAL

CAP10's Ice Beam: 110.6% - 130.4%
CAP10's HP Flying: 162.6% - 191.9%

Notes: There is no way, no how, that Breloom is even a check to CAP10 unless CAP10 switches directly into one. Which should never happen in the first place. Verdict: No threat to CAP10.

Bronzong: Best Handled By: DEFENSIVE

No calculations from either side here. Just notes on what will happen.

Notes: I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Bronzong will be the ultimate draw to CAP10. CAP10 can't do anything to Bronzong on the attacking spectrum. Not even Fire Blast can 3HKO it. However, thanks to Trace and Defensive investment, the standard Bronzong can't do anything in return. Those who run EQ and Gyro Ball are pretty much useless, as CAP10 Traces Levitate and 4x resists Gyro Ball. If it carries Explosion, both Pokes die without much gain or loss on either side, except perhaps SR for your opponent's Bronzong. The only thing CAP10 has to fear here is a possible Hypnosis, and this is only threatening if your opponent hasn't put another one of your Pokes to sleep or, you know, actually has it on its moveset. Verdict: Draw on both sides. Neither can do anything worthwhile to each other.

Celebi: Best Handled By: ALL SETS (perhaps PHYSICAL)

Special CAP10's Ice Beam vs. Defensive Celebi: 49.5% - 58.4% (2HKO)
Special CAP10's HP Bug vs. Defensive Celebi: 73.3% - 87.1%
Special CAP10's HP Bug vs. Offensive (Specs) Celebi: 86.5% - 102.9% (OHKO most times after Rocks)
Physical CAP10's X-Scissor vs. Defensive Celebi: 62.4% - 74.3% (theoretical)
Physical CAP10's X-Scissor vs. Offensive (Specs) Celebi: 99.4% - 118.1% (theoretical)
Defensive Celebi's Leaf Storm vs. Special CAP10: 87.1% - 102.9%
Defensive Celebi's Leaf Storm vs. Sp. Defensive CAP10: 52.2% - 61.7%, 26.5% - 31.2% (3HKO)

Notes: CAP10 has a lot of potential sets it can run, so there's a lot of calculations I did. Basically, it boils down to this: CAP10 can beat almost every Celebi. With a Bug move, it gets even easier. Celebi cannot easily switch into CAP10 for fear of Ice Beam, which 2HKO's after Rocks. HP Bug also 2HKO's Celebi after Rocks, and OHKO's Offensive Celebi after Rocks. Another useful thing: Scarf Celebi does not OHKO CAP10 with Leaf Storm. X-Scissor may be chosen for this very reason, scoring the same KO's for a Physical set. However, like Abomasnow, it can switch in on CAP10's STABs and hit back hard. Verdict: Celebi is just a check to CAP10, due to Ice Beam and a possible Bug move.

Cresselia: Best Handled By: (SP.) DEFENSIVE

No calculations here. Both can't do jack to each other with the standard movesets.

Notes: This is similar to the Bronzong situation, although Cresselia is a little bit more dangerous. I would say that Cresselia is more of a check to CAP10 than a draw, like Bronzong, thanks to common movesets that include Reflect and TWave, as well as the increased possibility of Charge Beam or Calm Mind sets. Taunt/Encore would shut her down, though, which is a possibility. Verdict: Good Check to CAP10overall.e3
Dragonite: Best Handled By: DEFENSIVE

CAP10's Ice Beam vs. BulkyDDNite (Lefties): 62.3% - 73.9%
CAP10's Ice Beam vs. BulkyDDNite (Expert Belt): 74.7% - 88.7% (OHKO after Rocks)
DDNite's +1 EQ vs. CAP10: 56.5% - 66.8% (2HKO)

Dusknoir: Best Handled By: DEFENSIVE

Dusknoir's EQ vs. CAP10: 25.7% - 30.4%

Notes: HALP ME! HALP ME! Because of Pain Split, Dusknoir has become one of CAP10's true counter, since my original movesets don't have any Dark or Ghost attacks in play. Without Taunt, Sub+Charge Beam, or any of these kind of moves, Dusknoir will win. Every time. While this sounds okay, we must consider whether we want something that can so easily counter every one of CAP10's assumed movesets. In my opinion, we cannot have this hard of a counter if CAP10 is going to do its job correctly. If we have something like this hard of a counter, CAP10 can simply be played around through switching. A Blissey/Dusknoir team would almost completely wall all CAP10 as well. Verdict: The way it currently stands, Dusknoir is a huge Counter. Nearly unbeatable unless we solve this through the move selection.

Electivire: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL

Physical CAP10's Earthquake: 112% - 132%
Special CAP10's Surf: 58.8% - 69.4%
Physical Electivire's EQ vs Physical/Special CAP10: 80.1% - 94.8%

Empoleon: Best Handled By: SPECIAL

CAP's Thunderbolt: 94.9% - 112.2%

Flygon: Best Handled By: SPECIAL AND DEFENSIVE

Special CAP10's Ice Beam: 157.6% - 186.8%
Defensive CAP10's Ice Beam: 121.9% - 144.4%
ScarfGon's EQ vs. Special CAP10: 79.9% - 93.9%

Forretress: Best Handled By: SPECIAL

Special CAP10's HP Fire: 125.4% - 148%
Special CAP10's Surf: 63.8% - 75.4%

Gengar: Best Handled By: SP. DEFENSIVE

CAP10's Surf(Lefties): 42.9% - 51% (2HKO after Rocks)
Gengar's Shadow Ball vs. CAP10: 29.6% - 35% (4HKO)

Gliscor: Best Handled By: SPECIAL

CAP10's Surf: 106.8% - 126% (OHKO's Yache Gliscor)
CAP10's Ice Beam: 142.4% - 168.4%

Gyarados: Best Handled By: DEFENSIVE

CAP10's ThunderBolt vs. DDGyara: 106.3% - 126.9%
CAP10's ThunderBolt vs. RestTalk Gyara: 89.6% - 106.9%

Heatran: Best Handled By: ALL SETS

Sp. Defensive CAP10's Surf: 57.6% - 68.7%
Special CAP10's Surf: 97.2% - 115.2%
Physical CAP10's Waterfall: 74.9% - 89.2%
Physical CAP10's EQ: 125.1% - 147.4%

Heracross: Best Handled By: DEFENSIVE AND SPECIAL

Special CAP10's Surf/TBolt: 51.8% - 61.1%
Special CAP10's Surf/TBolt (-1): 77.7% - 91.7%
Special CAP10's HP Flying: 102.3% - 120.9%
Defensive CAP10's Surf/TBolt (-1): 45.8% - 54.2% (2HKO after Rocks 100% of the time)
ScarfCross's Close Combat vs. Special CAP: 60.9% - 71.8%
ScarfCross's Close Combat vs. Defensive CAP: 36.4% - 42.9%

Notes: We have somewhat of a problem here, as ScarfCross can outspeed and 2HKO Special variants with Close Combat. CAP10 will have a hard time switching in because of this. The Defensive set, however, can 2HKO thanks to the Sp. Defense drops CC causes. To directly counter it with the Special set, one must either have HP Flying and not switch into a Close Combat, or have ScarfCAP10. Verdict: Somewhat of a check, or even an easy revenge killer, for the Special set.

Hippowdon: Best Handled By: SPECIAL

CAP10's Surf: 124.8% - 147.1%

Honchkrow: Best Handled By: ALL SETS

Defensive CAP10's ThunderBolt: 86.5% - 102.3% (OHKO after SR)
Special CAP10's ThunderBolt: 147.4% - 173.7%
Physical CAP10's ThunderPunch: 117.5% - 138.6%

Infernape: Best Handled By: ALL SETS

Defensive CAP10's Surf: 88.7% - 105.1% (OHKO after SR)
Special CAP10's Surf: 150.2% - 178.2%
Physical CAP10's Waterfall: 114.7% - 135.2%

Jirachi: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL

CAP10's EQ (CM Sweeper): 53% - 62.4% (2HKO)
CAP10's EQ (Wish Support): 41.4% - 48.9% (small chance of 2HKO after SR)

Notes: CM Jirachi will be the bane of Special sets. However, with Earthquake, Jirachi can be defeated. Without it, there is little to no hope except by a Critical Hit. Verdict: Counter to CAP10 if CAP10 does not receive EQ. Counter to Special sets only if CAP10 does get EQ.

Jolteon: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL

CAP10's EQ: 116.6% - 138%
SpecsJolteon's TBolt vs. Physical CAP10: 59.8% - 70.7%

Notes: Once again, we're going to need Earthquake on this one. Earth Power doesn't OHKO, and Jolteon will 2HKO you first. Special Defensive versions are 3HKO'd by TBolt, whereas their Surf cannot 2HKO. Verdict: Like Jirachi, Jolteon is a counter to all sets unless CAP10 can pack Earthquake.

Kingdra: Best Handled By: DEFENSIVE

+1 LO Kingdra Outrage vs. Defensive CAP10: 58.3% - 68.8%
+1 Lefties Kingdra Outrage vs. Defensive CAP10: 45.1% - 53%
CAP10's TBolt: 31.8% - 37.3%

Notes: Uh oh. This is not a good situation for CAP10 at all. Only the Defensive variant can survive any kind of attack Kingdra has, and if it's LO, CAP10 is 2HKO'd. Meanwhile, CAP10 can only manage a 3HKO either way, if it gets lucky. It's a 4HKO on the Lefties version. The only plausable way we can deal with this is to give it Dragon Pulse, but even then, it is not really beaten. CAP10 can at least weaken it, though. TWave might also help, but Sub variants and those with a Lum Berry can easily work around that. Verdict: Kingdra is essentially the only Dragon Dancer that is a counter to CAP10 fully. There is little to no way of stopping it with CAP10 currently.

Latias: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL

CAP10's Ice Punch: 57% - 67.5%
Offensive CM Latias' +1 Dragon Pulse: 56.9% - 67%

Notes: CAP10 cannot switch into CM Latias, unfortunately, as two +1 Dragon Pulses will 2HKO. However, if one switches into CAP10 or doesn't Calm Mind, CAP10 can beat it this way. Note that giving it Payback might be a good idea, as after Stealth Rock damage, it can essentially OHKO Latias. Ice Punch does 2HKO, though. Verdict: Like all CM'ers so far, counter to Special variants. Counter to Physical CAP10 if CAP10 switches in on a CM boost.

Lucario: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL

CAP10's EQ/Cross Chop: 100.4% - 118.1%
Lucario's +2 ExtremeSpeed vs. CAP10: 64.3% - 75.8%

Machamp: Best Handled By: SPECIAL AND DEFENSIVE

Special CAP10's Surf/Tbolt: 44.6% - 52.7%
Defensive CAP10's Surf/TBolt: 26.6% - 31.3%
Machamp's DPunch vs. Special CAP10: 52.1% - 61.6%
Machamp's DPunch vs. Defensive CAP10: 31.4% - 37%

Notes: This match-up is tricky. On the Special set, even with SR, a 2HKO is not guaranteed with Surf, and Machamp hits for a 2HKO every time. On the Defensive set, Machamp can be stalled out with Rest and continuous Surfs at least, so it's of little concern. While Magic Guard helps with Confusion damage, the Confusion will still be annoying for CAP10. I personally would support the addition of either Psychic or Air Slash on the movepool. Psychic is more or less a situational move anyway,so it's not overpowering, but Air Slash would be a good alternative over just using HP Flying for Heracross/Breloom, so it wouldn't be a bad idea either. Brave Bird on a Physical set would nearly OHKO, guaranteed if one layer of Spikes is down, which seems a little overpowered with Magic Guard. Verdict: Based off of my movesets, Machamp checks Physical and Special sets somewhat, but is no threat to the Defensive set.

Magnezone: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL

Physical CAP10's EQ: 116% - 137%
Special CAP10's Surf: 50% - 59.3%
SpecsZone's TBolt vs. Physical/Special CAP10: 74% - 87.4%

Mamoswine: Best Handled By: SPECIAL

CAP10's Surf: 125.2% - 147.9%
CSMamo's EQ: 95.3% - 112.4%

Notes: If Mamo comes in on a TBolt, Mamo can check (assuming that people will Scarf it and CAP10 isn't holding a Shuca) and essentially OHKO CAP10. However, there isn't much else Mamo can do if it isn't Scarved. Verdict: CSMamo is a check if it switches in on TBolt. Anything else is not a threat.

Metagross: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL AND SPECIAL

Physical CAP10's EQ: 46.7% - 54.9% (2HKO after Rocks)
Special CAP10's Surf/TBolt: 49.2% - 58.4%
LeadGross' EQ vs. Physical/Special CAP10: 71.3% - 84%
Agiligross' EQ vs. Physical/Special CAP10: 93% - 109.7%

Notes: This is the first time so far where CAP10 would greatly benefit from having Magnet rise in order to fully beat a threat. It's possible without it, but it sure is hard.

Ninjask: Best Handled By: ALL SETS

No calculations are needed. We know Ninjask is frail, and can't offensively do much to CAP10.

Notes: While Ninjask is usually "lol" for most people, it does bring up the fact that Ninjask might actually be able to set up on CAP10 quite easily, unless we give it something like Encore or Haze. As a Pokemon, Ninjask is no threat. As a BP machine, we need a way to stop it.

Porygon-Z: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL AND SPECIAL

Physical CAP10's Cross Chop: 91.7% - 108.3% (OHKO after SR)
Special CAP10's Surf: 60.8% - 71.7%
Timid SpecsPZ's Adaptability Tri-Attack vs. Physical/Special CAP10: 77.7% - 91.6%

Roserade: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL

Physical CAP10's Ice Punch: 98.5% - 116%
Special CAP10's Ice Beam: 73.3% - 86.3%

Notes: If Focus Sash is intact (doubtful unless CAP10 is a lead), Roserade can OHKO with Leaf Storm while surviving an attack. Other than that, not too bad. Verdict: Not a threat.

Rotom-C (and friends): Best Handled By: SPECIAL AND SP. DEFENSIVE

Special CAP10's Surf vs. Standard Rotom-C: 46.4% - 54.6% (2HKO after Rocks)
Sp. Defensive CAP10's Surf vs. Standard Rotom-C: 27.6% - 32.6%
Standard Rotom-C's Leaf Storm vs. Special CAP10: 60.9% - 71.8%
Standard Rotom-C's Leaf Storm vs. Sp. Defensive CAP10: 36% - 42.7%

Notes: The Standard Rotom-C's set is not an issue for CAP10, as it will either 2HKO Rotom first or take little to no damage from continuous Leaf Storms + Rest/Recovery. However, imagine Pain Split Rotom-C: now THAT's a threat. Luckily, Rotom isn't common in the CAP metagame, and is pretty much Pursuit bait in the OU metagame as it is, unlike the bulky Dusknoir. All other forms of Rotom pose little to no threat to CAP10. Verdict: Pain Split versions of Rotom-C will be huge checks to CAP10 itself.

Salamence: Best Handled By: DEFENSIVE

Lefties CAP10's Ice Beam (DDMence/MixMence): 95.5% - 113.6%
Lefties CAP10's Ice Beam (Bulky): 72.1% - 85.3% (OHKO most times after SR)
Salamence's EQ vs. CAP10: 49.8% - 58.9%
Salamence's Outrage vs. CAP10: 45.1% - 53%

Scizor: Best Handled By: SPECIAL

CAP10's HP Fire: 103.8% - 122.4%
CAP10's Surf/TBolt: 51.9% - 61.5%
CBScizor's U-Turn: 54.9% - 64.6%
+2 SDScizor's Bullet Punch: 20.3% - 23.9%

Shaymin: Best Handled By: SPECIAL

CAP10's Ice Beam (Support Shaymin): 49.5% - 58.4%
CAP10's Ice Beam (Sweeping Shaymin): 57.3% - 67.6%
Support Shaymin's Seed Flare vs. CAP10: 74.9% - 88.5%
Sweeping Shaymin's Seed Flare vs. CAP10: 122.3% - 144.9%

Notes: Essentially, Shaymin does a better job at checking CAP10 than Celebi. This is because of the lack of a 4x weakness and access to Seed Flare. With that being said, Support Shaymin is still defeated 100% of the time by CAP10. Seed Flare LO sets and Specs sets, though, walk all over CAP10 unless Shaymin walks right into an Ice Beam. Verdict: Offensive variants check (close to countering fully) CAP10 unless there is good prediction. Kind of excited that Shaymin might get more usage, though. Very underrated.

Skarmory: Best Handled By: SPECIAL

CAP10's ThunderBolt (Specially Defensive): 88.6% - 104.8% (OHKO after Rocks)
CAP10's ThunderBolt (All Others): 120.4% - 141.9%

Smeargle: Best Handled By: ALL SETS

No calcs needed. We know Smeargle is weak, and virtually cannot attack CAP10 directly.

Snorlax: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL

CAP10's Cross Chop vs. Curselax: 50.5% - 59.6%, 33.8% - 40.2% (possible 2HKO after Rocks)
CurseLax's +1 Return vs. CAP10: 51.7% - 61.2%

Notes: Not as bad as I thought, actually. Cross Chop guarantees a 3HKO against Curselax, and results in a 2HKO some times just by having Rocks up, preventing CurseLax from Resting on the second turn. However, CAP10 cannot beat CurseLax if it switches into a Curse. Things also get harder if CurseLax avoids the 2HKO and Rests. CAP10 cannot respond in any way if this happens Verdict: Counter to CAP10 if CAP10 switches into a Curse. However, not bad if Snorlax switches into CAP10.

Staraptor: Best Handled By: DEFENSIVE

CAP10's TBolt: 98.1% - 116%
CBStaraptor's -1 Close Combat: 23.5% - 27.9%
CSStaraptor's -1 Close Combat: 15.6% - 18.6%

Starmie: Best Handled By: SPECIAL

CAP10's ThunderBolt: 130.5% - 154.2%
SpecsStarmie's TBolt: 37.5% - 44.2%
SpecsStarrmie's Psychic: 53.5% - 63%

Suicune: Best Handled By: SPECIAL

CAP10's ThunderBolt (CroCune): 65.8% - 77.7%, 44.6% - 52.5%
Offensive Suicune's +1 HP Electric: 33.4% - 39.5%

Notes: Another one where it's much better than people anticipated. The big deal here is that CAP10 can beat Suicune, while not letting Suicune do much to it unless it carries HP Electric. However, like Snorlax, this becomes much harder if CAP10 switches into a Calm Mind + Rest version. Verdict: Soft check to CAP10 if CAP10 switches into it.

Swampert: Best Handled By: SPECIAL

CAP10's HP Grass: 80.2% - 95%
MixPert's EQ vs. CAP10: 68.2% - 80.4%

Notes: Having CAP10 use HP Grass for Swampert isn't a terrible idea. However, I feel that CAP10 shouldn't be hit so hard by a 4x weak Pokemon when it's holding a 4x weak move. Therefore, I support at least Grass Knot to be on CAP10. Verdict: Check, but it's still beaten, even with HP Grass.

Tentacruel: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL AND SPECIAL

Physical CAP10's EQ: 69.8% - 82.4%
Special CAP10's ThunderBolt: 57.7% - 68.1%

Togekiss: Best Handled By: SPECIAL AND PHYSICAL

Special CAP10's TBolt: 71.1% - 84% (OHKO after Rocks)
Physical CAP10's TPunch: 66.3% - 78.6% (slight OHKO after Rocks)

Tyranitar: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL

CAP10's Cross Chop: 113.5% - 134.5%
ScarfTar's Earthquake: 65% - 76.7%

Notes: Here's something interesting: a DDTar, at +1, shouldn't outspeed CAP10. That means CAP10 can OHKO with Cross Chop without having to worry about taking damage. However, this also pretty much solidifies the "4x rule" I have, making a Fighting move essential on CAP10. Verdict: With a Fighting move, TTar is no threat to CAP10.

Vaporeon: Best Handled By: SPECIAL

CAP10's ThunderBolt: 69.6% - 82.1%

Weavile: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL AND SPECIAL

We know Cross Chop will OHKO.
Physical CAP10's Waterfall: 62.2% - 73.5%
Special CAP10's Surf: 58.8% - 69.4%

Yanmega: Best Handled By: ALL SETS

Special CAP10's ThunderBolt: 151.4% - 178.9%
Physical CAP10's TPunch: 75.4% - 90.1%
Sp. Defensive CAP10's ThunderBolt: 90.1% - 106.1%

Zapdos: Best Handled By: SPECIAL

CAP10's Ice Beam (P. Defensive): 56.4% - 66.8%
CAP10's Ice Beam (SubRoost): 47% - 55.4%
CAP10's Ice Beam (Sp. Defensive): 41.3% - 48.6%
Offensive Zapdos' TBolt: 56.9% - 67%

Notes: Not as bad as we thought, as long as we have Ice Beam. All of these calculations against Zapdos are 2HKO's with Rocks down. Surf/TBolt + Ice Beam on all sets minus Specially Defensive will 2HKO, meaning Zapdos can't switch in. The only way Zapdos will do anything is if CAP10 switches into an offensive TBolt or into a Zapdos who has used Substitute. Verdict: Easily beatable with Ice Beam. Only a check when under a Sub or if CAP10 switches into a TBolt on Offensive versions.

Phew! That took a lot of work. Now, for my wrap-up and final comments:

- Calm Mind boosters, like Cresselia, Latias, and Jirachi, will virtually get free set-up on all Special versions of CAP10. This is most likely the most troubling news, since no team wants to face a +anything Latias or Jirachi.

- The biggest threats to CAP10: Cresselia, Dusknoir, Latias, Shaymin, Jirachi, and Kingdra. Minor threats include Bronzong, Machamp, Abomasnow, Celebi, Snorlax, and Rotom-C.

- Some of my opinions on moves. Kind of poll jumping, but it's important for the discussion of possible counters:

1. Hydro Pump is not necessary. Surf nails every Pokemon for 2HKO's or OHKO's anyway. The extra power does not score any necessary OHKO's that Surf cannot, and it only makes Machamp easier to 2HKO. It's not broken to add it, but it seems superfluous.

2. Cross Chop over Superpower. Superpower is really underwhelming on CAP10. We don't want Blissey countering every CAP10 set so well, and Snorlax becomes a huge, unbeatable threat without Cross Chop. Cross Chop's poor accuracy and low PP makes it not broken, like Close Combat would.

3. CAP10 virtually needs Earthquake. Without it, fighting Jolteon, Magnezone, and even Electivire will be extremely difficult. It also helps do something against Jirachi. A lot of Pokemon will become immediate threats without it. Earth Power is too weak for these Pokemon, as many can 2HKO CAP10 before CAP10 can 2HKO them with EP.

4. Give CAP10 a Grass and Psychic (or Flying) move. It's nice to go around saying that Hidden Power makes CAP10 less broken, but in reality, Hidden Power also makes CAP10 more useless against a variety of threats just because we're settling on "lesser power". A Grass move like Grass Knot helps a ton against Swampert, who shouldn't be such a threat to CAP10, and CAP10 would really appreciate Psychic for Machamp, which without it, Machamp can really mess around with CAP10. Air Slash is an alternative to Psychic, as it hits Breloom and Heracross for virtually the same damage as HP Flying, while still 2HKO'ing Machamp. However, if usage is a concern for you, Psychic is more of a situational move for CAP10, thus making the choice to counter Machamp more Utility Counter-like.

5. We're should find a way to stop CM users and Pain Split users. Which means, we're going to need a move from the following choices: Taunt, Encore, Haze, Psych Up, and possibly Sub+Charge Beam. I personally support Psych Up and Haze, as they either even the score for CAP10 or eliminate the boosts only, making for an even fight. Encore is also a really nice move, but locking an opponent into something CAP10 does not want doesn't help CAP10 one on one, which is what a Counters discussion is all about. CAP10's combination of Speed and bulk might be an issue here too. Taunt is way too powerful, and shuts down a lot of other things besides CM/PS users that we don't want completely crippled. Sub + CB helps against Dusknoir and standard Cresselia, but doesn't work well against CM users like Jirachi and Latias, and even potentially Cresselia.

6. About the recoil moves. Volt Tackle is an interesting choice. It might help Physical CAP10 counter some threats better. I don't see it being too powerful, though, unless there's a Calc that proves otherwise. It's not necessary, but it wouldn't hurt. Brave Bird is a big no-no. It counters CAP10's threats way too easily, like Machamp and Shaymin, which is not wanted. Double Edge seems pointless because of CAP10's low attack stat, and many of CAP10's moves rely on Super Effective damage. Wood Hammer seems useless. It will only hit Swampert, which Grass Knot does better. Water Pokemon are pretty much hit hard enough by STAB TBolts and TPunches anyway.

7. Is Magnet Rise necessary? While it's great to be completely immune to one of your two weaknesses, I'm not seeing a whole lot of instances where Magnet Rise would be completely necessary to stop threats. With that said, Mamoswine, ScarfTar and Metagross seem to be the only Pokemon that CAP10 would either require Magnet Rise or prevent it from taking huge damage. While these are three important Pokemon for CAP10 to try and counter, it's possible to still KO all three without its usage. This move should be discussed further before we immediately accept it just to eliminate a Ground weakness.

Thanks, and enjoy!
 
5. We're should find a way to stop CM users and Pain Split users. Which means, we're going to need a move from the following choices: Taunt, Encore, Haze, Psych Up, and possibly Sub+Charge Beam. I personally support Psych Up and Haze, as they either even the score for CAP10 or eliminate the boosts only, making for an even fight. Encore is also a really nice move, but locking an opponent into something CAP10 does not want doesn't help CAP10 one on one, which is what a Counters discussion is all about. CAP10's combination of Speed and bulk might be an issue here too. Taunt is way too powerful, and shuts down a lot of other things besides CM/PS users that we don't want completely crippled. Sub + CB helps against Dusknoir and standard Cresselia, but doesn't work well against CM users like Jirachi and Latias, and even potentially Cresselia.
Click to expand...

Trick would be a good way to cripple both of these types of threats as well, and should be strongly considered; this can be played around with good prediction though.

CAP10 is all about having a pokemon tailorable to certain situations... why not solve this problem with an equally situational move? Snatch would work great as a happy medium between Haze and Psych Up; riskier than Haze, but safer and more reliable than letting CMcune get 4 Calm Minds in.

That still leave Pain Splitters and Curse users as threats (if they avoid Trick); I think Encore would be way too good, and Taunt would be the only other option, which is even more broken. I honestly don't see a way around Pain Splitters without breaking CAP10.
 
Very impressive work, DrkSlay. I completely agree that Hydro Pump and Superpower should not be on CAP-10; other moves, like EQ, I'm unsure about... (specifically with EQ, it shouldn't be able to use that, but it looks like it will need it to fulfill its role, so... *shrug we'll see about it and the other moves.) I don't want to be joining the polljumping TOO much, but I think Psychic should be added to its movepool and Air Slash / Brave Bird should not, I think that needs to be said. I think Psych Up and Haze are also good options for it, because they not only fit the art design, but they also fit the concept better than the other moves do.

But I think your hard work puts us a huge step ahead in the Counters discussion. I'm guessing that this will move right along to movepool discussion before long...
 
Great job there DrkSlay, your hard work as really paid off here. Based on your list it seems we already have 12 or more things Pokemon that can counter/check CAP10 given the moves used within your calculations. Just one question, you mentioned that Hydro Pump would be superfluous on CAP10, have you done damage calculations to verify this?
 
Gothic Togekiss said:
Great job there DrkSlay, your hard work as really paid off here. Based on your list it seems we already have 12 or more things Pokemon that can counter/check CAP10 given the moves used within your calculations. Just one question, you mentioned that Hydro Pump would be superfluous on CAP10, have you done damage calculations to verify this?
Click to expand...
Well, aren't the calculations on Surf enough? First off, Surf 2HKOs most of the things that it wants to do so with that move, and in a few instances the damage percentage is high enough that you can see where Hydro Pump would be a OHKO.

That, and I don't see how this shrimp would USE the move, without any apparent external mouth or anything. :\ It seems too offensive for the concept and doesn't fit the design (in my opinion, at least).
 
Banryu said:
Well, aren't the calculations on Surf enough? First off, Surf 2HKOs most of the things that it wants to do so with that move, and in a few instances the damage percentage is high enough that you can see where Hydro Pump would be a OHKO.
Click to expand...
Yes and no. While the calculations are impressive and very infomative, I would still like to see how a few chose Pokemon fare against a LO Hydro Pump. DrkSlay said it wasn't broken on CAP10, just a bit superfluous. I just want to see how superfluous it really is.

Banryu said:
That, and I don't see how this shrimp would USE the move, without any apparent external mouth or anything.
Click to expand...
Shrimp used Hydro Pump

Banryu said:
:\ It seems too offensive for the concept and doesn't fit the design.
Click to expand...
CAP10 is kinda offensive actually if you concerned that those calculations above implies it's running a sweeper set.
 
Banryu said:
(specifically with EQ, it shouldn't be able to use that, but it looks like it will need it to fulfill its role, so... *shrug we'll see about it and the other moves.)
Click to expand...
As has been said many, many times before, whether the Pokémon looks like it can use a move or not is completely irrelevant.

Flavour has no bearing in competitive polls.
 
Gothic Togekiss said:
Yes and no. While the calculations are impressive and very infomative, I would still like to see how a few chose Pokemon fare against a LO Hydro Pump. DrkSlay said it wasn't broken on CAP10, just a bit superfluous. I just want to see how superfluous it really is.
Click to expand...

Sure. I can give you a few examples. We'll start with some easy ones, and go from there.

First off, a list of things that are 2HKO'd by Surf (with SR), but not OHKO'd by Hydro Pump: Electivire, Gengar, Forretress (small chance of OHKO w/Hydro Pump), Heracross, Jolteon, Lucario, Magnezone, Metagross, Rotom, and Scizor.

What will Hydro Pump accomplish that Surf cannot: it can guarantee a 2HKO on Machamp with SR up, it can OHKO Azelf, it can OHKO Porygon-Z with SR up (however, the Physical set should be used against PZ anyway), and OHKO Weavile after SR damage (see: PZ). That's about it.

A few more examples that stand out:

Heatran: Surf OHKO's all variants of Heatran except TormenTran, Burn Support, and Taunt with Stealth Rock in play. That's pretty much the least common ones. Hydro Pump can't OHKO Burn Support anyway, and CAP10 won't take anything hard from TauntTran, so a 2HKO is not much different than a OHKO. TormentTran also can't do anything back, and if it Torments, TBolt finishes it off. It's not the strongest example, but still viable, especially when someone wishes to counter Heatran specially. EQ from the Physical set will make this issue nonexistant, though.

Lucario: Surf is a 2HKO. Since Lucario takes 1/4 damage from SR, so is Hydro Pump. Once again, the Physical set will OHKO.

Dusknoir: Surf is a 3HKO. However, because of Leftovers (not accounting Pain Split), so is Hydro Pump. CAP10 only has a chance to 2HKO with Hydro Pump if Dusknoir switches in on CAP10's Hydro Pump (with SR), and both Hydro Pumps hit. Even then, though, it's not guaranteed by a longshot.

Surf provides the OHKO's and 2HKO's CAP10 needs to succeed. I don't see how giving it Hydro Pump will help a great deal at all. Keep in mind, too, like in the cases of PZ and Weavile, we want people to choose the correct sets that KO these kinds of Pokes. Giving it a power option like Hydro Pump for the sake of getting the OHKO might discourage the use of other sets and moves. It's not a breaking point (especially considering we're talking about PZ and Weavile here), but it's not necessary by a long stretch.
 
Cap 10's ability to counter anything is directly associated with its moves. I'm not running any calculations, but with bug buzz celebi is probably toast. With energy ball swampert and quagsire are in trouble. Cap 10 will definitely suffer from move slot syndrome and it's a good thing. This prevents it from countering everything even if it has a movepool that rivals mew's. This pokemon will be a bother to deal with, because you have to know what set it is running to do so.
 
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