CAP 11 CAP 11 - Concept Assessment 1

Now that we have CAP 11's concept, it's time to come to a decision as to where to go with this concept. Because Perfect Mate's purpose is to be a Pokemon that pairs very well with a Pokemon that isn't quite up to par with the big threats in the OU metagame, we have to decide what the Pokemon we want to assist. To avoid turning this thread into a major shitstorm, I'm going to have one guideline that must be followed:

• The Pokemon I am looking for are only allowed to be in the BL tier or have low OU usage. This means Yanmega and Weavile have my approval, but Tyranitar and Scizor do not.

Before we even come up with any Pokemon, we need to decide what kind of synergy we are looking for between Perfect Mate and the chosen Pokemon. Are we looking for an offensive core? Maybe the partnership is based on support? Perhaps a mix of both? This needs to be discussed before we start throwing out some names.

I will be deciding the Pokemon for this concept based on what I think is best and the arguments presented. If I end up being torn between a few Pokemon, I may end up making a poll, but it is not likely. I will also be posting my thoughts regarding what's been suggested so far.

Since this thread will spend a lot of time arguing for or against particular Pokemon, there will be another part to Concept Assessment. Once I decide on the Pokemon at the death of this thread, I will open up a "Part 2" so we can actually analyze and focus on our chosen Pokemon, as there won't be any other Pokemon to discuss to distract us.

Lastly, to avoid people suggesting random Pokemon because "they are cool" or "need more love", there will be a specific format that must be followed if you want to make a case for a Pokemon. If you suggest a Pokemon without following the format which is shown below, your post will be deleted without a warning.

The Format said:

Pokemon Name: The name of the Pokemon you are suggesting goes here.

Why this Pokemon: Why did you choose this Pokemon? What faults does it have that are making it an ineffective Pokemon in the current metagame? How can this Pokemon affect the metagame if it can successfully play in it? These are some questions that can be answered.

What are the possibilities: What are the possibilities for Perfect Mate with this concept? What kind of synergy will there be between the two? How can Perfect Mate deal with the Pokemon's issues? These are some questions that can be answered. If this Pokemon is too narrow and straightforward, it is not a good Pokemon. A good Pokemon base should have several possbilities to give us multiple ways to go about building Perfect Mate.

Click to expand...

The more detail, the better.

If this thread does turn into the aforementioned shitstorm, though, I will threaten to close it and pick the Pokemon and type of synergy myself so we can move on. Don't let me down.

DougJustDoug said:

Name: Perfect Mate

General Description: Pick a good-but-not-great OU pokemon, and design the perfect teammate for it, similar to the way Celebi & Heatran, or Blissey & Skarmory complement each other so well on competitive teams.

Justification:
This would allow us to explore in detail how synergy between two pokemon can be achieved, because currently there are only a few perfect teammates in OU. And depending on the base pokemon we choose to give a "perfect mate", we can open a new niche in the metagame based around the efficient pairing.
The niche we create will be inherently tied to an existing pokemon in the metagame, which should provide a natural limitation to prevent this concept from being broken or "too different" from standard OU.

Questions To Be Answered:

• Is the base pokemon's usefulness (and usage) in the metagame increased as a result of having a "perfect mate"?
• What strategies are more effective for the base pokemon, as a result of having a perfect teammate?
• What are the most effective aspects of the new pokemon, for purposes of making a great teammate with the base pokemon?
• Is the new pokemon viable in the metagame without the base pokemon as a teammate?

Click to expand...

You are also expected to follow these rules:

• No bashing. This is common sense, really. Don't be abrasive, insulting, passive-aggressive insulting, or anything like that. Keep it to civil discussion.

• No poll jumping. Do not outright suggest that CAP 11 should have a A and B typing, along with base X HP and base Y Speed. I do not want to see anyone proposing particular traits. However, it's acceptable to suggest abilities and types, among other things, but you are not to be coming up with the entire Pokemon in your posts. Just use your judgement, basically.

Thank you. I'm looking forward to all of your ideas. I'll probably close this thread tomorrow night.

This is my first time submitting anything like this, but i've lurked CAP and kinda contributed in some polls.Sorry for any glaring errors here .-.

Pokemon Name: Yanmega

Why this Pokemon: To quote from the analysis,

Yannmega has an excellent Special Attack stat, very respectable Speed, and two of the most powerful abilities in the game at his disposal. With Tinted Lens, Yanmega is capable of 2HKOing even dedicated walls who resist his STAB attacks, an impressive feat. Meanwhile, if he instead chooses to use Speed Boost, he will outspeed the entire metagame, including Choice Scarf users, after a turn or two.

It's hard to imagine Yanmega being anything other than top-tier OU after considering his strengths, yet the fact remains that he's not. Yanmega suffers from an utterly crippling 4x weakness to Stealth Rock that has completely nullified his presence as a standard of the metagame. Weaknesses to common Fire-, Ice-, and Electric-type attacks aren't helping Yanmega's position either. These weaknesses, coupled with Yanmega's not-so-stellar defenses, have sealed the dragonfly's fate and unfortunately banished him to the bottom of OU.

Click to expand...

The parts I feel are important are highlighted. But simply, Yanmega COULD be a top-tier OU Pokemon. It's held back by the highlighted points, and if we could create a Pokemon which could remove everything hindering it, we could bring a bug Pokemon to Top Tier OU.

What are the possibilities: Perfect Mate would be able to deal with all/most the weaknesses which Yanmega suffers from.It could be a wall with Rapid Spin which handles Fire, Ice and Electric moves with ease, or it could be a speedy sweeper designed to take out users of mentioned move types.The biggest constriction here is Stealth Rock, as even if this Pokemon gives Yanmega a sweep, loosing 50% health on the switch-in isn't something which works well. In my opinion, that's the only close minded part which this CAP would have to deal with.

Pokemon Name: Empoleon

Why this Pokemon: As the polls were going through I was attempting to come up with possible cores, offensive and defensive. During irc discussions I was sparked by the idea of the offensive core, a relatively unexplored area because those cores just seem to "mesh." They don't necessarily cover each other's weaknesses perfectly, and sometimes you need a third Pokemon to really complete the core. Empoleon has the proper combination of offensive and defensive ability to leave any third partner determinant mostly on common weaknesses rather than deep flaws created trying to mesh with a more deliberately offensive choice.

What are the possibilities: The way I see it there are two ways to build an offensive core: a) Choose a currently existing Pokemon and build a CAP around their weaknesses. b) Build a CAP whose weaknesses would be covered by a currently existing Pokemon.

Empoleon is a prime driver for b). Water/Steel is an excellent defensive type that employs Water's powerful neutral STAB along with Ice Beam and Grass Knot in SubPetaya Empoleon's case. Empoleon also has powerful Lead and Swords Dance + Priority sets. It is, in other words, a very potent bulky offensive Pokemon with an exceptional set of resistances that allow it to switch in, and multiple forms of offense. Its intangibles are excellent in that it resists Stealth Rock, is immune to Toxic Spikes, and is immune to Sandstorm.

Since Empoleon has many resistances, it will free our CAP creation to go in a very heavy offensive direction. Empoleon's drawbacks are as follows: Weaknesses to Electric, Ground, and Fighting, and an inability to fulfill the Bulky Water role by switching into powerful Fire and Ground attacks like Gyarados, Suicune, and Vaporeon and threatening the opposing Heatran, Metagross, Infernape etc. out.

I do not expect a CAP creation to cover all those weaknesses, however Fighting is of the least concern, as outside of Machamp, few Fighting Pokemon can switch into Empoleon. Coming in on Sub or Agility ruins Infernape and Lucario. This leaves Thunderbolt and Earthquake (the most common Electric and Ground attacks), both of which are easier to deal with. Empoleons inability to switch into powerful Fire-typed moves utilized by Heatran and Infernape are also an issue, even though it could potentially finish either off with Aqua Jet.

Choosing Empoleon gives us maximum freedom to take risks with CAP11, because unlike other offensive Pokemon we can focus more on complementary attack coverage to Empoleon's Water/[Ice/Grass](SubPetaya) or Water/Ground(SD Emp). Because of Empoleon's long list of resistances and intangibles, we have much more freedom even from the Typing stage. Since our partner Pokemon is already meant to take the attacks our CAP would draw, and is already a known quantity as far as coverage, we can let Empoleon live in the background a little.

Deck Knight said:

Pokemon Name: Empoleon

Click to expand...

Considering the sheer number of Water and Steel types in the OU, I think that making a partner for any of them would boost enough other OUs in ways we hadn't anticipated that the concept would fail. Empoleon by that logic is perhaps the single worst Pokemon to make a partner for.

Pokemon Name: Froslass

Why this Pokemon? Froslass enjoyed a fair bit of use in UU before being moved to BL, and for good reason. She has a unique strategy as a ghost type with access to spikes, making her an ideal Rapid Spin blocker. She hasn't seen much use in OU, but with the right teammate to help her out she could be very effective. Froslass has a great 110 base Speed as well as taunt, but her other stats are fairly mediocre. This makes her good at switching into predicted threats, but bad at going toe to toe with anyone. Thanks to her Snow Cloak ability, she obviously can make great use of hail, since she can't really afford to take a hit; having an extra 20% miss chance is great for her. She's got a lot of things going for her, but in OU there are too many better options to consider right now.

What are the possibilities? Froslass has several different dimensions that an ideal teammate could capitalize on. One aspect to focus on could be the weather, of course. Hail is not very common right now, and Froslass benefits greatly from it. Having a teammate aside from Abomasnow who can reliably set up the field effect could be conducive to more use.

Alternatively, a teammate with baton pass and some choice moves could make great use of Froslass' unique attributes. By passing some good stat boosts to her, she could become a true sweeper, either physical, special, or both since her attack stats right now are good but not great. Another option could be to capitalize on her ghost moves like Perish Song, and have a teammate who can baton pass a Mean Look to her, trapping an ineffectual opponent with her while she can use Perish Song or taunt to either get rid of them or give her time to set up.

Then of course there's her unique metagame effect on entry hazards. Froslass can block Rapid Spin while also setting up spikes, and is also immune to hail. This makes her great for a heavy emphasis on residual damage! Having a teammate who can set up a different kind of entry hazard could make use of Froslass' spin-blocking. Alternatively they could have a high emphasis on pseudo-hazing, and use roar or whirlwind to switch enemies into a variety of entry hazards.

In conclusion, Froslass has a lot of potential to move the OU metagame into new territory. Hail right now is very much a stall game, as we covered with the Winter Wonderland submission. Although this teammate wouldn't neccessarily need to focus on or even use hail, it has the potential to help Froslass change hail from a slow stall game into a fast-paced entry hazard rich metagame. Froslass has a lot of unique potential with her typing, her ability, and her movepool which can be exploited to great effect in an OU metagame where she hasn't seen much use.

vonFiedler said:

Considering the sheer number of Water and Steel types in the OU, I think that making a partner for any of them would boost enough other OUs in ways we hadn't anticipated that the concept would fail. Empoleon by that logic is perhaps the single worst Pokemon to make a partner for.

Click to expand...

Possibly, but Water and Steel types both operate very differently in OU. Steel types have the same intangibles as Empoleon, but they don't share Electric weakness and, with the exception of Heatran, have much greater problems with Fire-types in general. In fact, Heatran almost explicitly threatens Steel types and itself on it's own. Steel is fairly self-contained in what it does, and if we made a CAP that threatens Steel types, it could also threaten Empoleon.

Water types are in another boat. Gyarados is a fairly self-contained sweeper, as is CM Suicune. Tentacruel is low OU so if CAP did give it a boost, it would not necessarily be outside the scope of this project. Swampert too is a great support Pokemon that vies with Empoleon for a lead spot.

Empoleon operates much more like the offensive Steels in OU than the offensive Water types. Right now it serves mostly a cleaning role, as nothing truly complements it well.

The point of the offensive core would be to bring out Empoleon's unique traits by being offensive, Water, and Steel combined. It's really the unique simultaneous Water and Rock resistance that could be exploited with the right combination of typing and ability to lure those attacks.

Remember the idea behind Empoleon is to build an offensive core that allows Empleon's coverage to shine after absorbing attacks the CAP lures in. Since Empoleon never uses Steel attacks (and in fact, only the SD set shares Earthquake as common offensive Steel attack), the offensive combination would be more apt to benefit Water types than Steels, as Empoleon has problems with many of the offensive Steels. Most Offensive Water types, as already explained, are self-contained (or have already existing cores like Gyarados/Jolteon[or Evire].)

Typing is not the only thing that determines synergy, and Empoleon has a unique typing with generally adversarial single-type support (Strong Fire moves help Water and hurt Steel, Strong Grass moves do the reverse. Only Empoleon handles strong Water attacks well among Steels, etc.)

Pokemon Name: Raikou

Why Raikou: Raikou is a strong Pokemon, with good Special Attack and Speed. However, it lacks the raw power to run through teams and often needs setup with Calm Mind. Add that to its lacking coverage and resisted STAB, and you have a Pokemon that would certainly benefit from a partner that could ease its existence.

What are the Possibilities: I think a Raikou partner could be a multitude of things. A levitating wallbreaker, flying support poke, or a ground trapper. The reason I think that a Raikou partner would be good is because it allows CAP11 to explore a wide list of options without going into other territory unrelated to the concept. Raikou could be a very good, if not great, OU poke if it had support from a teammate.

I support Azule's nomination of Yanmega.

Yanmega has a very useful combination of stats, abilities, and generally everything except it's typing, which is one of the worst typings possible in basically any pokemon metagame. It's stats are all very good, and nearly anything not designed to take a hit dies very quickly to Yanmega. If he had another typing that rendered him less weak to things, then I don't doubt he'd be a great menace. The addition of a defensive partner, something resistant to attacks like Fire, Ice, Electric, or Rock could easily give him the boost he needs.

As mentioned by Azule, we could create some sort of Rapid Spinner with high defenses. However, we could also create a pokemon designed to keep rocks from being set up, a sort of pokemon designed to prey on set uppers that don't often carry sash, such as Fidgit and Forretress and such, or at least keep them out.

A partner would probably require resistances to Yanmega's Rock and Ice weaknesses, and at least decent defenses. A weakness to ground would certainly be interesting, allowing the partner to scale away from being too dangerous while at the same time allowing it to need Yanmega as a partner.

Pokemon Name: Zapdos

Why This Pokemon: Back in early DP, when Stealth Rock was far less common than it is today, Zapdos was a potent wall and was on a large portion of stall teams. However, in the current metagame, Zapdos has several flaws that consign it to low OU. It has weaknesses to Ice and the all-important Rock, as well as being pushed out of its niche by Rotom-A. Another problem Zapdos has is its lack of Pokemon that go well with it. Pairing Zapdos with Pursuit users, as suggested in the analysis, leaves Zapdos vulnerable to bulky Grounds. Zapdos also lacks good defensive partners. Forretress and Tentacruel, two Pokemon suggested as supporters for Zapdos as suggested in the analysis, suffer from their own problems and will usually not be able to both set up Toxic Spikes and use Rapid Spin. While Swampert and Zapdos cover each others' weaknesses well, they are easily stalled out. So while there could be a perfect partner to Zapdos in the metagame, there currently is none.

While most of the other options for partner Pokemon would let us learn about what makes a good offensive core, picking Zapdos would in addition show us how to make a good defensive one. While defensive cores are arguably simpler than offensive ones and mostly involve using Pokemon that cover each others' weaknesses and weak defensive stats, there are many factors that determine how good a defensive core will be. One has to make sure a defensive core is not stalled out by other stall teams, and has to make the core almost completely stallbreaker-proof. Picking Zapdos could teach us about offensive cores; Zapdos has underrated offensive stats and great type coverage. Zapdos is a great pick for the partner Pokemon because it would let us learn about both offensive and defensive cores at the same time.

What are the possibilites: A partner for Zapdos would have to mitigate the problem that hinders Zapdos the most: Stealth Rock. This would most likely be done by making CAP11 an effective user of Rapid Spin. Zapdos and its partner Pokemon should definitely cover each others' weaknesses, so CAP11 could have a typing such as Water / Steel or Fighting / Steel. One thing we would have to avoid in making CAP11 as a partner to Zapdos would be keeping CAP11 from becoming a perfect partner to Rotom-A. Thus, CAP11 should support the characteristics that set Zapdos apart from Rotom-A. Making CAP11 Pursuit-weak would also keep it from becoming a perfect partner to Rotom-A. We would also have to decide how offensive or defensive to make CAP11. CAP11 would have to be able to defeat threats to Zapdos from both offensive and defensive sides, since threats to Zapdos are often Pokemon like Tyranitar that can use both offensive and defensive movesets.

Speaking at ATL here:

Please avoid using duplicate nominations.

We encourage you to show support for an idea by discussing or futher explaining posibiities for that Pokemon. Fuzznip (and myself) want to see ideas receiving broad support and reasoning before Fuzznip makes his decision on the Perfect Mate Pokemon.

So to reiterate, if you like a specific nomination please reiterate support. If you don't believe you have a few graphs that is fine, a few sentences on where you think the nominated Pokemon could go is good enough. All we ask is for intelligent discussion and support. Usually the people who nominate feel they are in the best position for an initial arguments. By lending support to them you are strengthening their case and giving them more influence on the outcome.

Thanks again for all the good nominations and contributions thus far. I'll be running through them when I get back from an errand.

Pokemon Name: Togekiss

Why this Pokemon:

I wanted a pokemon that was versatile and that could be complemented both offensive and defensively. After using one on a Suspect and OU team to great success I think Togekiss has great potential for CAP with the right teammate. Togekiss’ biggest problem in OU is getting through pokemon with high Special defense and those who resist Air Slash and/or Aura Sphere. In OU, this means Rotom, which has seen a sharp decrease in CAP, but that is only because bigger and badder pests like Kitsunoh do Rotom’s anti-spinning job much better. Offensive versions like the Nasty Plot or Choice Scarf sweepers have difficulties setting up because of Blissey and pokemon that outspeed Togekiss. Electric-types like Krilowatt and Zapdos also counter all versions. However, Togekiss can serve its niche in the CAP metagame as a counter to Arghonaut, Pyroak, and Revenakh.

What are the possibilities:

Ideal options would be:

1.) Something that can switch in on any Electric, Ice, Rock, or Ghost-type attacks. A Steel physical wall that could deal with Electric-types or a Special Dark type could take out anti-spinners. The top teammates for Togekiss in OU were Scizor, Jirachi, Infernape, Metagross, and Gengar last month, all of whom can support Togekiss but not as a wall to these respective types. None of these learn Rapid Spin, either, which gives Togekiss fewer chances to switch in.

2.) Rapid Spinning is purely optional and not mandatory because Togekiss does have some bulk, but would be useful on the right CAP. Hopefully this isn't going to be Colossoil 2.0 like it could be.

3.) Ideally, this won’t just build another Skarmory-like generic physical wall because people might assume Togekiss is Blisseylite. Togekiss plays much differently because Togekiss has very usable Special Attack and can’t wall certain special-type moves that Blissey can with no problems. Colossoil might seem like an ideal partner already for Togekiss with its Electric-type resistance, but it can’t switch in on Ice-type attacks and was only used 63 times with Togekiss on the CAP server in May.

4.) Togekiss can support CAP 11 by switching in to Grass, Ground, and Fighting-type attacks. Togekiss is also very good at spreading Paralysis and healing itself for self-sufficiency so CAP 11 can go either in an offensive or defensive direction. Baton Passing Wish, Substitutes, or Nasty Plots can be another option for Togekiss to support CAP 11.

Pokemon Name: Heracross

Why this Pokemon: Heracross is an interesting case. Formerly dominant, he has all the attributes to be a powerful threat in the OU metagame. But why isn't he? Why has he taken such a fall from grace? Well, for one, Ghost types like to wall Heracross to no end and with the advent of bulkier, stronger Ghosts, plus the spin blocking ability make Ghosts all the more important. Gengar and Rotom-A are big players in OU. Furthermore, Heracross' simply "good" speed is not enough to be useful offensively. Simply "good" bulk is no match for the stronger generation.

That being said, Heracross has some monster power, a good movepool, good abilities and good offensive AND defensive typing. He's merely lacking in a few stats such that in the new world he's become a fraction of what he used to be. Let's bring Heracross back to being a monster, he deserves it.


What are the possibilities: Heracross' main problems are fast, offensive threats and Ghosts, as well as entry hazards to a degree. Heracross isn't shut down by Stealth Rocks so a Spinner isn't a must, but it'd be nice. A strong Pursuit user would be ideal, something with speed or priority. Typing should lend itself to being able to stop fast threats so STAB on priority or effective typing to hit fast Pokemon easily would be useful. As a primarily offensive Pokemon, Heracross would not want to switch into attacks so we aren't necessarily looking for complimentary defensive typing. Another way to help Heracross is via paralysis. Something that can paralyze most of an opponent's team can let Heracross sweep much more easily. Unfortunately, many bulky Pokemon (Hippowdown, Swampert, Gliscor) are not easily paralyzed and require Stun Spore or Body Slam or Glare, whatever, to get the job done and those moves simply are not prevalent enough or used on effective Pokemon who are useful with Heracross.


Basically, Heracross is a strange case which should lend itself to a strange solution which I feel will be fun to explore. He's so close to being a monster and missing out by a small margin so it should also be interesting to see if we can make a Heracross compliment without helping something like Machamp more.

I support the notion of supporting Heracross due too the fact that it can bring in raw power to a team.

I support Heracross, but I'm really against the idea of our perfect mate being a spinner, especially because entry hazards can actually help Heracross (Toxic Spikes Guuuts) and since fighting resists rock, heracross doesn't have much fear when it comes to switching into stealth rocks. That and I just don't like using rapid spin, seriously, too many ghosts and it's just not worth wasting a turn and slot on if you're not running something that's going to be worrying about rocks 24/7.

For the record, almost all of Heracross' counters can be hit for SE by Ice Beam, Thunderbolt or Earthquake (only really necessary for Jirachi and Metagross)

I kind of see Heracross as being the ultimate PHYSICAL pokemon, though my definition of that term is vague I guess, but thus, an ultimate SPECIAL pokemon would be a nice perfect mate :3

For the record, a crapload of pokemon are hit SE by BoltBeam and EQ.

Scicky said:

I support Heracross, but I'm really against the idea of our perfect mate being a spinner, especially because entry hazards can actually help Heracross (Toxic Spikes Guuuts) and since fighting resists rock, heracross doesn't have much fear when it comes to switching into stealth rocks. That and I just don't like using rapid spin, seriously, too many ghosts and it's just not worth wasting a turn and slot on if you're not running something that's going to be worrying about rocks 24/7.

For the record, almost all of Heracross' counters can be hit for SE by Ice Beam, Thunderbolt or Earthquake (only really necessary for Jirachi and Metagross)

Click to expand...

Oh I didn't mean to imply it should be a spinner. I just thought it'd be a nice. Though if we are making a Ghost Killing Spinner, then that's just Colossoil. Therefore, we should move away from Spinning. Heracross can appreciate Toxic Spikes but things like Reversal sets are too hard to manage with hazards up so, as I've said, it's something to keep in mind but we really don't have to emphasize spinning by any stretch.

Pokemon Name: Staraptor (BL)

Why this Pokemon: Because it can do very well in OU, but isn't used, with this Pokémon it may get some more usage to see a good sweeper changing the metagame. What faults does it have that are making it an ineffective Pokemon in the current metagame? Probably SR weakness, but there's not much that stops it (other than Kitsunoh). How can this Pokemon affect the metagame if it can successfully play in it? By sweeping with weird types of moves (e.g. Brave Bird and Close Combat to support it's coverage), and changing the usage of other Pokémons that can counter it (e.g. Skarmoy and Kitsunoh) which we could counter with Perfect Mate.

Maybe by having good (if possible perfect) synergy, it could be much more used. Also, there are much possibilities for Perfect Mate with this Pokémon, like Baton Passer, Antilead, Defensive Antilead, Synergy Baton Passer, TWaver, WoWer, Anti - Kitsunoh and much more.

Pokemon Name: umbreon.

Why this Pokemon: umbreon has always been a unique case; 95/110/130 defenses are awesome and he has almost every support move you could ever ask for. wish, mean look, baton pass, heal bell, and taunt are the kinds of things i'm talking about. his problem is that he really hasn't improved at all since GSC, while the sweepers have been becoming more and more powerful. he also has issues in dealing with this metagame; scizor is a giant pain in the balls and miscellaneous fighting-types like lucario and machamp make it hard for the guy to do what he does best. faster taunts (gyarados, gliscor, skarmory) i think umbreon is a good choice because he's unique and has a lot of potential.

i'm seeing two possible ways to make umbreon more useful: make a cap to change the metagame to try to remove scizor and the fighters, or make a cap who can seriously punish those who try to counter umbreon. it should resist u-turn and have some serious way of beating scizor (maybe magnet pull or an ability that makes u-turn fail) and if possible an immunity to fighting, meaning the pokemon could likely be a ghost-type. ghost conveniently resists umbreon's weaknesses and vice versa. this pokemon would have to be usable on the same team as umbreon, meaning it should between bulky and very bulky. it shouldn't need offenses (unless we're looking at it as a baton pass recipient maybe) but 96+ might be nice to ensure that it can beat gliscor.

empoleon is also a good suggestion

First, before anything else, I want to rally behind an offensive core. Defensive cores have been beaten to death in OU between SkarmBliss and other FWG things. They all focus on type synergy alone and lack much depth beyond that, whereas an offensive core forces either a directional dependence or a unique approach to both maintaining momentum, opening holes for the other sweeper, and so forth. An offensive core is, without a doubt, the best for this concept.

As for the Pokemon I am supporting...Weavile is an oft-overlooked possibility for something in need of a mate mostly because of its general frailty. However, there are many intriguing aspects to Weavile that no other Low-OU Pokemon can boast, things that, in my book, make it the absolute perfect candidate for having a perfect mate. There are, of course, the obvious things it could stand to gain. Weavile is a potent sweeper with good type coverage, much like any number of other Pokemon. However, check this...

• Weavile is a Pokemon who is weak to Stealth Rock, but also immensely threatens the OU Pokemon that block Rapid Spin.

This is particularly interesting in that it gives Weavile a unique niche that it can support CAP11 who might attempt to Rapid Spin in order to help get Weavile in without worrying about Stealth Rock. This also allows Weavile to support CAP11, giving us directional flexibility in how we develop CAP11. We could either use Weavile to try to deal with the Ghosts that CAP11 may end up hating, or we could use CAP11 to lure moves from Ghosts that give Weavile chances to setup and thrive. This directional flexibility is important for a budding and diverse CAP process.

• Weavile, as a Pokemon, fills a role as a sweeper that is not usurped or outclassed by other, more-prominent OU threats.

This is particularly important, as it means that whatever we make for Weavile will not be abused by something else and ignored by potential Weavile-users entirely. The closest thing in OU to Weavile is Tyranitar with his own STAB Pursuit, however, Tyranitar lacks the Stealth Rock weakness (meaning he doesn't need Rapid Spin support), lacks the ability to sweep with its lack of Swords Dance, high base Speed, and will generally never need or care about the support that CAP11 would provide. Weavile is also nothing like Lucario or Heracross, the other resident OU Swords Dance users, as they each come in on and have trouble with vastly different things. They also don't meet the first bullet point I've listed above, which is key. This gives Weavile a unique niche as a sweeper that we can explore with CAP11.

• Weavile's typing encourages us to explore possible typing combinations that we classically ignore in the CAP creation process.

This is kind of a minor point, but it encourages discussion unique to this CAP that is an exciting prospect for me. I won't poll-jump and tell you all which typings I'm thinking of, but I'm sure you can figure it out.

• Weavile's general fragility encourages us to be more creative with the process in order to discover how best to support it.

A lot of people look at Weavile's frailty and say "Oh my God, that thing is so weak, we will never be able to support it!" In fact, however, Weavile's general frailty forces us to really examine and discuss the different ways we can support it without it being maimed and obliterated when we try to sweep with it. The discussions we'll get from analyzing Weavile will completely blow those we'll get from something like Empoleon out of the water. With Empoleon, his unique resistance palette and very defensive nature really let us slack off too much in terms of creativity. We can practically just give our CAP a defensively matching typing, give it its own sweeping set, and call them an offensive core. That, to me, is a very boring prospect. We need to get more out of this unique concept's process than that.

• Weavile's type coverage gives us a healthy, but not restricting, direction as to where we can go with CAP11.

Weavile has a focused movepool, but consequently has rather excellent offensive type coverage in Ice/Fighting/Dark. This type coverage allows our CAP to cover a wide variety of different things in different ways in order to support Weavile, something that Pokemon like Yanmega cannot boast. Yanmega's immensely powerful Specs Tinted Lens set needs only one, fixed, rigid, and obvious support - Rapid Spin. If you can guarantee Rapid Spin support for Yanmega, Specs Tinted Lens Air Slash and Bug Buzz rip through the metagame, no more support needed. That, to me, is a very unexciting prospect for CAP11. We need something that gives us more options than that, which serendipitously, Weavile does.I rambled about these in excess above, so I won't really beat this horse to death here as well. Suffice to say that Weavile gives us moderate, but not restricting, direction, diverse options, directional flexibility, and a unique typing and ability discussion the likes of which CAP has not seen before.

Weavile, ultimately, has the potential to provide us with the best discussions possible, while all of the other options fall short of that. To me, there is no greater success than a discussion-heavy CAP where we learn a lot from the process itself, regardless of what happens to the end result. For these reasons, I support Weavile for CAP11's mate, and hope that you do too.

Pokemon Name: Honchkrow

Why this Pokemon: Honchkrow has a fairly decent movepool backed up by great 125 attack and above average 105 sp.atk and usable 71 speed. Honchkrow has a rather unique dark and flying typing. Honchkrow's biggest fault is its decent speed, and horrible 52/52 defenses even though honchkrow has 100 base hp. Honchkrow is forced to roost more often because of SR. With good prediction honchkrow is a fearsome sweeper or a useful revenge killer with a scarf, it has lots of potential, but its defenses are pulling it back. Also choice scarf heatran can come in on anything except for superpower and KO it with STAB fire blast. Also steel types always have an edge over honchkrow especially scizor. CB scizor BP can OHKO honchkrow 100% of the time with SR although I have paired honchkrow with heatran and magnezone before there are still problems.

Well to start the the perfect mate for honchkrow must have rapid spin and bulky enough to take hits for honchkrow and KO some of honchkrow's threats. I'm thinking of a water-ground type with magnet pull to trap steels and KO with EQ. Something with speed around 80's would be nice to outspeed heatran. The water - ground typing is appealing because of its only weakness be resisted by honckrow and vice versa (sort of) Heck even something with around the same stats as Swampert would be great.


Empoleon and Yanmega would be cool also

Pokemon Name: Porygon-Z

Why this Pokemon: To quote the Smogon Analysis:

Porygon-Z was vastly over-hyped in the early stages of the 4th generation, boasting to be the only Pokemon who could OHKO Blissey with a special attack after just one turn of set-up. However, it soon fell into obscurity because of its average Speed and lack of resistances.

Click to expand...

So Porygon-Z has the potential to be top-tier OU, and has the movepool (pretty good both offensively and defensively) and Special Attack to support it. There are, however, a few things holding it back. Priority counters (such as Scizor and Lucario) and its lack of speed take away from its revenge-killing chances and ability to take on faster threats. It can be a devastating Special Sweeper if we just give it something more to work with, Porygon-Z isn't the biggest team player in the world.

What are the possibilities:
I believe that there are a few different things that could support this Pokemon in CAP. Options that buy time by creating mischief in the opponents team (trapping/status/stat-dropping), Baton Passing goodies to it (such as Cosmic Power to help it survive the switch in, Agility to raise its speed, or Nasty Plot to save time on the switch in) or dealing with priority moves and their users. My first thought was a Poke that easily deals with speedy Revenge Killers and frail sweepers, but has trouble dealing with bulkier/slower opponents that Porygon-Z could blow out of the water.

An idea that we should consider in this CAP is not just how the CAP contributes to our Pokemon, but also how the selected Pokemon helps our CAP. Skarmory/Blissey isn't just one Pokemon switching to counter an opponent, they both have strengths that compliment the others weaknesses.

hang on hang on

The Pokemon I am looking for are only allowed to be in the BL tier or have low OU usage. This means Yanmega and Weavile have my approval, but Tyranitar and Scizor do not.

Click to expand...

What exactly do you mean by "low OU"? One thing I really don't want this CAP to turn into is from "Perfect Mate" to "Make unpopular Pokemon better", as your wording seems to suggest. I'm not trying to be an arse here (I have a habit of seeming so), I'd just like a little more clarity on what you as Topic Leader are looking for when nominating, as the wording which you used would imply that usage is more important to determination than a Pokemon that has real potential as a partner. I was thinking far more along the lines of stuff like Breloom and Gengar as a "good-but-not-great-Pokemon" than really, really low down, niche stuff like Dumbreon and Weavile. Really, I'd have thought that anything outside the top ten or so would be an appropriate starting point, with a few exceptions.

Having said that, you are the TL and your decision stands. I just thought I had to get my opinion across.

Now, more importantly, instead of going ahead and spamming a Pokemon immediately I think it might be better to first determine, as stated in the OP, what kind of a partnership we want this to be so as to get the most out of it, and in particular, how we can ensure that there is an incentive for this to be the case in standard. Making the perfect partner to Heracross would be wasted if Scizor turned out to be a more popular partner, after all. So, we have some preliminary ideas of what we want already. I will be using Breloom as my example here.

• Defensive Synergy. This is important, as we want these Pokemon to be able to switch in and, essentially, be easy to alternate in a battle. This would in effect be the same as making a defensive combination, however this should ring true for any combination. This means that there is incentive for the Pokemon we select to have a unique and fundamentally different typing, so that there is a competitive benefit to using them in sync where there would not be for any other Pokemon. So, for Breloom (GRASS/FIGHT), our CAP should resist most of Flying, Fire, Poison, Ice, and Psychic, and be weak to some of Rock, Grass, Water, and Ground. Hence, a Rock-type would seem the obvious first type pick, taking three in each although it would need both considerable special defence and a way to beat Scizor, obviously.
• Offensive Synergy. Or, the ability to take on and beat each other’s counters and checks. Both offensive and defensive synergy are important for our “Perfect Mate” if it is to live up to both ‘perfect’ and ‘mate’. So, for our Breloom mate, we would need some way of beating all of Salamence, Gyarados, Gliscor, and Scizor, among others. Which is a pretty tall order. And pretty much brings us back to Krilowatt again.
• Support Qualities. Although the above two are important and obvious points, this one is a little more niche and a little more interesting. Say we were to have a sweeper Swords Dance Breloom rather than the standard Spore Puncher. Or indeed, for that matter, a Swords Dance Heracross. Both like paralysis support and the removal of popular priority users (Read: Lucario and Scizor). In this case, our CAP11 should be flexible enough to adjust to whatever role its partner is playing – if it requires offensive support, it provides – if to take care of a hard counter, it provides – if to simply harass the opponent enough to allow its partner to sweep, it provides. These roles, too, should be interchangeable – that is to say, what works one way should work the other way. This is an integral reason for someone choosing a partnership – if one falls, the strategy is adjustable to the extent that it can fit different opposing teams – and without which I doubt the “Perfect Mate” idea can be vaguely as successful as otherwise.

So, in summary – CAP11 should be able to adjust its game to any role its partner chooses, be it defensive, offensive or supporting, and crucially it should be able to adjust to this role in battle, and not beforehand – the sets being run by the partners should have little effect on the way the partnership is played.


Now that my thoughts there are expressed – here is what I think we should be looking for in our Perfect mate counterpart.

• Flexibility. Consider the oft-cited CeleTran – both Celebi and Heatran can all play support, defensive or offensive games according to their set and the opponents team, which is one of the main strengths of the partnership. Clearly our partnership should seek to emulate this flexibility.
• Typing. Ideally the typing should be unique or close to, and both an advantage and a disadvantage to the Pokemon in question. This is the area where the partnership becomes a powerful force, that both can negate the weaknesses of the other, and the more weaknesses to cover, the stronger the bond – as an analogy, consider ionic bonding between elements. But to take the analogy further, the strong bond can make reactions lacking, so we should moderate this area so as to engender the best of both worlds scenario, so to speak.
• Capacity. If there is little potential in forming a partnership, for example with Weavile, there is no point in us choosing it. Weavile lacks any sort of capacity to come in, so serves no defensive help whatsoever. It also doesn’t really *need* offensive support per se – it is more than comfortable with standard support and generic wallbreaking, and I hardly see how either party would be better off for the partnership.
• Lastly, Viability. This topic is difficult to address, as both parties have to be viable in their own right, BUT there has to be a genuine advantage to them forming a partnership over any other – this, it seems, is the crucial point. Thus it would seem to the more pessimistic among us that there are two ways to fail – the lesser-used Pokemon was lesser-used for a reason, or the higher-used Pokemon is too versatile to be a permanent partner – while to the optimists, this project can work so many ways it would be a pity to waste any option we have. So, a happy medium between the two is ideal.

Sorry if I’m a bit incoherent, it’s late here and I’m pretty mellowed at this point. I would also like to say, if it would be permitted, that we should hold off on throwing out random Pokemon just yet until we can ascertain exactly what we want to achieve, rather than which Pokemon we happen to want to make more viable. So, can we discuss that addressed in the OP first? I really think it’s better than dashing off into any old Pokemon first, however good your personal reasons may be.

Expect another thought process post up shortly. Good night.

I second the nomination of Porygon-z by RamenNoodles.

It has a massive special attack but very mediocre speed. A poke to get rid of fast revenge killers, possibly similar to dugtrio, would be the "perfect mate" to porygon-z. Its mate needs to deal with priority users effectively, possibly a ghost-fire to absorb common priority attacks and take priority users out, namely lucario and scizor.

Well there's my 2 cents, haha.

bugmaniacbob said:

What exactly do you mean by "low OU"? One thing I really don't want this CAP to turn into is from "Perfect Mate" to "Make unpopular Pokemon better". Really, I'd have thought that anything outside the top ten or so would be an appropriate starting point, with a few exceptions.

If there is little potential in forming a partnership, for example with Weavile, there is no point in us choosing it. Weavile lacks any sort of capacity to come in, so serves no defensive help whatsoever.

Click to expand...

Quoted for truth. I think the pokemon we choose would have to have reasonable bulk and a good enough typing to let it form a combination that was both offensive and defensive. The beauty of combos such as Toxicroak + Houndoom in UU is that, even though both are frail, the two have immunities and resistances enough to switch in repeatedly, weakening the opponent's team until a sweep can be achieved.