CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 2 - Main Typing Poll

Very important thing here. If we're making a special Fighter that can kill all the OU Special walls bar Vapeoreon, I guarantee it's going to be used by itself often.

Click to expand...

Togekiss can set up on or kill every OU Special Wall, including Vaporeon and Celebi. That's not enough to make it top OU, because it still has mediocre speed and typing, suffers greatly from moveslot syndrome and can still be beaten by status. Like I said earlier, our CAP should, like Togekiss, need anti-status support to reliably beat Celebi. As long as one of the pair can do that, Blissey won't stop them.

Even if you suggest we make it have only good Special Attack unless it's passed it, you're going to have to deal with Celebi and it's CM baton passing, and I bet Celebi is also going to like having a recipient that can take U-Turns without fear and kill Ghosts.

Click to expand...

We're intenting to make a low-OU pokemon that shines witk Kiss. Why would Celebi bother with it when it already has Celetran? Not to mention that Celebi doesn't need parlysis or anti-status support.

But if I need to use it to counter this Togekiss/CAP11 combo, then you bet your ass I can and will do it. Anything is fair game on the defense.

Click to expand...

So now, our pair has one counter that's bad at everything else. Big deal.

no really, you did just type the same thing twice

Click to expand...

Like I said earlier, Colossoil is the best rapid spinner ever, but not used as the best spinner ever because it can do something else even better.

Also, think about this: there is no way we can guarantee which Pokemon this CAP will be used alongside.

Click to expand...

We can't guarantee it, but we're supposed to do everything we can to make it so ! We're supposed to try to push Togekiss higher, not making a cool pokemon that could help Togekiss, but is actually used to help Gyarados.

what other pokemon helps gyarados JUST FROM BEING A GROUND TYPE

Click to expand...

Not just from being a Ground type, but from being a ground type and disposing of Rotom-A, Gengar, Zapdos, maybe starmie. Just like Colossoil, which is often partnered with Gyarados, not Togekiss

Yoki said:

We're intenting to make a low-OU pokemon that shines witk Kiss. Why would Celebi bother with it when it already has Celetran? Not to mention that Celebi doesn't need parlysis or anti-status support.

Click to expand...

I'm talking about CM Passing Celebi here.

Yoki said:

Togekiss can set up on or kill every OU Special Wall, including Vaporeon and Celebi. That's not enough to make it top OU, because it still has mediocre speed and typing, suffers greatly from moveslot syndrome and can still be beaten by status. Like I said earlier, our CAP should, like Togekiss, need anti-status support to reliably beat Celebi. As long as one of the pair can do that, Blissey won't stop them.

Click to expand...

Notes:
Mediocre Typing: I highly doubt this things going to end up with bad typing
Status: I thought we were making it to switch in on status from Togekiss?
Moveslot Syndrome: Something tells me it's going to get all the moves it needs, and since we're depending on passing it boosts it's not going to have to spend spaces for stat uppers either.

NARFNra said:

Mediocre Typing: I highly doubt this things going to end up with bad typing

Click to expand...

It should. Not bad, but mediocre, inadapted to its other roles than partnering with Togekiss, the same way Togekiss' typing isn't so bad but inadapted to its role (he can't even take advantage of its unique Ghost immunity). Ground-type is the best type possible to beat Rotom-A, and that's why it's a bad choice : our CAP shouldn't be perfect.

Status: I thought we were making it to switch in on status from Togekiss?

Click to expand...

That's what Ground supporters want, but I think it should only be able to somewhat deal with status (like Togekiss), not be immune to it. Togekiss already has Heal Bell, but suffer from moveslot syndrome. It needs a cleric partner with Heal Bell/Safegard, or an offensive partner to make Hel Bell worth a moveslot. With Ground typing, status wouldn't be as much of an issue, and then you would be right and our CAP would be one step closer to the pit.

Moveslot Syndrome: Something tells me it's going to get all the moves it needs, and since we're depending on passing it boosts it's not going to have to spend spaces for stat uppers either.

Click to expand...

Thank you, that's exactly my point. Without Togekiss, it has moveslot syndrome, but with it, its slots are freed for something else and it can really do its job.

I'm talking about CM Passing Celebi here.

Click to expand...

I know that, but Togekiss would rather have all its many, many weaknesses covered and its counters dealt with by top-OU Heatran than just a low-OU CM receiver.

Yoki said:

That's what Ground supporters want, but I think it should only be able to somewhat deal with status (like Togekiss), not be immune to it. Togekiss already has Heal Bell, but suffer from moveslot syndrome. It needs a cleric partner with Heal Bell/Safegard, or an offensive partner to make Hel Bell worth a moveslot. With Ground typing, status wouldn't be as much of an issue, and then you would be right and we would have failed.

Click to expand...

So what, your ideal Togekiss for going with your CAP11 is something like Roost/Nasty Plot/Baton Pass/Heal Bell?

So now, our pair has one counter that's bad at everything else. Big deal.

Click to expand...

Really now? Because I use it all the time and it only checks like...almost every single special attacker in OU, plus a few physical ones (Breloom, Scizor, Metagross). Plus, unlike Blissey, it hits hard and has a slew of useful resistances.

Not just from being a Ground type, but from being a ground type and disposing of Rotom-A, Gengar, Zapdos, maybe starmie. Just like Colossoil, which is often partnered with Gyarados, not Togekiss

Click to expand...

The only way it's going to do Colossoil's job is if we make another Colossoil, which is impossible at this point because we don't have the secondary typing, stats, nor ability. ffs, we haven't even made the Pokemon yet, what are you on about?

We're intenting to make a low-OU pokemon that shines witk Kiss.

Click to expand...

no

General Description: Pick a good-but-not-great OU pokemon, and design the perfect teammate for it, similar to the way Celebi & Heatran, or Blissey & Skarmory complement each other so well on competitive teams.

Click to expand...

Sounds like Celebi and Skarmory, who do plenty of things besides support their designated teammate, but still work best when paired with that teammate. That's exactly the kind of success we should be striving for here, not "barely decent Pokemon that's only good when Togekiss is around". Really, why would you even want something like that on your team?

Okay, so this thing gets Ground Typing...if one of the main complaints is that it can't hit Ghosts, go look at Levitate.
Gengar, Rotom-App...the two main ghosts you'd face don't get hit by Ground either. So that's not really a point for Anti-Fighting

I voted Fighting because the other main option, ground, really just reminded me of Colossoil, and as we all know, Colossoil supports all flying types, not just Togekiss.

Voted Steel.

It's clear that Steel is the best choice, as it resists two of Togekiss weaknesses, and hits those that utilise them with STAB Super Effectivly. It lures in an immunity as well, and it's other two weaknesses can be switched in on. Togekiss can take the odd fighting-type move, and no Fighting-type is gonna stay in on the threat of STAB Air Slash, so Togekiss can Roost, and Fire type moves hit Togekiss' higher Sp.Def. So.. how is that not Synergy, as some people have been claiming?

The Steel Type also acheives the aim of the Fighting-type, defeating Blissey and Tyranitar. When was the last time you saw Blissey stay in on something like Metagross?

It's clear the STAB fanboys are out in full force again. Ground offers nothing to Togekiss at all, it's just a good STAB. Sure, it resists Rock, but it also lures bulky waters, who have Ice Beam to handle Togekiss, like flies. It also does nothing to stop Rotom-A, Gengar, Blissey, Scizor, and no sane Tyranitar is going to stay in.

Fighting also resists rock, but what sane Tyranitar/Blissey is gonna stay in on a Fighting-type? At least Tyranitar might try and EQ a Steel Type. Let alone things like Zapdos and Rotom-A who also need to be countered. Need I state that Rotom-A and Gengar carry Thunderbolt? About as close as a Fighting-type partner for Togekiss is gonna get already exists. It's called Machamp.

And, I stress this yet again, the way I see it the concept is to allow TOGEKISS to sweep, thus boosting it's use. By giving the primary typing of CAP11 a good STAB, which can aid sweeping, is NOT aiding the concept.

NARFNra said:

So what, your ideal Togekiss for going with your CAP11 is something like Roost/Nasty Plot/Baton Pass/Heal Bell?

Click to expand...

Obviously not, the point is not to do everything with one pokemon, but to share the load between Togekiss and CAP. You don't need Heal Bell if your partner has a way to deal with status.

About as close as a Fighting-type partner for Togekiss is gonna get already exists. It's called Machamp.

Click to expand...

Machamp is a physical beast with no support option... We could make something more similar to a specially offensive Hariyama with support options directed toward Togekiss.

And, I stress this yet again, the way I see it the concept is to allow TOGEKISS to sweep, thus boosting it's use. By giving the primary typing of CAP11 a good STAB, which can aid sweeping, is NOT aiding the concept.

Click to expand...

Nowhere was it stated that CAP11 should be Togekiss' slave. One of Togekiss' main assets is its versatility and supportive presence, so our CAP should also be able to take advantadge of that. There are also no rules stating that a Fighting type must be a physical, stand-alone sweeper.

Raikaria said:

Voted Steel.

It's clear that Steel is the best choice, as it resists two of Togekiss weaknesses, and hits those that utilise them with STAB Super Effectivly. It lures in an immunity as well, and it's other two weaknesses can be switched in on. Togekiss can take the odd fighting-type move, and no Fighting-type is gonna stay in on the threat of STAB Air Slash, so Togekiss can Roost, and Fire type moves hit Togekiss' higher Sp.Def. So.. how is that not Synergy, as some people have been claiming?

The Steel Type also acheives the aim of the Fighting-type, defeating Blissey and Tyranitar. When was the last time you saw Blissey stay in on something like Metagross?

It's clear the STAB fanboys are out in full force again. Ground offers nothing to Togekiss at all, it's just a good STAB. Sure, it resists Rock, but it also lures bulky waters, who have Ice Beam to handle Togekiss, like flies. It also does nothing to stop Rotom-A, Gengar, Blissey, Scizor, and no sane Tyranitar is going to stay in.

Fighting also resists rock, but what sane Tyranitar/Blissey is gonna stay in on a Fighting-type? At least Tyranitar might try and EQ a Steel Type. Let alone things like Zapdos and Rotom-A who also need to be countered. Need I state that Rotom-A and Gengar carry Thunderbolt? About as close as a Fighting-type partner for Togekiss is gonna get already exists. It's called Machamp.

And, I stress this yet again, the way I see it the concept is to allow TOGEKISS to sweep, thus boosting it's use. By giving the primary typing of CAP11 a good STAB, which can aid sweeping, is NOT aiding the concept.

Click to expand...

no it's not...

"General Description: Pick a good-but-not-great OU pokemon, and design the perfect teammate for it, similar to the way Celebi & Heatran, or Blissey & Skarmory complement each other so well on competitive teams."

actually they just have to compliment each other either offensively or defensively... i understand that at the celetran combo it helped heatran to switch in and cause major damage(because the OU players just use offensive ones, seriously where are the torment ones), but you can't say the same to skarmbliss.To summarize both of them can sweep and the two should be able to support each other to sweep.

anymays, aggreeing that the fighting type does'nt bring anything new to table,cause togekiss has acess to a fighting move and has bigger problems with eletric.
For that reason i voted ground, it's resist rock and is immunity to one of kiss weakness.

i know i know, the ice weakness, the flying ones, but seriously even though that know is not the right time to say this, but the ice weakness can be solved by a secondary typing or ability, and if we find out that the levitates ones are too much of a concern we can give it mold breaker, but that's poll jumping right know, and besides the point.

what i really want to stress out is that fighting type doesn't help anything at all , and the minor benefits that it can bring are better made by other types, so just reinforcing the rising_dusk and reachzero posts, let's thing exactly what we are doing people.

black_cotton said:

what i really want to stress out is that fighting type doesn't help anything at all , and the minor benefits that it can bring are better made by other types

Click to expand...

I wouldn't say defeating Blissey is a "minor benefit".

black_cotton said:

cause togekiss has acess to a fighting move and has bigger problems with eletric.

Click to expand...

The problem is that Ground doesn't really do anything to the electric type pokemon that Togekiss has trouble with, because they usually have either a) levitate (Rotom forms) or a b) Flying type (Zapdos)

Voted Ground.

As other people summed up, Ground has a nice Electric immunity and a Rock Resistance. It's not weak to SR, and yeah Ice move sucks but Togekiss can take some. Besides, the secondary type can fix the weakness to Ice. Fighting is a better offensive typing for Togekiss but I like to have it more defensively as Togekiss is a more defensive based pokemon. I didn't like the idea of Electric and Steel.

EDIT: Now i think of it, I know it's to soon to think about abilities, but an ability that absorbs Ice Moves might help. Like Heatran's Flash Fire.

ssbbm said:

I wouldn't say defeating Blissey is a "minor benefit".



The problem is that Ground doesn't really do anything to the electric type pokemon that Togekiss has trouble with, because they usually have either a) levitate (Rotom forms) or a b) Flying type (Zapdos)

Click to expand...

blissey wont enjoy stab eartquakes either, to the second part of your post let me bold for you what i said earlier...

"i know i know, the ice weakness and the flying ones, but seriously even though that now is not the right time to say this, but the ice weakness can be solved by a secondary typing or ability, and if we find out that the levitates ones are too much of a concern we can give it mold breaker, but that's poll jumping right know, and besides the point."

^this could cover blissey , gengar, rotom and other particular problem poke's can be solved by secondary tiping and/or movepools but right know it not the time to discuss this it's clearly pool jumping so let's stop for now shall we?.

black_cotton said:

blissey wont enjoy stab eartquakes either

Click to expand...

In order to benefit from Togekiss' unique ability to pass Nasty Plot, CAP11 should be specially offensive. Only STAB Fighting doesn't need high Atk to beat Blissey.

Voted Ground. I thought I was voting electric, but in the end, Ground won. It resists Rock and is immune to Electric, as you may know by now, which is rather better than electric's paltry single resist. Ground also gets Earthquake, and generally Stone Edge, and usually Superpower, giving it the tools to hit pure electric types, Zapdos, and Blissey/Ttar/Lax super effectively.

SJCrew said:

@ X-Act: Ground stops lightning from clipping Togekiss's cute little wings and still handles most of its main counters on both the offensive and defensive front. Fighting doesn't help much offensively nor defensively, and only amplifies its weakness to stuff like Zapdos and Rotom-A, who are almost always around the corner when Togekiss wants to do anything. When people think Fighting, they're thinking "oh, ttar and blissey!!!!", when they should be thinking "oh shit, now togekiss's counters can come in even easier!!!".

Click to expand...

I don't see why CAP11 should be trying to scare off Togekiss's counters. You can't get rid of Zapdos and Rotom-A if they never switches in.

Instead, it should be trying to lure them in. A Fighting-type Pokémon encourages Rotom to come in, and yet we can give it something in its movepool capable of Rotom-killing. (I'd want to have voted Psychic as it's even better at achieving this, but Fighting is the best of the options available for helping out Togekiss by luring its counters.)

callforjudgement said:

I don't see why CAP11 should be trying to scare off Togekiss's counters. You can't get rid of Zapdos and Rotom-A if they never switches in.

Instead, it should be trying to lure them in. A Fighting-type Pokémon encourages Rotom to come in, and yet we can give it something in its movepool capable of Rotom-killing. (I'd want to have voted Psychic as it's even better at achieving this, but Fighting is the best of the options available for helping out Togekiss by luring its counters.)

Click to expand...

I see where you're going with this. It's a good strategy in the standard metagame, where they might not suspect that your Fighting pokemon has a powerful Rock move to take down Zapdos.

Imagine the same scenario in CaP11's playtesting. Nobody there will think, "ooh, it's a fighting pokemon! Let's switch in Zapdos!" - they will know about the moves we've given it, they'll attack it with something else, and they'll save Zapdos for Togekiss.

Now, we could try to give CaP11 a lot of 'specific' moves - one for Zappy, one for Rotom, so many that it could never possibly run them all to 'leave people guessing.' That's what we tried with Krilowatt, though, and in the end it just ended up having a stunning movepool. Realistically, CaP11 will have a focused movepool. Everyone will know what it's capable of beating. If we want that Zapdos to switch in, we can't rely on luring it - we'll have to use mind-games, counters and complementary typing.

Voted Fighting

As stated by many people, the resistance to togekiss's rock weakness is very appealing and it allows CAP11 to be nuetral to togekiss's other weaknesses.

i would have voted for ground but I feel that fighting will give us more options later on in the process.

Allow me to expalin how I see the concept, and why I state that making CAP11 a sweeper will fail the concept.

Yes, CAP11 could benifit from Togekiss' presence as well, however, CAP11 is unlikly to be paired with Togekiss with CAP11 as the sweeper.

Why is this?

Firstly, if we're taking CAP11 down the offensive route, and Togekiss is it's partner, that would probobly relegate Togekiss to being a supporter, as it needs support to sweep itself.

In addittion, CAP11 would probobly take the route of being a Fighting or Ground type.

So, we have this sweeper CAP11, of a Ground or Fighting type, designed to work off Togekiss' support. What can Togekiss provide of real note?

Nasty Plot passing
Heal Bell
Thunder Wave
Wish

Firstly, not all of those will fit on a moveset. Bear this in mind.

If I wanted something to provide Paralysis support, I would choose Jirachi over Togekiss anyday, especially as Jirachi provides better Synergy with a Ground-typed CAP11, and roughly even with a Fighting-type. Jirachi has better stats, stronger and more reliable STAB Flinching move, and a typing that dosen't get mauled by SR.

If I wanted to pass Special Attack, then I'd use Celebi, and pass Calm Minds. Recover makes Celebi MUCH more likly to get the pass off, and it's higher bulk and speed make it even more likly. Not to mention, yet again, Celebi does far better than Togekiss when you look at a Ground-typed CAP11. Oh, and did I mention it has Heal Bell too? And Swords Dance, just to make it even less predictable, and allow CAP11 to abuse Earhtquake/Close Combat, which Togekiss cannot aid [Best it can aid is Earth Power and Aura Sphere/Focus Blast]

Let's not forget these pokemon are more unpredictble than Togekiss. Togekiss isn't really a threat without paralysis support, and if it's spreading it, it loses coverage/recovery/boosting. Celebi and Jirachi are threats in their own right.

Basically Togekiss is outclassed as a supporter, and if we attempt to make CAP11 rely on Togekiss' support, Togekiss' useage will NOT rise, simply beacause Celebi and Jirachi do the job much better.

This is why I feel CAP11 should be the supporter. This is why I feel giving CAP11 a good offensive STAB, and few resistances is a bad idea. This is why I always say, if we make CAP11 a sweeper, we'll fail the concept. This is why I'm against the Fighting and Ground types, and for the Steel type, because otherwise, people will want a sweeper... because Ground and Fighting are not exactly supporting/defensive types.

However, in all honesty, at this point, I'm fighting a battle that's probobly already lost...

Oh, and defeating Blissey is minor, as a Togekiss with Aura Sphere, Nasty Plot and Roost outstalls Blissey, sets up, and 2HKO's.

Raikaria said:

[Well-reasoned post]

Click to expand...

So basing this solely on CaP sweeping while Togekiss supports isn't going to work. We need that to be an option, but we also need CaP to be able to take out some of Togekiss' counters and perhaps spread paralysis for it so that 'Kiss can sweep once in a while.

A key question then is, which counters do we pick on? We can't cover them all, in fact we musn't try or we'll create an overpowered monster.

How about we brainstorm the pokemon which threaten Togekiss but don't harm Celebi or Jirachi? Those, ideally, we should be able to damage. On the other hand, we probably don't want to endanger those pokemon which threaten Celebi and Jirachi, but which can be handled already by Togekiss.

EDIT:

Answers might include Rotom, Jolteon, Electivire, Cresselia, Salamance and Dragonite. Sure, Blissey and Zapdos hurt Togekiss, but they're big problems for Jirachi as well.

If CaP is a special attacker, it can probably cope with Rotom... especially if it's a Ground pokemon with a Nasty Plot behind it. Ground would also help with Jolteon and Electivire: it would resist their most powerful attacks, and I'm sure they wouldn't like a STAB EQ even if CaP had low attack. On the other hand, Cresselia would be a big problem that we had to try to respond to later in the pokemon.

I don't really see how a fighting-type would help against any of those options above. I'd certainly say it would have more problems than Ground. A Steel pokemon would be afraid of the dragons, who often pack Fire attacks, and would have no resistance to Jolteon or Electivire who would certainly be threats once it was weakened a bit.

An Electric pokemon would match up reasonably well, as long as it had some bulk behind it and some good coverage attacks. That said, it wouldn't be using its STAB much because Electivire, Jolteon, Salamance, Dragonite, Cresselia and Rotom can all take a specal-based Electric attack quite well... and that's actually the entire list.

So, I still think Ground is the way to go.

Wow, get back from a 3 week vacation and find CAP11 has already started...

I voted for Ground. I don't no why there is so much arguing when there isn't a huge difference between the two typings. Defensively, Ground trades a Electric immunity for a Ice weakness. Fighting also has Dark and Bug resists... but Togekiss already resists Bug. As for the Dark resist, Ttar is the only user of any non-Pursuit dark move, and a Fighting type should never be hit by Pursuit. Offensively it mostly comes down to fighting hitting TTar harder and hitting Bronzong, compared to Ground hitting Jolteon (and a roosting Zapdos). Since a STAB EQ will already hurt Ttar, the Trade off comes down to Jolteon vs Bronzong. I prefer being able to beat Jolteon, as would Togekiss.

I voted for Steel because of the resistances that make other Pokemon in the metagame great, such as Scizor, Jirachi, Magnezone, and Skarmory. This also leaves the options for creative dual typing, such as Steel/Grass or Steel/Ghost, the Ghost option taking care of that pesky fighting weakness that everybody is so concerned about while still drawing the ground-type moves for Togekiss to switch in on.

The other types are great, but a compliment to Togekiss specifically is better done with Steel than Ground, Fighting, or Electric, though the rest are amazing types for the current metagame. I would love to see a Fighting/Electric come out, but that would compliment many other Flying types as does the Ground type.

I voted for electric because it is only weak to ground. This is what togekiss loves to see. CAP 11 will be made very bulky and have a recovery move and if you cannot hit it with a super effective attack it makes life very hard for your enemy.

Ian15 said:

CAP 11 will be made very bulky and have a recovery move

Click to expand...

Why?

Togekiss is already quite (specially) bulky and has a recovery move. It can even pass it. There are good arguments for making CaP physically bulky (as a complement to 'Kiss) or specially bulky (if it's Ground, to reduce the Ice weakness), but it's not a foregone conclusion, and I'd be wary about doing both.

Giving it good special and physical defenses and a recovery move sounds like power creep to me. We'd just have a 'really powerful pokemon' on our hands, and it wouldn't need Togekiss' help at all.

I think a Steel-Ghost type would be a good choice. It would only have weaknesses to Ground and Fire, and if you add Levitate to the mix, 1 weakness, making it a very viable wall, with 1 or 2 weaknesses, 9ish resistances, and 3 imunities :0!