CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 6a - Ability Discussion

I would say any ability that would negate or cause a benefit from a status would be the best for this duo. That is Limber, Guts, Quick Feet (though not entirely needed because all the base stat suggestions were over 100 for speed), Immunity, Vital Spirit, or Synchronize.

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With this in mind, I pick Guts. Guts, as somebody up there said, boosts attack with all four Statuses you can inflict at will. Guts and Quick Feet are the only abilities that do this IIRC. Quick Feet is not needed, because there's speed enough on CAP 11. Therefore, the obvious choice is Guts.

Motor Drive seems like the big winner to me. It could potentially Baton Pass this benefit to Togekiss, and, more importantly, it punishes foes for using electric attacks, something a perfect mate for togekiss should really have.

Volt Absorb pulls a similar duty. But it's better defensively whereas Motor Drive is better offensively and is baton-passable.



Limber and Synchronyze (and I guess Guts) offer immunity or punishment for paralysis, but will not offer any defense against electric attacks which sucks considering that a perfect mate for togekiss would really need something to defend it from ice and/or electricity and, thus far, this CAP has neither.




I choose either Volt absorb or, preferably, motor drive for that reason.

CAP 11 doesn't need an overpowered offensive or defensive ability like Simple or Magic Guard.

CAP11 probably wants an ability that nullifies a certain status, since Status is one of Togekiss's banes. Limber and Immunity help CAP11 absorb Togekiss's most hated statuses. Vital Spirit is also an option I guess If we want sleep immunity.

hmmm.... has anyone mentioned Colossoil's "Rebound" ability for that purpose? (that purpose being punishing and nullifying status effects)

There is one ability that I have in mind that hasn't been discussed yet. That ability is Trace

Yes, we just used Trace on Krilowatt (though no one really uses it due to Magic Guard), but Trace is almost like "a bit of everything" in terms of covering Togekiss' weaknesses.

Trace helps CAP11 swap into Electivire and Jolteon, two of Togekiss' major opponents. These two Pokemon are immune to Togekiss' Thunder Wave and resist Air Slash, while retaliating back with STAB SE Electric attacks. Although Tracing Rotom-A or Zapdos' abilities do little to help, both of these Pokemon can be Thunder Waved (also, Rotom-A isn't even technically a Togekiss counter) and neutered. Oh and CAP11 also beats down Rotom-A due to its STAB Dark attacks.

Trace can allow it to switch into Blissey, who will attempt to status Togekiss (yes I know Togekiss gets Heal Bell...). By snagging Natural Cure , CAP11 can switch out later and free itself from the ailments. You can also snag Natural Cures from Celebi or Starmie should it be statused and you really want it cleared (the latter hits really hard though so you better prepare yourself in one way or the other)

Aside from those, there aren't really a whole lot of other important things you'd do with Trace. You can snag a Flash Fire from Heatran who could potentially trouble Togekiss thanks to its super powered Fire attacks or something. You can Trace Magnet Pull and eliminate Magnezone, who gives mono-attacking Togekiss problems. Heck, you could even snag Serene Grace from Jirachi and hope that you can revenge flinch it ^_^

Why not Marvel Scale? It doesn't really work flavorwise, but it is an interesting idea. Instead of being immune to a certain status, it would become harder to take down by the physical moves Togekiss loathes. Cool right?

Ok let me start off by saying that I support Trace, Limber, Synchronize, Immunity, and Guts. With that saidI think Poison Heal could be a good ability because you could put on a Toxic Orb and then you block all status while you heal yourself. Now at first I thought that this might be broken, but I looked at the stat spreads and this thing doesn't look like its going to be really bulky. And this thing probably won't get spore so its not like we are making another Breloom. Just saying...

I like the idea of the Trace strategy.

I also really like the Motor Drive strategy. I always thought this was fun when playing with Gyarados and Electivire. It seems a bit odd flavor wise, but it fits the idea of working with a flying type.

And of course the 'benefit from status' or 'immune to status' ones are all viable as well... Could always be a choice between 'em.

I think Quick Feet remains the best choice despite the unfortunate decision to decide stats without reference to ability. Unlike Guts, Quick Feet gives immunity to the speed drop of paralysis, meaning the CAP can switch in to paralyzing moves even if it hasn't activated a status orb yet. Also, the CAP is specially based, so the attack drop from switching into burn, an advantage for Guts, is less of a concern; furthermore, Guts would undermine the special focus of this CAP. And of course Vital Spirit, Marvel Scale, Limber and Immunity are all of situational usefulness and do not counteract the problems created by most (or all, in the case of Marvel Scale) statuses.

Additionally, active Quick Feet makes this CAP a very interesting beast indeed, fast enough to outrun most or all Scarfers yet steadily dying from toxic poison--unless it switched into paralysis aimed at Togekiss, which makes it more effective and emphasizes its partnership with Togekiss.

Cuiv said:

I think Quick Feet remains the best choice despite the unfortunate decision to decide stats without reference to ability. Unlike Guts, Quick Feet gives immunity to the speed drop of paralysis, meaning the CAP can switch in to paralyzing moves even if it hasn't activated a status orb yet (and of course Vital Spirit, Marvel Scale, Limber and Immunity are all of situational usefulness and do not counteract the problems created by most (or all, in the case of Marvel Scale) statuses.

Additionally, active Quick Feet makes this CAP a very interesting beast indeed, fast enough to outrun most or all Scarfers yet steadily dying from toxic poison--unless it switched into paralysis aimed at Togekiss, which makes it more effective and emphasizes its partnership with Togekiss.

Motor Drive and Volt Absorb are so absurd given the typing that they should not even enter the discussion.

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@sentence in bold: FYI, I've been infracted for posting such reasoning in this thread. =/


Anywho, the factors you've mentioned have shifted my support from Limber to Quick Feet.

I also like Jibaku's proposal of Trace. I enjoy screwing my opponent over with Porygon2, but its comparatively lackluster power, speed, and typing have frequently left me wanting more. Trace CAP11 would be beast. >8]

EDIT:

PK Gaming said:

Proposing Volt Absorb which is almost perfect for Gyarados.

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Fixed.

Proposing Volt Absorb which is almost perfect for Togekiss. You can avoid Paralysis or strong Electric STAB moves, or Baton pass on a slow electric move to provide Cap 11 with an 25% HP heal and a stat boost.

The problem with Quick Feet, IMO, is that you can just put a Toxic Orb on the Pokemon, thus making you THE fastest unscarfed Pokemon, thus making you
a)unchecked by Starmie, ScarfTar, etc.,
b) making you faster than every OU Pokemon bar Aerodactyl, Jolteon, and Crobat with NO speed EVs, allowing for sets of 252 ATK/ 252 SPATK to be viable. (Assuming Base 110 speed) and
c) due to the necessity of Bulk Up on Fighting type Pokemon, able to make a BU Set that gives you a lot of speed, attack, and bulkiness.

These factors, I believe, will hurt very many offensive teams who will not be able to survive this type of speed and power, and who rely on revenge killing to work.

Lucario_Guy said:

mini-modding

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Don't mini-mod. That actually is a rule violation. There was nothing wrong with the way Cuiv voiced his (or her) disapproval for Motor Drive/Volt Absorb. He (or she) doesn't have the power to enforce it on anyone, it's basically just a turn of phrase.

I happen to think both of those abilities are both a bit too contrived for this CAP, and Limber accomplishes what we really want (switches in on Thunder Wave) without generally favoring say Gyarados or Zapdos over Togekiss.

I like Thick Fat as it provides useful resists without helping another flying type more (maybe Zapdos). Plus CAP11 doesn't have many resists to switch in on so these two can be very useful.

Limber and Natural Cure are also very nice options to prevent Thunder Wave annoyance while not making CAP11 broken or better for another Pokemon to team up with. Shed Skin falls under the same category as Natural Cure, a useful but not broken option.

I'll also throw support to Quick Feet. It helps mitigate paralysis, though not entirely, but it also opens us up for a Nasty Pass into Burn Orb sweep which is an interesting option not yet explored. This one, along with Limber are rather specific which should go well with CAP11 who is shaping up to be a very potent force.

As for Serene Grace, I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't kill to have it on CAP11. The Hax Attack is what Togekiss is made for so CAP11 would fit on the same team, plus it's wicked fun!

Synchronize is cool too because it makes Togekiss have to either support CAP11 via Heal Bell or take advantage of paralysis. The only problem is it's uncontrollable in that you can't guarantee paralysis, maybe you'll Poison or Burn someone instead? Plus it means CAP11 has to get hit to be useful which might make supporting him inefficient.


I really don't want Motor Drive or Volt Absorb as that would make CAP11 the best Gyarados partner, not Togekiss'. Plus a Nasty Pass into Motor Drive is crazy talk. These are the abilities that make Electivire, and to a degree Jolteon, useful.

Deck Knight said:

Don't mini-mod. That actually is a rule violation. There was nothing wrong with the way Cuiv voiced his (or her) disapproval for Motor Drive/Volt Absorb. He (or she) doesn't have the power to enforce it on anyone, it's basically just a turn of phrase.

I happen to think both of those abilities are both a bit too contrived for this CAP, and Limber accomplishes what we really want (switches in on Thunder Wave) without generally favoring say Gyarados or Zapdos over Togekiss.

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In all honesty, I whole-heartedly agree with Cuiv's disapproval of MD/VA.

And mini-modding wasn't my intent. I was simply informing a peer that mods may infract him/her for using flavor as a reason, just as I've been infracted for it.

I support shed skin. It isn't broken and gets rid of status.

I tend to disagree on Limber, and it comes down to typing.

Stat wise, this is shaping up to be a powerful Pokemon indeed, with phenomenal typing, and a major advantage in special attacks. Limber may be used on Hitmonlee, but his stats don't allow him to graduate into a major player. Persian doesn't fair much better, and when was the last time you fought a Ditto?

Natural Cure at least requires a switch out, and like Limber, Shed Skin is limited to Pokemon that do not generally appear in OU play. In order to be successfully countered on a regular basis, a Pokemon with this typing and stats is overpowered when you put status immunity into the equation.

Don't get me wrong, I am fully in support of an ability that lowers the threat of status, but an outright immunity I think is the wrong way to go. Better stratagies, more effective when you take into account Baton Pass, are possible under something like Quick Feet (which for the record, I think is a horrible idea)

So far my favorites are unburden and trace. A lot of good rasons have been stated for both and they match the typing. I agree with cuiv, actually I have been trying to say for a while that the abilities should match the typing and stats and even to an extent the artwork. Right now the priority should be additional help that would benefit togekiss to the exclusion of most other OU pokemon. So far my vote goes to unburden due to it's effectiveness and diversity.

jynx KB said:

I tend to disagree on Limber, and it comes down to typing.

Stat wise, this is shaping up to be a powerful Pokemon indeed, with phenomenal typing, and a major advantage in special attacks. Limber may be used on Hitmonlee, but his stats don't allow him to graduate into a major player. Persian doesn't fair much better, and when was the last time you fought a Ditto?

Something like Special Guts doesn't get rid of the possible Hax of paralysis, thugh it can just as easily turn it into a possible advantage.

Natural Cure at least requires a switch out, and like Limber, Shed Skin is limited to Pokemon that do not generally appear in OU play. In order to be successfully countered on a regular basis, a Pokemon with this typing and stats is overpowered when you put status immunity into the equation.

Don't get me wrong, I am fully in support of an ability that lowers the threat of status, but an outright immunity I think is the wrong way to go. Better stratagies, more effective when you take into account Baton Pass, are possible under something like Special guts or Quick Feet (which for the record, I think is a horrible idea)

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We have Poison Heal in OU, Kitsunoh was given Limber, Fidgit has Vital Spirit. We've seen Motor Drive, Volt Absorb, Flash Fire, Own Tempo, Immunity. Status immunities don't mean much

My problem with Unburden is that it makes CAP11 more independent and less reliant on partnering with 'kiss. It can't, as suggested, switch in on a SE hit aimed at 'kiss and trigger a weakness berry, since those only activate if the holder is weak to the attack type (to use the example, Wacan berry won't activate when you're hit by Thunderbolt unless you're weak to Electric).

I find that Quick Feet would make CAP11 the ultimate revenge killer instead of Togekiss's ultimate teammate.

This may have been mentioned before, but I think Volt Absorb and Motor Drive would drive CAP11 to support a Pokemon more like Gyarados instead of Togekiss.

Still supporting my original decision of Limber or Synchronize, but Shed Skin sounds good as well.

I was hoping to avoid having to do this, but due to the trends in this thread thus far, I am forced to do so. This is my doomsday post for CAP11. This stage of the CAP is where we "make or break" this concept, and I don't want to break it, so hear me out here. I support...

Motor Drive / Volt Absorb

CAP11 must get one of these abilities or a custom ability that works in a similar manner. Why, you may ask? Think about some real-time scenarios where Togekiss is out. Immediately as Togekiss comes out, the first switch your opponent will always make, if possible, is to Rotom-A, Zapdos, Electivire, or Jolteon. Do you know what all of these Pokemon have in common? Enormously powerful STAB Electric-type attacks. The best we could do without one of these abilities is force ourselves to include a third, Ground-type Pokemon into our core that somehow complements both CAP11 and Togekiss, and the likelihood of that succeeding is basically nil. That isn't a perfect mate as the concept defines it anymore, that's an almost-kind-of-helpful Pokemon you might use with Togekiss.

Now, you could make a case that these attacks aren't so bad if you can switch in a Ground-type. But wait, CAP11 isn't a Ground-type! It's a Fighting-type! Because of its typing, CAP11 loses the ability to switch directly into.... Almost every single Togekiss check or counter that exists. This list includes Jolteon, Rotom-A, Dragonite, Tyranitar, and Zapdos. The only thing its typing helps it switch in on is Tyranitar, who can still Superpower you to death. What does this tell you? Well, it tells you the following...Okay, maybe that's a bit dramatic, but it isn't wrong by any right. A core requires that at least some switching go on between the members of the core. If absolutely nothing that checks or counters Togekiss, bar Tyranitar, can be checked or beaten by CAP11, then there is no core. There is only an offensive Pokemon that might sometimes end up paired with Togekiss.

I want you all to sit and think about this for a bit. The Electric-type immunity (or resistance at least, for Christ's sake) is so utterly critical to the success of CAP11 as a "perfect mate" and 2-Pokemon core that I cannot comprehend that we're thinking of other options first.

If we give it an Electric immunity, why would we use CAP11 with Togekiss rather than Gyarados?

It's bulkness should take most of those attacks. Trace shuts down jolteon and a stab dark attack can Slay rotom. If you scarf CAP with trace it would be a great partner without electric immunity. That sad, electric immunity would help, but I can't think of an ability that fits the type or art.

Leman said:

If we give it an Electric immunity, why would we use CAP11 with Togekiss rather than Gyarados?

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Because CAP11's typing does not threaten the bulky Water-type Pokemon that Gyarados hates nearly as well as Pokemon like Electivire and Jolteon do. Those two Electric-type Pokemon are still far more perfect mates to Gyarados than our CAP11 could ever hope to be, even if we give CAP11 Motor Drive/Volt Absorb.