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NP: UU - Silent Night
- Thread starter reachzero
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I would like to address Eo's statement about "optimal" and "suboptimal" pokemon. A pokemon is deemed suboptimal because using it puts you at a disadvantage against common metagame elements, or it is in a vacuum just flat out worse than something else (see: Gardevoir vs. Alakazam), or typically has to be used in place of something much more useful in the metagame (sort of drawing a blank on an example of this). This is sometimes acceptable if you need it to serve a specific niche (Gardevoir over 'Zam and Blastoise over Milotic are good examples of this), but in general you have a far weaker team structure simply to fulfill some niche purpose. Rain forces you to do this. Rain is not incredibly common, but it forces you to play an entirely different game against it.
Haha was that a reference to my team Smurf?
The last few pages about Rain have put me at a loss for words. It's simply scary how biased and incapable of argument so many of you are. I'm finding it hard not to minimod. Seriously, you'd think that, with each post, the poster and his opponents were the only players who existed playing UU.
Most of these posts aren't even worth reading, let alone responding to. Yay, yet another story of someone preying on someone else's robotic ignorance or uncaring attitude! (What? You mean that that non-Swift-Swimmer could be trying to set up Rain!?!? ZOMG SRSLY!>!??!?!?!?) That's unfortunately all I can think to say about this. I have to thank EUM for posting, lol, but it's funny just how fruitless it was as basically everyone ignored it.
Most of these posts aren't even worth reading, let alone responding to. Yay, yet another story of someone preying on someone else's robotic ignorance or uncaring attitude! (What? You mean that that non-Swift-Swimmer could be trying to set up Rain!?!? ZOMG SRSLY!>!??!?!?!?) That's unfortunately all I can think to say about this. I have to thank EUM for posting, lol, but it's funny just how fruitless it was as basically everyone ignored it.
While I agree with your stance that rain is not broken, the latter part of your statement does not logically follow from the former part. "If one is prepared for rain, one is underprepared for everything else" does not imply "if one is prepared for Team X, one is underprepared for everything else." Indeed, this would be silly, as it is relatively easy to be prepared for a team of 6 Normal-type Pokemon--e.g. Kangaskhan, Tauros, Swellow, Zangoose, Ursaring, and Linoone--without being weak to other types of teams.
The only implication that can be safely drawn out from Flare's point in this instance is: "if one is prepared for everything else, one is underprepared for rain," which is more directly relevant to the argument that rain is broken; your argument, while sound in itself, is derived from a bloated caricature of his logic.
I think one of the biggest problems with rain is the prevailing attitude regarding its use; too many people wish to dismiss rain as a niche playstyle. The fact of the matter at the end of the day when to grandmother's house you go, however, is that rain has been, is, and will always be a UU playstyle, whether it's viewed as a subset of hyper offense (a difficult categorization to make, considering Flare's exceptional, strikingly conservative rain teams in the past) or a hybrid of several styles. After considering rain to be a valid playstyle rather than a gimmicky niche, think about this: would anyone ever consider banning or weakening stall in OU? Answer: no.
Therefore, the banning of Damp Rock would be foolish in my eyes. Just because rain restricts the use of certain playstyles does not mean that rain is broken, just like the fact that stall in OU restricts the use of certain playstyles does not mean that stall is broken. Centralization is not an argument. Period.
Rather, if rain is causing considerable issues not related to centralization, people need to pinpoint the Pokemon that are problematic. Once rain can be considered a "common battle condition" (which it easily can be, if one takes "common" to mean "easily set up if the user wishes it"), Pokemon like Ludicolo and Kabutops can be nominated as suspects. The suspect-testing process is not meant to respond to centralization; if it did so, it would be violating its own establishment--contradicting, in a sense, previous votes, which were made under certain (but admittedly loose) guidelines.
In my eyes, banning a Pokemon rather than focusing on the subject of rain in general would preserve the integrity of the process, at the worst, and allow us to move past the bickering, at the best. I, at least, would rather discuss "Kabutops under rain" rather than "rain"--the former is more condensed and, consequentially, leads to more focused forms of debate. This type of focused discussion also limits the amount of personal experience that can be thrown into the rain debate--or, at least, refines that experience, since people can more easily focus on Kabutops' (or Ludicolo's, if he is deemed more threatening) particular role in their rain battles.
Well, I don't think it's completely true that rain forces you to run suboptimal Pokemon on all teams, but I see where it might be necessary for some teams.
That being said, I don't really have any qualms with your definition; however, from the way I see it, you have just described a rain team. Suboptimal Pokemon (rain sweepers), weaker team structure (a typical rain team's defensive core is comprised of three Pokemon at the very most), forces you to play an entirely different game (unless you consider extreme offense a typical play style).
Going further in-depth, I think it's a given that almost all rain sweepers are suboptimal Pokemon. Gorebyss and Ludicolo are rarely seen out of rain because of their crippling lack of Speed. Omastar and Qwilfish run different sets outside of rain because the sets they run under rain are suboptimal in common battle conditions. Kabutops is probably the only "good" rain sweeper (and Toxicroak, I guess, if it really counts as a rain sweeper). Just like other rain sweepers, these other suboptimal Pokemon, like Poliwrath and Quagsire, become exponentially more useful under rain.
I believe my statement makes sense. If we are to assume one cannot prepare for rain and everything else, then it logically follows that nobody can prepare for stall and everything else - because in this case, everything else includes rain teams as well, and we already assumed that we could not prepare for rain and everything else (which included stall).
Your example team is easy to prepare for; however, my point was that there exists teams that are as or more difficult to prepare for as it is to prepare for rain.
I completely and strongly agree with the rest of your post.
I'm fairly certain that Flare's point implies the latter "everything else" (besides stall in your example) to mean "everything else excluding rain." He is trying to say that although it is not possible to prepare for rain while also preparing for other styles like stall, offense, and bulky offense, it is very much possible to prepare for something such as stall while also preparing for offense, bulky offense, hyper offense, etc. In other words, everything non-rain. I think he's attempting to pinpoint rain as the culprit, the one style of play that forces a team to be underprepared for other styles of play.
Given the above as the basis of his argument, your statement does not logically follow. Flare is saying that indeed it *is* possible to be prepared for "stall and everything else" provided that the everything else does not, of course, include rain. This is why he suggests that rain is broken.
I think that the iissue with Flare's argument is this: why rain? If one cannot be prepared for both rain and for, say, balance, then why is balance not the culprit? Why are we not banning Milotic or Registeel instead of Kabutops or Ludicolo? Or Leftovers instead of Damp Rock? If rain forces one to underprepare for balance, then is it not also true that balance forces one to underprepare for rain?
That's what I was trying to say. I was not implying FlareBlitz said otherwise; rather, I was basing that point off of his point. Basically, I am including rain in "everything else"; I'm not sure as to why the case should be any different. If rain is eliminated from the equation, you have one less team to prepare for - the argument changes completely.
Okay. That's much clearer, and I agree with you.
i think steelix is a really good pokemon right now, i've heard of other users using it but mostly for sr and roar purposes, which is good because he is a great answer to rotom but i really like gyro ball/explosion/earthquake iron ball right now. this things packs a wallop, despite a pretty meh attack score, but what else would you expect from a 150 gyro ball o_o
other pokemon i like is tauros (it kills me to say this because i love kangy) but his speed and power is very helpful. i think i still like kangy better because of scrappy but intimidate/350 speed is no laughing matter.
i think we have gotten some new interesting meta trends appearing although a lot of players feel comfortable sticking with what works - however, they need to be careful since top players are ready for this.
i have a question - assuming both teams have sr on the field, while one has a spinner trying to spin away for moltres while the other has a rotom to absorb the spins - who is in the better position? i dont want to get too technical but is the spinner or the ghost basically in the better position. the reason i ask is although the ghost "counters the spinner", the spinner has plenty of methods to lure in the ghost, trap the ghost, which likely supports the team much more than the spinner, whos job is basically to spin for moltres.
other pokemon i like is tauros (it kills me to say this because i love kangy) but his speed and power is very helpful. i think i still like kangy better because of scrappy but intimidate/350 speed is no laughing matter.
i think we have gotten some new interesting meta trends appearing although a lot of players feel comfortable sticking with what works - however, they need to be careful since top players are ready for this.
i have a question - assuming both teams have sr on the field, while one has a spinner trying to spin away for moltres while the other has a rotom to absorb the spins - who is in the better position? i dont want to get too technical but is the spinner or the ghost basically in the better position. the reason i ask is although the ghost "counters the spinner", the spinner has plenty of methods to lure in the ghost, trap the ghost, which likely supports the team much more than the spinner, whos job is basically to spin for moltres.
I just would like to address this part of your post for now. In general I agree with the idea here that rain uses suboptimal pokemon in "common battle conditions" - the field is clear of weather, Stealth Rock is up, maybe a layer of Spikes - but that is irrelevant.
If you are using rain you are making a common battle condition for every single battle you enter. The Pokemon then are for sure not suboptimal - quite the opposite. With one little bit of support (A Pokemon with the move Rain Dance, preferably wielding a Damp Rock) you have made yourself a battle condition that will happen in every single battle you enter. Sure, from the defender, non-rain user's point of view, rain is a niche role that you hope pops up as little as possible because of the massive amount of thinking it provokes. But if you are the one using rain, your common battle conditions are vastly different. Your battles all have rain in them, and generally this prevents entry hazards from going up also, as well as provoking a totally different mindset for the defensive player. The defensive player, more times than not, are using a suboptimal Pokemon in using Poliwrath or Gardevoir or Quagsire, but the rain user is always using these "suboptimal" Pokemon to their arguably most optimal standpoint, every time they enter a battle. The person trying to prepare for rain is at a loss every single time they play something not rain, but the person playing rain controls which of their Pokemon is at a loss or not.
I'm kinda just throwing ideas out here that I haven't thought through too well, but I think they apply and can be helped along so we can get this right.
The words optimal and suboptimal need to go. An "optimal" Pokemon vs. rain will be suboptimal vs. other playstyles just as an "optimal" Pokemon vs. stall will be suboptimal vs. other playstyles. Why do I use quotation marks? Because "optimal" shouuld be defined relative to your team, and not relative to the type of team you're facing. If your team has a stall weakness, you can stick bulky Will-O-Wisp Mismagius on it to alleviate the intensity of your problem. If your team has a rain weakness, you can stick a Poliwrath on it to alleviate the intensity of your problem. Notice the parallel structure here.
The optimal Pokemon occupying any spot on a person's team is the Pokemon that provides the user the best chance of winning given the rest of the team. If the team can't stand up to rain, then a Poliwrath, an anti-weather Gardevoir, or a Golduck may indeed be optimal for that team. Once placed onto the team, these Pokemon should be supported by the rest of the team to allow them to function against non-rain teams as well. This is how Pokemon has always worked.
So unless people want to stick to the "rain forces you to be worse against other playstyles" argument (which is, of course, flawed because any style does the same, not just rain exclusively; stall forces you to be worse against rain, for example), the words optimal and suboptimal have no place in this discussion, I think.
The optimal Pokemon occupying any spot on a person's team is the Pokemon that provides the user the best chance of winning given the rest of the team. If the team can't stand up to rain, then a Poliwrath, an anti-weather Gardevoir, or a Golduck may indeed be optimal for that team. Once placed onto the team, these Pokemon should be supported by the rest of the team to allow them to function against non-rain teams as well. This is how Pokemon has always worked.
So unless people want to stick to the "rain forces you to be worse against other playstyles" argument (which is, of course, flawed because any style does the same, not just rain exclusively; stall forces you to be worse against rain, for example), the words optimal and suboptimal have no place in this discussion, I think.
Eo (and others) I am not ignoring you, I'm actually reading all the posts in this thread and will make quick comments if I need to. But school starts for me next week and I'm preparing for that, so my in-depth arguments to posts will have to wait until a bit later :)
I don't think we should put Rain on the same level of organization as stall and offense. Rain is a particular strategy, not a class of strategies - as has been mentioned, there is hardly any diversity to rain teams. It's a lot like Spike-stacking - there are certain pokemon you are guaranteed to have several of, such as Swellow, Moltres, Scyther, Donphan, and remember Froslass? Obviously any other type of weather team is an apt comparison as well. There are other strategies within offense, such as lure + sweeper, which don't take up entire teams but that you still need to be ready for.
So when you're putting Rain on an equivalent level with offense or stall, you're really pointing out that a specific type of offense is just as hard to prepare for as all of offense (excluding rain since you're calling it separate) or all of stall. This is sort of like arguing that Skymin-S wasn't broken because you didn't have to prepare for it any more than you had to prepare for Steel-types. People find it reasonable that you should have to devote a certain portion of your team's focus to beating offense or stall, but find it suspect to have to devote the same portion to beating rain, because "offense" and "stall" comprise way more tactics, teams, and pokemon than rain does.
So when you're putting Rain on an equivalent level with offense or stall, you're really pointing out that a specific type of offense is just as hard to prepare for as all of offense (excluding rain since you're calling it separate) or all of stall. This is sort of like arguing that Skymin-S wasn't broken because you didn't have to prepare for it any more than you had to prepare for Steel-types. People find it reasonable that you should have to devote a certain portion of your team's focus to beating offense or stall, but find it suspect to have to devote the same portion to beating rain, because "offense" and "stall" comprise way more tactics, teams, and pokemon than rain does.
More important than rain incorporating fewer pokemon, tactics, etc. is that it represents a small portion of the metagame, but is quite powerful when run into. It is like running into Trick Room or Baton Pass or some shit (except not nearly as gimmicky and obviously much more powerful). Having an adequate counter for Baton Pass is already annoying, but a baton pass team can never win if you have an adequate counter to it, while a good rain player can punch through you fairly easily through your checks. Ultimately I don't think rain is overpowered because the better player still wins the majority of the time, but it widens the skill gap much more than I would like to be possible.
Yes, there is some confusion about the terms "optimal" and "suboptimal." Rain sweepers are suboptimal in the context of the typical UU team (ie in "common battling conditions"), but when you control the battling conditions and "make it rain" you have the power to make your 'mons very optimal. On the other hand, the opponent has no control over what team you are playing, and your use of rain turns some mons that are otherwise optimal completely suboptimal in a much bigger way than stall or offense can.
Yes, there is some confusion about the terms "optimal" and "suboptimal." Rain sweepers are suboptimal in the context of the typical UU team (ie in "common battling conditions"), but when you control the battling conditions and "make it rain" you have the power to make your 'mons very optimal. On the other hand, the opponent has no control over what team you are playing, and your use of rain turns some mons that are otherwise optimal completely suboptimal in a much bigger way than stall or offense can.
I am not the best battler out there, but I am not a bad player. As an average player I've got to say I've never had much of a problem with rain based teams. Surely they hit hard but they are very easily countered if you take away there momentum. There are far more broken things out there that we should be discussing than rain because we've heard it all before and the argument is just going back and forward and not achieving anything, just like it did last time.
If you want a broken example of rain, play NU, where there isn't milotic/venusaur/registeel/toxicroak/rotom there to counter the threats.
If you want a broken example of rain, play NU, where there isn't milotic/venusaur/registeel/toxicroak/rotom there to counter the threats.
I actually wasn't referring specifically to you when making my post. What I'm annoyed with isn't the lack of responses but the tendency of people to keep posting the same crap as if Eo's post never existed.
Breaking away from the rain discussion, I'd just like to ask if anyone has actually tried passing CM boosts to a Rest-Talk Milotic or SubSalac Magneton. It's just incredibly easy to destroy both Offense and Stall provided you get lucky and don't get hit by a crit. Magneton pairs nicely with Espeon resisting all of its weaknesses and is capable of outspeeding the whole tier after a salac boost making it the ideal weapon against opposing offensive teams should they lack a strong priority user which I always scout for before passing. Milotic just walls everything in sight after a CM. Status isn't breaking it down anytime soon either with Rest-Talk and Marvel Scale backing it up. This makes it the ideal weapon against Stall should it lack a haze Milotic or Roar Blastoise. All other Phazers are punished by Surf.
I actually ran a Rain team that had a Nasty-pass Plusle once. While it might seem impractical, a Milotic at +2 does way more damage.
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