Pokemon rankings (Wobbuffet is #503)

Wow, I completely forgot about Wacan. That would have been much easier.

EDIT: Didn't this time.

Gyarados @ Wacan
Careful, 252 HP|252 SpDef
-Earthquake

Thunder does 312-369 and Extremespeed does 41-49. This makes (approximately) 353-418, and 394 (Gyara's HP) > (353+418)/2

EDIT2: Wrong nature :)

Thunder does 340-403, Extremespeed does 46-55, which makes 386-458. Gyara's HP is greater than 12.3% of that, and counting the chance of Thunder missing (30%) and EQ critting (6%) that makes 48.5%, which makes me think we may need to look closer.

Final EDIT: Does anyone know how hard a Pokemon hits itself in its confusion? It seems a relatively vital bit of knowledge for this thread, but I can't seem to remember ever seeing it anywhere.

Ok, this is probably gonna be my final attempt at Arceus Vs Mewtwo, now I know you can't max its EVs yet but I'm curious to know whether it would work for Gen V. Just hoping I haven't overlooked anything...

Mixed Attacker Arceus @ Spooky Plate
0-154-0-96-0-252
Judgment
Shadow Claw

The idea is to force Mewtwo to either use a considerable amount of Speed EVs and weaken its defenses or use a Scarf which limits it to only one defensive move and gets it ruined.

Alternatively it can accept going second and try to stall out the attacks and survive. This Arceus can, however, hit it on both sides so if it raises its defense it gets hit by Judgment coming off of a 300 Special Attack (+ Stab/Spooky Plate) and if it raises Special Defense it gets hit by Shadow Claw coming off of a 314 Attack stat. Protect will only delay the inevitable.

What can Mewtwo do?

Edit: In fact, you could also give Arceus Swords Dance and Calm Mind, not sure how much that would help as this is getting stupidly complicated now :P

Anyway, I don't think Mewtwo has a chance of out-attacking Ghost Arceus, especially if it invests in defense/speed and doesn't want to get smashed to pieces and if it is slower and plays the defensive game can it really hold up to the possibility of being hit on both sides by Stab + Spooky Plate-Boosted-Ghost attacks?

Re-Edit: Just remembered Me First, that's probably gonna ruin this. Oh well :P

With perfect prediction, Barrier, Recover, Amnesia and Toxic ruin that set.

@Steve, can't Arceus only have 100 EVs in each stat?

SteveBob said:

now I know you can't max its EVs yet but I'm curious to know whether it would work for Gen V.

Click to expand...

And yes, he knows we are not doing Gen V.

Athenodoros said:

Wow, I completely forgot about Wacan. That would have been much easier.

EDIT: Didn't this time.

Gyarados @ Wacan
Careful, 252 HP|252 SpDef
-Earthquake

Thunder does 312-369 and Extremespeed does 41-49. This makes (approximately) 353-418, and 394 (Gyara's HP) > (353+418)/2

EDIT2: Wrong nature :)

Thunder does 340-403, Extremespeed does 46-55, which makes 386-458. Gyara's HP is greater than 12.3% of that, and counting the chance of Thunder missing (30%) and EQ critting (6%) that makes 48.5%, which makes me think we may need to look closer.

Click to expand...

Raikou @ Expert Belt
Bold
168 HP 252 Def 88 Speed
- Thunderbolt
- Discharge

Explanation:
- Speed EVs enough to outspeed Jolly Gyarados
- Adamant +1 (from DD) Earthquake does maximum 98.1%
- Thunderbolt always OHKO even Careful 252/252 Gyarados. Gyarados will need Wacan or Sash to survive to DD. (Wacan or Sash cannot OHKO back with +1 EQ as mentioned in the above line).
- Discharge is for Wacan Torment.

There, that should be good now I think.

Yes, I can't find anything better than around a 40% chance now, which is Icy Wind + Headbutt + Earthquake. Although you may want to edit in Extremespeed just to make sure.

EDIT: I was wondering how people felt about a tournament like this. Something along the lines of:
Everyone picks two ordered NU/NFE Pokemon and there is a tournament where you are given your opponents two Pokemon, and you battle a series of heads-up battles: No.1 vs. No.1, No.2 vs. No.2, and a chosen one of yours against a chosen one of the opponents.
It could even be theoretical, so that each chooses a moveset and whoever's is most likely to win wins that round.

I thought about adding Extremespeed just "in case", but then as I recall, Extremespeed Raikou can only be Rash, which actually lowers this chance of winning (+1 EQ has something like 40% chance to KO).

Icy Wind + Headbutt + EQ can't possibly be 40% winning since Headbutt flinch chance is only 30%, and actually Icy Wind + Headbutt + EQ doesn't KO Raikou without a crit on the EQ anyway I don't think... (+1 EQ is essentially 1.5 x 2 x 100 = 300 Base Power... whereas Headbutt + EQ is 70 + 2x100 = 270, Gyarados's weak icy wind will do fairly little I think... DD and then Headbutt + EQ will always KO Raikou though, but Headbutt flinch is still only 30% chance to win).

Yes, it turns out that only if every one of Icy Wind, Headbutt and Earthquake roll as high as they can will it KO. Oh well. Definitely domination then.

EDIT: So I was watching a Pokemon Movie (I was going through them, and this is number 10 for those interested) and I was wondering: what is the relationship between Dialga and Palkia? I'm thinking Dialga, because it has STAB Super-Effective moves and Palkia does not have the disgusting support movepool that has troubled it before. Thoughts?

Was Arceus Vs Darkrai ever completely solved?

If not, how about this?:

Brave Arceus @ Insect Plate
6-252-0-252-0-0
Judgment
X-Scissor
Signal Beam
Sleep Talk

I tried so many things with Whirlwind, Safeguard, Magic Coat, Light Screen etc but in the end it seems that if we assume perfect prediction on Darkrai's part trying to outspeed it just isn't practical.

So, we accept that we're going second and try to deal with it. This set doesn't mind being put to sleep and, if it is, whatever sleep talk selects is still going to massively hammer Darkrai.

For example, even against Bold Darkrai with max HP and SpD Judgment will hit for an enormous 91.3% - 108.1% damage. Against the same set X-Scissor and Signal Beam do 94.2% - 111.6% and 68.6% - 80.8% respectively. If Darkrai doesn't invest in max defenses and HP it'll probably always go down in one hit from both Judgment and X-Scissor and may even succumb to Signal Beam depending on what it runs.

In return the worst Darkrai seems to be able to do is a 3 hit KO with Hidden Power Fire or a 2 Hit if it Nasty Plots first. I'm not even sure if Darkrai can afford to run HP fire anyway so it's a long shot.

So, the strategy:

Turn one, we select Judgment/X-Scissor. If Dark Void Misses or Darkrai chooses to attack instead it WILL go down if it's not fully defensive. If it is fully defensive and somehow manages to survive (meaning it can't have a Life Orb) it will hit us or Nasty Plot and get ruined on the next turn. It could also try Dark Void again and if that failed it'd be gone. If it succeeded we'd just repeat the strategy and finish it with Sleep Talk.

If Darkrai's Dark Void hits first turn our attack will be wasted (I think, not got much Sleep Talk Experience :P) but we can hit back with Sleep Talk next turn and almost certainly 1 hit KO it, if not we should survive and finish it on the following turn).

Even taking into account the 12.5% damage from Bad Dreams I'm pretty sure this set will smash Darkrai at least half the time, if not all the time seeing as I tried to give it the benefit of the doubt on everything when I did my calculations. I even gave it a Life Orb which I don't think it could afford to run.

Anyone see anything obvious I've missed or anything wrong here?

Edit: Seems Darkrai can run Rock Slide but it can't benefit from Nasty Plot with that so I don't think it would cause any more problems than HP Fire.

Re-Edit: I guess I should've paid more attention to the initial post, seems I'm doing almost the exact same thing but forgetting about Sub. Meh, I tried :P

I was just looking at SteveBob's post and it occurred to me; since this is gen 4, shouldn't Arceus have the 100ev limit? obi's OP ignores it as well.

Yeah I figured if Obi ignored it then I may as well. Either way it's gonna have to be dealt with soon anyway so meh.

At the time of the OP, Arceus had not been released, and so everyone assumed that it would be released at level 80, according to the in-game event. I think that now that we know better, we should assume an EV cap, because it is very unlikely that we will ever get another event Arceus, especially below level 100. I think SteveBob should revise his EV spread.

Also, Darkrai outspeeds automatically an Arceus with no speed investment, even with Modest and no EVs.

I'm pretty sure Deoxys-A has a 100% win over Caterpie.

Deoxys A @ Tanga Berry
252 HP/252 Def
-Aerial Ace
-Protect

Turn 1: Aerial Ace - You won't be OHKOed by anything.
Turn 2: Protect to scout Custap.
Turn 3: Aerial Ace

Focus Band, ssbbm.

On a related note, do we know if, when Knocking Off a Focus Band, the Focus Band can activate?

I have not tried, but I am pretty sure it can still activate on the same turn it is knocked off, because that is what happens with focus sash (for Shedinja)... Knock off won't OHKO Sash Shedinja.

K, this one is easy:

100% domination Machamp vs Caterpie:
Machamp @ no item needed
No Guard Ability obviously
Adamant
252 Attack 8 Def 248 Speed
- Stone Edge / Toxic.

First turn Stone Edge.

If there is a second turn, then:
- if Caterpie has Charti, Stone Edge again to KO.
- if Caterpie has sash, Stone Edge again or Toxic, but Stone Edge will KO at beginning of turn instead of end of turn.
- if Caterpie hangs on with focus band, then Toxic.

Choice Band Critical hit Bug Bite on Machamp does 32% max (Tackle does even less). Choice Scarf to outspeed Machamp obviously does even less, not even 3HKO while Machamp always OHKOs even impish 252/252 choiced.

At first I had Machamp holding White Herb (to prevent string shot followed by flinching from kings rock), but it turns out that's not even needed since Stone Edge always OHKOs.

EDIT: Will Need Lum Berry (Psybeam confusion) and Protect (Critical Hit Bounce), and this should handle Spinarak also I think...

Agreed, to both of them. They both seem unbeatable.

Confirming Machamp 100% dominates Spinarak, though it needs Rock Slide/Fire Punch in case Spinarak uses the Rock resisting berry and Disable.

EDIT: Been thinking some about the bottom of the rankings, specifically Caterpie. Don't have time right now to confirm the damage calculations, but I'm pretty sure it loses to Magikarp and Unown. Beats Ditto, but I'm starting to doubt it can beat enough Pokemon to pass Wobbufett/Wynaut.

Another edit: Caterpie doesn't dominate Unown or even Ralts. Unown outspeeds and OHKO's unless Caterpie uses a Tanga Berry or Focus Sash, but even then Bug Bite doesn't OHKO. Scarfed Ralts with 252 HP/244 Def/12 SpA OHKO's Caterpie while surviving Bug Bite unless Caterpie is EV'd so defensively that Bug Bite becomes a 3HKO.
This thread died just I started posting in it...anyway, if you're reading this, whoever linked to it is the new Mythology village leader.