In-Game Tier List Discussion

I wont try and argue too much, but Swoobat has great speed, a usable in-game special attack, and is a godsend against the multitude of fighting and bug types you run into. I never bothered with Pidove, so I'm not exactly sure how it fairs in compairison, but the psychic typing was far more beneficial than it ever was hindering. I'm not saying it was the most super-fabulous pokemon, but it was a lot more helpful playing through than Munna ever was. Maybe I just got lucky, but I swear, it definitely pulled it's weight.
I will say, that I expect the same fate for Pidove/Unfezant as Swoobat against Marshal though; while it seems like a good idea, pretty much every pokemon he has knows stone-edge, and lemme tell you, I never saw it miss. Maybe once if you're lucky.

And you say Whimsicott doesn't kill things fast, but I'll tell you, he kills things extremely effeciantly, even when faced with poor type match-ups. Mine had Giga Drain and Big Root, so even if they did manage to get a hit off after parattract, it was often pretty inconsequential. You say risky at best, but I promise, even if they got to attack through infatuation, and stun-spore missed, I was still in a possition to pull of an easy KO.
It swept a lot of trainers, including gym leaders and those of a distinctly higher level, with little to no difficulty, items, or switching(to the point where I stopped using it for a while to give my other pokes a chance to level); which I think qualify as top-tier.

77 SpA is really, really pushing it for what qualifies as "usable in-game". Especially when it's on a Pokemon with only a handful of coverage options that use that SpA.

The difference between Unfezant and Swoobat against Marshal is that Unfezant has 28 higher Attack than Swoobat's Special Attack and a 1 in 4 chance of getting a crit, meaning Unfezant can at least hope for a OHKO. Also, there's at least a remote chance that Unfezant won't take a OHKO from Stone Edge, something that Swoobat can't even dream of. Finally, Unfezant's Return puts anything Swoobat gets to shame for neutral coverage.

Swoobat's only advantages are a slightly higher Speed (more likely to outspeed Mienshao) and it might deal more damage to Conkeldurr (I'd have to run the numbers). Other than that, you have to just hope for flinch hax to be in your favor.

As for Whimsicott, you talk like Attract is always an option and it stops more than 50% of incoming attacks. Running "parattract" costs two moveslots and gives the opponent a 37.5% chance to hit you anyways (and that's only when you get both up, which is hardly a guaranteed thing). Given Whimsicott's pathetic HP, decent-but-not-amazing defenses, and fairly common weaknesses, you really can't afford to take too many hits, so you need to depend mostly on luck and fairly weak Giga Drains.

Meanwhile, Lilligant outspeeds many things by default, puts up Sleep Powder, and then Quiver Dances until you can sweep anything. Without QD, she still has amazing SpA and solid speed, giving her a good game even without setup.

And lets face it - Attract + Paralysis is a strategy that a ton of Pokemon can use, many of whom don't need to resort to Giga Drain to survive. Sawsbuck has Horn Drain, Attract, Thunder Wave, and is faster than most Pokemon you'll find anywhere. Should he be High Tier as well since he has much better offenses and similar defenses to Whimsicott? What about Zebstrika (better typing, better offenses)? Cinccino (better offenses, fewer weaknesses)? Should I run Thunder Wave + Attract on my Stoutland (much better offenses and defenses, still outspeeds most stuff)?

Swoobat and Whimsicott? Really?

Since when was 77 spatk considered acceptable, even ingame? Honestly if you wanted a psychic flying so badly why not just get Sigilyph? Comes relatively early and you dont need for anything before the desert, and is just so much better. Even Unfezant at least has a better fly than Swoobat.

As for Whimsicott.........It is so weak and has nothing except for grass moves. I know it can do the attract stall shit, but that takes so much more time than if you had a better mon and had already killed your opponent. I really dont know how you kill stuff fast with it.

Woobat?

Wow.

I am surprised.

It doesn't even serve any particular niche earlygame, the only trainer mon it can hit SE is N's Timburr. Sure, after that is Pinwheel, but Timburr is way better for that job.

The in-game traded Baskulin is an absolute BEAST. It starts off average for only 3 levels till Aqua Tail, and then it just destroys everything. From the point when you get it, it can easily train against Clay, in Chargestone Cave (everything in there but a Swadloon is hit at least neutrally by Water), and Celestial Tower (Crunch). It can also help somewhat in the E4 with Soak. Definately upper mid. Panpour, however, is available earlier with greater offenses and a wider movepool, so it's even better.

Pidove's really hard to use though - relys on crits, but even when it gets them, it can't KO its opponents.

Woobat deserves a tier lower than simply "low".

i thought woobat wasn't too shabby. sure, base 77 special attack is pathetic, but lanturn was a pretty decent mid-tier in HG/SS and it had base 76. while lanturn's STAB attacks are a lot better, swoobat comes a lot earlier and gets at least passable neutral coverage at that stage of the game.
later on, it gets psychic and air slash with shadow ball for coverage (exactly the same as sigilyph pre-elite 4) as well as a great set-up move in calm mind (something which sigilyph lacks pre-elite 4). i also found its unaware ability to be pretty useful on quite a few occasions, particularly the 8th gym where everything loves to use dragon dance.
in spite of all this, it is still pretty mediocre even after a couple of calm minds. it is by no means as terrible as most of you guys are making it out to be, though. i'd say it's a pretty low mid-tier at best.

Unfezant was pretty damn good in my game. A bit weak in the beginning, but Super Luck Air Cutter/Quick Attack gets the job done until Return, at which points it just starts rampaging everywhere. Fly comes around when it should evolve too. Mine soloed Marshal pretty easily. I can't remember if any of them even tried to Stone Edge me, but it wasn't an issue in the end. Sure, it's no Starly, but it's way better than say, Hoothoot.

wavves said:

i thought woobat wasn't too shabby. sure, base 77 special attack is pathetic, but lanturn was a pretty decent mid-tier in HG/SS and it had base 76. while lanturn's STAB attacks are a lot better, swoobat comes a lot earlier and gets at least passable neutral coverage at that stage of the game.
later on, it gets psychic and air slash with shadow ball for coverage (exactly the same as sigilyph pre-elite 4) as well as a great set-up move in calm mind (something which sigilyph lacks pre-elite 4). i also found its unaware ability to be pretty useful on quite a few occasions, particularly the 8th gym where everything loves to use dragon dance.
in spite of all this, it is still pretty mediocre even after a couple of calm minds. it is by no means as terrible as most of you guys are making it out to be, though. i'd say it's a pretty low mid-tier at best.

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Lanturn has huge HP and decent bulk. Swoobat.. does not.

Serious_Business said:

Unfezant was pretty damn good in my game. A bit weak in the beginning, but Super Luck Air Cutter/Quick Attack gets the job done until Return, at which points it just starts rampaging everywhere. Fly comes around when it should evolve too. Mine soloed Marshal pretty easily. I can't remember if any of them even tried to Stone Edge me, but it wasn't an issue in the end. Sure, it's no Starly, but it's way better than say, Hoothoot.

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I'd generally agree with this (but if you are completely soloing Marshal with ease you are probably a little overlevelled... keep that in mind).

Unfezant was never "dead weight" on the team; I think it is mostly viable early game because of all the Fighting-types (of course, end game they all have Rock-type attacks). However, I still did find it to have some utility towards the end, since it still outsped most Fighting-types and could hope for a crit. Overall, I think it's simply underrated because Flying is heralded as good neutral coverage competitively, but in game, Unfezant should be focusing more on super effective coverage. The only problem IMO is movepool.

I was even level at the E4. Maybe a level lower actually.

Fly should be a 2HKO on everything in there. You outspeed everything except possibly the Mienshao, and I think I may have outsped him too. It's been a while, but I think I may have a save during the E4 before I fought him, I'm going to see how I fare the second time.

EDIT: I'm playing around with Marshal. My Unfezant is 47. I do not remember whether he was higher when I first did him, as I always did him last and this save was before I entered the E4. I must have gotten lucky the first time around. Throh doesn't know whether to Payback or Stone Edge. If he Paybacks or misses an Edge, you beat him. Then Sawk came in, outsped and killed with Stone Edge.

Either way, he was still a fairly reliable team member. A bit weak in the beginning, picks up again when he evolves, outstanding in the middle of the game but not amazing against the E4.

Vladimir said:

The in-game traded Baskulin is an absolute BEAST. It starts off average for only 3 levels till Aqua Tail, and then it just destroys everything. From the point when you get it, it can easily train against Clay, in Chargestone Cave (everything in there but a Swadloon is hit at least neutrally by Water), and Celestial Tower (Crunch). It can also help somewhat in the E4 with Soak. Definately upper mid. Panpour, however, is available earlier with greater offenses and a wider movepool, so it's even better.

Pidove's really hard to use though - relys on crits, but even when it gets them, it can't KO its opponents.

Woobat deserves a tier lower than simply "low".

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Lolwhat Chargestone?

A WILD FERROSEED APPEARED!

And since there are wild Ferroseeds, likewise N also has one.

Sure, it is a great mon though. Panpour however is earlier, gets LOLSCALD by Castelia, and has the option of evolving into Simipour by Castelia as well. Basculin itself though, is a great Pokemon.

If anything though, I think we should split up Basculin into 3 separates: normal wild Basculin(Low tier due to pathetic amounts of grinding required), Black IGT Basculin, and White IGT Basculin. This is because all 3 have vast differences to each other. Likewise, the same can be said of Throh and Sawk, and that both should be split up, with White Throh and Black Sawk higher than Black Throh and White Sawk. This also facilitates discussion when it comes to comparing Throh/Sawk with Conkeldurr...

I agree with the idea about Basculin, because the IGT versions actually have differeces to the normal versions, a different ability.

However, I've used Basculin, and:
1: You can catch wild Basculin at a decent level, it's just too late, and requires you already have another, probobly superior, water-type. This automatically makes Wild Basculin low teir.

2: The White IGT trade version has Rock Head. Good for the recoil moves, but, let's face it, Adaptability is better.

3: I dont have Black. However, if Reckless is it's ability, it is worse than the White IGT but if Adaptability is its ability, is it better. Still better than wild Basculin, because it comes sooner.

... Although I disagree with the ease of training Basculin around Gym 5. Sure, Route 5 works. Route 6 has Swadloon and Deerling, and what you can train on, Karrablast, gives pathetic EXP and spams Endure, while Unfezant are not brilliant EXP. At least there are Audino, but even then, a Reckless/Rock Head Basculin can actually struggle against those, in fact, my Adaptability one struggled with Surf.

Of course, there is always the Gym, but Palpitoad can be an annoyance there.


Chargestone has... everything but Boldore, who has Strurdy...


Tl;dr on Basculin:
You'd have a better water type by the time you get it anyway [Ducklett, Simipour, Samuwott]
Adaptability is it's only good ability
It's hard to grind when you get it, either due to being too late, or having nowhere to grind.

- All versions are low teir, from my experiance. So splitting Basculin is pointless.

As for Throh/Sawk...

While their rareity may vary between the games, you'll probobly need to Audino grind a fair bit anyway before Lenora. I always manage to find a Sawk while grinding, and Sawk is such a powerhouse for that point in the game, it's worth looking for. Like Scyther in the Bug Catching Contest in HG.

Good gravy, I'm gonna smack the next person who mentions "Audino grinding" as a valid in-game leveling technique. It is the second worst kind of babying possible, right after grinding random encounters. Fighting a rustling grass you happen to come across is fine, but specifically looking for them means you are taking time away from, y'know, playing the game. Since tier lists are designed so that people can judge the fastest, easiest "route" for a run, Audino grinding goes directly against that philosophy.

[/rant]

Keep in mind that Adaptability Basculin's Aqua Tail is, to the best of my knowledge, the single most damaging Water attack pre-credits (unless you overlevel and pick up Samurott's Hydro Pump or Jellicent's Water Spout). You can find higher-leveled Basculin in places like the lake around Dragonspiral Tower, so it isn't necessarily going to be too far behind your team when you get it.

And since the game really only has a couple places where Water Types shine, it isn't unheard of to have never really used your Tympole, Ducklett, or even Panpour/Oshawott before that point in the game. If you want to add a Water type late in the run instead of using one up earlier, Adaptability Basculin is one of your best options.

The in-game trade versions are decent enough, too, since they are clearly better than Ducklett and Palpitoad right off the bat. Having access to an extremely powerful Normal move (Double Edge being either stupidly powerful or lacking a drawback, depending on the version) gives them great neutral coverage, which plays nicely with their great Attack and speed.

Indeed, I'm not really seeing how Ducklett is ever better than Trade Basculin unless you desperately need its Flying type. Basculin is available at pretty much the same time at Ducklett and is clearly stronger until Ducklett evolves. Stat-wise, Swanna and Basculin are extremely similar, so that can't really give an edge to either. Swanna gets Flying attacks, but at the cost of making her Electric weakness even worse and trading her Grass weakness for an arguably more annoying Rock one.

I'd ultimately give each Water Pokemon the following Tiering:
Oshawott - High
Panpour - Upper Mid
Tympole - Mid
Basculin - Lower Mid
Ducklett - Lower Mid
Tirtouga - Lower Mid
Alomomola - Low
Frillish - undecided

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I really don't think we should have separate tiering for Trade Pokemon or version semi-exclusives. It ultimately clutters the list, and I think the tiers should just assume the best case scenario for that Pokemon. Heck, I'm not sure I even support giving the trade evolutions 2 spots each, especially when their unevolved forms are so lackluster.

If we really wanted, we could have separate tiering for each and every different Ability, nature, etc. That will often make the difference between tiers too. But should we? No, of course not.

Also, you shouldn't need much grinding before Lenora, if any. If you are struggling against her that much, it's often a sign that you filled up your party too quickly and are spreading your experience too thin. Outside of one run where I got quite unlucky (several Take Down misses in a row), Lenora's never been much of a threat for me.

Raikaria said:

As for Throh/Sawk...

While their rareity may vary between the games, you'll probobly need to Audino grind a fair bit anyway before Lenora. I always manage to find a Sawk while grinding, and Sawk is such a powerhouse for that point in the game, it's worth looking for. Like Scyther in the Bug Catching Contest in HG.

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Sawk, which I see as the better of the two needs no grinding to completely decimate the 2nd gym. Also mine didn't even have Sturdy, which I didn't realize it could have.

@ spweasel: Why do you consider Tirtouga so low? Shell Smash, Curse, Surf, Waterfall, Rock Slide, Blizzard, etc. Why is it so bad?

Any fighting-type with actual decent bulk has a shot at owning Lenora. All 3 Fightings do, so Lenora is piss-easy. IMO, the only other way for this game to be harder in the beginning, is to give N a Sawk.

TheSubwayMaster said:

@ spweasel: Why do you consider Tirtouga so low? Shell Smash, Curse, Surf, Waterfall, Rock Slide, Blizzard, etc. Why is it so bad?

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First, I wouldn't consider Lower Mid to be "bad", per se, it's just a little lacking. I guess pure Mid would be appropriate, too, but it didn't perform very well for me. Painfully low speed and an abundance of weaknesses made Shell Smash much less awesome than it should be. A pretty noticeable lack of Special Bulk does him no favors, either, which is something Curse can't fix. I guess I might have been subconsciously been comparing him to Archen as well, though it certainly wasn't intentional.

Honestly, I would consider being a Water type in-game to be a lot less of a benefit this generation than before (it's still pretty good, especially defensively). With a lack of a Rock, Fire, or even Steel Gym or Elite 4 member, as well as seemingly fewer common Water-weak trainer Pokemon (only Sandile and Roggenrola are especially common), Water offensively ends up being similar to Normal - more a focus on neutral attacks rather than super-effective ones. And since Surf is now completely optional, you don't really need to devote a team slot if you don't want to.

spweasel said:

Good gravy, I'm gonna smack the next person who mentions "Audino grinding" as a valid in-game leveling technique. It is the second worst kind of babying possible, right after grinding random encounters. Fighting a rustling grass you happen to come across is fine, but specifically looking for them means you are taking time away from, y'know, playing the game. Since tier lists are designed so that people can judge the fastest, easiest "route" for a run, Audino grinding goes directly against that philosophy.

[/rant]

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Wrong. Audino grinding is statistically faster and can last forever, as compared to Trainer battles. So for you to say its the second worst kind of babying is flat out incorrect.

Further, your whole argument doesn't make sense. Some Pokemon simply need to be babied. Part of the argument for Joltik (high tier) is to give him the Lucky Egg and Volt Switch out to get experience. THIS IS TAKING TIME AWAY FROM DIRECTLY PLAYING THE GAME. However, that doesn't mean he's not still high tier.

Lastly, you simply may need to do some grinding before the elite four, depending on what you've done in game (and by your logic, you've skipped every possible trainer battle because those take time away from the gyms), and that's acceptable.

TheSubwayMaster said:

@ spweasel: Why do you consider Tirtouga so low? Shell Smash, Curse, Surf, Waterfall, Rock Slide, Blizzard, etc. Why is it so bad?

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Tirtouga, in my opinion, is probably one of the best Pokemon in the game stat wise and movepool wise. Unfortunately, Rock Slide and Waterfall really come to late in my opinion, and the Rock-type is more often a hindrance than a boon.

unfezant is not useless at all it definantly pulled its weight for me and helped beat marshall

panpour was pretty awesome but i never ever evolved it because i didnt want to waist a water stone if i can never get another one

it was beast early on despite needing massive xp to lvl up

then mid game with the evo stone it was good

then E4 came along and it couldnt even 2hko chandelure with surf.....i suggest u evolve it and it may be wayyy better

Ray Jay said:

Wrong. Audino grinding is statistically faster and can last forever, as compared to Trainer battles. So for you to say its the second worst kind of babying is flat out incorrect.

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Wrong. Trainer battles happen on the way and have monetary rewards. Fighting a trainer battle doesn't require a dedicated effort, and still provides great experience. Audino grinding means you are putting the adventure on hold while you go out of your way for something that serves absolutely no purpose than gaining experience.

And trainer battles not "lasting forever"? Please. If you don't have more than enough experience by clearing out all of an area's trainer battles, you are doing something seriously wrong.

Further, your whole argument doesn't make sense. Some Pokemon simply need to be babied. Part of the argument for Joltik (high tier) is to give him the Lucky Egg and Volt Switch out to get experience. THIS IS TAKING TIME AWAY FROM DIRECTLY PLAYING THE GAME. However, that doesn't mean he's not still high tier.

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Except that Joltik can handle most of the Pokemon in Chargestone and/or Gym #6 even without Volt Switch. Volt Switch is simply an extra little perk for those things he struggles against. And how is damage + switch taking time away from playing the game? You deal damage just like you would have by using an attack from whatever you switch to. You might end up adding a turn to the fight, but that's a minor inconvenience at best.

Lastly, you simply may need to do some grinding before the elite four, depending on what you've done in game (and by your logic, you've skipped every possible trainer battle because those take time away from the gyms), and that's acceptable.

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Going far out of your way for trainers is stupid, but very few trainers are out of the way unless they are guarding an item.

Even if grinding Audinos and carefully avoiding trainers is technically the fastest way to get through the game, it still breaks the flow of the game by creating a stop-and-start style of gameplay and forces you to spend time fighting the same stupidly easy Pokemon instead of actually fighting real battles.

Fighting trainers is playing the game. Running around to find shaking grass and fight the same pathetically easy Audino over and over again is not.

Finally, needing to grind before the Elite 4 is a sign that you've failed as a player somewhere along the way. You are given more than enough opportunity to prepare a team that can beat the game without resorting to dedicated grinding. If you are forced to grind, it's because of either your team or your playing skill.

Tirtouga, in my opinion, is probably one of the best Pokemon in the game stat wise and movepool wise. Unfortunately, Rock Slide and Waterfall really come to late in my opinion, and the Rock-type is more often a hindrance than a boon.

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It has great Attack and Defense, sure, but that mediocre HP, low SpD, and terrible Speed is just painful, especially on a Pokemon with as many weaknesses as Tirtouga. Its movepool really isn't that spectacular, since it really only gets Crunch and Blizzard for semi-decent coverage options, and it is slow in learning good STABs.

Gengar FTW said:

panpour was pretty awesome but i never ever evolved it because i didnt want to waist a water stone if i can never get another one

it was beast early on despite needing massive xp to lvl up

then mid game with the evo stone it was good

then E4 came along and it couldnt even 2hko chandelure with surf.....i suggest u evolve it and it may be wayyy better

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..You kept an unevolved PANPOUR the whole game?

spweasel said:

Wrong. Trainer battles happen on the way and have monetary rewards. Fighting a trainer battle doesn't require a dedicated effort, and still provides great experience. Audino grinding means you are putting the adventure on hold while you go out of your way for something that serves absolutely no purpose than gaining experience.

And trainer battles not "lasting forever"? Please. If you don't have more than enough experience by clearing out all of an area's trainer battles, you are doing something seriously wrong.

Except that Joltik can handle most of the Pokemon in Chargestone and/or Gym #6 even without Volt Switch. Volt Switch is simply an extra little perk for those things he struggles against. And how is damage + switch taking time away from playing the game? You deal damage just like you would have by using an attack from whatever you switch to. You might end up adding a turn to the fight, but that's a minor inconvenience at best.

Going far out of your way for trainers is stupid, but very few trainers are out of the way unless they are guarding an item.

Even if grinding Audinos and carefully avoiding trainers is technically the fastest way to get through the game, it still breaks the flow of the game by creating a stop-and-start style of gameplay and forces you to spend time fighting the same stupidly easy Pokemon instead of actually fighting real battles.

Fighting trainers is playing the game. Running around to find shaking grass and fight the same pathetically easy Audino over and over again is not.

Finally, needing to grind before the Elite 4 is a sign that you've failed as a player somewhere along the way. You are given more than enough opportunity to prepare a team that can beat the game without resorting to dedicated grinding. If you are forced to grind, it's because of either your team or your playing skill.

It has great Attack and Defense, sure, but that mediocre HP, low SpD, and terrible Speed is just painful, especially on a Pokemon with as many weaknesses as Tirtouga. Its movepool really isn't that spectacular, since it really only gets Crunch and Blizzard for semi-decent coverage options, and it is slow in learning good STABs.

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I had Serperior, Zebstrika, Stoutland, Celebi, Excadrill, and Sawsbuck, and all were around level 50. I got beat every time I tried to fight the E4.. The E4 are simply overleveled if you're evenly distributing EXP with no grinding.

And sorry for the double-post, the Wii won't let me copy/paste quotes into one post :L

Excadrill demolishes the E4 though. I used one on my first playthrough, and it beat everyone for me except Marshal, and while I don't remember how Grimsley's Scrafty went, I'm pretty confident a +2 EQ should kill it. I'd imagine that between Serperior and Celebi Marshal shouldn't be too bad.

My playthrough teams have been: Samurott, Stoutland, Excadrill, Darmanitan, Beeheeyem the first time around, Samurott, Scolipede, Cinccino, Scrafty, Galvantula, Reuniclus, the second time, and my most recent was Crustle, Leavanny, Unfezant, Beartic, Golurk and Simipour. The team was almost never above 50 going in (Excadrill being the main exception in my first playthrough, as well as surprisingly Beartic), and the E4 was never an issue. Very little XP grinding for anything, except for the occasional catchup when acquiring a new member, and always went right into the E4.

As for Joltik, I've said it before but I'll repeat it again. I was able to catch every non-Unnerve Joltik going through the cave, pick out the best, give it an Exp. Share and then go through the Celestial Tower, fighting all the trainers on the way. By the time I was at the gym, Joltik was more than strong anough to handle the gym trainers, evolved shortly before Skyla, then just kicked ass the rest of the game. I don't know how people feel about Exp Share, if they see it as babying, but by the time Joltik was wanted and needed, it could stand on its own.

Serious_Business said:

Excadrill demolishes the E4 though. I used one on my first playthrough, and it beat everyone for me except Marshal, and while I don't remember how Grimsley's Scrafty went, I'm pretty confident a +2 EQ should kill it. I'd imagine that between Serperior and Celebi Marshal shouldn't be too bad.

My playthrough teams have been: Samurott, Stoutland, Excadrill, Darmanitan, Beeheeyem the first time around, Samurott, Scolipede, Cinccino, Scrafty, Galvantula, Reuniclus, the second time, and my most recent was Crustle, Leavanny, Unfezant, Beartic, Golurk and Simipour. The team was almost never above 50 going in (Excadrill being the main exception in my first playthrough, as well as surprisingly Beartic), and the E4 was never an issue. Very little XP grinding for anything, except for the occasional catchup when acquiring a new member, and always went right into the E4.

As for Joltik, I've said it before but I'll repeat it again. I was able to catch every non-Unnerve Joltik going through the cave, pick out the best, give it an Exp. Share and then go through the Celestial Tower, fighting all the trainers on the way. By the time I was at the gym, Joltik was more than strong anough to handle the gym trainers, evolved shortly before Skyla, then just kicked ass the rest of the game. I don't know how people feel about Exp Share, if they see it as babying, but by the time Joltik was wanted and needed, it could stand on its own.

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I "cheated" and sent over a Timid EV'ed level-100 Celebi with the relocator just to beat the E4, because I kept losing with that team (That Celebi was my Adamant level 50 one). How was Beeheeyem? Lol