If Chansey is deemed to be overcentralizing, then ban it, its as simple as that. Banning evolite is uneeded, and unessisary. Besides, its called a fighting type people, there is a good abundance of them in UU, use them. Saying you would need a fighting type to do well in UU though does not make it overcentralizing. Needing a steel type in general in OU, does not make dragons overcetralizing.
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np: UU Suspect Test Round 1 - Sunny Days
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Please at least read the previous page before posting, otherwise you end up saying things that are either redundant or stupid. <br><br>Regarding banning evolite versus banning chansey, the issue is simple: is chansey balanced without evolite? Would the metagame be better off with a "normal" chansey? If the answer to both of these is "yes", then a complex ban makes sense - that's why we did the swift swim complex ban in the first place.
But we don't really need a combo ban here. Banning Drizzle as a whole was dangerous because of the upheaval that it was projected to cause. I highly doubt that UU would miss Chansey. (And if it would due to other broken stuff then maybe that stuff should be banned, too.)
My question is why are you so fixated on not banning evolite on chansey? Chansey is yes a great near perfect SPECIAL wall with still many flaws but with evolite this allows her to easily cover up those flaws...
Every counter-post i read just says that its unneccessary to ban the combo but for what reason though is it "unneccessary"?
The metagame might actually benefit for losing "normal" chansey if eviolite chansey (aka the set that might be broken) goes, since we still have great Special Walls in UU, remember the 4 generations OU snorlax, Milotic, Roserade, i bet some of them can easily take the hole that chansey will leave if she goes, and i'm against a complex ban since it would be the same as banning Salamence with Outrage last Gen, or Unbanning Blaze Blaziken, just a to complicated thing to benefit the metagame and a huge hole into a lot of bizarre and overly complicated stuff
Lol then let's have a metagame where only magikarps exist then
I know it was done in OU, but I'd prefer to avoid complicated/combo bans in UU if at all possible so please only nominate a complex game if it's pretty much necessary to maintain a diverse metagame while allowing it to be balanced (like some would argue swift swim + drizzle ban was meant to accomplish).
I'd really not like to see Eviolite banned though. There are so many interesting NFE Pokemon that are only really viable with Eviolite. Without Eviolite, weather teams would be severely weakened (except hail), and I think that sand and sun bring a very interesting quality to UU.
I'm not for banning evolite, only for banning evolite on Chansey. But since Jabba has stated that complex bans are not his bag, I'd definitely settle for banning Chansey over banning Evolite.
Have to agree with this. Banning Evololite+Chansey is pretty ridiculous. Complex bans should certainly be a last resort, and only when it will make a significant (positive) impact on the metagame – with Drizzle+SS being the obvious example. This is especially relevant in UU, where we shouldn't have nearly as many standards of balance (in weather, in physical/special, etc.) as we would usually. Still agree that Chansey's defensive prowess is absurd though.
Edit: Good point.
Not all complex bans necessarily. But item + pokemon bans are probably the least favorable complex bans as they open an entire can of worms you don't want to deal with. They're the kind of complex ban where you can't understand why a line should be drawn between one ban to the next. i.e. if you're banning eviolite + chansey why can't you ban other item + mon combinations (think mence + life orb ban in dpp)? There's really no distinction that you can make that could explain it.
It depends on your definition of "worse". Can she kill 4/6 your team with a single set-up or, arguably, no set-up at all? No. But can she wall 4/6 of your team with no set-up at all? Yes.
They're broken for different things.
EDIT: also user Virizion is banned! :D
Indeed, Item + Pokemon bans seem like something that would be wise to stay away from. I'm not convinced Chansey is broken, but I still would say banning Chansey entirely would be better than banning Chansey + Eviolite, if one of the two has to go.
However, the same problems you mentioned don't necessarily apply to certain other complex bans. There are places where the line can be drawn to prevent things from getting out of hand while still making use of complex bans that can improve the metagame, that those are the sort of matters that need to be decided in PR, not here. We're long overdue for an official decision of some line being drawn, ever since Aldaron's proposal. Of course, if you feel the need to make such an official decision here and now and enforce the line you just suggested, I can't stop you, and it would still be better than the current uncertain situation. But I would hope you wouldn't do something like that without a good reason not to let PR decide.
On the topic of complex bans, the instant a female Snorunt is released, i really hope we ban Snow Cloak + Snow Warning on the same team. This is 10x worse than OU Garchomp, because there are multiple abusers of the evasion boosts on the same team, making it highly unlikely that you won't miss eventually. Just had my opp's Frosslass get 3 layers of spikes up with my Bullet Punch missing twice in a row. I'd have won the battle 'coz he had no fire resistance, but then again, Victini's V-create missed Mamoswine >_> This is absurd, and makes the already deadly Hail teams even more difficult to deal with.
EDIT: just saw shrang's above post - even with Snatch, Chansey's still beatable for two reasons: Snatch only has 16 PP and Chansey doesn't benefit from the boosts it gains (also can't stop TR Victini from setting up, a very common switch-in)
EDIT: just saw shrang's above post - even with Snatch, Chansey's still beatable for two reasons: Snatch only has 16 PP and Chansey doesn't benefit from the boosts it gains (also can't stop TR Victini from setting up, a very common switch-in)
If a player can run abilities like that in such bulk that the odds start favoring them in terms of having your moves miss at least once, then that's a legitimate strategy in the same way that Moody was a legitimate (albeit broken) strategy. If, however, you prove that Snow Cloak is broken because it gives all these Pokemon 20% more bulk on average, then that's a good reason to ban it.
Snatch works on Rest? Thats pretty freakin awesome, but wouldn't you have the problem that you'd put yourself to sleep afterward so it'd still be able to Rest on the next turn?
If its near perfect then its already making alot of other special walls/sponges redundant. Why use them at all if Chansey is better by miles?
Its not healthy for the metagame if there is no incentive to try out other things, it also basically makes alot of offensive Pokemon unviable as they have little next to no way past it ever. Most special sponges are breakable in certain type matchups or circumstances, Chansey simply just narrows them down too much that they become very easily dealable with.
You're only being a hypocrite with that vague accusation.
Oh come on, people. If you want to ban Eviolite on Chansey so badly, then let's just ban Speed Boost on Blaziken so it becomes usable in UU again. If having Eviolite means Chansey can compete with Blissey in terms of usage, then so be it. It's not like it's such a necessity to have Blissey and Chansey in separate metagames, especially when Eviolite Chansey may very well function just as well a special wall as Blissey.
if chansey gets banned then you all seriously need help. you deal with it the same way you did in gen 4 uu. and stall took a massive hit so far due to all the weather influx anyway, so anyone that tells me that chansey is difficult to take down just flat out sucks, no offense.
eviolite helped it out, yes, but it gets an additional 6% damage per turn as well due to weather effects. chansey still is, and always will be, a sitting duck for pokemon to set-up, but again i guess you all ignore that for some reason. chansey's roles are static, which means no unpredictability and no surprises. if anything, deoxys-d should be booted first because it can run so many anti-metagame sets, including taunt and magic coat as well as its spikes.
chansey's always been good at what it does. it stops special attackers to a point. boosting pokemon like cm raikou and shit can still break chansey after 3 calm minds. run shit that deals specifically with chansey, stop complaining that you can't kill it if your team is limited to 6 special attacking pokemon ffs.
eviolite helped it out, yes, but it gets an additional 6% damage per turn as well due to weather effects. chansey still is, and always will be, a sitting duck for pokemon to set-up, but again i guess you all ignore that for some reason. chansey's roles are static, which means no unpredictability and no surprises. if anything, deoxys-d should be booted first because it can run so many anti-metagame sets, including taunt and magic coat as well as its spikes.
chansey's always been good at what it does. it stops special attackers to a point. boosting pokemon like cm raikou and shit can still break chansey after 3 calm minds. run shit that deals specifically with chansey, stop complaining that you can't kill it if your team is limited to 6 special attacking pokemon ffs.
Funny, this is exactly the kind of argument I was talking about before. "+3 raikou 2hkos chansey", so a powerful special attacker with three turns worth of boosts being able to 2hko chansey with a super-effective move isn't broken. And the best part about this is that your example isn't even valid.
Here's what happens in raikou v chansey:
Raikou comes in
Raikou uses cm, opponent switches in chansey
Raikou uses cm again, chansey uses toxic
Raikou uses cm again, chansey uses seismic toss
Raikou uses aura sphere, chansey spams softboiled or wish/protect until raikou dies in like two turns from toxic/lo damage
Chansey lives to be fat another day.
Chansey being "set up bait" is the silliest argument I've ever head, because only the most retarded of opponents is going to sit there and spam thunder wave against a kyurem's substitute. What it's actually going to do is pass a wish to something like empoleon, who will proceed to roar your ass out.
And it's amusing that you think people suck because they think chansey is broken - it actually gives me little trouble simply because I barely use special attackers at all. But the entire point is that I don't use special attackers almost exclusively because of Chansey, and even when my team is almost fully physical, it still manages to park its fat pink whore ass in front of something like rhyperior and poison it, or it'll switch into a Brave Bird/Flare Blitz and make my pokemon lose 60% of its health in recoil.
For those of you who think that Chansey is physically weak too, here is a shocking calc that I discovered (the hard way) today.
+6 Standard Curselax vs. 252 / 252 Eviolite Chansey: 89.2% - 105.3%
That's a STAB base 102 move coming off of a base 110 attack that's at +6, and it won't OHKO most of the time. To reiterate, that's a base 153 power move coming from a 1024 attack, and it won't OHKO a "physically frail" pokemon. Chansey then proceeds to OHKO Snorlax with Counter (yes, many Chansey still use counter). Now this either means that Snorlax sucks (which we know is wrong), or that Chansey is too good.
Now obviously, people are going to say "well that's just a Snorlax", but the point is that when one of the biggest "counters" can't really counter Chansey, something is wrong.
And finally people, let's look at the characteristics of an Uber: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43566
Let's pick this apart.
'Nuff said.
/sarcasm
In short, Chansey certainly meets two of these three qualifications and should be banned under either one.
EDIT:
@ Gerard
I completely agree, Vulpix personifies the support charicteristic
+6 Standard Curselax vs. 252 / 252 Eviolite Chansey: 89.2% - 105.3%
That's a STAB base 102 move coming off of a base 110 attack that's at +6, and it won't OHKO most of the time. To reiterate, that's a base 153 power move coming from a 1024 attack, and it won't OHKO a "physically frail" pokemon. Chansey then proceeds to OHKO Snorlax with Counter (yes, many Chansey still use counter). Now this either means that Snorlax sucks (which we know is wrong), or that Chansey is too good.
Now obviously, people are going to say "well that's just a Snorlax", but the point is that when one of the biggest "counters" can't really counter Chansey, something is wrong.
And finally people, let's look at the characteristics of an Uber: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43566
Let's pick this apart.
+6 Metronome Adamant Chansey (skill swapped pure power) Helping Hand boosted Critical Hit Giga Impact vs. lvl 1 -6 Def Lonely Diglett (0 HP 0 Def IVs): 8342209.1% - 9814363.6%
'Nuff said.
/sarcasm
Mmmkay let's get serious. Now let's look at everything Chansey can wall or stall out. First of all, any special attacker is completely walled, regardless of what pokemon it is. No special attackers in UU can muscle through Chansey. And for those of you who think that sticking toxic on your special attackers will fix the problem, you are aware that Chansey has Natural Cure, right? Chansey's not going to stay poisoned for long, and is going to come back to haunt you. Furthermore, physical attackers without Fighting moves are walled to an extent. Although Chansey may not be able to completely stop them in their tracks, it has enough time to Toxic them and wear them down with Protect, Wish, and Seismic Toss. So unless your sweeper is immune to Toxic, you're getting fucked up. Chansey will stall you out with its amazing Wish+Protect combo as the Toxic damage slowly racks up. And even though many physical attackers are going to get through Chansey, most are going to come out with low health or on the verge of death. So Chansey is capable of walling and stalling out all special attackers as well as weaker physical attackers. And although it misses out on 6% health per turn, it also is capable of gaining 50% in two turns by simply Wishing and Protecting. So pokemon like Hippopotas really can't take care of it that easily.
Chansey absolutely makes everything easier for sweepers. Chansey has an absolutely outstanding support movepool. For starters, Chansey has the ability to pass 352 HP boosts to any pokemon. For most pokemon, that's all of their health. So Chansey is essentially capable of reviving sweepers (as long as they're not actually dead, but instead are close to dead). Chansey is capable of wearing down pokemon, making it easier for a cleaner to come in and wipe out the opponent. Toxic damage and Seismic toss damage really does a number on the opponent, meaning that oftentimes weak attacks can take care of the opponent. Thunderwave allows Chansey to cripple the opponent by halving their speed, therefore leaving them highly vulnerable to moderately fast sweepers, and giving them only a 50% chance at attacking. This makes it easier for pokemon who can't always get the OHKO on the opponent. Parahax allosw them to safely score 2HKO's without any damage. It also allows pokemon like Togekiss and even Dunsparce to run wild. I want to keep this support list short, so I'll simply finish by saying that Chansey can also lay down Stealth Rock, making those OHKO's and 2HKO's even easier for your team. But that is not all. Chansey's support movepool is so incredibly vast, which consistently allows it to set up a sweep for other pokemon.
In short, Chansey certainly meets two of these three qualifications and should be banned under either one.
EDIT:
@ Gerard
I completely agree, Vulpix personifies the support charicteristic
I love you ToF! But people are lazy and tend to ignore these points....
@Flareblitz: Rest ist pretty legit on Raikou and Raikou with Rest simply wins versus Chansey. You dont even need Sleeptalk. Just use Chesto-Berry or run a Set consisting of TBolt, HP[Ice], CM, Rest @Shuca/Air Ballon. CM with Lum is legit too....
You have to prepare for any Poke out there. Why do you think people use Hp[Ice] on Landorus when SE alone offers great coverage and HP[Ice] is pretty much redundant? Just to deal with Gliscor. The same goes for Skarmory and every other Poke out there.... You prepare for the threats the metagame creates and the Pokes that could stop your sweepers (common example: in Gen4 Scarftar+SD-Luca with XSpeed was a good combo because TTar could reliable deal with Gengar and Scarf-rotom the two big counters for Lucario on offensive Teams).
I dont know when this community got so banhappy that she will ban everything that she is unable to deal with because she is too lazy change their team....
Otherwise i will just cp my former post regarding Chansey which seems to be ignored:
Seriously there are more then enough ways around Chansey. Just be creative enough to use them. :) (And most of the options i listed are worth it even when your opponent doesnt have Chansey).
@Post above me: To be honest i LIKE it that things doesnt get ohkoed so fast. It makes the game more interesting because now you have to think more instead of setting up random sweeper xyz. This makes the metagame more like GSC, which definitely isnt a bad step!
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