OU CCAT: Nidoking Edition

Dragonite (Choice Band)
Gyarados (Bulky Support) & Scizor (Jolly SD)
Gengar (LO Pain Split)

So we selected LO Pain Split Gengar as the 5th teammate, with CB Nite a close 2nd!

Winner:

Gengar @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Shadow Ball
- Substitute
- Pain Split
- Focus Blast

To sum our team up: Current Line-Up
1) LO Nidoking
2) SD Virizion
3) TWave Rotom-W
4) Wish Jirachi
5) Pain Split Gengar

Congratulations, guys, we're finally reaching the end of the 3rd Step of Teammate Selection! Next step would be to test-drive this team on Smogon's OU ladder and suggest on this thread any necessary tweaks, which would be voted upon. More on that once we end this phase.

Let's start discussing and submitting our final teammate then! LO Gengar is a good check to most Fighting-types and Celebi. Volcarona and Scarf Darmanitan under the sun is still threatening, being able to take out all the mons with 1-2 hits and having QD / Scarf to minimize revenge-killing. Heavy Offensive team with mons like Haxorus, Dragonite, and SD Scizor can also be problematic to this team. Since I believe LO Gar patches up the team's offense fairly well, I personally think we should resolve the Fire-type / HO weakness. Feel free to identify other offensive and defensive threats that this team must overcome other than the ones listed above, though!

I will keep the discussions and nominations open till next Tuesday (Jan. 17th). Let's finish this baby.

As our final poke I reccommend my own personal favorite dragon killer, Slowbro:

Slowbro (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Yawn
- Flamethrower

Scald to cause a burn, Ice Beam to hit dragons where it hurts and Flamethrower for Scizor, Ferrothorn and other grass/steels that want some.

Yawn is a great tool for phasing out Dragonite especially as no-one wants to waste their 'Nite by staying in and sleeping.

Regenerator also helps keep Slowbro ticking so as not to put too much pressure on Jirachi's Wish PP.

I am going to suggest a no-brainer for this team that can take Volcarona and most fire types like a boss, being one of Sun Offense's biggest nighmares! Here it is:

Terakion @ Choice Scarf



evs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 6 HP
ability: Justified
nature: Jolly
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor
- Rock Slide / Earthquake

Counters any Volcarona out there, except from the quite popular SpecsRona which can ohko Terakion on the switch with Psychic of 'course. Also outspeeds any common scarfer Sun teams have and also Modest Venusaur, while ohkoing all of them with the right move! Finally it provides us the general fail-safe protection that all scarfers do for any poke that manges to get too speedy like Dragonite, Haxorus, Salamence etc.
Terakion is justifiably one of the best scarfers in OU and i think he fits perfect in the last slot!

As our only hazards is slashed with 2 other (and arguably superior) moves, I suggest we get a hazard user, though most of them are weak too fire. I suggest Tentacruel to help with the fire weakness issue.

[pimg]73[/pimg]

Tentacruel @Black Sludge
Nature: Bold
Liquid Ooze/Rain Dish
16 Speed/ 252 HP/240 Def
-Toxic Spikes
-Rapid Spin/Toxic
-Scald/Hydro Pump/Surf
-Ice Beam/Protect

This is the set from the analysis. It works quite well so we can have Toxic Spikes as our hazard. Our second moveslot is generally Rapid Spin. However, if we let Volcarona get in without being poison by toxic spikes, Toxic may be better seeing as how it helps us to wear away Volcarona, seeing as Tentacruel won't be doing much damage to it. It also helps against Chesto Rest variants. Moveslot 3 is your general water type non-taunt bait offensive move of Choice. Scald for burns, Surf for balance, Hydro Pump for power. Finally, the 4th moveslot is between extra recovery or something to do against Dragonite. Ability is if you want to score on the occasional rain or the Drain Punches from Conk.

Bringing back Gyarados:

First up is physically bulky Gyarados, originally nominated by Pocket:

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 248 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature (+Def, -SpA)
- Waterfall
- Dragon Tail
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt

Heavy Offense, Fire-types, and Fighting-types can be checked with physically-bulky Gyarados. Intimidate neuters Physical Sweepers and Dragon Tail / Thunder Wave disrupts set-up. Gyarados and Jirachi together puts a solid plug on Dragon Dancers. Gyarados not only provides a solid physical defense and key resistances that this team lacks, but also provides paralysis support to this relatively slow team. As Birkal mentioned, although Gyarados is SR-weak, combined with its complementary defense with Jirachi, it easily receives Wishes.

Click to expand...

What was said then is more true now than ever. Gengar + Gyarados + Jirachi give us a very solid core to the two dominating forces on offense, Dragon Dancers and Fighters. Gyarados also gives us a solid check to Volcarona.

I also propose a more offensive variant, as we are lacking a bit in physical offensive presence. (stolen from the analysis)

Substitute + Dragon Dance
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 56 HP / 248 Atk / 204 Spe
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Substitute
- Bounce / Stone Edge

Click to expand...

This Gyarados does not handle various threats such as Volcarona, Terrakion, and Dragonite quite as well. However, it can switch into pokemon such as Ferrothorn (barring a TWave), Jellicent, and Scizor, and proceed to set up on them. The use of Substitute prevents Rotom-W from ruining our day by showing it the door as we throw up a sub in the face of Volt Switch. Between Bounce and Stone Edge, I am torn. Bounce allows us to deal with Ferro and Bulky Waters much easier. However, without the rain we will struggle against Rotom-W much more.

I am partial to bulky Gyarados and Scarf Terrakion, since they deal with HO / Fire-types effectively. Gyarados may want Stone-Edge over T-Wave to better deal with Volcarona in the sun, but more paralysis support for Nidoking and other sweepers are always welcome.

I don't think Sub DD Gyarados work here, since I believe we lack the proper support to facilitate its sweep. This Gyarados really appreciates Rain or perhaps Magnezone to clear away Ferrothorn / Skarmory.

Tentacruel really doesn't help with Volcarona / Darmanitan under Sun, nor does it effectively deal with Haxorus / Dragonite. It's a decent answer to Scizor, though. Slowbro is good, but struggles with Scizor and Volcarona, which Gyarados covers well.

I'm going to suggest my personal favorite, Gastrodon.

Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Storm Drain
4 HP / 200 Def / 88 SpA / 214 SpD
Bold
-Scald
-Ice Beam
-Stockpile
-Recover

The EVs give it very similar defenses and allows it to tank a hit and deal some good damage with scald and ice beam. He counters heatran and dragons rather well, so long as they aren't carrying HP Grass. Stockpile can boost it's defenses to ridiculous levels. Recover is for the reliable recovery, duh.

Please consider it... or not, it doesn't matter too much to me.

first of all, unstabbed poison moves are horrible.
second of all, dont use gems on defensive pokemon.
third of all, stockpile is great and all, but swallow gets rid of all the boosts. use recover instead.

SleepTalk Gyara: No spinner means that we'll have to continually come in on Scizor/darmanitan's u-turns, which won't be easy with SR out. Additionally, rachi has a hard time getting her rocks off (lol) against sun teams, so it will be even harder for gyara to continually come in to these threats. I suggest

Gyarados @ Lefties
Impish 252 HP/ 252 Def/ 4 Atk
- Waterfall
- Dragontail/ Stone edge
- Rest
- Sleeptalk

I think dragontail would work better because if rocks are up, it will add additional damage/pressure on the mons we are trying to cover, although stone edge works really well too. The only thing I worry about is haxorus (DD or CB) who will be able to take multiple hits from stone edge, whereas every mon would hate to take a dragon tail.

^ why run Swallow when you can run Recover and get reliable healing without having to waste your defensive boosts?

And surely something better can be run over unSTAB Sludge Bomb. Maybe Yawn or Ice Beam to deal with dragons in a pinch. What is Sludge Bomb even hitting besides Celebi (which Ice Beam also hits, but probably isn't beating it anytime soon)?

Pocket said:

Volcarona and Scarf Darmanitan under the sun is still threatening, being able to take out all the mons with 1-2 hits and having QD / Scarf to minimize revenge-killing. Heavy Offensive team with mons like Haxorus, Dragonite, and SD Scizor can also be problematic to this team. Since I believe LO Gar patches up the team's offense fairly well, I personally think we should resolve the Fire-type / HO weakness.

Click to expand...

S Def Heatran seems pretty obvious here

you mention Volc, Darmanitan, Dragonite and SD Scizor as problems, so yeah I mean (BAN ME PLEASE)s pretty much the best counter to all those pokemon. Also never hurts to have a dedicated stealth rocker / phazer / extra steel right.

defensive Gyara is decent, but having no rapid spinner isnt all that great, dragonite and haxorus dont really care that much with lum berry (which fatty ALWAYS has) and volc carries hp rock more often than not, as well as taking a waterfall in the sun

edit: actually once youve dragon tailed out the dragons they cant set up on anything without full hp so maybe

I'm going to have to go with alexwolf here. As this team is currently torn apart by both Sun teams and Dragons. Scarf Terrakion would be the perfect member of this team. That being said, Choice Scarf Infernape could be worth a shot, as its ability to fry annoying Steel types could prove invaluable. It still revenge kills most of what Terrakion does, albeit it has less bulk and is therefore less reliable. That is why for the vote, I will be voting Scarf Terrakion. Still worth looking into though.


Infernape @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Blaze
EVs: 108 Atk / 148 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature (+Spe, -SpD)
- Close Combat
- Fire Blast
- Stone Edge
- Hidden Power Ice

Cooky said:

S Def Heatran seems pretty obvious here

you mention Volc, Darmanitan, Dragonite and SD Scizor as problems, so yeah I mean (BAN ME PLEASE)s pretty much the best counter to all those pokemon. Also never hurts to have a dedicated stealth rocker / phazer / extra steel right.

defensive Gyara is decent, but having no rapid spinner isnt all that great, dragonite and haxorus dont really care that much with lum berry (which fatty ALWAYS has) and volc carries hp rock more often than not, as well as taking a waterfall in the sun

edit: actually once youve dragon tailed out the dragons they cant set up on anything without full hp so maybe

Click to expand...

S.Def Heatran gets OHKOed from Volcarona's +1 LO HP Ground. It also dies to may DDers that trouble this team such as Dragonite and Salamence...

It is ok but it leaves us helpless if one of this team greatest enemy, Volcarona, gets a QD and has HP Ground. Against any other version (BAN ME PLEASE) is good if it carries Roar of 'course!

jwoozie said:

^ why run Swallow when you can run Recover and get reliable healing without having to waste your defensive boosts?

And surely something better can be run over unSTAB Sludge Bomb. Maybe Yawn or Ice Beam to deal with dragons in a pinch. What is Sludge Bomb even hitting besides Celebi (which Ice Beam also hits, but probably isn't beating it anytime soon)?

Click to expand...

I run sludge bomb for the 30% poison, but the more I look at it the less appealing it looks. As for swallow, I completly forgot the Gastro got recover. Same with ice beam, forgot about it.

Pareidolia said:

I'm going to suggest my personal favorite, Gastrodon.

Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Storm Drain
4 HP / 200 Def / 88 SpA / 214 SpD
Bold
-Scald
-Ice Beam
-Stockpile
-Recover

The EVs give it very similar defenses and allows it to tank a hit and deal some good damage with scald and ice beam. He counters heatran and dragons rather well, so long as they aren't carrying HP Grass. Stockpile can boost it's defenses to ridiculous levels. Recover is for the reliable recovery, duh.

Click to expand...

Gastro really doesn't appeal to me that much. Frankly it can't deal with physical based dragons all that well (252Atk +1 Dragonite (+Atk) Outrage vs 4HP/200Def Storm Drain Gastrodon (+Def): 87% - 103% (319 - 376 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 21% chance to OHKO.) He's also pretty weak offensively, unless you get a SD boost which is unlikely because people have gotten pretty used to Gastro's presence. I'd rather go with a bulky Water that can do something in return.

nihilist said:

Gyarados @ Lefties
Impish 252 HP/ 252 Def/ 4 Atk
- Waterfall
- Dragontail/ Stone edge
- Rest
- Sleeptalk

I think dragontail would work better because if rocks are up, it will add additional damage/pressure on the mons we are trying to cover, although stone edge works really well too. The only thing I worry about is haxorus (DD or CB) who will be able to take multiple hits from stone edge, whereas every mon would hate to take a dragon tail.

Click to expand...

I like this idea although using rest is risky now since it is guaranteed to last 3 turns.

Cooky said:

S Def Heatran seems pretty obvious here

you mention Volc, Darmanitan, Dragonite and SD Scizor as problems, so yeah I mean (BAN ME PLEASE)s pretty much the best counter to all those pokemon. Also never hurts to have a dedicated stealth rocker / phazer / extra steel right.

defensive Gyara is decent, but having no rapid spinner isnt all that great, dragonite and haxorus dont really care that much with lum berry (which fatty ALWAYS has) and volc carries hp rock more often than not, as well as taking a waterfall in the sun

edit: actually once youve dragon tailed out the dragons they cant set up on anything without full hp so maybe

Click to expand...

Yeah I agree lack of a spinner really hurts Gyara, but I think Gyara is so suitable that we can fix that in the testing phase. Heatran also tends to sit there and take hits, but it can't really recieve wishes from 'Rachi considering they share most of the same weaknesses (except Fire)? Tell me, what player would keep spamming FB on Rachi when Heatran keeps coming in. Heatran also serves much of the same purposes as Jirachi does for us. Gyara gives us a much more flexible core IMO.

New World Order said:

Infernape @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Blaze
EVs: 108 Atk / 148 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature (+Spe, -SpD)
- Close Combat
- Fire Blast
- Stone Edge
- Hidden Power Ice

Click to expand...

I'm not sure about this because Naive HP Ice Infernape (293/177/160) is nearly as frail as Timid perfect IVs 4 HP Gengar (262/156/186) and it doesn't do too much for us defensively, where as you say we struggle. This is why I think we don't need a Scarfer (Gar is pretty fast already) and we need to complete our defensive core because this is a balanced team.

/rant

I am uncertain about Infernape, mainly because it can't dispose Haxorus until it has < 65% health. Unlike Scarf Terrakion, Infernape can deal with Scizor, though.

I took the team out for a test drive with the Bulky Gyarados in the last slot, it's pretty effective and changed my mind that any good Gyarados is a DDer/RestTalker. As to the talk of Sp.Def Heatran, yes! Absolutely yes. It's working wonders, however I have changed up the team a bit. I felt that Virizion just wasn't pulling enough weight so I switched it to a Tinkerbell Celebi which works wonders. Then, I changed Jirachi's set to the Sub+TWave set with 252 hp in order to beat Blissey/Chansey. Losing out on Rachi's Wish hasn't been too big of a deal since every other 'mon has recovery of some sort and Nidoking usually only needs to come in once or twice, rarely taking an attack on the switch.

I also felt that no SR was only hurting the team. That's when I switched Gengar out for Sp.Def Tran with Earth Power over Protect. Gengar was performing well, but I felt it was the most disposable on the team since it lacks the bulk to switch in on a lot of moves, and without Toxic Spikes it'll be hard pressed to actually beat the pink blobs.

I would be hesitant about adding a defensive Gyarados to this team considering its lack of a rapid spinner, stealth rocks is going to eat it up.

So far scarf-Terrakion looks like the most solid choice here to deal with Volcanora and to check other various threats. The only other pokemon that come to mind are Blissey and Heatran, Blissey doesn't seem to solve any other threats, while Heatran might be something to consider. While heatran just flat out loses with HP ground variants, most Volcanora's these days use some other forth more like Morning Sun, or rest. Even if it does run a hidden power, it may just be HP rock. It might be a risk worth taking.

If you use stealth rocks on Jirachi we could go for something with priority to just check it, like Lucario or Scizor with extreme speed or quick attack for example. Dragonite might work as long as you make it an offensive version. I’m just throwing around some ideas, seeing what sticks to the wall.

I'm going to say that Scarf Terrakion is our best bet here, considering that not only does it check haxorus, but it also puts a lot of pressure on sun teams, since we have no direct check for them outside of paralysis support. Any Scizor looking to Bullet Punch can say hi to Rotom-W, who threatens both hydro pump and volt switch.

Yo, NatGeo! Yea, Scarf Terrakion is good, but I think it will make our team weak to SD Scizor, since Rotom-W without Will-O-Wisp / HP Fire is not an effective stopper to Scizor. If we give Jirachi Fire Punch it may be less of an issue, though. Bulky Gyarados can check Sun teams with its great bulk and T-Wave while also dealing with Scizor effortlessly.

jwoozie, I'm glad you gave our team a test-drive! The post you made it is very enlightening, and I'll make sure to keep your post in mind when we enter the next phase in fine-tuning this team (you may still want to copy-paste your post as a reminder, though).

Scizor can be dealt with very easily by either HP Fire/ WoW on Rotom-W or by putting Fire Punch on Jirachi as said again. Of 'course Scizor can threaten some pokes in our team, as a big pain in the ass he is in general, but with careful playing we can handle it.

Nidoking ohkoes Scizor and takes 77,5% maximum form his CB BP. While it seems easy to do 22,5% damage to a not so bulky poke like Nidoking, the fact that LO doesn't affect him negatively and that he is resistant to SR and immune to T-Wave,electric attacks and Toxic means that he can come in for free relatively easy.
Rotom-W with HP Fire or WoW, which we must definitely give him, scares the shit out of Scizor.
Virizion most of the times will be at +2 when Scizor comes in (no player is stupid enough to keep Virizion in against a Scizor at +0), so it will be able to ohko with CC even if it gets killed after from LO damage. Jirachi can paralyze him so that Rotom-W will be able to kill him even at +6 after we sacrifice something.
Gengar and Terakion are the only pokes that give a free turn to Scizor so it can be played around. Also if we put HP Fire on Rotom-W we should put enough S.Atk evs to ohko Scizor after SR, and enough speed evs to outspeed him so we can OHKO him or cripple him before he kos (since Jirachi will not always paralyze him), which he can at +2.

Finally i think that putting HP Fire on Rotom-W is the best idea for 2 reasons...
First so that we will be able to kill Scizor even if Jirachi paralyzed it, because with WoW we wouldn't be able to burn him and Hydro Pump doesn't ohko, while he kos back with Bug Bite at +2.
Second, because Ferro is a pain in the ass for this team. His Spikes are really hurting this team with 4 pokes vulnerable to them (if we put Terakion) and while most of our pokes don't let it setup, Rotom-W, Terakion locked into the wrong move and Jirachi, which except Terakion are our most defensive pokes and will be in a lot of the time, are utter Spikes bait so Ferro can easily get 2-3 layers against us and really make the game more difficult. So with HP Fire on Rotom-W we can 2hko the bastard on the switch-in or simply only let him put 1 layer of Spikes because after 1 HP Fire he will be crippled as hell.

Assuming Jirachi goes Fire Punch, there should be very little that Ferrothorn can set up on, other than on Rotom-W, who would be Volt Switching out anyways. Although HP Fire is useful for nailing Ferrothorn & Scizor, it would only make Rotom-W fare worse against Gastrodon, which would be bad, seeing how the slug walls about half the team already. Virizion, the only mon that can handily kill it, fears Scald burns. Will-O-Wisp may be a more useful option that can also cripple Ferrothorn & Scizor, but Thunder Wave on Rotom-W is pretty much set in stone for now.

Yeah you are right Pocket i didn't think of Gastrodon and Rotoms WoW will definitely help bringing him down. Then i suppose that Fire Punch on Jirachi is our best option if we go with Terakion in the last slot. But then we won't have SR which could be a problem...

EDIT: Maybe we could put Toxic in the last slot of Scarf Terakion to catch unsuspecting Gastrodons on the switch and cripple them. It sounds stupid and situational but may work...