np: RU Stage 8 - Killer Queen (votes inside)

ShakeItUp said:

Moltres: Do Not Ban

Alright so, apparently this is what happens when you give a previously average / relatively good Pokemon a 120 Base Power / 70% accuracy STAB move. Good to know. Anyway, I find this thing to be fine in RU. This is due to the existence of Pokemon such as Lanturn. Lanturn walls Moltres to hell and back, and can Volt Switch out if you switch Moltres out against it. Not to mention, it's not like Nidoqueen vs. Slowking, as Fire Blast + Hurricane does not come close to knocking out Slowking. It's weakness to Stealth Rock is also a major problem. If it was like Ho-Oh and got Regenerator, it would be much harder to play against. Also, spinning can prove to be difficult with Spiritomb and Cofagrigus around. It is also relatively easy for offensive teams to deal with since revenge killing it isn't that hard because it only has base 90 Speed. The SubRoost set is the most popular set, but the problem with it is that Pokemon like Lanturn can wall it easily because it does not have a Grass-type move. If you choose to forgo Substitute to run a Grass-type move, it is also a dilemma since people can just send in some death fodder and revenge kill it. This also makes Moltres more susceptible to status such as paralysis. If one runs a Choice Specs set, it's weakness to Stealth Rock becomes even more of a killer since it can't restore its health with Roost. Also, the move that caused Moltres to even be brought up or suspect discussion, Hurricane, only has 70% accuracy, meaning that it is prone to miss. Overall, I think that Moltres should remain RU.

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Molk said:

Moltres: Do Not Ban

Although Moltres has always been a powerful force in RU, I do not feel that it is bannable, sure it hits very hard, and has few counters, but there are many effective ways to deal with it. The first and most important thing i would like people to consider about Moltres is that its typing kinda shoots itself in the foot. Fire / Flying is NOT a good defensive typing, a 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, common weaknesses to water, electric, and rock, as well as ground when roosting. Due to Moltres's 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, it has to be paired with a rapid spinner to be used to its full potential, admittedly the best spinner in RU (Kabutops) has good synergy with Moltres, but if you can manage to stop your opponent from using Rapid Spin, it shouldn't be as much of a problem. Not to mention that you're forced to spin before Moltres comes out. With Stealth Rock on the field, it is hard to get Moltres in safely, and even if it does get in safely, it's at a crippling 50% health which makes it have to use Roost in some situations where it may need to attack. It's not as if Moltres has a complete lack of checks or even hard counters either; there are many ways to stop Moltres. From a defensive perspective, Lanturn, Slowking, Munchlax and Regirock can easily switch in on moltres and either cripple it with thunder wave or body slam, or simply KO it with Scald or Rock Slide. Rhydon is also a good check, as with a specially defensive ev spread it can take an hp grass, and doesnt really care about Moltres's other attacks. In addition, if Moltres has Substitute, Rhydon can also break through it with Rock Blast. Offense doesn't have an inordinate amount of trouble either, many offensive pokemon can at least revenge kill Moltres. Aerodactyl, Kabutops, Feraligatr, Entei, Rotom and random pokemon like Accelgor and Sceptile that run Hidden Power rock keep Moltres in check. Another point i would like to make is that Moltres's most powerful STAB moves are very inaccurate, while Hurricane
buffed moltres to the point that this thread could be posted, it is also molt's worst enemy, the chance of hitting two hurricanes in a row is actually pretty low(49%). From personal experience i havent had much trouble with moltres despite not having a solid counter, and i dont feel its bannable.

TL;DR: Moltres is a top threat in the RU metagame, but not broken.

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DittoCrow said:

Moltres: Do not Ban

Moltres definitely got a lot better in BW2 due to the addition of Hurricane to its movepool, giving it the ability to deal more damage to Pokemon which resist its Fire-type STAB and remove its former counters such as Slowking. However, I feel that this is not a big enough change to justify Moltres being broken. Sure, Moltres lost a counter or two, but it still has a hard time overcoming its Stealth Rock weakness. Stealth Rock is so easy to keep on the field in a tier such as RU, so Moltres will usually be losing 50% of its HP upon switching in. This makes is very easy to deal with, especially because of the number of good Pokemon which can check it such as Kabutops, Entei, Lanturn, and the multiple other Pokemon which carry priority or Hidden Power Rock. Furthermore, Moltres relies on prediction and the 70% accurate Hurricane, making it undependable in a lot of situations. Between Stealth Rock damage, Life Orb recoil, and offensive pressure in general, Moltres does not have such an easy time knocking out the opposition. I do not think that Moltres influences the metagame in a negative way.

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Texas Cloverleaf said:

Moltres: Abstain

Every experience I've used with it leads me to consider it broken but I can't conclusively with full confidence claim that it should be banned hence abstain.

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Ciele said:

Moltres:

It is 4x Stealth Rock weak, it is weak to common priority (Aqua Jet) and most Grass and Bug types carry HP Rock (or maybe Rock Slide!) to dispose of it. The only thing that's different to the last time it was suspect is that it received Hurricane. Although that is obviously a decent boost, it's certainly not a good enough reason to ban it.

No-one even seems to have a good ban reason for it, so I don't think there's much point in going into any real detail. DittoCrow's summarising post in the Moltres Discussion thread pretty much shows why it deserves to stay in RU.

Do Not Ban

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complete legitimacy said:

Do Not Ban

While Moltres has always been a top-tier threat, it greatly improved because of Hurricane. That being said, it was a little overhyped, since while Slowking isn't necessarily a counter anymore, it's still a great check. Moltres has gotten harder to counter, but it's as easy to check as it's always been. The only major change to Moltres has been Hurricane > Air Slash, but otherwise it's still pretty much the same. I've hardly seen anybody using Substitute, mainly because HP Grass is still better, and that opens up Moltres to the easiest way to check it: revenge killing.

There are so many faster Pokemon that can check Moltres, from the many fast Electric-types to the prominence of HP Rock and the high usage of Aqua Jet users. Most teams have two checks to it just naturally through teambuilding, since there's just so many checks to Moltres. Slowking and Lanturn are its best defensive counters, and Mandibuzz and Clefable can check it. Feraligatr and Kabutops are common, and HP Rock is a staple on Accelgor, Sceptile, and Typhlosion. Manectric, Rotom, Galvantula, and Scarf Rotom-C can all kill Moltres as long as they're not using Volt Switch or an unboosted Thunderbolt in Rotom's case. Archeops and Aerodactyl both destroy it, and bulkier Fire-types such as Entei and Magmortar can take a Hurricane most of the time and KO back with Stone Edge or Thunderbolt. There's a bunch of obscure stuff that checks Moltres too, like Flareon, Altaria, and Lickilicky. These things wouldn't be obscure if Moltres was so overwhelmingly dominant that it needed to be banned. A lot of the the things that check it are just good in their own right.

No matter if it's me or my opponent using Moltres, it hardly ever sweeps. It's most definitely a top-tier threat, and it's most definitely improved, but it's still not banworthy. Now of course, before I say Moltres isn't broken, I have to say that it's 4x weak to Stealth Rock and Hurricane's accuracy sucks. I don't think anyone is voting ban on Moltres, as it's perfectly fine in the tier and is just an influential Pokemon in the metagame, not a broken one.

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Ningildo said:

Moltres: Do not ban

In short (cause I forgot to save my original long ass reasoning), the metagame is very well prepared for it.

Stealth Rock is as common as ever, along with Aqua Jet being very common in the current meta. Also, many faster attackers have either:

a. A Electric STAB (Manetric, Galvantula, Choice Scarf Rotom-C)

b. Hidden Power Rock (a multitude of Grass-types, Cryogonal, Accelgor) or STAB Rock moves (Aerodactyl, Archeops)

So pretty much every team has it covered.

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Double01 said:

Moltres- Do Not Ban
I believe moltres is not a ban worthy in many different reasons. Moltres, although a strong threat, has a few hard counters, specifically RestTalk Lanturn which can consistently switch in on any moltres set and beat it 1v1. Also considering SR is nearly on every team and with the vast amount of ghosts in the tier it is not the easiest job to spin away those rocks. Moltres is always under constant pressure and has limited amount of switch-ins due to the number of weaknesses it has and the SR weakness. Also priority and specifically aqua jet is also very common on teams. In conclusion, although moltres is very dangerous threat it doesnt cross the line of being 'broken' as it moltres is always under constant pressure for the reasons i stated above.

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august said:

moltres - do not ban

with the addition of hurricane, moltres did infact become very threatening, being able to 2hko slowking as well as having a 120 BP STAB move to wreck switch ins. however, moltres is haunted by the same problems that have allowed it to stay unbanned in previous rounds. stealth rock, the main problem, is still as omnipresent as always, and moltres cannot fire off powerful STAB moves when it is constantly forced to roost. it also means you must bring a spinner or you will be severely hampered whenever stealth rock is present. priority haunts moltres as well, and scarvers like manectric, rotomc and braviary can still easily revenge kill. moltres' life orb set is also very prone to misses, especially hurricane.

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Omicron said:

Moltres:

Do Not Ban

The only thing that prompted Moltres to become suspect for this round was the simple fact that it acquired a STAB Hurricane courtesy of the BW2 move tutors. Although it makes Moltres ridiculously powerful, Hurricane has the shitty accuracy of Focus Miss, meaning that more often than not, you will lose thanks to an untimely miss. Moltres already suffers from its other main STAB move lacking 100% accuracy (Fire Blast). Yes, Moltres has instant recovery and whatnot, but it also possesses a 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, a weakness to Aqua Jet, and isn't all that fast either. Most things that are faster than it, such as Manectric, Archeops, Aerodactyl, etc. can all easily OHKO Moltres with their STAB moves. In addition, Lanturn walls the heck outta Moltres; even LO HP Grass fails to 2HKO after SR damage. Lanturn can easily 2HKO with its STABs in return. Moltres isn't broken, period.

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SilentVerse said:

Moltres

Do Not Ban

Moltres is probably one of the most threatening Pokemon on paper in RU at the moment, since it boasts the ability to 2HKO almost everything in the metagame with Fire Blast + Hurricane + Hidden Power Grass. However, in practice, Moltres just isn't really that great. Offensive teams can check it pretty easily since revenge killers like Choice Scarf Rotom-C can outspeed and smash it with Volt Switch. Moltres's Speed isn't amazing either, and there's a lot of offensive Pokemon who can outspeed and KO it after Stealth Rock. Offensive teams often carry strong priority attacks on Pokemon like Kabutops and Entei, both of whom can switch into Fire Blast fairly easily (and Kabutops can kinda take a Hurricane too), and KO Moltres with their priority attacks after Stealth Rock. And, even though it can theoretically 2HKO almost everything on stall, it can't do that reliably in practice. Hurricane's unreliable accuracy really hurts Moltres in this regard; if it misses Hurricane against something like Slowking, it'll get forced out, which is extremely problematic for Moltres because of it's weakness to Stealth Rock. Furthermore, stall teams still have access to great Pokemon like Lanturn who can solidly check Moltres, while also supporting the team with Heal Bell and checking various other threats. While Moltres is an incredibly strong Pokemon, at the moment, it definitely is not broken.

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