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np: RU Stage 8 - Killer Queen (votes inside)

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by Oglemi, Jul 1, 2012.

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  1. SilentVerse

    SilentVerse Into the New World
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    Well, the reason I prefer Sludge Wave is mainly because it makes prediction for Nidoqueen so much easier. Sludge Wave + a super effective coverage move 2HKOes a lot of Pokemon; for example, Sludge Wave + Thunderbolt actually has a really good chance to 2HKO Slowking after Stealth Rock, which is really nice since if I do hit Slowking on the switch with Thunderbolt, I can just use Sludge Wave next for a good chance to 2HKO. This is especially nice if they have, say, a Rotom-C on their team which could easily take Thunderbolt or even Earth Power, and I don't want to risk losing Nidoqueen to Slowking by using Fire Blast. Focus Blast is ok I guess if your team is really weak to Clefable and Munchlax, but the thing is, those two Pokemon are really easy to take advantage of, so I'd rather use Sludge Wave and leave Nidoqueen vulnerable to those two Pokemon, and use something like, say, OTR Cofagrigus or entry hazard users to set up on them.
  2. /B/utterfree

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    So far, you've been correct. Finding teammates who can lure Slowking and other Pokes out for Esca to confront is slightly simpler. I was probably looking in more complicated areas, such as dealing with one of Esca's few (if any) problems in RU: the x4 Fire weakness. Since the only viable Flash Fire 'mon that hasn't been in UU or 'bove is Rapidash (Flash Fire Typhlosion is Unreleased, iirc), I generally use a Choice Band Rapidash set with Drill Run, Wild Charge, Flare Blitz, and Megahorn as well. Then there's also Water Absorb Lapras, in which I use a mixed Curse set (Surf, Drill Run, and Ice Shard are actually sufficient coverage), forming my defensive trio. As for other Pokes, I'm trying to mix and match to see which ones work best in RU, with or without Escavalier's aid. Sceptile is one of my keepers, but now I must decide on two other Pokemon I keep on my team before I continue.
  3. EonX

    EonX One of a Kind
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    Been messing around with the EVs on SR+3 Attacks Nidoqueen, particularly the best Speed tier to hit while trying to keep some of her natural bulk which is very useful for the many Fighting, Bug, and Rock attacks you tend to face in the tier, and I've been very pleased with hitting 230 Speed(168 EVs) which allows Nidoqueen to get rid of Shell Smash Omastar, and Dragon Dance Crawdaunt, among others, before they get a chance to hit Nidoqueen. Sadly, you can't get in front of Cryo without near max EV investment, but if you catch it on the switch with Fire Blast, it's forced to try and Recover stall or spin and die. Going to test out Escavalier pretty soon and see how well it works with Mesprit, an old favorite of mine from Gen 4.
  4. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Yeah i guess you are right. Clefable and Munchlax seem easy to handle with other teammates.

    The only problem is against stall teams, which will be able to wall your OTR Cofa or spin away your hazards, so having a poke that can 2hko everything in their team is very helpful.
  5. /B/utterfree

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    I'm mostly curious, and I've been told why Metang got himself promoted to RU (Hilarity, thy name is Molk). However, what set do most Metang use to establish their presence in RU? I mostly want to see if the Poke in question can pull off a set that isn't a lesser version of Aggron, Klinklang, or any other Steel-types in the tier.

    I also want to see if Metang isn't just set-up bait for any of the other Pokemon in the tier. We don't need another Ferroseed taking up a tierslot in a metagame it really can't hold up in.
  6. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
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    "Metang does nothing"

    -President James K. Molk
  7. /B/utterfree

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    If that's the case, then I must undo Molk's work in order to make the RU tier more balanced.

    So far, this is a set I like in Lapras, who acts as a teammate to Escavalier and Rapidash:

    Lapras @ Leftovers
    Ability: Water Absorb
    Nature: Sassy
    EVs: 248 HP, 8 Atk, 252 SpDef
    Moves:
    1. Curse
    2. Surf
    3. Ice Shard
    4. Drill Run / Thunderbolt

    As I already have two prominent physical sweepers in Rapidash and Escavalier, I wanted to do a mixed set with Lapras. While its offensive STAB combo is awesome, it also needs Drill Run in order to get past Lanturn.

    Lapras' access to Thunderbolt should also be considered. If I decide to have someone dedicated to eradicating Lanturn, for example, I could easily replace Drill Run with Thunderbolt. The combination of Electric, Ice, and Ground-type attacks is also unresisted, so there's that. However, I want Surf to be able to deal with Nidoqueen on the switch; Ice Shard is usually not enough to OHKO unless I get more than one Curse boost in.
  8. Omicron

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    With that EV spread, Lapras is horrendously weak... It probably gets KOed by every Fighting-type in the tier, or every Electric or Grass-type. Ice Shard won't be doing any damage without a few Curses, and Lapras really finds it difficult to set up in this fast paced metagame. Lapras has some cool perks, but I don't think it's very effective in the RU metagame.
  9. /B/utterfree

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    Actually, this isn't quite true. While some super-effective moves do one-shot Lapras, many of them actually fail to OHKO. As far as 2HKOing is concerned, though, you would be correct in this assertion.

    Nevertheless, getting Lapras set up is as difficult as people have said it is. But when the Curse boosts start racking up, then the fun begins. I do love a good 2HKO-the-Lanturn-on-the-switch when it comes to unboosted Drill Runs, though. :)
  10. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    RestTalk Dragonair seems very promising in this meta. Here is the set i am talking about:

    Dragonair @ Eviolite
    252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Careful nature
    Ability: Marvel Scale
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage

    When asleep, or statused in general, Dragonair hits 326 / 350 / 393 defenses, which is simply insane. If you can remove it's few hard counters, such as phazers, taunters, and some steels, you can go to town, and easily sweep entire teams.

    Magneton support is mandatory since he traps and kills Escavalier effortlessly. He also can trap Aggron and Klinglang, while also dealing a nice ~82% damage to Steelix with HP Fire (assuming Specs and a Modest nature). Not that eliminating Steelix is absolutely necessary, as Dragonair wins vs Steelix in a last mon scenario.

    Pursuit support is also very helpful, as Haze Cofagrigus can be very annoying. You could pp stall her if it wasn't for Shadow Ball's SpD drops, which means that eventually it will beat you. CB Drapion is able to deal with Cofa pretty good as long as it doesn't come into WoW.

    All in all a very good poke, that is relatively easy to use, but requires a lot of support. But given the right conditions it is almost unstoppable.

    What are your thoughts?
  11. /B/utterfree

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    I remember facing against that Dragonair set a couple times. I laughed at it with my mixed Curse Lapras set, treating the Dragonair as set-up bait for Curses that proceed to take down not only the Dragonair, but also at least one other opposing Pokemon as well. Marvel Scale Dragonair's good, but not that good (I've actually worked around it many times on PS!, most using Waterfall in lieu of Outrage or Sleep Talk).

    Most Pokes in RU could still handle Dragonair, even with support from Magneton and Drapion. De facto hazing can still be done via Circle Throw Poliwrath, and Roar/Dragon Tail sets on many bulky Pokes. Furthermore, choosing Magneton and Drapion as teammates alone opens yourself up to a nasty Ground weakness already.
  12. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    The problem with phazing is that it only delays the inevitable. Once Dragonair is the last mon, and Drapion/Magneton have eliminated what they should have, Dragonair is really hard to stop.

    But yeah a physical attacker with Curse and Ice STAB would be a pain for Dragonair. Thx god noone uses him...
  13. /B/utterfree

    /B/utterfree

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    I've been trying to use Lapras in a tier outside of NU for quite some time. At least now it's not entirely walled by Lanturn, courtesy of Drill Run.
  14. spuds4ever

    spuds4ever

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    Unless they get an air slash flinch with sigilyph ;)

    But yeah, dragons are just in general pretty beastly in RU. Druddigon, Dragonair, and Fraxure all got great new toys with BW2 and Altaria is already a complete beast in RU.

    Much as I like lapras, I don't really think it has any place in RU. With fighting types being even more common here than in NU, you have to have something really out-standing to be a successful ice type in RU. Jynx has a great ability and a perfect movepool to fit its good stats and cryo has awesome bulk and all-round utility especially with rapid spin.

    The main problem with dragonair I think is that you have to last a long time without suffering any bad luck, defense drops, flinches, etc. as you slowly stack up boosts and even then hazers and phazers also make life miserable for it. Pretty much anything with dragon dance can succeed in RU I've found.

    DD feraligatr is a seriously under-prepared for threat that sweeps really well due to its great coverage, with waterfall, ice punch, and crunch missing out only on poliwrath (who admittedly is one of the best defensive pokemon around this round). I get goosebumps thinking how good this set will be when sheer force is released...
  15. /B/utterfree

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    The lack of viable Ground-types in the tier this round is a bit jarring. Of the three viable RU Ground-types, Steelix, Nidoqueen, and Quagsire, only the latter third has any reliable recovery. I consider Lanturn to be a problem for my team, so I'll have to either re-enlist Golurk, or...

    I'll bring Torterra to the fray. I'll be testing the Curse set from Smogon to see how well it holds up in RU (it's even listed in the RU analysis, to my knowledge). Maybe if more Ground-types show up aside from Quagsire and Steelix, then Lanturn might not be such a nuisance to the tier as far as balance is concerned.
  16. august

    august get a grip mothafucka
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    hmmmm some things i have noticed from my ru stint so far

    1) crawdaunt is an absolute monster. why dont people use this more? it seems to me like tangrowth usage has fallen a lot, and crawdaunt is here to take full advantage of it. i've been using substitute + dragon dance, and by smart double switching to get in on slowking (works out really well because slowking thinks it can come in on everything because of regenerator) and getting up a sub, as scald wont break it. slowking usually switches out though, and from there you can start to wear down the initial crawdaunt switch in, or just boost up and go. also cool cause it sets up on cb tomb pursuit, so sometimes i let cryogonal die just to get a free chance to dance.

    you can run daunt in conjunction with spikes too because absolutely no rapid spinner is going to want to come in on it. sandslash and cryogonal are way too scared. crawdaunt singlehandedly beats stall unless they run bulky restalk poliwrath or seed bomb ferroseed, arguably the only 2 hard counters.

    2) no love for braviary? 123 base attack is awesome, and with u turn to get away from steelix/rhydon/bulky steel rock switch ins i see no reason not to use it. cb brave bird ohkos nidoqueen, frustration does a shitload to lanturn, who thinks it can come in on brave bird. scarf set is cool too for brave bird spamming late game with hazards, because it 2hkos sandslash/ohkos cryogonal

    3) belt magmortar is pretty awesome with hp grass for lanturn and earthquake for flareon. fire blast/thunderbolt still smash regenerator cores and feign the choice set pretty effectively. lanturn has become more common in an attempt to check mag but hp grass 2hkos the switch in after stealth rock damage. flareon hasnt become too common yet but i have a feeling it will start to become more common on stall as a wish passer/secondary fire check, and ebelt earthquake 2hkos. another cool anti spin mon

    but yeah just some things ive noticed so far :toast: mostly just want people to realize how awesome crawdaunt is and try him out
  17. spuds4ever

    spuds4ever

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    I agree. I've been using crawdaunt myself actually and it is beastly. The only real disadvantage is how hard it can be to set up, especially against offensive teams where it isn't so useful, but yeah, crawdaunt is really good if you give it a hand setting up. The main problem is poliwrath, though, as it is definetely one of the best defensive pokemon in the tier at the moment and I'm surprised not more people have caught on. Though using crawdaunt alongside medicham or gallade is a pretty good idea seeing as you can take down poliwrath and bait out slowking.

    One thing though that I've been very impressed with is emboar. I'm surprised not more people have realised that it's amazing coverage is literally unwallable in RU, unless you use something like thick fat grumpig...

    Just with STAB moves alone and a choice band equipped, you have a good chance of 2hkoing nearly everything in the tier but throw in godly coverage moves like head smash and wild charge, moves entei would kill for, and you have one dangerous pig on your hands. Choice Scarf is surprisingly strong too and you can revenge kill a lot thanks to great coverage.
  18. /B/utterfree

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    I've actually caught on to Poliwrath's usability when I was looking for partners for Escavalier. I use one of the standard sets for it, but I've had teams get wrecked by primarily Poliwrath setting up on them. I love Lapras, but it can't pull off an awesome SubPunch set like Poliwrath can.

    My Torterra set's also capable of wrecking entire teams whole, and I'm actually very surprised it hasn't made it up to at least RU yet. Lotsa shit get wrecked by Curse-boosted STAB moves. Then I reliably recover lest they be a rain team (which, on Pokemon Showdown, I've yet to locate any rain teams).
  19. Boingo

    Boingo

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    That reminds me, how does Rock Polish Torterra fare in this meta? Since it was one of last gens big threats in UU and all.

    I always shy away from Curse on ANY Pokémon. Something's bound to come in, outspeed, and exploit your biggest weakness. Torterra hates ice, fire and bug...very exploitable. Lapras has nice SpDef but I'd assume it's still 2HKO'd by strong Thunderbolts and Leaf Storms?
  20. /B/utterfree

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    Curse sets are actually good on naturally slow Pokes that aren't Ghost-typed. Usually they're bulky enough to pull it off, and when they do it's glorious. Then again, it is difficult when you're confronting Accelgor and equally-swift Pokes in RU and UU.

    Anyway, I'm not seeing the merit of Ferroseed in RU anymore. Especially not when there are so many better Steel-types in the tier who can do Ferroseed's job 100 times better in both RU and NU. I've confronted a few Ferroseeds who then die easily, or lose any value in their teamslot by my Trick-ing their Eviolite away. Ones running Protect I laugh at, because it means they're set-up fodder wholesale.
  21. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Rotom-C is still disgustingly effective as a scarfer. This fucker and SD Aqua Jet Kabutops are always a problem for every single offensive team i make... The list of offensive pokes that can come into Kabutops is so fucking small... Sceptile? OHKOed from Stone Edge... Rotom-C? 2HKOed with SE + AJ. Offensive Drapion? 2HKOed with SE + AJ. Hitmonchan? OHKOed with +2 Aqua Jet after Spikes. Lilligant? OHKOed with SE. Seriously this thing is fucking insane, and one the biggest threats to any offensive team. If you want to run pure offense, be sure to not have pokes weak to Aqua Jet, and to have pokes that can ohko Kabutops (thankfully this is not difficult).
  22. complete legitimacy

    complete legitimacy Honko's Happy Funtime With Men
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    You obviously haven't faced any good players using Ferroseed (although to be fair not many good players use Ferroseed; it's a fact, I don't agree with it though). Ferroseed most definitely has a niche as one of the best defensive Spikers in RU. Also, when you talk about "so many" Steels doing Ferroseed's job better, the only one that really comes close is Steelix. Its typing basically makes it a cross between Tangrowth and Steelix, and can handle a lot of what either of them do. However, Ferroseed has some things over Steelix such as Spikes, Thunder Wave, and an arguably better typing, more suited to wall things such as Feraligatr and Kabutops. Thunder Wave is arguably its most important move, meaning that only Ground-types such as Nidoqueen are truly safe switch-ins. It's really easy to predict a switch-in from Moltres or Entei, and with Thunder Wave they're crippled immensely. Ferroseed is stupidly hard to KO with either a physical or special move, surviving stuff like +2 Omastar's Life Orb Ice Beam, CB Druddigon's Superpower, and sometimes even Scarf Primeape's Close Combat. It beats Steelix and Sandslash 1-on-1, and can just annoy your opponent in general. However, I do agree with you about Protect, since the only moves Ferroseed should be running is Spikes or SR/Thunder Wave/Leech Seed/Gyro Ball unless you don't need extra hazards for some strange reason. Also, I personally never switch in Ferroseed to Rotom or Rotom-C.

    tl;dr: FerroSTRONGTH
  23. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent Yeah, well. The Dude abides
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    I like Ferroseed, it's an excellent utility Pokemon. Unfortunatey, it's pure setup bait for Pokemon that can mow through your team, and thus not caring about Spikes, such as Bouffalant and most Grass-types.

    However, I'd like to give a shoutout to Jynx. She's easily been the MVP on my most recent team, and she sits in a very, very good speed tier. normally I use her to simply sleep the opponent's lead, then setup a Sub as they switch (or lol attempt to wake up). If the switchin is faster (and thus frailer), I'll go for the Ice Beam for a nice solid smack. If it's slower, I can just Nasty Plot and proceed to rip it apart on the next turn. Fact is, for some reason people actually SET UP ON JYNX behind a Substitute, while I use another Nasty Plot, sometimes even reaching 3. A +4 Jynx OHKOd specially defensive Cryogonal after SR and a tiny bit of residual damage with Ice Beam. If that's not phenomenal firepower, I don't know what is. Jynx is scarily fast, outspeeding and OHKOing massive threats such as Nidoqueen and Moltres without setup after Stealth Rock. If people lead with Nidoqueen, you can actually just one shot her with Ice Beam. Steel-types give her the willies (well, Escavalier and Klinklang), especially the latter, as it can KO through Substitute. If you haven't already slept an opponent, these are the ones to sleep. Generally I use Steelix to counter them, but obviously the ideal partner is Magneton (unfortunately I need SR on the team). Water-types can't beat Jynx for the most part, as she's immune to their STAB and resistant to Ice Beam, and can just setup and beat them with her own Ice Beam. Obviously Feraligatr, Kabutops and Poliwrath are more annoying, as they all have other moves to hit her with. Grass-types are therefore still good partners.

    I've so far been using the best set (Sub/LK/NP/IB), but you can always run a coverage move like Psychic/Psyshock to more quickly eliminate things resistant to Ice. Slowking resists this, but unless it has Fire Blast it's going up the river.
  24. DittoCrow

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    We will be having a suspect discussion on IRC in #rarelyused about Nidoqueen, Moltres, and possibly Gothitelle, so come join!

    One will be held today (August 11th) at 8:00 PM EST (GMT -4) and tomorrow (August 12th) at 8:00 PM EST (GMT -4) (the Sunday time is subject to change).
  25. Oglemi

    Oglemi it's me heysup's gay friend, the legendary gaysup
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    Nearly all the votes are in, Nidoqueen first:

    So with a 1-8 vote to not ban and 2 abstains, Nidoqueen will not be banned

    Honko will not vote for this round, and SV can post his vote here when he's ready.
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