np: RU Stage 8 - Killer Queen (votes inside)

[Oglemi]

Well, it's that time again, and it looks like we got some new additions this time! Welcome to the RU club Nidoqueen and Escavalier!

Not only that, but BW2 has really begun to shake up our tier. Hurricane Moltres, Imposter Ditto, Regenerator Amoonguss, and Roost Braviary and Archeops are just a few of the major changes that have taken place.

So what's going to happen now? Will Nidoqueen and Escavalier prove to be too much for RU, or will they fit right in? What about those BW2 changes? Will we see some new broken stuff that hasn't bee discovered yet?

If you haven't yet, check out Pokemon Showdown! In a short while Smogon will be merging with PS! and house our server, tournaments, and ladder there. PS! also already has all of the BW2 changes implemented. It isn't perfect yet, but get over there and try it out!

Finally, there's going to be some shakeups to the council later today, so keep your eyes peeled for that!

And... here's the song!

[youtube]xVjOK2KCwqg[/youtube]

This round will end July 27, at 11:59 EST at which time the ID thread will be posted and the suspects will be determined, with voting taking place on that Saturday.

 

[A Fhaol Bhig]

I can't believe Escavalier dropped down! Can't Wait to abuse him, though I'm extremely upset he did not get Drill Run.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

RU might be the best tier in the game right now.

Two of the best songs of all time for the past two rounds!

 

[jake]

Oh god I'm so incredibly excited to play with Esca. CB Esca is probably going to be one of the most dangerous weapons in the meta, despite a lot of solid checks like Steelix and Aggron (CB Rock Smash 2HKOes Aggron though, and CB Iron Head has a pretty good shot at it with Spikes up). Return gives it the ability to KO some of the fast Fire-types after a bit of prior damage if they try to switch in (Moltres and Typhlosion are dead after SR, and Entei will kill itself with Flare Blitz afterwards). Plus, Esca absolutely dominates all the spinners around. Offensive Sandslash is OHKOed 50% of the time after SR, defensive Sandslash is easily 2hkoed, Kabutops is cleanly OHKOed even with a defensive spread, Hitmonchan is demolished by Iron Head... And as far as the 'best' spinner goes, Esca's CB Pursuit will outdamage Cryo's Recover and easily OHKO if it switches, which is pretty fantastic for offensive teams that don't want to have to deal with trying to spinblock that fucker (Smeargle teams!). Cofag is also 2HKOed by Iron Head which is lovely. I'M SO EXCITED yet lazy to make a team. I'll probably get to that tomorrow, sometime.

 

[alexwolf]

Let's see how Cryogonal is going to adapt with one more strong Pursuit trapper in RU. Maybe Reflect will become a staple... Who knows?

Also an offensive tank Nidoqueen seems very sexy right now. Very good firepower without LO recoil, good utility with SR, good bulk and resistances, and the ability to beat every spinner in RU!

 

[breh]

I've been playing RU a bit and I've only played a few matches, but I can say a few things really quickly.

Nidoqueen is fantastic. It has great bulk, great attacking prowess, Toxic Spikes AND Stealth Rock, fantastic coverage... It's a wonderful and intimidating mon. This is possibly a result of the fact that my team is largely too slow to do much to it, but it's really really cool.

I've been screwing around a bit with Heavy Metal Aggron, which happily OHKOes a lot of things that give it trouble. Nidoqueen, for example, takes almost as much from it as it does from EQ (180 BP with STAB). Heavy Slam defines "spammable move", more or less. I've only seen one Escavalier (under the command of omicron); it's been neat, but it hasn't been giving me problems by sheer chance. Most of my team's mons either give it problems of some sort or can flat out OHKO it with Fire-type coverage moves. Still, it's an incredibly strong mon. I wonder what happens if somebody invests in a fast spread.

 

[Endorfins]

While ones first inclination is to slap a Choice Band on Escavalier and spam Megahorn, I've been toying with more defensive sets. A specially defensive set still has quite alot of power and extremely underrated bulk. It comfortably takes on OTR Cofagrigus, Knocking Off its item and Toxicing it. Non fire attack wielding Slowking and Tangrowth are also vulnerable to Megahorn while common switch ins such as Steelix get their Leftovers remove.
I've seen only one Nidoqueen but its obvious that it is a huge threat. It can setup hazards with near impunity, and its STABs have excellent coverage. Nidoqueen should be something to watch out for.

 

[spuds4ever]

Nidoqueen will be a welcome addition. Bulky offense now has a really great hazards-setter with good offensive presence.

Honestly, I'm very surprised esca actually dropped down. I'm more dreading than excited tbh. The main thing problem is probably to heavy offense players who will now be forced to run a fire type on EVERY team. Granted this isn't such a bad idea in the first place, but with fire being an even more important type now, I think we may well end up with a very hazards-heavy tier, a bit like what happened to UU when fire became very important.

Edit: actually, stall will also have it rough seeing as steelix will have to be on every team. Maybe this is actually worse for stall.

 

[alexwolf]

Nidoqueen will be a welcome addition. Bulky offense now has a really great hazards-setter with good offensive presence.

Honestly, I'm very surprised esca actually dropped down. I'm more dreading than excited tbh. The main thing problem is probably to heavy offense players who will now be forced to run a fire type on EVERY team. Granted this isn't such a bad idea in the first place, but with fire being an even more important type now, I think we may well end up with a very hazards-heavy tier, a bit like what happened to UU when fire became very important.

Edit: actually, stall will also have it rough seeing as steelix will have to be on every team. Maybe this is actually worse for stall.

Poliwrath exists also, and is a very good mon for stall teams, so i don't see them having so much trouble with Escavalier.

But i fully agree with you about offensive teams. My most successful offensive team struggles against Escavlaier, because it is so damn bulky and hits like a truck.

 

[Hot N Cold]

Let's see how Cryogonal is going to adapt with one more strong Pursuit trapper in RU. Maybe Reflect will become a staple... Who knows?

Also an offensive tank Nidoqueen seems very sexy right now. Very good firepower without LO recoil, good utility with SR, good bulk and resistances, and the ability to beat every spinner in RU!

Also if Escavalier is very used, HP fire should be a good option in Offensive Cryogonal (like lure), the only problem really is Sp Def Escavalier, you need predict the switch then 2HKO with HP Fire.

~ Hidden Power Fire: 312-368 (90.96 - 107.28%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock to CB Escavalier.

~ Hidden Power Fire: 224-268 (65.11 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO to SDef Escavalier.

 

[Double01]

Anyone else think lilligants usage will go down? Because now lilligant has 4MSS because it has to choose if it wants to hit escavalier and ferroseed with hp fire or moltres and entei with hp rock

 

[Endorfins]

Yeah, Lilligant really suffers from its terrible coverage, and whichever Hidden Power it chooses, it will always be walled by a common metagame threat. However, if your team successfully removes those that resist Lilligant's attacks, its so easy to sweep with just a couple of Quiver Dances and Sleep Powder.
Escavalier dropping down really causes problems for Pokemon who rely on Hidden Power as a coverage move (Lilligant, Tangrowth, Accelgor), in order to combat Escavalier they need Hidden Power Fire, but to take down the threatening Moltres, they need Hidden Power Rock.

 

[spuds4ever]

Pokemon with lack of coverage won't be the only to suffer. I think drapion usage will plummet as escavalier takes over as the premier pursuiter and ghost killer. At least until ghosts start using HP fire, then drapion might make a comeback.

But yeah, this "obligatory fire type" for offensive teams is really not my cup of tea. Maybe we'll figure out some ways for offense to beat esca without fire types....

 

[Explorer]

Drapion has been my go-to for when I want to set up Toxic Spikes in RU, but is Nidoqueen going to be the superior option at this point?

And by HP Fire on Ghosts, who would make use of it other than Cofagrigus and Spirotomb? (Golurk virtually never runs special sets)

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Nidoqueen does not outclass Drapion. There's no question that Nidoqueen is the better overall Pokemon, but Drapion definitely has his uses in that he can better check the #1 Pokemon in RU: Cofagrigus. They also hit opposite sides of the Physical/Special spectrum, meaning that almost automatically Nidoqueen cannot outclass Drapion.

Drapion also can get past his counters with Swords Dance, giving him the unpredictability factor that Nidoqueen so sorely misses. Plus, Drapion is fast while Nidoqueen is slow. In a tier with so many powerful attackers such as MOLTRES (the new RU god), Speed is insanely important to have.

In essence, Drapion is a powerful Pokemon who can run both a supportive and offensive set, while Nidoqueen is a potent Special attacker with supportive qualities. Also Drapion looks cooler and has a cooler name.

 

[Rakan]

But Nidoqueen can 2HKO Cofagrigus with Sheer Force LO Earth Power, and isn't hindered by WoW... I wouldn't say one or the other is better, just different. They accomplish different things, and are good at their respective roles.

Also Toxic Spikes sucks js

 

[Oglemi]

Yeah Toxic Spikes are a poor idea in RU since Qwilfish, Roselia, Drapion, and now Nidoqueen are some of the most popular Pokemon in the tier. Not to mention the fact that a large majority of the tier, save for Cofag, Tangrowth, and Slowking, don't necessarily mind TSpikes. Uxie, Steelix, Escavalier, Moltres, Cryogonal all don't really give two shits about them lol.

Also, has anybody played with offensive Nidoqueen yet? Nidoqueen's coverage is almost unmatched in RU, and the natural bulk she carries just means that she's harder to revenge kill than most other sweepers/wallbreakers. Thoughts?

 

[Oglemi]

O yeah, what I'm supposed to be posting here :x

This round will end July 27, at 11:59 EST at which time the ID thread will be posted and the suspects will be determined, with voting taking place on that Saturday.

 

[Oglemi]

Ugh oh yeah and one other thing

Be sure to ladder on PO. The ladder on PS! isn't quite ready yet, not to mention there's a few bugs that need to be fixed.

In the event that we switch to PS! in the middle of the round, I'll be averaging the ladder rankings between the new ladders. If we're able to migrate the PO ladder over to PS!, you can bet your ass that's what'll be happening.

 

[alexwolf]

Yeah Toxic Spikes are a poor idea in RU since Qwilfish, Roselia, Drapion, and now Nidoqueen are some of the most popular Pokemon in the tier. Not to mention the fact that a large majority of the tier, save for Cofag, Tangrowth, and Slowking, don't necessarily mind TSpikes. Uxie, Steelix, Escavalier, Moltres, Cryogonal all don't really give two shits about them lol.

Also, has anybody played with offensive Nidoqueen yet? Nidoqueen's coverage is almost unmatched in RU, and the natural bulk she carries just means that she's harder to revenge kill than most other sweepers/wallbreakers. Thoughts?

Yeah i have tried an offensive 3 attacks (Tbolt + EP + Flamethrower) + SR set with max SpA and Modest, 250 Speed to outrun most Cryogonal and rest to HP (not much but still) with LO.

She 2hkoes the entire meta (Munchlax and Clefable need Focus Blast), but she can be played around. Slowking is a wonderful pivot to have against Nidoqueen, and if he comes in on anything except Tbolt, without SR, he can weaken Nidoqueen with Scald, leaving her easy prey for any priority user or faster mon.

Moltres is also a very good check, as the only move that deals real damage to it is Tbolt, so as long as you avoid that you can Fire Blast Nidoqueen to hell (Fire Blast from Timid LO Moltres does 87.57 - 103.41% to 4 HP Nidoqueen, which is a 62.5% chance to OHKO after SR. With a Modest nature you have a 75% chance to unconditionally OHKO her and you get a sure OHKO after SR).

Finally, Cryogonal can come into a baited ground and electric attack and 2hko her with Ice Beam, since even a Fire Blast cannot ohko SpDefensive Cryo after Tbolt (the second best move against Cryo except Focus Blast) with SR off the field.

All and all i think that Nidoqueen is a nice addition to RU, that helps break some dominating forces in the meta (TanKing), acts as a solid physical wall with T-Spikes and SR that can absorb T-Spikes, while not being overpowered in terms of offense due to the lack of speed.

 

[Rakan]

For offensive Nidoqueen I run a set like the following:

Nidoqueen @ Life Orb
Modest Nature
252 SpA / 252 Speed / 4 Def
- Earth Power
- Fire Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Stealth Rock

Between the three coverage moves, Nidoqueen can decisively destroy most of RU. Thunderbolt can even 2HKO Slowking after Stealth Rock, and it's guaranteed with SR and Spikes. Fire Blast hits Rotom-C and other annoying Grass-types, while Earth Power is obligatory STAB. Stealth Rock is mainly filler, since Nidoqueen doesn't really need Ice Beam thanks to Thunderbolt and Fire Blast (besides no one uses Altaria 9.9). Good set, although it certainly lacks the bulk of a more defensive variant, which is definitely noticeable :(

edit: fu alexwolf ninja :(

 

[jake]

As long as you guys aren't idiots and run Timid solely to outspeed Smeargle. . . .

 

[/B/utterfree]

I tried Escavalier some. Even though I've lost battles even with him, he generally takes a Poke or two down before getting KO'd. If I made a better team for Esca, then I'm certain I can still play up his myriad strengths while minimizing any flaws in him whatsoever.

I'm going to look up different Flash Fire Pokes to see if I can make one of 'em really useful for a partner to go with Escavalier. I'm thinking of going with Rapidash, but I shall check to see how viable he is.

To be frank, finding good teammates to help Esca is a bit harder in RU than it is in UU.

 

[SilentVerse]

Ehh, I have to disagree, /B/utterfree. From my experience anyway, Escavalier is surprisingly simple to find good partners for. Escavalier loves opposing Grass-types, Slowking, and Cryogonal in particular, since they're all very easy for it to deal with. So, you just need to find Pokemon who can lure those Pokemon in for Escavalier to capitalize on. I've personally had a lot of success using Mesprit in particular. Mesprit works really well since Slowking is one of the first responses opponents will use against it. Mesprit can just U-turn out of Slowking to Escavalier, which helps Escavalier by luring in something that's easy for Escavalier to deal with, giving it the opportunity to toss out its insanely powerful Megahorns, while also letting it help Mesprit by removing Slowking from the match. Mesprit also destroys Nidoqueen, Qwilfish, and similar Pokemon which can actually take Escavalier's Megahorn, and it does quite a bit of damage to OTR Cofagrigus with Psychic, which helps wear it down. Lanturn also works well from my experience though, as does stuff like Rotom-C and Manectric, since they lure out those Grass-types which Escavalier can deal with so easily. Escavalier can also double as a Pursuit trapper, so I've found that it can fit surprisingly well onto most teams.

Offensive Nidoqueen has also been very deadly. I've basically used Omicron's set as well, only with Sludge Wave over Stealth Rock since I already had a Stealth Rock user on my team. If you can fit another Stealth Rock user on your team, I encourage you do so since Sludge Wave is an incredible coverage move for Nidoqueen. It hits so many things neutrally, and it's much easier to just throw out to deal massive damage to almost everything, unlike Earth Power. Most of the Pokemon that resist or are immune to Sludge Wave get wrecked by Nidoqueen's other coverage moves anyway, which makes it especially deadly.

 

[alexwolf]

SV i think that Focus Blast is better as a fourth move. The ability to 2HKO Clefable with FB + EP, and 2HKO Munchlax after SR is much better than 2hkoing Uxie, which is a poke that has no reliable recovery and can be Pursuit trapped as well.