Smogon Community - View Single Post - np: Intro to Ubers Testing: It's the End of the World as We Know It (And I Feel Fine)

**Hugendugen** · Oct 11th, 2012, 6:03:55 AM

First of all Pocket, you mention that 'even 20% sand evasion is unacceptable, because "things get out of player's hands."' That may be true in OU, but in Ubers we examined a case by case basis and concluded that for example Sub-SD Sand Veil Garchomp is a perfectly acceptable strategy. My point follows that just because something is luck-based, it's not necessarily grounds for a ban. When you consider how many random variables we're already faced with - games decided on a 30% scald burn or a crucial miss; even damage rolls and crit chances that happen practically every turn - how are we to say that suddenly the 30% chance of an OHKO move makes the game uncompetitive? This seems like an utterly arbitrary reason for a ban, based on a preconceived notion of what's "right" for the metagame.

Principally, I'm of the opinion that we should only ban what proves to be broken or significantly skews the metagame in an undesirable direction. Now I can’t tell you what the suspect tests will show us, but from what I've been able to gather so far, allowing OHKO moves does neither of these things. While they are viable choices on a couple of mons (Sheer Cold Rest Talk Ogre/Fissure Sub Gliscor/Fissure Sub Spin Excadrill) and even allow certain mons to find a previously unheard of niche in the tier (Sheer Cold Hydration Lapras/Sheer Cold Roost Aricuno), all of these are manageable in their own way.

Kyogre can be forced out by super effective moves or powerful stabs. It can also be forced to sleep for example by protect/sub stalling with toxic or toxic spike support.
Fissure Gliscor still faces the same issues with flying types that it did previously, particularly Skarmory and Xatu as well as Bronzong and Air Balloon steel types. It does become more dangerous to switch into, but it’s also significantly worse against Dialga, Forretress, Excadrill and Terrakion amongst others.
Fissure Excadrill certainly is more difficult to spinblock as it can just keeping hitting even a bulky ghost with Fissure until luck plays on its side. But as it will tend to use Mold Breaker to hit Gira-o, it’s still outsped and killed by large parts of the metagame. Besides, easier spinning may very well be a healthy development for our oh so hazard-centric tier.
Articuno has a crippling x4 Stealth Rocks weakness and will struggle to take hits from the many heavy hitters. Mind Reader isn’t very reliable either as the opponent can simply switch into something that will outspeed and kill.
With Hydration Lapras can be a bitch to take out, especially if your team is quite dependent on residual damage, but it will still hate switching in and out of rocks/spikes. It’s also quite slow so may struggle to rest off damage before taking a hit from one of its several common weaknesses.

Overall, these are all viable and competitive Pokémon, but still definitely not broken and definitely not ban-worthy. I’m looking forward to testing OHKO moves more thoroughly and excited to see what other sets people come up with. Perhaps someone may end up stumbling upon a truly broken set, but honestly that hasn’t happened yet.

Oct 11th, 2012, 6:03:55 AM	#132
Hugendugen akwardly australian Moderator Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 407 no ibo. Mentor	First of all Pocket, you mention that 'even 20% sand evasion is unacceptable, because "things get out of player's hands."' That may be true in OU, but in Ubers we examined a case by case basis and concluded that for example Sub-SD Sand Veil Garchomp is a perfectly acceptable strategy. My point follows that just because something is luck-based, it's not necessarily grounds for a ban. When you consider how many random variables we're already faced with - games decided on a 30% scald burn or a crucial miss; even damage rolls and crit chances that happen practically every turn - how are we to say that suddenly the 30% chance of an OHKO move makes the game uncompetitive? This seems like an utterly arbitrary reason for a ban, based on a preconceived notion of what's "right" for the metagame. Principally, I'm of the opinion that we should only ban what proves to be broken or significantly skews the metagame in an undesirable direction. Now I can’t tell you what the suspect tests will show us, but from what I've been able to gather so far, allowing OHKO moves does neither of these things. While they are viable choices on a couple of mons (Sheer Cold Rest Talk Ogre/Fissure Sub Gliscor/Fissure Sub Spin Excadrill) and even allow certain mons to find a previously unheard of niche in the tier (Sheer Cold Hydration Lapras/Sheer Cold Roost Aricuno), all of these are manageable in their own way. Kyogre can be forced out by super effective moves or powerful stabs. It can also be forced to sleep for example by protect/sub stalling with toxic or toxic spike support. Fissure Gliscor still faces the same issues with flying types that it did previously, particularly Skarmory and Xatu as well as Bronzong and Air Balloon steel types. It does become more dangerous to switch into, but it’s also significantly worse against Dialga, Forretress, Excadrill and Terrakion amongst others. Fissure Excadrill certainly is more difficult to spinblock as it can just keeping hitting even a bulky ghost with Fissure until luck plays on its side. But as it will tend to use Mold Breaker to hit Gira-o, it’s still outsped and killed by large parts of the metagame. Besides, easier spinning may very well be a healthy development for our oh so hazard-centric tier. Articuno has a crippling x4 Stealth Rocks weakness and will struggle to take hits from the many heavy hitters. Mind Reader isn’t very reliable either as the opponent can simply switch into something that will outspeed and kill. With Hydration Lapras can be a bitch to take out, especially if your team is quite dependent on residual damage, but it will still hate switching in and out of rocks/spikes. It’s also quite slow so may struggle to rest off damage before taking a hit from one of its several common weaknesses. Overall, these are all viable and competitive Pokémon, but still definitely not broken and definitely not ban-worthy. I’m looking forward to testing OHKO moves more thoroughly and excited to see what other sets people come up with. Perhaps someone may end up stumbling upon a truly broken set, but honestly that hasn’t happened yet. __________________ Hugen: Larger then huge but smaller then hunormous. \| Dugen: An ugly skank that thinks she's attractive. Last edited by Hugendugen; Oct 11th, 2012 at 7:08:19 AM.