Mafia From the Depths - GAME OVER, INSANE WIN

shinyskarmory said:

I'm sorry that I mistook you for a great player. I'll make sure not to do it again.

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ZING holy shit

The fact remains that a seeming lack of activity is a good way to stay under the radar as a mafia member in both regular and NOC games. Posting a lot attracts attention that could lead to a lynch, which is why mafia members tend to remain quieter in my experience IRL (that's where my limited mafia experience comes from- three or four games on smogon and sitting around a table playing mafia at parties). Calling the argument stupid doesn't change that.

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I was referring more to your use of direct statistics to attempt to argue that I'm scum due to inactivity. The posts I have made have attempted to promote discussion and have displayed my opinions on various users. Despite the time constraints I have I've attempted to make my posts somewhat valuable (not saying you haven't).

Honestly, to me you and Jalmont both fit the bill of mafia- however, I hesitate to target you because you're both experienced players who could contribute a lot to the village if you were active, and if your card came up village everyone would be waving the pitchforks at my figurative door next. I know some argument about "if you're village you shouldn't be afraid of being lynched", but isn't everyone, village or mafia, afraid of being lynched?

I prefer to take things slowly and make sure I don't fuck it up-I dwell on mistakes much longer then I celebrate victories. If that gets me lynched, it's your loss.

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Don't hesitate to target me, first of all. The more fights that go on, the more information we have. You're extrapolating from my attack ("your attack on me was odd") to a bunch of other things ("I shouldn't be persecuted for not wanting to be lynched" "I take things slow, sorry") which I haven't accused you of. You're still acting pretty defensive.

However, I STILL won't vote you now, because Spiffy is a much better vote. I am going to extrapolate from my own experience as mafia in the most recent NOC, hosted by Walrein iirc. In that game, I spent the entirety of my Day 1 posts explaining to various users how to play and how to make arguments, what to look for, etc. Essentially I avoided forming public opinions on pretty much every user while finding a way to be "active" in the thread without offending anyone ever. Spiffy has done exactly this.

I was going to write up a much longer post and argument, but I don't have time to summarize all of Day 1 tonight so I will finish and post that tomorrow. Until then, vote Spiffy.

i

really

don't feel like posting right now, I'm in a lazy-ass monday mood. That being said, I completely agree with everything aska just said about Spiffy. I was already gonna say something about Spiffy's playstyle being off from what it usually is, and then aska perfectly summarized what's been nagging at me.

Vote Spiffy and I'm once again putting the sentry vote as Sentry Walrein as a placeholder, though if I had to pick a sentry right this second it would either be Empoof, aska, or zorbees.

Shining Latios said:

I know people think Jalmont is a troll, but remember when he said he wanted to kill DLE tonight? As we can see now, it ended up happening and DLE is dead. Troll or not, I find it suspicious. This obviously could be the mafia framing him, though as well. I'm just saying, Jalmont could be a double secret dumbass gambit that is scum thinking he could get away with announcing mafia kills in the thread and then end up doing. And then when asked about it, claim it was a coincidence/mafia framing. I don't plan on lynching him yet, but just wanted to get that out there.

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I hope this clears up any confusion you may have!

Eagle4 said:

Well, I guess I'll question your points then.

1. You're right. It is vague and should have more detail, so I'm sorry if that bothers you. I don't really know how to add more detail really; give examples to back up my opinions? (There's no point now, unless you really want me to?) I disagree with you about "post that" and "heavily involved in current affairs" doesn't say a lot about a person. Of course it does; Walrein is an experienced mafia player and so he wouldn't sentry himself if he was mafia. Of course, he could be double-bluffing, but that seems unlikely. I'd associate somebody who posts a lot as being a townie. Of course, that's just my opinion, what do I know.

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Well, posting a lot can be seen as a pro-town thing to do, but then again posting a lot without saying much isn't pro town. I'll leave most of this for the next paragraph, but I will say that it's much easier to put pressure on inactive players as there's more negative things to say about them. Thus, I feel the mafia is def. attempts to go after players who may not defend themselves as well, or at a higher risk of being (mis)lynched.

3. (Lol you swapped 2 and 3) Lack analysis.. doesn't that go under the same category as vague? Seems like you're just making more points for the sake of it. Anyway, here I disagree with you. Saying that somebody is very quiet or isn't contributing is definitely not a weak argument. Others have used it in the thread, and it prompts the user to actually contribute more often (Which is the reason for why I voted for Infinity.Cypher, and the reason why I voted for Metal Sonic). It's basically to pressure them into voting, and having a say. About me echoing Spiffy's point of you not contributing, have you noticed that all the shady people I mentioned all weren't contributing? You just fell under that category.

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You start off with a really weak counterargument, which I'm not even sure is a scumtell, so I will let others make that call. Anyways, the difference between lacking analysis and vagueness is that no analysis is stating facts or commonly held beliefs while being vauge involves saying things that are opinions in a manner that doesn't really take a position either way. While it's true that poor posting is something that can be seen as a scum tell, I would definitely say that it's something that the mafia will use as a strategy to go after lesser active people and try and get them lynched. Why? AFK people are easier to lynch that a person who is active and willing to fight to stay alive.

2. I had already said it hadn't been established. But yes, you have a point here, it was needless to say that no lynching was and still is a terrible idea. I don't get what you mean by not making any real opinions.. my post was full of them to be honest.

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What I mean by "real opinions" is stuff from you that is actually your thoughts. SAying "no lynching is bad" may really be what you think, but it's also what everyone else thinks, and thus it's not truly your opinion as, let's face it, determining whether or not to no lynch is not a very controversial subject. Real opinions are what you think about people's posts, "I found this to be scummy," or "so and so's play is confusing me because they are doing such and such a lot." I think you get the jist; your posts (especially the shady list) consisted of stuff that weren't even real opinions actually (ie hasn't posted a lot).

Really though; you're lynching me for one post (Which Walrein, I think, said that the post you're targeting was townie)? There are many others here who have made terrible posts consecutively which you haven't batted an eyelid at (shining latios and metal sonic the main culprits here)

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Repeating the same thing over and over is unhelpful, moreso than not mentioning it at all. There's no need for me to point out the MS and SL have been making bad posts when everyone else in this game has already done so. I think this post and a lack of others is telling at this moment (although I do think this was quite an interesting response, but not enough [atm] to convince me otherwise)

i dislike how people are sort of dismissing eagle as a viable lynch target and i would hope others would start voicing opinions on him, namely spiffy, who is doing a good job of avoiding talking about him! (still think he's mafia btw)

yeah i'm tired as shit maybe more tomorrow lol

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Sorry for not having posted during this cycle yet - this, too, is just a small update from school, stating that I'm still in the game. I will type up a longer post and vote when I get home.

Wow, lots has happened since the Lynch... I've read the posts after the lynch and to be honest I was very surprised when the SL lynch suddenly switching to Cypher all of a sudden. This may be controversial, but I enjoy seeing Cypher's Hanako avatar more than SL's, and his/her last post was very very town-sounding(too late to change, though) Poor Cypher :( Was this idea influenced by my post? Consequently the Spiffy one at this moment too?

askaninjask said:

I still think SL is a stupid lynch. What had he posted now that you think he wouldn't have posted as a villager? If he were mafia, he'd have a team telling him not to post stupid shit.

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^, Now that askaninjask has said it I think this makes a whole lot of sense. Put the SL lynch on hold this day I guess, and lets analyse the next top two targets for the day: Eagle and Spiffy


I find that Spiffy is a Mafia member. He is responding badly to pressure, and also doesn't post any real analysis for himself; only pressing others to post. They have posted

Now, its your turn.

Vote Spiffy

I've got my eyes on you.

I still find Shining Latios suspicious for attempting to lead a seemingly unavoidable lynch away from him, with little to no explanation as to why. For some reason, people then shifted their view towards infinity.cypher, and Shining Latios avoided getting lynched. Then, on this day, Shining Latios so far made one post, which does hardly anything, ending with that ''he isn't planning on lynching Jalmont yet'' - then, my question is: who do you plan on lynching, Shining Latios?

My vote so far remains on Shining Latios, so Lynch Shining Latios

Also, so far, the sentry vote seems to be leaning towards Walrein, while I find zorbees and askaninjask the better posters for this cycle, so far. I had my doubts on zorbees and askaninjask on day 1, though, so I will wait with my sentry vote until later in the day, also because not everyone has posted yet. Until then, placeholder: Sentry More Cowbell

You've only posted twice yourself, More Cowbell. I am not always on this thread, I have other things to do as well. As to answer your question, I'm leaning towards shinyskarmory at the moment. He claims everyone should be afraid of being lynched, but this isn't true. You shouldn't be afraid of being lynched as town because you still win if they win. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't avoid it. So, townies shouldn't necessarily welcome death but they should prioritize finding scum over staying alive. Which ties in to him not wanting to vote others because of experience

Lynch shinyskarmory
Sentry zorbees

I'd like to see something from TPM and Lightwolf relatively soon, they haven't posted yet on Day 2, and weren't that active on Day 1 either. I will address the following towards both of them:

What is your opinion on these users?: ShinySkarmory, Spiffy, Walrein, Empoof, zorbees, TPM/Lightwolf (whichever isn't you)

If you will zorbees. I have already explained my activity issues, I'm not active when the majority of the players are, while I'm online there is generally no one else there. If you wanted to see similar activity from me I'd end up just like Metal Sonic, with penta posts all over the place. And when I'm online when majority start posting I'm generally busy with PFS stuff or too sleepy to think about this.

Also I'm fairly lazy, like today when I first opened the thread and till I started writing this only 3 freaking posts happened, I felt like I had all the time of the world to reply. And honestly I did so I played around, did other stuff(read: ate).

Thankfully you did ask me about one of the two people I did want to talk about, so let me get started

Walrein: Okay I guess it's good as any time to explain how I play this game, I do not analyse people's behavior, I do not look at the bigger picture, I do not question their opinions. What I look for are things that seem off for a villager to do, the smallest slips, sure it's only in my opinion if these are off or not but most scum reads are based on that. So for Walrein all I have is, his hammer seemed off. I'd have been fine with it, the guy wouldn't have been saved at that point, but he later claims he didn't realise he had hammered? Sure I honestly didn't realise either when I was read the day ending, but I myself would have checked at least if it was the hammer vote before voting. He also instantly reacted like he was being questioned on it, like he felt guilty about it.

Empoof: Got nothing here, he hasn't even posted since the day started, unless I'm blind... (which I didn't either, so I honestly don't find that suspicious for another day or two)

Spiffy: Some claim that he is playing differently, but honestly that can just be attributed to, well, changing his style, thinking differently, or just the game having no power roles may change how he thinks. Don't see anything off with what he is doing.

TPM: Again, didn't post yet and got nothing, that is it. Sure he may post little, but that may be for hundreds of activity issues, a mafia can pretend to be one, but that's a decision based on playstyle, which honestly I have no idea about.

zorbees: Getting bored of doing this, but got nothing here either. Sure you didn't call out some people (Empoof) who also has yet to post on Day 2, but he was active Day 1 so he doesn't fit the group you called out and honestly I had not noticed it either till I was checking his posts over if anything interesting came up.

Shinyskarmory: Now we are talking. Really I have already said this once, though that post was really focused on SL and it was a mere mention, but my problem with him goes way back. It's still that No Lynch vote... Sure people attacked him a lot for it, but that's not the biggest thing. The way he voted No Lynch seemed the most interesting to me, as he voted No Lynch from voting nothing at all. It really felt like being pressured into a vote but not wanting to point fingers at anyone at all, like he feared the consequences. Sure I do think I'd rather be alive as a villager, but being afraid to point fingers? Hell no, that in no way helps.

And while you may not have asked, but I did want to say this either way: Vote Shining Latios

Really I talked enough about him already, so I will keep it simple. His constant hypocrisy is not only off but extremely annoying(I feel like ripping my hair out sometimes). In addition he seems to constantly ignore those attacking him in favour of attacking others. In a recent post he explained this with not fearing being lynched, but I myself think in a game where you can't trust anyone but yourself you want to cling onto your life, and every lynch that kills you(well that's only one lynch isn't it....) is a lynch with no chance of hitting a mafia. Okay this is his opinion, I can understand he may believe in this, but his hypocrisy remains, and he didn't take any time in explaining that yet.

So yes sticking to this vote just like yesterday, but I'm willing to explore a shinyskarmory as an option too.

askaninjask]I am going to extrapolate from my own experience as mafia in the most recent NOC said:

Thanks for the extremely contributional obligatory 24 hour posts Cypher and Eagle.
At least randvote for someone!

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I wanted to make it clear to them that one post every 24 hours wouldn't cut it. I would have voted for one of them but my vote was already on TPM who hadn't posted yet.

Spiffy said:

If someone hammers this vote before deadline (or at least before Da Letter El might have a chance to get on) you will be cast under SERIOUS suspicion next day, so DON'T HAMMER. In other news, I anxiously await jalmont's post or sub out.

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I wanted to make sure that Da Letter El was able to post his reads (which I thought would be more helpful...) I had been wanting Dale contribute more the entire day, so I don't really understand why you grouped this post in with the others as evidence against me...

Spiffy said:

shinyskarmory what do you suggest then? Waiting until we're at MYLO of LYLO before we start lynching people? In that case we lose if we mislynch and since we wouldn't have any information on anyone's voting patterns because we no lynched everytime we'd be taking a shot in the dark.

Unvote LightWolf
Vote shinyskarmory

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All I did here was point out his faulty logic and vote for him because of it, so I don't know what your problem is with this post either.

My main goal on Day 1 is to force people into sharing their opinions and make sure no inactives slip under the radar (seriously go check any other NOC game I've played in) which was why I wanted a wagon on Jalmont so he would actually contribute. Just because YOU played a game as mafia where YOU used a strategy that I seem to be emulating doesn't mean that I would act the same way as mafia. That's exactly like me saying "Askaninjask is acting like billymills did in a previous game where billy was village, so aska MUST be village!" That logic is flawed because I'm comparing you to someone else, and obviously you both have different playstyles. I have no problem with you accusing me of being noncontributional (which I don't think is true but w/e) but don't justify your read with a strategy YOU used before.

zorbees said:

@spiffy: only a couple posts fell into the irrelevant category, but those were: previous NOC games, no-lynch, and troll-posts.

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Previous NOC games are an excellent way to analyze what players have done in the past. For instance, you can compare how someone is playing in this game to how they have played as mafia or village in another game and see if there are any similarities. I used past games as evidence to prove a point to the people that thought that trollposting and being inactive was no indicator of alignment, which is not always the case.
I acknowleged in a later post that the no lynch discussion was getting us nowhere, I admit I made a mistake in focusing on that too much.
I only made one troll post which was in response to Jalmont's troll post because I was getting frustrated with him and frankly everyone else for ignoring his intentional lack of contribution.

zorbees]You have barely posted any reads on players despite having plenty of time to do so. Right now said:

Fair enough Empoof, however I will only post who I think is most scummy because if everyone reveals the same person as a surefire village read, that will give the mafia an easy target.

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Everytime I feel someone suspicious I say it. I like keeping any town reads I have to myself, unless of course that person it being lynched. There's no need for villagers to share their strong town reads; It just gives the mafia a good target for a nightkill. This is why whenever I question someone I only ask them their thoughts about players who I think could be mafia or just simply ask them who they think could be mafia.

Spiffy said:

I have to reread the thread and pay more attention to the newer players and see how I feel about them.

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I always pay more attention to players that have played before because I already know how they act and I find it easier to get reads on them because of that. For some reason I always get a default "noob town" read on players that I'm not familiar with (like More Cowbell, TPM, and Metal Sonic), so I want to reread the thread before I share my thoughts about them.

Spiffy said:

Now that LightWolf has explained his reasoning and taking into account his previous reputation for being overly cautious all the time, I can see him having this opinion and still being aligned with the village. However I still don't think that his course of action is the best because of what zorbees said (We need to lynch to see voting patterns).

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I did give my read on LightWolf, and it hasn't changed. I guess you missed that? That reminds me: Sentry LightWolf. Mafia is not going to kill Walrein (who I think is mafia anyway) when there are bigger names still around.

Basically, if you don't hear anything from me about a certain user, I think they're town.

zorbees]I find it odd that said:

I completely agree with everything aska just said about Spiffy. I was already gonna say something about Spiffy's playstyle being off from what it usually is, and then aska perfectly summarized what's been nagging at me.

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How exactly is my playstyle different from how it usually is? Aska never addresses anything about my previous playing style so I don't really know how his post summarizes your thoughts.

Metal Sonic said:

I find that Spiffy is a Mafia member. He is responding badly to pressure, and also doesn't post any real analysis for himself; only pressing others to post. They have posted

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I haven't had any pressure until today, and I have never responded to it until now. So I don't know what responses to pressure you're referring to. I have addressed your second point in this post already. And I don't think you completed your thought, so I can't really respond to that last sentence. x_x

Since everyone claims I don't do my part regarding posting reads, my top scum reads are:
zorbees - I already explained why I think he is mafia in a recent post. This read is supported by his weird logic against me in the post that I quoted already.
Walrein - I also explained my reasoning for this read earlier this day.

I need to reread the thread to establish more concrete reads on the newer players.

Spiffy, what is the difference between the following to para-phrasings?

"In past NOC games, scum players have been inactive"
"In past NOC games, scum players have played like this"

The first one you support, but the second one doesn't fly with you, because you aren't the same player as aska. So why bring up the first point if none of the same players are in the same situation?

Additionally, I am not buying the "I only post reads on people I think are bad". It gives you (and the mafia) an excuse to cut down the amount of reads you post, which is anti-village, because more reads = more information = more chance of finding scum. I'm not buying the "it gives the mafia a good target to kill" because that is a minor issue, and the mafia is most likely going to kill more experienced players anyways.

Another thing I'm not buying is the "I already gave my reads". Reads can change as people post more, so you shouldn't stop posting reads when you feel satisfied. I get that, this example, Lightwolf, hasn't posted all that much recently, but I am getting this attitude from you based on the lack of reads you have been posting. You try to pander to everyone in your most recent post by posting reads, but all you post is essentially "I said this before"; aka no new information.

All in all, I find your logic extremely shitty, so I am going to Unlynch ShinySkarmory and Lynch Spiffy

Sorry for not posting yet today. I have been watching the thread, but really haven't felt like I've had anything to add to the discussion. I don't have any overly strong reads on anybody, so I don't feel the need to pressure anyone, and anything I could in response to the current discussion would just be agreement. (and its been pretty well established that just posting to bandwagon is suspicious so...) Since zorbees has asked my input though I will give him my reads:
ShinySkarmory: Okay so, I talked about this guy a bit yesterday, about how I have a scum read on him. That hasn't changed. In fact, the more I look at his posts the more scum he seems to me. A lot of his finger pointing is backed up with an explanation along the lines of "they are doing this which is a mafia thing to do cause I'm not doing." Basically he's calling people out on strategies that are dissimilar to his; it seems like while trying to convince people of other's scumminess, he is really defending his own innocence. And there is nothing wrong with defending one's innocence, but doing it so subtly just screams mafia.
Spiffy: For reasons some of stated, for the longest time I felt spiffy was scummy. He was all about pressuring other players; that was literally almost the entirety of the content of his posts. It just seemed like as opposed to saying anything that might remotely incriminate him (but promote actual discussion as opposed to players just defending themselves) he just wanted to draw attention away from himself. However his most recent post has begun to convince me otherwise, so I'm going to hold out on a full mafia-read on him for the time being.
Walrein: Okay, this is a tough one. I feel that Walrein is mafia, not so much because what he has said, but sort of because the course the game has taken. He was one of the sole players who argued against the DLE sentry. DLE still turned up dead. This may be me grasping at straws, but it seems like Walrein would have wanted DLE dead by Day 2 no matter what, and would have preferred not wasting the sentry break Night 1. Additionally, his attitude, if he is town, would make him a prime target for the mafia (more so than DLE in my opinion as he contributed very little Day 1), yet he hasn't really been lobbying for a sentry vote (as I think he should if he is town). Instead he just seems to want to draw the sentry off of other players. His posts haven't been scummy, but I can't help but feel the situation incriminates him.
Empoof: Urgh this may sound suspicious but I've wanted to avoid talking about Empoof. He seems village to me, but I can't put my finger on why, and I don't want to just sound like I'm buddying. I really wish I could find out something to say. Maybe it's just because, despite being involved in discussion, he comes across as a genuinely nice guy and I immediately associate with not-mafia.
zorbees: Funny you ask me your opinion of yourself. I think you are scum. Your attitude in your posts is definitely a large part of that, but not the reason I'm outright saying it. The past lynch you switched votes a number of times (as many players did), but you never voted for Walrein, who was a popular vote target. As he is one of my top scum reads, I can't help but notice that association and get a scum read on you too. Also, my other top scum read is Shining Latios, and you surprisingly didn't ask my opinion on him despite him being one of the most controversial players, and I only ever saw you vote SL when he was being bandwagoned. Now, I don't think SL and Walrein are both mafia, but I have a strong feeling either one could be. I also think you have surprisingly avoided a lot of pressure, despite many people calling you out as scum. I'm curious to see how you'd react to that, lynch zorbees
TPM: This guy is defs town
Lightwolf: Honestly aside from when he tried advocating no lynch (which i already dismissed in an earlier post) he hasn't done anything that seems remotely scummy to me. He is one of my top town reads, and he is a big name, so sentry lightwolf

Jalmont said:

Well, posting a lot can be seen as a pro-town thing to do, but then again posting a lot without saying much isn't pro town. I'll leave most of this for the next paragraph, but I will say that it's much easier to put pressure on inactive players as there's more negative things to say about them. Thus, I feel the mafia is def. attempts to go after players who may not defend themselves as well, or at a higher risk of being (mis)lynched.



You start off with a really weak counterargument, which I'm not even sure is a scumtell, so I will let others make that call. Anyways, the difference between lacking analysis and vagueness is that no analysis is stating facts or commonly held beliefs while being vauge involves saying things that are opinions in a manner that doesn't really take a position either way. While it's true that poor posting is something that can be seen as a scum tell, I would definitely say that it's something that the mafia will use as a strategy to go after lesser active people and try and get them lynched. Why? AFK people are easier to lynch that a person who is active and willing to fight to stay alive.



What I mean by "real opinions" is stuff from you that is actually your thoughts. SAying "no lynching is bad" may really be what you think, but it's also what everyone else thinks, and thus it's not truly your opinion as, let's face it, determining whether or not to no lynch is not a very controversial subject. Real opinions are what you think about people's posts, "I found this to be scummy," or "so and so's play is confusing me because they are doing such and such a lot." I think you get the jist; your posts (especially the shady list) consisted of stuff that weren't even real opinions actually (ie hasn't posted a lot).



Repeating the same thing over and over is unhelpful, moreso than not mentioning it at all. There's no need for me to point out the MS and SL have been making bad posts when everyone else in this game has already done so. I think this post and a lack of others is telling at this moment (although I do think this was quite an interesting response, but not enough [atm] to convince me otherwise)

i dislike how people are sort of dismissing eagle as a viable lynch target and i would hope others would start voicing opinions on him, namely spiffy, who is doing a good job of avoiding talking about him! (still think he's mafia btw)

yeah i'm tired as shit maybe more tomorrow lol

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Okeydoke, here we go again. First off, my post where I said that "lacking analysis and being vague is basically the same thing", that wasn't a counter argument, but rather something I noticed and pointed out. If something lacks analysis, isn't it vague? That's the way I see it, but that really doesn't matter anyways; just something I was pointing out. Now, you make an interesting point saying that the mafia would use people posting badly or not at all as an excuse. Following your logic, a lot of people here are mafia, since a lot of people here vote for somebody on the basis that they post badly. Thanks for clarifying on what you meant by real opinions. From what I understand, you're basically saying that if I say something which most people agree with, that means it is not a "real" opinion? I'm unsure whether that's correct to be honest, since you can still have a real opinion regardless of the thoughts from others. Opinions do not have to be about a specific post or a specific set of posts; it can also be about the activity of the user.

Yes, I agreed with you that repeating the same stuff over and over is unhelpful, no need to say that again. One thing which has been kinda bugging me is why you've brought this up now and not on day 1.. care to explain? Also, really, saying that one post I made which has no true information yet is still a long post isn't really a good argument for thinking that I'm mafia. Of course, I'm biased here, but I'm pretty sure people agree with me on this one?

Jalmont, what do you think of the following players:

askaninjask, TPM, Metal Sonic, shinyskarmory, Shining Latios and Walrein?

Something to note is that both Empoof and TPM haven't posted since DLE's death, which could be down to IRL happenings idunno. Empoof has basically been confirmed townie, although TPM less so (although his/her posts haven't been scummy iirc).

Oh woops TPM you posted whilst I was posting.
So only Empoof hasn't posted since the start of day 2

ughhhhh can we please lynch eagle4?

side note: personally find that asking x to talk about y z and u can be a bit of a scum tell in that it's an easy way for the mafia to direct attention away from players that they don't want to talk about.

I am surprised that lw still wants to lynch SL, I really cant see him being mafia at all, just really really really misguided town

Jalmont said:

ughhhhh can we please lynch eagle4?

side note: personally find that asking x to talk about y z and u can be a bit of a scum tell in that it's an easy way for the mafia to direct attention away from players that they don't want to talk about.

I am surprised that lw still wants to lynch SL, I really cant see him being mafia at all, just really really really misguided town

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Thank you for your informative and detailed response.
I wanted you to actually say about those people because you've directed all your attention at me whilst ignoring other people who actually could be mafia.

Responses in bold

TPM said:

Sorry for not posting yet today. I have been watching the thread, but really haven't felt like I've had anything to add to the discussion. I don't have any overly strong reads on anybody, so I don't feel the need to pressure anyone, and anything I could in response to the current discussion would just be agreement. (and its been pretty well established that just posting to bandwagon is suspicious so...) Since zorbees has asked my input though I will give him my reads:

ShinySkarmory: Okay so, I talked about this guy a bit yesterday, about how I have a scum read on him. That hasn't changed. In fact, the more I look at his posts the more scum he seems to me. A lot of his finger pointing is backed up with an explanation along the lines of "they are doing this which is a mafia thing to do cause I'm not doing." Basically he's calling people out on strategies that are dissimilar to his; it seems like while trying to convince people of other's scumminess, he is really defending his own innocence. And there is nothing wrong with defending one's innocence, but doing it so subtly just screams mafia.

Spiffy: For reasons some of stated, for the longest time I felt spiffy was scummy. He was all about pressuring other players; that was literally almost the entirety of the content of his posts. It just seemed like as opposed to saying anything that might remotely incriminate him (but promote actual discussion as opposed to players just defending themselves) he just wanted to draw attention away from himself. However his most recent post has begun to convince me otherwise, so I'm going to hold out on a full mafia-read on him for the time being.

Can you elaborate on this? I don't see how his most recent post changes anything. He had a few votes on him, and I had been arguing against him prior to voting him. My vote made it 4 against him, when the majority needed is only 7. To not defend himself would be idiotic. I don't see it as either town or scum that he defended himself, because anyone would do it.

Walrein: Okay, this is a tough one. I feel that Walrein is mafia, not so much because what he has said, but sort of because the course the game has taken. He was one of the sole players who argued against the DLE sentry. DLE still turned up dead. This may be me grasping at straws, but it seems like Walrein would have wanted DLE dead by Day 2 no matter what, and would have preferred not wasting the sentry break Night 1. Additionally, his attitude, if he is town, would make him a prime target for the mafia (more so than DLE in my opinion as he contributed very little Day 1), yet he hasn't really been lobbying for a sentry vote (as I think he should if he is town). Instead he just seems to want to draw the sentry off of other players. His posts haven't been scummy, but I can't help but feel the situation incriminates him.

I think you are reading way too much into that early sentry vote. Walrein has already explained his logic on it, several times I believe, and I don't see anything too outlandish (other than the fact that if everyone votes themselves, no one gets the sentry). It was very early in the game so no one really knew who was clean. I also find it odd that you say he "wants the sentry off of other players" but you also say he hasn't been lobbying for it, despite the fact that he voted for himself for sentry this cycle.

Empoof: Urgh this may sound suspicious but I've wanted to avoid talking about Empoof. He seems village to me, but I can't put my finger on why, and I don't want to just sound like I'm buddying. I really wish I could find out something to say. Maybe it's just because, despite being involved in discussion, he comes across as a genuinely nice guy and I immediately associate with not-mafia.

I'm starting to suspect Empoof for one of the same reasons I suspected Spiffy, in that no one is challenging his cleanliness. Strikes me as odd, because I don't recall him being particularly clean. I will look at his posts in a bit, but just a minor note...

zorbees: Funny you ask me your opinion of yourself. I think you are scum. Your attitude in your posts is definitely a large part of that, but not the reason I'm outright saying it. The past lynch you switched votes a number of times (as many players did), but you never voted for Walrein, who was a popular vote target. As he is one of my top scum reads, I can't help but notice that association and get a scum read on you too. Also, my other top scum read is Shining Latios, and you surprisingly didn't ask my opinion on him despite him being one of the most controversial players, and I only ever saw you vote SL when he was being bandwagoned. Now, I don't think SL and Walrein are both mafia, but I have a strong feeling either one could be. I also think you have surprisingly avoided a lot of pressure, despite many people calling you out as scum. I'm curious to see how you'd react to that, lynch zorbees

I never voted for Walrein because I haven't seen anything to cause me to. The early sentry vote raised minor suspicions but nothing serious. I view him as close to town as almost anyone. In regards to Shining Latios, I was the first person to vote for him, bar a couple early retracted votes. I don't see how you can accuse me of bandwagoning when I was the one who brought him up in the first place.

TPM: This guy is defs town

Lightwolf: Honestly aside from when he tried advocating no lynch (which i already dismissed in an earlier post) he hasn't done anything that seems remotely scummy to me. He is one of my top town reads, and he is a big name, so sentry lightwolf

Click to expand...

Mind pointing out where I was being a hypocrite other than the one you mentioned before, LightWolf? If you want to ask me to explain anything, I'm right here. You also seemed to have a lack of scum hunting in your reads, so I'm going to ask you who are your top 3 scum reads?

@Jalmont, regarding asking x about y and z: I can see why you see that; I just find it easier to get people to answer a specific question rather than saying "post reads" and leaving it up to them. Additionally, when I do it, I usually post at least 5 users to assess, so it is a significant part of the playerbase.

Empoof is playing a lot like Spiffy, imo, but a bit better. A lot of questioning others and posting minimal thoughts, posting irrelevant stuff that seems like a contribution, etc. I think he should definitely be a suspect, but I'd rather focus on spiffy for now, considering how bad I found his previous post.

Firstly, TPM if it changes anything, I'm hardly a big name when it comes to NOC mafia, I'm horribly inexperienced, what I knew I haven't used more than a year ago(and I liked the role heavy epicmafia setups). I'm fine with being sentried, but wanted to make this clear.

As for you SL. I may have exaggerated. The only other post that has hypocrisy is your More Cowbell one, where among others you mention "Sure, he's posting, but he's not putting opinions down. He's pressing other people and commenting on their general play but not making cases." This p much worked for most of what you did before that. I was wrong on the scale of your hypocrisy but I already said I'm not looking at the patterns, just single off things, and the first case of hypocrisy doesn't change.

@Spiffy: I feel like in the past you've been more willing to offend people to express your opinion. As aska said, you're being extremely nonconfrontational this game

@TPM: DLE is always like that on the first day. He usually attempts to fly under-the-radar and collect reads while dodging scumkills, then come out a few days later with all his info and carry the village to victory. I'd say the scum was having none of it this game.

As for why they didn't kill me, it's because I suck and I have a tendency to get lynched anyways because my playstyle is apparently just THAT scummy.

also dle's my bro why would i want to kill him :(

Hey guys here I am! *cheers*

Zorbees, could you list examples of how i'm posting irrelevant stuff? I'm just not sure what you mean. I admit i do have some trolly posts in here ("gg no re" type of posts, etc.) but I've been trying to have meaning in most my posts.

I'm not sure how I feel about a walrein sentry, going off of the D1 lynch hammering. I'll have to look over his posts and peoples reasoning for it, i honestly haven't paid walrein much attention since the aska RVS lynch votes.

I was going to put my FoS on zorbees today, for the turning point on the cypher lynch shying away from the SL lynch, but some of the other things I was mulling over with it are inconsistent. I'm going to look through all of his posts (which i'm not looking forward too, you have a high post count) to see if my old reasoning will rekindle.

I'm just trying to put out some of my thoughts. Imma look over the thread, lots to read for me still zz