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Mafia From the Depths - GAME OVER, INSANE WIN
- Thread starter Blue_Tornado
- Start date
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4582287&postcount=76
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4582233&postcount=63
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4581227&postcount=27
Just a couple of examples. Note that when I say "irrelevant posts", I don't mean to say that having them indicates being scum. Jalmont has a few of these, but I believe him to be village. Its just the way you (and to a stronger extent, spiffy) use the combination of irrelevant posts and lack of original opinions to seem active and contributing while not actually helping all that much. I think you have gotten a bit better with it as the game went on, and don't advocate lynching you, at least not yet, I just think it is something worth monitoring. But while we're at it, Empoof, care to vote today?
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4582233&postcount=63
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4581227&postcount=27
Just a couple of examples. Note that when I say "irrelevant posts", I don't mean to say that having them indicates being scum. Jalmont has a few of these, but I believe him to be village. Its just the way you (and to a stronger extent, spiffy) use the combination of irrelevant posts and lack of original opinions to seem active and contributing while not actually helping all that much. I think you have gotten a bit better with it as the game went on, and don't advocate lynching you, at least not yet, I just think it is something worth monitoring. But while we're at it, Empoof, care to vote today?
Prior to that post I was starting to see him as scummy just because, as many people noted, he wasn't posting anything too relevant. His last post (at that point) actually contained meaningful content, and so I was less sure about his previous posts lacking because he was scum, thinking they might just have been him legitimately trying to be an active, useful villager. Like I said though it didn't fully convince me he is scum, so I am still suspicious of him. I'm not ready to bump up the votes on him and almost lock in a majority on him yet though.zorbees said:
So I'm going to address the latter thing first. I meant he hasn't really been actively trying to get people to sentry him, but by posting a sentry vote for himself he is effectively detracting attention from other sentry targets. Sorry if that wasn't clear. And maybe I am looking into the first sentry vote too much, but I feel like that vote, and the DLE kill, are the two most concrete things to look into right now. In theory everybody should be trying to play this game the same way; not trying to attract too much negative attention to themselves. It is in nobody's best interest to get themselves lynched, and when you have no way of confirming whether a lynch is "good" or not trying not to seem like a baddie is important, even if you aren't one. That is why I think the whole "you shouldn't be afraid of getting lynched if you're town" thing is BS. because of this sort of philosophy I have, I prefer to look at the overall flow of the game as opposed to how individual players act. I consider how every player interacts with each other more important. As such I feel like I have great difficulty posting reads, and am more comfortable with trying to look at trends and such.zorbees said:
zorbees said:
The last two posts were part of a bigger whole. It was usually a fast reply to DLE's quick comments. Regardless, I've been trying to step it up since then. Unfortunately, this post probably won't be. I'm rushed.
Okay I'm honestly having a hard time with this spiffy thing. I've voiced before how I thought he was skating by D1, and latched onto things like the No Lynch and used his mafia experience to talk about things that are generally considered town. The exclamation points in his posts have an air of propaganda about them that i can't really describe. But on the other hand, I've seen him try to produce discussion. He's prodded people for opinions and if anything helped me make connections with people.
You guys have the longest fucking posts i've ever seen. I'm so busy right now, i need to catch a bus in 3 minutes. I'll talk more when i get to my next location :p
I consider zorbees to be playing better on D2 than D1. SL seems so mafia its gross but i can't tell if that's just him. My brain has lumped SS and LW's posts together and i'm aware of it so i need to sort those out before i say anything misleading about them.
Not voting yet, i will tonight though
Honestly I'm glad you're reevaluating your look at me. Looking over the thread, i saw a few people almost nonchalantly write me off as village, such as Eagle calling me "confirmed town". I mean, i know i am but it should take more to convince than my inflection. There should be concrete evidence that is sightable. My posts at the end of D1 are honestly trash, so I was appalled that noone had called me out on them. However, my big stride was in the middle of D1 right before the 2 MS/SL bandwagons erupted. I was trying hard to voice my opinion more and avoid tunnel visioning. I'll remember to do this more in future posts.TPM said:
Okay I'm honestly having a hard time with this spiffy thing. I've voiced before how I thought he was skating by D1, and latched onto things like the No Lynch and used his mafia experience to talk about things that are generally considered town. The exclamation points in his posts have an air of propaganda about them that i can't really describe. But on the other hand, I've seen him try to produce discussion. He's prodded people for opinions and if anything helped me make connections with people.
You guys have the longest fucking posts i've ever seen. I'm so busy right now, i need to catch a bus in 3 minutes. I'll talk more when i get to my next location :p
I consider zorbees to be playing better on D2 than D1. SL seems so mafia its gross but i can't tell if that's just him. My brain has lumped SS and LW's posts together and i'm aware of it so i need to sort those out before i say anything misleading about them.
Not voting yet, i will tonight though
Why not discuss Eagle4 as well? Certainly jalmont's argument deserves some talking. It is really odd, honestly, that nobody has been willing to bring up Eagle4. I think it's best to be cautious with new users instead of instalynching all of them for being new (hence why I'm not lynching More Cowbell, who otherwise is acting the scummiest of everyone, because I think he may be trying to help but doesn't know how to be useful). Eagle4's posts are certainly coherent, but I'm not sure how much of what he says can be attributed to his newness and how much may be scumtell. This is what makes it hard for me to get a clean read on him. I'm leaning scum.
I think the game would benefit from more people acknowledging Eagle4's existence...
I think the game would benefit from more people acknowledging Eagle4's existence...
The difference is that one has been a confirmed strategy for multiple mafia (as I evidenced earlier in the thread) and one was a case of a mafia member trying to emulate the strategy of a VILLAGER to blend in. Askaninjask used this strategy to try to imitate village behavior, so obviously a villager also acting like this shouldn't be (and isn't) out out of the ordinary. Just because one player used it as a ploy to mole the village doesn't mean everyone in the future who acts similarly is mafia. To base a lynch on this shaky evidence is extremely counterproductive.
Sorry, but that's how I've always handled town reads during the initial days of an NOC game. The village's ability to "scum search" is not hampered or improved in any way if people don't present their town reads publicly, so there is no reason to give mafia the extra information. I don't care if you think it's an excuse, I find it to be helpful to the town so I'm doing it. At least until we establish a pattern to mafia kills. If they continue to kill experienced players I will feel more comfortable revealing some of my town reads. And mafia killing universal town reads is not a "minor issue". If the people who I read as (and are) town stay alive, it allows me to focus more on people that I don't have as good of a read on.zorbees said:
I find it better and safer to conceal concrete town reads as long as possible.
You say yourself that LightWolf hadn't posted much recently. How can my opinion of him change if he hasn't posted anything that could potentially change it? The only reason I was so adamant about voting Jalmont was because multiple times I saw him view the thread and not post anything new. LightWolf had also mentioned activity issues earlier, so his lack of posts didn't really concern me.zorbees said:
Walrein if something about me had been "nagging at you for awhile" then why did it take you one vote for me (askaninjask) and a voiced suspicion of me (zorbees) to finally bring it up. Why didn't you say anything on Day 1? Were you too busy hammering a vote? ;)
Walrein also explain to me why you hippocritically think I'm not being contributional when you post travesties such as your "analyses" of More Cowbell and Infinity.Cypher which just summarized their posts (there may have been others) as well as pretty much the ENTIRE end half of your Day 1 and so far all of Day 2.
This brings me to another point. As a villager, if I'm not called out on the quality of my posting, I am going to continue posting like that because I have no reason to think I'm not being helpful. I genuinely thought (and still think) my posts were fine and helpful on Day 1, but ALL OF A SUDDEN multiple players find that not to be the case. It took an entire Day/Night phase (and a reset in the votes) for people to "realize" that my posts were suspicious. This is the main reason why I think there is some mafia involvement in my lynch. Primarily Walrein and zorbees. Not as much askaninjask and Metal Sonic because I've liked all of aska's posts thus far and Metal Sonic actually expressed some discontent with my posts on Day 1 (but didn't really elaborate on it).
The only other slight scum read I have at the moment is Eagle4 because of the "whole lot of nothing" he posted as his thoughts earlier on (the post that Jalmont has quoted). Plus his keeping track of who hadn't posted since the beginning of Day 2 seems like filler content and isn't relevant nor helpful.
Also, promoting discussion is really easy and is something any user of any team can do. It helps the village, obviously, to have more discussion, as that is our only weapon in this game, but it's also a stupid move from the mafia to attempt NOT to promote discussion. Yes, Spiffy may have posted some discussion-promoting comments. What he didn't post were controversial opinions, and that is why my vote remains on him right now. He has, up to this point, been unwilling to pick fights. I don't like that.Empoof said:
Is that directed at anyone in particular aska? I am leaning towards eagle4 being scum, I think I have been for a while, but I do get more than a hint of newness in his posts. I do lean scum, but the newness I detect makes it hard for me to be certain about it.
I also think spiffy is a much better target, particularly after his latest post. He also hasn't posted anything in the 9 or so hours since then, which is a bit odd, considering he has been the topic of discussion quite a bit. It obviously could be due to IRL issues, but 9 hours is a pretty decent amount of time. I am starting to be convinced that Shining Latios is noobtown, so I'm reluctant to switch onto that vote. The only other one that has been brought up that I'd switch to, as of right now, is my original vote, ShinySkarmory.
I also think spiffy is a much better target, particularly after his latest post. He also hasn't posted anything in the 9 or so hours since then, which is a bit odd, considering he has been the topic of discussion quite a bit. It obviously could be due to IRL issues, but 9 hours is a pretty decent amount of time. I am starting to be convinced that Shining Latios is noobtown, so I'm reluctant to switch onto that vote. The only other one that has been brought up that I'd switch to, as of right now, is my original vote, ShinySkarmory.
I think people are reading too far into my "analysis" of players. I'm not trying to write a fucking doctoral thesis that takes a full week to finish reading and kills 7 trees in print format. What I like to do is recap what that person has accomplished so far, then give my read with the summary right there for justification. It's basically my list of reads in spread-out form.
That being said, if you want me to write a doctoral thesis on someone, let me know before I get too tired to coherently function and then fall asleep and then go to school and not post until 6 pm tomorrow.
That being said, if you want me to write a doctoral thesis on someone, let me know before I get too tired to coherently function and then fall asleep and then go to school and not post until 6 pm tomorrow.
Askaninjask, I never started fights on Day 1 because I was intent on getting people to talk. I've stated before that prodding inactive users is my main goal on Day 1 of an NOC. And I did call multiple users out on weird posts, bandwagons, no lynch votes, etc. I really don't know to what extent I have to challenge other players to be considered village. I didn't really see many other players start fights other than the Shining Latios and Metal Sonic fiasco, so why is it me you're targeting with that reasoning?
This is actually a distressingly good point. While nobody called you out on Day 1, everyone seems to be happy to jump onto this bandwagon now. This could be due to mafia teammates wanting to look cleaner by joining the lynch on a teammate, but it could be a mafia push as you say, and that option certainly exists.
However, what has also happened concurrently is that several users have posted negative opinions about Spiffy without voting for him. Empoof believed that Spiffy had been posting strangely on Day 1 but did not vote him. jalmont believes that Spiffy is a "solid scum read" or whatever he said but he still has not voted him. I think jalmont is probably town; the switch from troll to active user usually does not occur with mafioso, and is much more common with villagers, but still the point stands.
I really don't know what to think at this point. I suppose I still support the Spiffy lynch, but I think it's time to think about some new options as well.
askaninjask said:
Ok, so now you're not only constantly agreeing with me, but using literally the same words and phrases that I used. That's a bit odd.askaninjask said:
To be fair, I did just get through reading your post, so I suppose a bit of taking a bit of the language is going to happen subconciously. I don't see how "leaning scum" is particularly unique, nor is saying "spiffy is a better target". Newness is probably the only thing that can be directly attributed to you, but this is probably attributed to there not being much of a better word, combined with, as I said, just coming off of reading your post.
I don't think there is really much to read into this though, mafia tends to have its own unique language, so it should make sense that some common words and phrases appear.
I am targeting you for two reasons, the first of which is that you're an intelligent/experienced user. Your posts are indicative of your alliance in ways that newer users' aren't. Secondly, you posted everything you did in ways that made sure not to aggravate anyone. When you did go about making a scum read/vote about or against another user you seemed to have done so in such a manner as not to upset the person you were talking about. I got the sense that you, more than the other users who may also not have gotten into fights, wanted to be active without getting your hands dirty.
Walrein please answer this.Spiffy said:
It doesn't matter if the mannerism was deliberate, what matters is that mafia still happened to be inactive in multiple instances. Some people claimed that inactivity was not something to look into, so I corrected them using evidence from other games.zorbees said:
Well obviously I will re-evaluate reads. I thought that was a given.zorbees said:
Actually you're right, I admit that is an instance where it would be beneficial to reveal town reads. But I take lists of reads from confirmed mafia with a grain of salt because they are tampered with and not real opinions. However I can see where connections can be drawn. But it's not like I refuse to connect myself with any user, I have said when I agree with someone's post and have mentioned people I don't think are mafia in other posts of mine. I still worry about giving the mafia extra information...zorbees said:
Sorry, I think I misunderstood the initial intent of that argument. Once again, I always spoke up when I found something suspicious about another player; I'm not going to create an entire list of reads because of every little thing that someone does different from the norm. And every vote I casted and read I made had some sort of followup to how I felt after that person responded to my vote/question. I always make it a point to respond to anything directed at me.zorbees said:
Starting fights brings too much focus to a certain user or pair of users (Metal Sonic vs. Shining Latios) which is something I want to avoid. If I can get the information I need from someone without making the entire game focus on a certain argument, that is the course of action I will take.
And I've been pretty confrontational with zorbees and Walrein this entire day, so saying I am not starting fights is pretty misguided (regarding Day 2 at least).
I'm tired and I'm going to bed. I probably won't be able to post again for like another 12 hours or more.
Hi,
I'm posting this at school now, So this may be a little rushed.
I find that the pressure from zorbees and askaninjask is very helpful in generating reads on Spiffy. It is still insufficient at this point in time to issue a 100% scum/town read, but
based on my reads at the moment, it is unfortunate that Spiffy is still leaning scum.
I am waiting for spiffy to trip. Please carry on with the questioning
I'm posting this at school now, So this may be a little rushed.
I find that the pressure from zorbees and askaninjask is very helpful in generating reads on Spiffy. It is still insufficient at this point in time to issue a 100% scum/town read, but
based on my reads at the moment, it is unfortunate that Spiffy is still leaning scum.
I am waiting for spiffy to trip. Please carry on with the questioning
What I do find interesting, is that zorbees is really active at this moment, and right on top of everything, while he was rather inactive on day 1. This could just be a case of him being busy during most of day 1, but it could also be that something, or someone, is moving him into taking up more action.
Also, on day 1, DLE said that he thought Empoof and zorbees were most likely mafia (somewhere on page 12, iirc). It could be a mafia move to frame Empoof and zorbees, but the fact remains that DLE is very much dead, and that the mafia even went as far as to break sentry on day 1. I don't know if it was out of fear for DLE, the fact that DLE may have been up to something, but still, I think it's quite striking that the mafia already broke the sentry position. Perhaps Empoof and zorbees are indeed mafia, hoping to get rid of DLE before he could push his suspicions harder.
Also, on day 1, DLE said that he thought Empoof and zorbees were most likely mafia (somewhere on page 12, iirc). It could be a mafia move to frame Empoof and zorbees, but the fact remains that DLE is very much dead, and that the mafia even went as far as to break sentry on day 1. I don't know if it was out of fear for DLE, the fact that DLE may have been up to something, but still, I think it's quite striking that the mafia already broke the sentry position. Perhaps Empoof and zorbees are indeed mafia, hoping to get rid of DLE before he could push his suspicions harder.
Votecount 2.5
Lynch:
Spiffy: (4) askaninjask Walrein Metal Sonic zorbees
Shining Latios: (3) shinyskarmory More Cowbell LightWolf
zorbees: (2) Spiffy TPM
shinyskarmory: (1)zorbees Shining Latios
Eagle4: (1) Jalmont
Not Voting: (2) Eagle4, Empoof
Sentry:
Walrein: (3) Eagle4 askaninjask Walrein
LightWolf: (2) Spiffy TPM
Jalmont: (1) Jalmont
shinyskarmory: (1) shinyskarmory
More Cowbell: (1) More Cowbell
zorbees: (1) Shining Latios
Not Voting: (4) LightWolf, zorbees, Empoof, Metal Sonic
With 13 alives it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is in 81 - 6 = 75 hours, 2:00 PM GMT.
shinyskarmory has been prodded.
Lynch:
Spiffy: (4) askaninjask Walrein Metal Sonic zorbees
Shining Latios: (3) shinyskarmory More Cowbell LightWolf
zorbees: (2) Spiffy TPM
shinyskarmory: (1)
Eagle4: (1) Jalmont
Not Voting: (2) Eagle4, Empoof
Sentry:
Walrein: (3) Eagle4 askaninjask Walrein
LightWolf: (2) Spiffy TPM
Jalmont: (1) Jalmont
shinyskarmory: (1) shinyskarmory
More Cowbell: (1) More Cowbell
zorbees: (1) Shining Latios
Not Voting: (4) LightWolf, zorbees, Empoof, Metal Sonic
With 13 alives it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is in 81 - 6 = 75 hours, 2:00 PM GMT.
shinyskarmory has been prodded.
smh nothing happened in the 6 hours since i last posted
not very encouraged to post a thesis here because lack of people, but
1.more cowbell I appreciate your efforts but I doubt what you're thinking is of the case
2. I still find spiffy leaning scum, will read his new posts tomorrow, meanwhile zorbees and askaninjask please keep up the pressure!
3. dont really find shinyskarm scummy atm i guess
4.jalmont's theory on eagle is convincing but he seems more 'helpful' than Cowbell or walrein or SL atm(or is he?), so I may hold him off till later
5. 3 more days till deadline yippeee
not very encouraged to post a thesis here because lack of people, but
1.more cowbell I appreciate your efforts but I doubt what you're thinking is of the case
2. I still find spiffy leaning scum, will read his new posts tomorrow, meanwhile zorbees and askaninjask please keep up the pressure!
3. dont really find shinyskarm scummy atm i guess
4.jalmont's theory on eagle is convincing but he seems more 'helpful' than Cowbell or walrein or SL atm(or is he?), so I may hold him off till later
5. 3 more days till deadline yippeee