Ability Categories

Why is Trace Can be Activated? Why are abilities with commands like Drought and Intimidate Innate? Why are abilities like Magnet Pull (which have ongoing effects in addition to command-based ones) Can be Activated? Why are two of our ability categories (Trait and Innate) synonyms of each other? And, as a more minor issue, why do three of our categories have such clunky names?

The four ability categories we have at the moment are kind of confusing, given how abilities that function in similar or even identical manners can wind up in different categories, while abilities that function in significantly different ways might end up in the same category.

The current ability categories and their descriptions are as follows:

Deck Knight said:

Ability Type:

Trait: This Ability is always in effect as a natural part of the Pokemon, even in matches where No Ability is specified.
Innate: This Ability is always in effect, although it may only be activated in certain situations.
Can be Activated: This Ability can be activated (specified by each ability) in battle at any time, but it uses an action. Activated abilities use Commands and have variable energy costs.
Can be Enabled: This Ability can be enabled at the beginning of a round without using an action, however the trainer must be issuing their attacks first. It will remain enabled until ordered otherwise. If the Pokemon has just been sent out, the ability may be enabled upon entry.
Can be Disabled: This Ability can be disabled at the beginning of a round without using an action, however the trainer must be issuing their attacks first. It will remain disabled until ordered otherwise. If the Pokemon has just been sent out, the ability may be disabled upon entry.

Click to expand...

This thread is for discussing clearer categories (both name-wise and definition-wise) for abilities. Feel free to throw out suggestions.

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When I was looking through the abilities in the Data Audit Thread, I found that there are seven kinds of ability. One of those, however, had literally only one ability that fit, so I merged it with the closest of the other six kinds and so I have this list:

Objection said:

1. Traits [abilities that, for game balance purposes, are forced to be always active even in no ability matches or when not chosen] (Defeatist, Slow Start and Truant)
2. Always active or conditionally active abilities that are not traits (Flash Fire, Guts, Levitate ...)
3. Abilities that cause something to happen when the pokemon is sent out and can have this effect be caused again by spending an action and some energy (Drought, Intimidate, Trace ...)
4. Abilities with an effect that is tied to a command but does not automatically activate when the pokemon is sent out; such abilities sometimes but not always have additional ongoing effects like those of abilities in category 2 (Cloud Nine, Magnet Pull, Rebound ...)
5. Abilities with an ongoing effect that can be turned on or off; currently the category names Can be Enabled and Can be Disabled imply whether the default is on or off (Illuminate, Normalize, Sheer Force ...)
6. Abilities with two possible ongoing effects that the pokemon can switch between (Effect Spore, Poison Point, Poison Touch ...)

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My original proposal was to keep these six kinds of ability in separate categories defined (though not necessarily named (although I like Passive over Innate)) like this:

Objection said:

1. Trait: This ability is always in effect as a natural part of the Pokemon, even in matches where no ability is specified or in matches where one ability other than this ability is specified.
2. Passive: This ability is always in effect except in matches where no ability is specified or in matches where one ability other than this ability is specified. The ability's effect may always be active or it may be active only under certain circumstances.
3. Auto-activate: This ability's effect happens immediately when the Pokemon is sent out. By spending an action and a certain amount of energy, the Pokemon can trigger this ability's effect again later in the battle.
4. At-will activation: This ability has an effect that can only be activated by spending an action and a certain amount of energy. Abilities in this category may have other effects that work like the effects of Passive abilities.
5. At-will suppression: This ability can be switched on or off by the Pokemon. While the ability is on, its effect works like the effects of Passive abilities; while it is off, it has no effect whatsoever. Abilities in this category specify whether they are on or off by default, but the Pokemon may switch the ability on or off when it is sent out or at the start of any round in which its trainer is ordering first. Switching the ability on or off does not take up an action or cost any energy.
6. Two-effect: This ability has two possible effects that the Pokemon can choose between. Whichever effect is chosen works like the effects of Passive abilities. One effect is specified as the default, but the Pokemon may switch between effects when it is sent out or at the start of any round in which its trainer is ordering first. Switching between effects does not take up an action or cost any energy.

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However, it is certainly possible to condense the categories to five or four and still avoid confusion, and perhaps provide simpler definitions and better names for the categories. For example, the categories I called "Auto-activate" and "At-will activation" could potentially be merged into one, as could the categories I called "At-will suppression" and "Two-effect". With that in mind, I will also propose this ability category system somewhat based on one suggested by ZhengTann here:

Alternative Ability Category System said:

1. Trait: This ability is always in effect as a natural part of the Pokemon, even in matches where no ability is specified or in matches where one ability other than this ability is specified.
2. Passive: This ability is always in effect except in matches where no ability is specified or in matches where one ability other than this ability is specified. The ability's effect may always be active or it may be active only under certain circumstances.
3. Activated: This ability has an effect that is activated by spending an action and a certain amount of energy. Sometimes the effect will also be activated automatically when the Pokemon is sent out; this may or may not cost energy. Abilities in this category may have additional ongoing effects like those of Passive abilities.
4. Toggle: This ability has two effects that the Pokemon can choose between, one of which is given as the default and one of which may be no effect whatsoever. The effects of these abilities are like those of Passive abilities. The Pokemon may toggle between the two effects when sent out or at the start of any round in which its trainer is ordering first. Toggling between effects does not take up an action or cost any energy.

Click to expand...

Of course, it may still be possible to simplify the ability category system even further, which is why I have made this discussion thread. So without further ado, let's discuss the ability category system!

So yeah, Obj refined my response to his proposal, and out comes the Alternative Ability Category System. The way I see it, that second quote tag's contents would be simpler than the system initially put together in Obj's proposal, since:

1. Trying to categorize / remember 4 different Ability Types is easier than trying to do the same to 6.
2. The 4 proposed already fits into the system originally conceived. All we have to do, is to maybe rearrange some Abilities so that they fit into the correct category.

So if we do end up voting for a system change, what follows will be a Discussion thread going through the Abilities and deciding which one deserves special attention to be moved into another category. (which is just right up my alley) But the end product, as I see it, would be worth the tedium - at the very least, new players won't ask the questions that started Obj's OP (or maybe they'll just ask on a less frequent basis). Veterans will probably grouch and groan as they edit their 60-mon profile to adapt, but this is a long process - it's not like it will happen overnight when EMma decides to go on a power trip ^_^

I like Toggle a lot more than "Can Be Activated / Deactivated."

Another thing that can be simplified is by adding subtext to certain abilities that have commands, and using shorter annotations.

Under this system we would have three different main categories and a few subtexts:

Main Categories:
P: Passive - Passive Abilities are always in effect whether they require outside activation or not.
T: Toggle - Toggle Abilities are abilities that require the trainer to state whether and/ or what kind of effect they produce.
TR: Trait - Traits are always in effect regardless of match type

SubTexts:
a: Ability - The entire Ability is either "on" or "off".
e: Effect - The ability has multiple effects that can be selected from but is never "on" or "off."
lc: Limited Command - The ability has an associated command or commands that can be used only in limited circumstances.
uc: Unlimited Command - The ability has an associated command or commands that can be used in almost all circumstances.

Examples would look like the following:

Truant: (Trait) [TR] Truant is always in effect regardless of match type.

Magnet Pull: (Passive / Unlimited Command) [Puc] Magnet Pull has a passive effect that is always active, but also has commands associated with it.

Flash Fire: (Passive) [P] Passive removes the need for a distinction between Innate and Can be Activated since the latter usually required an outside condition.

Drought: (Passive / Unlimited Command) [Puc] Drought requires that it be activated upon switching in, and has an associated Command that can be used in battle any time.

Intimidate: (Passive / Limited Command) [Plc] Intimidate always happens on switch-in, but also a command that can only be used in limited circumstances (You can Intimidate new switch-ins).

Pickpocket: (Passive / Limited Command) [Plc] Pickpocket has a passive effect that is always active, however its command requires a specific type of battle to be used (Doubles or Greater), even though it can be used at any time in those matches. Whether this is lc or uc on the subtext is subject to interpretation, but I'd go with lc because it can never be used in Singles, and even in doubles its unlikely you'll be swapping items back and forth a lot.

Color Change: (Passive / Unlimited Command) [Puc] Color Change requires a command to implement its effect, but the ability is always "on." The command can't really be used the first action unless Kecleon is slower, but that's so minor a restriction as to be irrelevant.

Sheer Force: (Toggle / Ability) [Ta] Toggle obliterates the need for two categories and blends them into one, however you can either turn Sheer Force ON or OFF, so it affects the whole ability.

Trace: (Toggle / Limited Command) [Tlc] Trace in this instance would be a Toggle ability since you are not forced to trace an opponents ability upon release, but you can do so. Trace is a limited command in the sense that its effect is temporary and cannot be used all the time (unlike Magnet Pull's commands)

Poison Point: (Toggle / Effect) [Te] Toggle again makes it so there's only one main category of ability, but since Poison Point toggles between two different effects, we'll simply call the usual effect "Effect 1" and the ASB added effect "Effect 2."

What do you all think? I believe it balances the need to keep the system simple and easy to understand with the need to make it easy for refs and battlers to figure out what is going on and respond appropriately with their Toggles in battles.

I don't think we need to distinguish between limited and unlimited commands, since the ability descriptions should make it obvious when the commands can be used. Other than that, it appears to be as complex as the original proposal I made.

Objection said:

I don't think we need to distinguish between limited and unlimited commands, since the ability descriptions should make it obvious when the commands can be used. Other than that, it appears to be as complex as the original proposal I made.

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Difference being that subtext allows it to be summarized in 3 letters instead of 3 words, and it reduces abilities to two primary categories (Passive and Toggle, with Traits being largely a throwaway).

I also used the subtext because of a case like trace where the ability is toggled and also associated with a command, but if I remove Limited/Unlimited and just did Command, that'd suffer a minimal loss of clarity.

Either way if we remove lc and uc and reduce to just c (for command), we're using 5 parameters to describe all non-trait abilities, and removing a ton of confusion and clutter in the process.

I'd prefer the clarity of simply stating when the command can be used outright.

"command: intimidate, blah blah, you may activate this ability whenever an opponent switches in"

I think it can be agreed that Passive, Toggle and Trait would be well-defined Ability Types. Deck's subtext would cover for most contingencies he listed above, but it's best if we could have a minimal amount of syntax. So I'm thinking perhaps we could remove the "Ability" and "Effect" subtext since they basically mean the same thing (turning Poison Point ON gives you in-catridge effects, turning it OFF gives another, and the same happens with Sheer Force).

The result? Voila, 4 Ability Types. Trait, Passive, Toggle, Command.

• Trait: Trait is Trait.
• Passive: Mostly what is before Innate, such as Flash Fire and Iron Fist.
• Toggle: Basically, abilities that have two effects that need to be switched manually (Poison Point, Sheer Force).
• Command: Abilities that would require explicit orders to have effects, such as Trace.

Worth noting that an Ability need not have one Type - as Deck stated, stuff like Magnet Pull could be (Passive / Command), just to let people know that there is a command associated with the ability. and yeah I always thought Intimidate should be a command in this case - like, if Tomohawk forgets to roar when Haxorus switches in, that Haxorus won't be scared at all.

... we're going around in circles aren't we? Well at least the radius is shortening.

Out of curiosity, is there any particular reason why the toggle abilities can only be toggled if you're ordering first? Unless there would be a way to break the abilities by toggling them after knowing your opponent's orders (and I can't think of any right now that would be like that, most of them are just toggled into one mode and left there) it seems kinda silly that if you don't toggle the ability immediately upon switching in/ordering first you have to wait two more rounds to toggle it.

Flamestrike said:

Out of curiosity, is there any particular reason why the toggle abilities can only be toggled if you're ordering first? Unless there would be a way to break the abilities by toggling them after knowing your opponent's orders (and I can't think of any right now that would be like that, most of them are just toggled into one mode and left there) it seems kinda silly that if you don't toggle the ability immediately upon switching in/ordering first you have to wait two more rounds to toggle it.

Click to expand...

Sheer Force is the best example of why the rule exists, so say you could Toggle it on any round you move. If your Darmanitan is moving second this round, all of a sudden you can choose to toggle Sheer Force off, get the Nitro Charge boost, and screw with your opponent's actions. By essentially requiring you to toggle on release or when moving first, you can't make an already strong ability even more powerful.

OK, discussion for this seems to be winding down so I'm going to draft a slate.

[box]Retain the current ability category system
Implement Objection's initially proposed ability category system
Implement Objection's alternative ability category system
Implement Deck Knight's ability category system
Implement ZhengTann's ability category system[/box]

EDIT: In light of a new system being proposed below, I am revoking the 24 hour warning.

Really, we are trying to split abilities into 34768 categories to express what is already expressed in other areas of the DAT or can be expressed in ability descriptions. Furthermore, so many subcategories makes for an inconsistent ability categorization process, as no consistent pattern can be developed. As such, here is my system:

[box]Passive: The ability's effect is always active. examples: chlorophyll, rock head
Toggle: The ability has two possible effects. Unless otherwise stated, the first of the two effects is the one that is active. examples: normalize, sheer force, zen mode
Command: The ability is activated on a command. Commands take an action to perform unless otherwise stated. examples: intimidate, drought, trace, color change[/box]

now, this doesn't perfectly just /reclassify/ abilities. Though Passive abilities are largely unaffected, this system would force a large-scale auditing of the ability descriptions for consistency without changing their effects. (I'd be willing to do all this slave work). For example, we'd need to change poison point from this:
[box]This Pokemon’s spikes/quills/thorns are coated in poison, and there is a 30% chance of poisoning any foe that uses a contact attack on this Pokemon. When disabled, all of this Pokemon's attacks that inflict regular poison will inflict Toxic poison (with the same chance of effect). Type: Can Be Disabled[/box]to this:
[box](Toggle) 1: Any foe that uses a contact attack on this Pokemon has a 30% chance of being poisoned. 2: The Pokemon's attacks that inflict regular poison instead have the same chance of inflicting Toxic poison.[/box]
Sheer force would say:
[box](Toggle) 1: No effect. 2: The Base Attack Power of every move with a secondary effect increases by two (2), but they will never have their usual secondary effect.[/box]
Intimidate would go from:
[box]When this Pokemon initially goes out into the battlefield, it generates an intimidating roar or war cry that shakes all opponents on the battlefield, reducing their Attack stage by one (1). The attack drop is maintained at the end of each round. If an opponent switches in a new Pokemon, Intimidate can be activated again as a Command, and will affect all opponents.

Command: (Ability: Intimidate)[/box]to:
[box](Command) Command name: "Intimidate". Intimidate is automatically used, without taking a turn, for 0 energy, when the Pokemon is sent out and can be used when the opponent sends out a new pokemon.[/box]Meanwhile under the 'commands' list, Intimidate's command would read exactly as it currently does:

Similarly, Drought would read:
[box](Command) Command name: "Drought". Drought is automatically used, without taking a turn, for 10 energy, when the Pokemon is sent out and can be reused at any time.[/box]and its command list entry would remain unchanged

Color Change would say:
[box](Innate) If the Pokemon with this ability is Kecleon, then using Camouflage causes its entire body to change color, increasing its evasion one (1) stage for six (6) actions.
(Command) Command Name: "Color Change: (Type)". Color Change can be used at any time.[/box]and, again, the color change command would be unchanged

edit: [8:52pm] Objection: you forgot traits pwne

Defeatist's text would turn into this:
[box](Passive) The Pokemon tires from prolonged battles easily, and its Attack and Special Attack reduce by two (2) Ranks when at or below 50% of its maximum HP. Once Defeatist is active, attacks cost two (2) less energy. If the Pokemon goes back above 50% of its maximum HP in battle, Defeatist's effects will disappear. Defeatist is always active, even in No Ability matches or matches where it is not the chosen Ability.[/box]
a similar addendum would be given to Truant and slow Start

tl;dr: like zt's kinda but with a larger rewrite of abilities for ease and consistency

OK, looks like discussion is winding down again, so I'm gonna post another slate and another 24-hour warning. That's right, this thread will be locked and a voting thread will be made in 24 hours unless discussion picks up again or another system is proposed.

[box]Retain the current ability category system
Implement Objection's initially proposed ability category system
Implement Objection's alternative ability category system
Implement Deck Knight's ability category system
Implement ZhengTann's ability category system
Implement Pwnemon's ability category system[/box]

Also, since looking at all the details of all the category systems can seem a little daunting, I'm going to try to summarise the key features of each one:

Current system

The one we've been using all this time.

Objection's first system

Six categories called Trait, Passive, Auto-activate, At-will activation, At-will suppression and Two-effect. Each ability has one category.

Objection's second system

Four categories called Trait, Passive, Activated and Toggle. Each ability has one category.

Deck Knight's system

Three main categories called Trait, Passive and Toggle, and three or four subtexts called Ability, Effect and (Limited or Unlimited) Command. Each ability has one category, and Toggle and some Passive abilities have one subtext. Category annotations are shortened to just a few characters.

ZhengTann's system

Four categories called Trait, Passive, Toggle and Command. Each ability has one or more categories. Command abilities do not activate automatically when the Pokemon is sent out.

Pwnemon's system

Three categories called Passive, Toggle and Command. Each ability has one or more categories; abilities with multiple categories have their descriptions organised based on which parts fit which category. Trait abilities are classified as Passive and have a line added to their descriptions regarding their trait status.

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If I've missed anything important or got anything wrong, let me know as soon as possible. If I can find the time, I might also whip up a google docs spreadsheet with example abilities and how they would be classified in each category system.

closing, vote going up ^^