CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 6.5 (BST Spillover)

Well, nothing looks even exceedingly fast as of yet, so that shouldn't be a problem. =D Besides, I thought you decided that the art poll should come after the stat spread poll?

Anyways, Gyarados and Togekiss were mentioned because their outspeeding of this Pokemon is also of utmost importance.

Gyarados, in my opinion, should be able to switch in and out against this Pokemon with well-thought predictions, being one of the Pokemon that don't actually take much damage from its attacks while still getting beaten by it one-on-one (unless it carries Stone Edge).

Togekiss is the most solid counter for this Pokemon, and allowing it to outspeed this Pokemon means that there will be at least one Pokemon that can always be considered a "counter" to our Fire/Grass. One of the things earlier projects lacked was a complete and absolute counter to the creations, and allowing Togekiss to outspeed and threaten it with its primary attack is one of the things that will help towards the balancing of such a fearsome Pokemon.

There's another Pokemon I would like to mention, and that's Tentacruel. While it is not as solid of a counter as Togekiss (who has an instant recovery move), it will probably almost always outspeed this Pokemon (unless some of the higher speed stat spreads win, but even then, Tentacruel will probably outspeed even with no speed EVs). Liquid Ooze can counteract the effects of Leech Seed, forcing both Pokes to lose HP instead of one. The Fire/Grass might also revive the usage of Sludge Bomb (whose slot on Tentacruel is generally only used to cover other Pokemon a team may be weak to), which hits it for quite a lot of damage, and also diversifies the choices Tentacruel can make on selecting its fourth move.

This is the kind of thinking we need for the project to become a success, I think.

Jonathan said:

And did anyone else notice that 3/3 Pokemon we created are weak to Flying :/

Click to expand...

Yeah, I noticed that too and that has to stop :x

Karrot said:

Well, nothing looks even exceedingly fast as of yet, so that shouldn't be a problem. =D Besides, I thought you decided that the art poll should come after the stat spread poll?

Click to expand...

Erh...right, I'm sorta stuck between starting the art poll first and starting the stat spread poll first. I understand that stat =/= art all the time but it seem start either one before the other have it's problems.

Karrot said:

Anyways, Gyarados and Togekiss were mentioned because their outspeeding of this Pokemon is also of utmost importance.

Gyarados, in my opinion, should be able to switch in and out against this Pokemon with well-thought predictions, being one of the Pokemon that don't actually take much damage from its attacks while still getting beaten by it (unless it carries Stone Edge).

Click to expand...

I thought Gyarados was 2HKO'd by this thing's Grass Knot, or maybe I'm thinking of something else.

Karrot said:

Togekiss is the most solid counter for this Pokemon, and allowing it to outspeed this Pokemon means that there will be at least one Pokemon that can always be considered a "counter" to our Fire/Grass. One of the things earlier projects lacked was a complete and absolute counter to the creations, and allowing Togekiss to outspeed and threaten it with its primary attack is one of the things that will help towards the balancing of such a fearsome Pokemon.

Click to expand...

As much as I would hate to have this thing get outsped by the most hax-inducing creature known to man, I have to agree with you on this one.

I like how Tentacruel should be able to counter this thing and Syclant.

I'm not sure that Togekiss would be a great counter even if it always outsped this thing. STAB Fire Blasts hurt. Sure it has nice SDef, but not that nice.

Hm... Why do all Thick Fat Pokemon have high HP? Those Pokemon would be perfect, if not for the fact that they hate Leech Seed.

Also, what are thoughts on Ludicolo as a counter? Or Cradily, they are the only two Grass-types not hit SE by Fire moves.

Yes, but they're both hit neutral by Grass. If you don't think Togekiss can work as a counter when it at least resists one of this guy's STAB moves, how could Ludiculo work when it's neutral to both. Plus Togekiss has higher SDef. Actually Cradily could work in a Sandstorm. Shuckle could work well too lol. Kind of.

In all honesty, unless this thing only gets four usable moves nothing will be able to counter it 100% of the time. This is the same thing that applies to Lucario. You can't counter all of it's sets with a single Pokemon. Some will counter a few sets, and others some other sets.

Also, why do people only mention OU Pokemon (for the most part) when talking of counters? I can understand not mentioning UU, but if a BL Pokemon can be brought up to usable/OU status, then isn't that a good thing for the environment overall?

Jonathan said:

Yes, but they're both hit neutral by Grass. If you don't think Togekiss can work as a counter when it at least resists one of this guy's STAB moves, how could Ludiculo work when it's neutral to both. Plus Togekiss has higher SDef. Actually Cradily could work in a Sandstorm. Shuckle could work well too lol. Kind of.

Click to expand...

Ludicolo is mostly because I thought of him first, realized Water is no longer SE but decided to leave him there anyways. And for some reason I thought he 4x resisted Grass....

Btw, Heatran is almost ways a counter for this guy. Hidden Power doesn't really count. At least this guy is not weak to two of the three being proposed like Salamence.

We've already mentioned Gyarados, but that is more of an equal match-up.

I can't think of anyone else right now.

Damn, you're right, Gyarados can be 2HKOed (with Aldaron's spread) if the Fire/Grass happens to be running max spatk + modest. I will admit that I haven't done damage calculations for this Pokemon until now, but I think this further proves why Gyarados should be allowed to outspeed it.

As for Togekiss, I will also admit that it does get hit hard by Fire Blast (it's a possible 2HKO if it runs 252 HP with no SpDef boosts; investing in SpDef, which most Togekiss do, will probably turn it away from this). I think we should remember, however, that Togekiss can easily Roost away damage because it does not take much from Grass Knot, and that Fire Blast only has 8 PP. At any rate, I think this further proves why Togekiss should be left as a counter for this Pokemon. I imagine people will start running enough to outspeed the non + speed nature versions of this Pokemon if it actually becomes an OU force.

Ludicolo and Cradily are both 2HKOed by 252 spatk + Modest unless they make large investments. This is, once again, using Aldaron's spread with 104 SpAtk. Well, if Cradily has a Sandstorm, it should be a good counter with Leech Seed immunity and a rock attack.

Yeah, Heatran is a pretty good counter, otherwise, but only Togekiss counters it 100% of the time if it can switch into its attacks.

Charizard, Moltres, Salamence, Dragonite. All are faster, take either half or quarter damage from both STAB attacks, and the only way to counter them is HP. If Rock, hits all SE (likely OHKOs Charizard and Moltres) but may not KO Salamence and Dragonite. Ground hits none of them. Ice is neutral against Charizard and Moltres, and x4 to the dragons.

Flash Fire is also a possible counter. This includes Ninetales, Arcanine, Rapidash, Flareon, Houndoom, and Heatran. All are immune to one stab, and take half damage or less to the other. HP Ice is reduced damage, but all are hit by HP ground and rock.

Thick Fat, as said before, also works. Hariyama, Snorlax, Miltank, Grumpig, and Purugly have no weakness to the STABs, nor likely HPs. They then take half damage from the fire attacks.

Most of this doesn't even look at typing outside making sure they aren't hit SE with STAB, so things like Gyarados and Togekiss weren't included.

To prevent this guy from raping things with Fire Blast, I don't think its Special Attack should be greater than 100. Seems like a nice cut-off point to me. This guy should be like Starmie IMO, in that it has good SAtk, but SAtking isn't its primary role.

REvised spread:

110/70/120/100/100/45

Thing is still slow as, but -_-

The Physical defence lets it take a Stone edge from CBTar with 252/252 Relaxed.

70 lets it still be able to attack with FP. 100 SAtk for the reason Jonothan listed.

100Sdef to not let it struggle behind in SDef.

How about Tentacruel as a counter? It resists fire, takes neutral from grass, has pretty high SpD, hits for stab SE and doesn't care about leech seed due to liquid ooze. Only problem is it's weak to HP Ground.
EDIT: Darg, just realize I repeated Hyra

Earthquake ;), as most people want more attack.

That spread could work quite well, provided we make agree not to give it a 50% recovery move. In my opinion anything but Rest should not even be considered. Between Leftovers and Leech Seed, that should be enough without being broken. Personally I'd move 10 points from SDef to Atk, to balance it out a little more.

Since I've seen everyone go in depth, I'll go ahead and do so myself...

HP: 77
Atk: 82
Def: 93
Spd: 78
SAtk: 111
SDef: 99
Total: 540

HP Base: 77
HP Range: 295-358
Comments: Well, let's see. He can reach 352 HP, a somewhat bulky total, with a large EV investment, which I don't see much of a problem with since his other stats are well rounded, and HP is more important than his defenses. With Leech Seed/Ingrain support (should he get them), and his good defenses, he will be hard to take down bar a SE hit.

Attack Base: 82
Attack Range: 200-263 (w/ +Attack nature, 289)
Comments: Obviously, this isn't his main attacking stat, but he'll have enough to pull a mixed attack if you'd like him to. Attacking physically should be his surprise, not his main usage.

Defense Base: 93
Defense Range: 222-285 (w/ +Defense nature, 313)
Comments: Bulky enough to take a couple SE non-Banded hits, and bulky enough to take NVE hits rather well. I didn't want to put too much emphasis on Defense since he's supposed to be a well rounded defensive Pokemon.

Speed Base: 78
Speed Range: 192-255 (w/ +Speed nature, 280)
Comments: He's got enough speed to outspeed the Dragon Dancers who start with 267 Speed and Seed/status them before they can DDance up. I don't know enough about DP to really give much more input than that about Speed.

Special Attack Base: 111
Special Attack Range: 258-321 (w/ +Special Attack nature, 353)
Comments: Here is where he will shine. If he gets my suggested Flash Fire, his Flamethrowers and Overheats will hurt. Even without Flash Fire, I would assume he would be able to get Nasty Plot, Calm Mind, and/or Growth to boost his nice Special Attack. I'd say his Grass typing should give support and defensive roles, while his Fire typing would be his more offensive side. Of course, Leaf Storm and Giga Drain will be decent, but Grass isn't the best offensive type.

Special Defense Base: 94
Special Defense Range: 224-287 (w/ +Special Attack nature, 315)
Comments: As stated before, he is supposedly going to be defensively balanced, so I didn't want the two defensive stats to be that much different. He can take Surfs and Ice Beams easily, and soak up Thunderbolt/Thunder attacks better than Venusaur. I'd say with good enough support Grass attacks, he could replace Venusaur as one of the better bulky Grass types.

Jonathan said:

That spread could work quite well, provided we make agree not to give it a 50% recovery move. In my opinion anything but Rest should not even be considered. Between Leftovers and Leech Seed, that should be enough without being broken. Personally I'd move 10 points from SDef to Atk, to balance it out a little more.

Click to expand...

NO 50% recovery, Rest + Subseed is too good as is. I'll do a write up later.

As for moving from SDef to attack, that makes it unbalanced. 70/100 is good enough for somthing with 110/120/100.

EDIT: With the above, the problem is that it becomes mediocre at everything, not specialized, and it also is screwed over by anything with a decently powered Rock move (Gyara, T-tar, Chomp, ect)

Aki said:

NO 50% recovery, Rest + Subseed is too good as is.

Click to expand...

Agreed, well put that down on attacks it shouldn't later. Speaking of which, I got to post the final tally.

526 - 535: 16
536 - 545: 30

Aki, you do realize that giving it 110 HP /120 Def makes it the sturdiest physical wall this side of Ubers. It takes neutral physical hits better than Hippowdon. And you're willing to give it 30 more SDef than Hippo?

By the way, the two together would form an outstanding physical resistance, covering each other's weaknesses excellently.

I don't support Flash Fire. Don't give this Flash Fire, in my opinion, else you want this to become even more powerful than it already is. It should be obvious by now that some of its counters are primarily fire types, and it should stay that way.

I wouldn't worry too much about it "taking neutral physical hits better than Hippowdon," as this is definitely not getting any instant recovery (not even Synthesis, I think). Add to the fact that the Hippo resists the powerful Rock attacks and summons a Sandstorm that will most likely hinder the foe means it would still be superior in physical defense. All that aside, 100 HP/120 Def isn't too devastating, but higher HP instead of defense would most likely balance that out.

Anyways, I'm going to predict a total attacking set for this Pokemon: Fire Blast/Grass Knot/Hidden Power: Rock/Filler.

I'm am almost certain that HP: Rock will be the standard on an attacking set, now, seeing as it hits most of the fire types that wall this (along with the Flying/Dragon Pokemon) super effective. If you paired that set with a Dugtrio to snipe Heatran (I feel like I'm repeating myself x_x), it can do a number to a team. There's probably better attackers out there already, though.

Karrot said:

I don't support Flash Fire. Don't give this Flash Fire, in my opinion, else you want this to become even more powerful than it already is. It should be obvious by now that some of its counters are primarily fire types, and it should stay that way.

I wouldn't worry too much about it "taking neutral physical hits better than Hippowdon," as this is definitely not getting any instant recovery (not even Synthesis, I think). Add to the fact that the Hippo resists the powerful Rock attacks and summons a Sandstorm that will most likely hinder the foe means it would still be superior in physical defense. All that aside, 100 HP/120 Def isn't too devastating, but higher HP instead of defense would most likely balance that out.

Anyways, I'm going to predict a total attacking set for this Pokemon: Fire Blast/Grass Knot/Hidden Power: Rock/Filler.

I'm am almost certain that HP: Rock will be the standard on an attacking set, now, seeing as it hits most of the fire types that wall this (along with the Flying/Dragon Pokemon) super effective. If you paired that set with a Dugtrio to snipe Heatran (I feel like I'm repeating myself x_x), it can do a number to a team. There's probably better attackers out there already, though.

Click to expand...

This is basically a slow Infernape.

Jonathan said:

Aki, you do realize that giving it 110 HP /120 Def makes it the sturdiest physical wall this side of Ubers. It takes neutral physical hits better than Hippowdon. And you're willing to give it 30 more SDef than Hippo?

By the way, the two together would form an outstanding physical resistance, covering each other's weaknesses excellently.

Click to expand...

We've made the ultimate mixed sweeper and the ultimate set-up pokemon. I see nothing wrong with making the best Physical wall.

Btw, Cresselia has 120/120/130, making IT the best physical wall this side of ubers ;)

If we've got such a spread such as 110/60/120/100/100/55, you immediatly go "Zomg wow BS rock like Metallica", but you can't do everything at once. Celebi cannot Subseed, Special attack efficiantly and Wall, while still maintaining Hazard support.

Btw, who really cares about hippowdon outside a Stall/SS team. It has Sandstream, setting up residual damage and it can Phaze, Sr and EQ/slack off. It has instant healing, whilst this will not.

Alright, I fixed my spread back on page 3 to fit it into the correct BST range, though it's efficiency is now at 537, for what it matters. It's ready for the poll if that's happening soon, just use that post.

With the amount of bulk we are putting into this thing, I think 120 SAtk would be far too powerful. Considering the attacking type coverage on Grass/Fire, putting too many things is just asking for trouble.

People have suggested:
Flash Fire/Solar Power
120+ SAtk
Fire Blast, Grass Knot, and HP
Nasty Plot/Calm Mind/Growth
100+ in all three defense stats

I think any three of these conditions together would make this pokemon Uber. The most important things to me are that it has a toned down SAtk and there is a weak point somewhere in its three defenses.

i think if we took a big hit out of aki's defenses and gave it to speed it'd help significantly.

say...instead of...

110/70/120/100/100/45

something more like...

125/75/100/108/85/77


higher hp still helps a lot, but the special defense is much less, and the physical defense is a lot lower too..


i donno.


EDIT: AND. no way should this thing get calm mind/nasty plot/growth. i think swords dance or maybe sharpen is good enough, because it's the lower attacking stat and lots of fires and grassers get it. very few fires or grassers get nasty plot, and even less learn calm mind...and two of the three fire or grass calm minders get nasty plot. make it's special attack really high if you want, but NO nasty plot. it's a rare move for a reason, and giving it to this would make all three of the CAPs have nasty plot/tail glow...

Instead of giving feedback on the ideas others have thrown out, maybe you should give feedback pertaining to your own ideas. Growth is a common Grass type move, so if someone thinks it would be fitting to have it on this Pokemon, they might have a different idea in mind than what others have stated. If for some reason Growth or Nasty Plot or anything would be a suitable move on the Pokemon, maybe we should adjust its stats.

Also, I still haven't seen anyone reply as to why we're worried about the total when it is the individual stats themselves that matter most.

125/75/100/108/85/77

Click to expand...

Dude, AckJustAck. You might think that 125 makes up for the defences, but in reality it dosen't. You're not needing those 5 points in attack. SDef cries out for balanced. That speed makes me cry, we're ending up with a mediocre theme again.

The spread given (110/70/120/100/100/45) Gives it Balanced Defences, (20%), Special Attack orientated (70/100), and it Has the maximum balanced SpA (Someone said somewhere that giving it >100 makes it unbalanced, but i've lost the post).

Flash Fire/Solar Power (Mabye)
120+ SAtk
Fire Blast, Grass Knot, and HP
Nasty Plot/Calm Mind/Growth (Mabye)
100+ in all three defense stats

Click to expand...

We'd either be giving it Growth, Or a good ability. No way does this thing need +2 stat boosts or +1/+1 ones. That just makes this thing the shitz.

I don't see how Fire blast, GK and Hidden power contribute to it being uber...If we went by your standards, Heatran would be uber.

Also, I still haven't seen anyone reply as to why we're worried about the total when it is the individual stats themselves that matter most.

Click to expand...

*Nods Head*

The most important things to me are that it has a toned down SAtk and there is a weak point somewhere in its three defenses.

Click to expand...

Mediocrity, HERE WE COME!

Thing is, We haven't made a CAP that's a wall. Revenankh is a Sweeper, who just happens to be bulky. Besides, if we give it a weak point in it's defences, then you end up with a 5 space team.

(Low defence? Say hi Garchomp, Dragonite, Salamence, Weavile and Tyranitar!)
(Low SpD? Say hi Togekiss, Tentacruel, Gengar and Random power gemers!)
(Low SpA? Say hi to not being able to counter Bulky Grounds, Waters, and Steels, which was the point of this thing in the first place!)

I don't support Flash Fire. Don't give this Flash Fire, in my opinion, else you want this to become even more powerful than it already is. It should be obvious by now that some of its counters are primarily fire types, and it should stay that way.

I Haven't seen any counter discussion, but please list some Bulky fire types that could switch in and pose an immediate threat.

I wouldn't worry too much about it "taking neutral physical hits better than Hippowdon," as this is definitely not getting any instant recovery (not even Synthesis, I think). Add to the fact that the Hippo resists the powerful Rock attacks and summons a Sandstorm that will most likely hinder the foe means it would still be superior in physical defense. All that aside, 100 HP/120 Def isn't too devastating, but higher HP instead of defense would most likely balance that out.

*Nods head until All that aside, 100 HP/120 Def isn't too devastating, but higher HP instead of defense would most likely balance that out.*

Thing is, if we make it have more HP, then it's more bulky in general. I'll run calcs, but if we increse the HP we're gonna end up with a fat shit of a Hariyama type thing that's fatter then Steelicks.

Anyways, I'm going to predict a total attacking set for this Pokemon: Fire Blast/Grass Knot/Hidden Power: Rock/Filler.

lmao HP:Rock, just give it power Gem. It clearly can use it and wants HP Ice.

I'm am almost certain that HP: Rock will be the standard on an attacking set, now, seeing as it hits most of the fire types that wall this (along with the Flying/Dragon Pokemon) super effective. If you paired that set with a Dugtrio to snipe Heatran (I feel like I'm repeating myself x_x), it can do a number to a team. There's probably better attackers out there already, though.
See above.

Click to expand...

By the way, the two (CAP and Hippowdon) together would form an outstanding physical resistance, covering each other's weaknesses excellently.

Click to expand...

*Nods Head*

For a fat spread, how about 130/70/102/100/87/56. 130/102/87 has the same hit taking capacity as 110/120/100 (Max HP/Defence stat, + Nature wise anyway), and it's faster, but you can move that to Attack/SpA.