Manipulating RNG in Battles - Predicting "Luck"

[ΩDonut]

Originally Posted by Fat petrie911

I don't know how you'd possibly abuse the RNG on an actual cartridge. The RNG draws a number every frame during battles, so combine that with Wi-Fi lag and you have something completely impossible.

Only in 3rd gen. In 4th gen the state RNG stays the same until a new number is drawn.

[Diesel]

So are we assuming that there are a couple instances of hax on each side that could be predicted, or it would be occuring every other turn (still predicted)? Also how would you know when your opponent will get it? Is each player's hax determined by their own RNG's actions?

So, what new game would Pokemon be if both players could predict opportunities of "luck"? Knowing when they'd get a critical hit, knowing when their opponent would get criticals or freezes, etc.

Depending on the answers to the last questions, it would cause chaos I think. Imagine if someone misses their seed. They'd probably just DC, which is already a big enough problem. Also what are we supposed to do, SR and do a bunch of flips before every battle? A WiFi battle takes long enough as-is without increased preparation.

As for the match itself, I think people wouldn't really consider packing a Shell/Battle Armor user (who's to say it would be a good switch-in anyway?), maybe use Honchkrow/Absol a little more, maybe use Sniper Kingdra / Drapion a little more, maybe use + critical hit moves a little more, but things like Feint Scizor are completely inconceivable, IMO. I think teams would remain pretty unchanged for the most part. One think I think that would really change would be that people would hang onto "death fodder" a lot tighter, to absorb the hax with little consequence. Also, if someone is waiting half a battle trying to make sure they get their Sniper Kingdra in at the right time to Draco Meteor the shit out of something, are they really going to play the best match in the meantime? Probably not.

I could be wrong, but I think people would freak out over this for a while, then realize it's really not for anyone's benefit to dedicate time and energy learning and applying this process. I think you'd see a lot of sigs saying "no hax manipulation" next to their battle FCs.

That said, it actually be used in tournament finals or something to prevent hax from occuring, which would be cool, but that all depends on if people think hax is "part of the game" and therefore shouldn't be eliminated.

[ΩDonut]

Correction: the in-battle RNG always uses the same sequence in HGSS. In DPPt it still advances by 1 per frame (1\60 second), making it nearly impossible to control.

[acetrainerzx]

I think this will make Wifi battles longer than it is... We don't want to calculate things EVERY SINGLE battle. And I think manipulating the Battle RNG would be cheating... Dude you are just complicating things.

[Jackos]

This may sound awesome/good/bad/awful for some on paper, but bringing this to practice would show that it wouldn't be worth it. I mean lots of people have trouble with calibrating/hitting frames/whatever for RNG breeding, now imagine that if for every battle you would have to do the same bullshit. (I would pull the plug on this game) Some people like me would just say f**k it and either quit from the game or just resign to lose to most people that will use this "luck knowledge", others will abuse it to a point that it will become just like Mario Kart DS's snakeing: a cancer that kills the game (until a new gen introduces a new RNG that is).

Please try to not go too far if you reaserch this, there is no telling what you will find or cause.

[dragonboy52]

I don't think people who like ''Battling" so much will like this + checking every turn will make battles long.

[Despotar]

Originally Posted by Fat Arch

It can certainly be banned, the community makes the metagame. The fact is it's called Rng abuse because that's what it is, abuse. I'm simply saying this will probably never be accepted in this metagame. A seperate clause or option, however, I can see happening. I admit, banning it from wi-fi will be tricky, but the fact remains most people will try to keep this sort of thing off wifi.

Man, you telling this to Obi? xDD He is the community.
If people want to make another server or something to do this, I don't see why it bothers you so much.

[Keatsta]

Originally Posted by Fat Coldcut

I'm a bit surprised no one has drawn a parallel to counting cards in Black Jack. In both cases, "hidden" information is used to gain an advantage. My personal opinion is that, like counting cards in casinos, RNG manipulating should be banned from all forms of competitive play. However, as with counting cards, it is very difficult to prove. My intuition tells me that allowing RNG manipulation to go unchecked would polarize the metagame into those who can/do and those who can't/don't, since, over time, those who "predict luck" will rise above those who don't.

I like your analogy, but I think it's a bit off. Counting cards is taking advantage of information that all players have witnessed and simply organizing it more effectively. It would be analogous in Pokemon to taking notes of which attacks your opponent has used. It's banned from casinos for the simple reason that a good player has a good chance of making money via counting cards, and the casinos don't want players making money. In actual competitive blackjack, you can be sure that all good players would keep track of the cards being played when deciding how to make their bets.

RNG abuse is taking advantage of information that not all players had the opportunity to see. I would compare it to watching the dealer shuffle the deck and memorizing the card positions, an incredibly rare skill that I am actually told some people can perform. This is banned behavior at any level of play.

Anyways, I'm kind of getting off topic. I really like the idea of exploring the RNG abuse in Pokemon not for competitive reasons but because I enjoy watching tool-assisted speedruns of Pokemon. In fact, there's already a lot of research being done on that side of it: advancing the game by a certain amount of frames before attacking to guarantee a critical or whatever.

Originally Posted by Fat Jackos

others will abuse it to a point that it will become just like Mario Kart DS's snakeing: a cancer that kills the game (until a new gen introduces a new RNG that is).

More off topic again, sorry. I haven't had this argument in years but if you really believe this, I'm still willing to try to convince you that your opinion on this is ignorant and wrong.

[cantab]

Originally Posted by Fat Showsni

Surely if player A and B are battling over wifi player A's RNG will handle any of A's calls to the RNG and player B's will handle any of player B's, and then report the outcome to the other player? So, whilst you might be able to tell where your own RNG was, you'd have no information about your opponent's, unless you could manage to work out the seed simply by watching what moves they do and the outcome.

Not necessarily. We know that one cartridge ends up 'host'. Presumably this means all RNG calls are done from ONE cartridge, and the other simply submits stats and move choices, and gets told damage figures.

[Drathos]

Is this going to be possible for battles in the battle frontier facilities?

[callforjudgement]

Originally Posted by Fat cantab

Not necessarily. We know that one cartridge ends up 'host'. Presumably this means all RNG calls are done from ONE cartridge, and the other simply submits stats and move choices, and gets told damage figures.

I'm inclined to agree with this, using the hit chance of Hypnosis as evidence. It's a lot more plausible to imagine that the host system is rolling the chance of Hypnosis itself (for both players), than it is to imagine it asking the other cartridge for an RNG number, then comparing it to Hypnosis's hit chance itself. (And the third option, that the group members ask the host for the hit chance of the attack they're using then calculate themselves, suggests an implausible amount of foresight from Game Freak's point of view, in knowing at the time Diamond/Pearl were released that they planned to change attack hit chances later.)

[petrie911]

Originally Posted by Fat OmegaDonut

Only in 3rd gen. In 4th gen the state RNG stays the same until a new number is drawn.

Outside of battles, yes. But inside of battles, I'm fairly sure that the RNG updates every frame. I did a testrun TAS for Diamond a while back, and the RNG address clearly changed every frame during battles.

Or does the RNG work differently during Wi-Fi battles, as opposed to ingame ones?

EDIT: ah, didn't see your second post. So it only works like that in HGSS. Odd. I wonder why they'd change it. Actually I'm a bit confused why they changed it from the RS method of new RN every frame all the time. It's almost as if they want RNG abuse to happen.

[Syberia]

The only way I would ever want this implemented would be if you were to use it to "justify" a hax-free mode on Shoddy for people who wanted to play with it. Otherwise, it will ruin the game, plain and simple.

I am all for this from a "let's figure out how it works because that would be cool" perspective, but not for implementing it into Shoddy.

Also, purely for lulz, does this mean that certain legendary pokemon + pokeball + IV spread combinations are illegal, since for a particular seed and starting frame, the RNG might always make them run out of PP, Struggle, and kill themselves before it allows you to catch them? I swear people have said they've missed catching it on one try, hit the same seed/frame again, and caught it the second time, though. Unless they're all lying and using the 100% catch code.

[Jumpman16**]

That's a pretty good point, though I guess one could always make the argument that the pokemon they're using were either from someone else's cart and traded over or from their own and stored elsewhere before they hard reset or whatever.

[kokoloko*]

Researching it would be cool, just to see if its possible. However applying stuff like this would certainly ruin the game.

[Mario With Lasers]

Originally Posted by Fat Syberia

Also, purely for lulz, does this mean that certain legendary pokemon + pokeball + IV spread combinations are illegal, since for a particular seed and starting frame, the RNG might always make them run out of PP, Struggle, and kill themselves before it allows you to catch them? I swear people have said they've missed catching it on one try, hit the same seed/frame again, and caught it the second time, though. Unless they're all lying and using the 100% catch code.

I imagine each turn moves the RNG differently, which means every different move you choose already changes the outcome of the battle; so, if first time you went Spore -> Seed Bomb -> False Swipe -> Great Balls and it ended up Struggling and dying, next time you should go, say, Seed Bomb -> Spore -> False Swipe -> Poké Ball -> Great Ball.

[Ferrouswheel]

Originally Posted by Fat Syberia

The only way I would ever want this implemented would be if you were to use it to "justify" a hax-free mode on Shoddy for people who wanted to play with it. Otherwise, it will ruin the game, plain and simple.

I am all for this from a "let's figure out how it works because that would be cool" perspective, but not for implementing it into Shoddy.

Also, purely for lulz, does this mean that certain legendary pokemon + pokeball + IV spread combinations are illegal, since for a particular seed and starting frame, the RNG might always make them run out of PP, Struggle, and kill themselves before it allows you to catch them? I swear people have said they've missed catching it on one try, hit the same seed/frame again, and caught it the second time, though. Unless they're all lying and using the 100% catch code.

If it's DPPt, I think that it was mentioned that RNG advances during the battle, so it would in fact be possible, plus you could use different moves, like fire fang/whatever to advance the frame differently.

Not sure about HG/SS though, it would be interesting if you could guess the IV combination from the pokeball.

[Berserker Lord]

i think this thread is pretty interesting but i'm confused at how the RNG changes in HGSS and DPPt. is it changed based on what moves you use or does it change by itself?

[ΩDonut]

Originally Posted by Fat Berserker Lord

i think this thread is pretty interesting but i'm confused at how the RNG changes in HGSS and DPPt. is it changed based on what moves you use or does it change by itself?

DPPt -> changes all by itself at a rate of 60 frames per second
HGSS -> changes only when the next random number is needed

[Berserker Lord]

Originally Posted by Fat OmegaDonut

DPPt -> changes all by itself at a rate of 60 frames per second
HGSS -> changes only when the next random number is needed

ah ok. So the HGSS RNG only changes whenever you basically do anything in and out of battle right? ( I alwasy get cunfused by this sort of stuff so sorry for asking obvious questions)

[ΩDonut]

Actually, for all 4th gen games the RNG advances only as needed. It's only DPPt that advances 60 frames a second during battle, but it rewinds to the state that it was before the battle started.

[Berserker Lord]

Originally Posted by Fat OmegaDonut

Actually, for all 4th gen games the RNG advances only as needed. It's only DPPt that advances 60 frames a second during battle, but it rewinds to the state that it was before the battle started.

But why would they change it for HGSS? that just confuses me

[Syberia]

I don't know, but it really seems like they made 4th gen easier to abuse than 3rd gen. Almost like some programmer somewhere was encouraging us to crack/abuse it.

[Berserker Lord]

Originally Posted by Fat Syberia

I don't know, but it really seems like they made 4th gen easier to abuse than 3rd gen. Almost like some programmer somewhere was encouraging us to crack/abuse it.

thats prob the most likely answer but why would they want us to crack the RNG when it's supposed to be hidden from the players? Guess the programmers found out that people leraned to abuse the system and decided to make it easier for some odd reason?

[muna]

The day that players begin to be able to abuse this in battles consistently is the day that Pokemon dies. If the game becomes more about abusing an RNG than skill, than what is the point of even playing? I just hope that Shoddy Battle never implements this.