np: UU Stage 3 - We Are The Champions

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DetroitLolcat said:
Yeah, Suicune really isn't that good in this meta, as Snunch said, it's basically setup fodder once it hits low health. Rest should only be used on a really bulky set-up Pokemon or a Natural Cure mon such as Roserade* and Shaymin*. Really, Suicune just has too much four-moveslot syndrome and not enough attackign power to be a great bulky Water. To all you Suicune users, give Milotic or Slowbro (or Empoleon or Blastoise) a try, all four are arguably better than Suicune.

*both of those Pokemon are amazing in this metagame. Use them.
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Suicnue can run an offensive set though, so that's something it has above other bulky Waters I guess. Has anyone had any success using it? Actually, Slowbro can run a CM set too, which is annoying as fuck. If you don't have a phaser you're pretty much screwed...
 
Offensive Suicune I guess has competition with Offensive Milotic, who has higher Special Attack and recovery, while CM Slowbro has Calm Mind and recovery. I haven't tested offensive Suicune yet, but it doesn't look like it would be much better than the other bulky waters. Could be interesting, though.
 
Cune has that gen 4 standard cm + 3 attacks set. I've seen it on the ladder a couple of times, pretty underwhelming tbh. Offensive cune is not comparable at all to bulky cm slowbro though, they play completely different, and Milotic doesnt even have cm so how is that competition.
 
Snunch said:
Yeah unless I really need the fighting resist, Milotic is my bulky water of choice. It's pretty sad how many people use bulky suicune instead; against a good player, a sleeping suicune is as good as a dead suicune. Probably worse as it can be set up bait.
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Suicune can be a great late-game cleaner, though, because if you remove the right counters and get a Calm Mind up, Suicune can afford to sleep. Most teams have only one or two setup sweepers (FB has 4-6 usually :D) so it's not exactly unfeasible to set up a sweep for it. Unlike Milotic, you need a lot of team support though. For instance, I'd never run it without Heal Bell support and probably a Choice Scarf user who can switch into setup attempts.

Admittedly, my experience with it is from before damaging weather was everywhere, and Leftovers negation really bones it, especially in comparison to Milotic.
 
Okay, I've been playing around with Alakazam a little and I have to say/hype on thing:

Leading with Alakazam is amazing.

The set is Psychic/Shadow Ball/Focus Blast with Life Orb and Substitute as the fourth move. Most people lead with a hazard Pokemon like Roserade or a weather mon like Abomasnow or something, and most Pokemon like that Alakazam will OHKO. Since Zam outright OHKOs so many Pokemon and because the opponent will want to put their momentum grabber first, leading with Alakazam immediately puts the opponent up a creek without a paddle. If you have the lead advantage, immediately use Substitute. The opponent will probably switch to a resist, but since Zam has amaxing three-move coverage, you'll probably 2KO. At this point, the opponent will not be able to defeat Alakazam without losing one Pokemon. Once you claim your sacrifice do not get rid of ALakazam unless it's to a Pursuiter (because you have to).

Alakazam can sweep both early game and late game in the same battle because it can't be "worn down" like a traditional sweeper. Even at 14% or so after taking a hit Alakazam is still fit to sweep because the opponent will either have to survive a 369 Special Attack Life Orb boosted attack and hit back, or have more than 372 Speed. Not many Pokemon at the end of the game can do either of those, so feel free to Alakarape them.

Notes:
1. If the opponent has a Krookodile, don't lead with Alakazam unless it's the only thing that can beat your opponent's most probable lead
2. People love leading with Deoxys-D and spending the first turn Stealth Rocking. Punish them with a Substitute and Shadow Ball 2KO.
3. Don't use Focus Sash on Alakazam. You miss out on a lot without Life Orb
4. Don't use Grass Knot. Sub+3 attacks all the way.
5. Get good at predicting leads. If the opponent has a fast Pursuiter they will probably save it to revenge Alakazam. Try to maintain a Substitute if you can.


on Stoutland

I use Stoutland on my main team and I think I can say with a little knowledge that it's not broken. It cannot break Rock types and some Steel types. It needs a lot of support to beat its counters, and if you can sweep with Stoutland then it's probably because you simply outplayed your opponent. It cannot break Rhyperior, Empoleon, and has a hard time with Registeel. The LO set is sorely lacking in power, while the CB set leaves you open to be set up on (though that's not a huge problem). It's a little like Excadrill in OU in that it's going to outspeed everything, but not nearly as powerful as Excadrill in OU and has a pretty crappy single STAB.

I don't want to sound like I'm saying Stoutland is bad, as it's a wonderful Pokemon because it outspeeds just about everything at +1 and still a lot of things at +2; however, you're not going to sweep with it unless you can do something about its counters. It needs to be carefully played around to beat, though. LO Stoutland doesn't OHKO a lot of things and can be worn down easily, while CB Stoutland OHKOs a lot more but is potentially setup bait after one kill. Normal STAB isn't great in a tier with so many Ghosts, Rocks, and Steels. Just pack a Spiritomb, Sableye, or Rhyperior and you won't have a lot of trouble with Stoutland as long as you keep them above 50%.


I think this Senate will need to vote on Hippowdon. It's just such a good Pokemon. Other than that, I don't think there are really any suspects besides Hippowdon and maybe Alakazam.
 
Breludicolo said:
I'm going to ask this here:

Is stoutland broken?
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I don't know about that, but it is certainly very powerful. Without a rock/ghost/steel, it's really hard to deal with CBRetaliate, which pretty much crumples most of the tier. Rhyperior is the best answer to it, while also being a nice check to offensive fires. Personally, I think Stoutland is one of the Top 5 Pokemon in the tier, but I'm not sure if it is overpowered,
 
I think it's Hippowdon. Every match I watch has Sand in it. Over half of my opponents are using Sand. And Hippwdon flat out walls most of our physical attackers. Stoutland is very good at what he does, but he has some viable counters. If you relegated Sand back to Hippopotas, it would once again become a trade-off: Stoutland + a powerful weather effect in exchange for a nigh-useless Pokemon (he has good defense at least, but he honestly doesn't counter anything).

The only problem I can make out with Stoutland is that nothing is allowed to sweep anymore unless it's a defensive booster. Azelf uses Nasty Plot? Who cares, Stoutland will kill it, and Pursuit on top of that. I wouldn't say he's unfair, he just really forces you to change how you approach offense playstyles in this game.

Oh, and Empoleon is not a counter. Stoutland can ram right through him with Return unless Scald burns. Then there's Wild Charge.
 
Breludicolo said:
I'm going to ask this here:

Is stoutland broken?
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No. Stoutland has always been able to rip holes in the presence of sand. Being a normal type he still has to break through rock/steel/ghost types. People enjoy the CB set so by planning accordingly he can be dealt with (if you built a team with this threat in mind). He is hazard weak and still has to deal with priority. Plus, with the viability of hail and stand alone rain his speed advantage can be taken away. A top threat in the metagame but not broken.
 
He is hazard weak
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still has to deal with priority
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Being a normal type he still has to break through ghost types.
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I can agree with the sentiment of Stoutland not being broken for now (at least until we address Hippow), but these points just don't make any sense. Taking neutral damage from SR is not "hazards weak". Mach Punch doesn't qualify for "priority weak" either when we're operating on 85/90 physical bulk and only one Pokemon in UU can run that move effectively (one that's normally running Intimidate instead). Our most popular Ghost types now cannot take a single Crunch to save their lives.

If we wanted to dig down into RU/NU, Stoutland would probably have a lot of counters. But at the end of the day, he checks offense and cleans up really, really well. I can see why people would compare him to Excadrill; there's not much you can do about him when he's alive and your 1-2 checks aren't.
 
Soutland is pretty sexy!

It 2hkos Slowbro (and other bulky waters) and 3hko's defensive Hitmontop (after intimmidate) That makes it awesome because those Pokemon are common, and alot of people solely rely on them for physical walls, but you need a good Steel-type to consistently switch in to Stoutland. I wouldn't call it a broken sweeper though, but it's great at paving the way for the likes of Alakazam. Also pursuit is awesome for opposing Alakazam. Go to Sableye or something, then Stoutland on the Shadow Ball and it's dead
 
SJCrew said:
I can agree with the sentiment of Stoutland not being broken for now (at least until we address Hippow), but these points just don't make any sense. Taking neutral damage from SR is not "hazards weak". Mach Punch doesn't qualify for "priority weak" either when we're operating on 85/90 physical bulk and only one Pokemon in UU can run that move effectively (one that's normally running Intimidate instead). Our most popular Ghost types now cannot take a single Crunch to save their lives.

If we wanted to dig down into RU/NU, Stoutland would probably have a lot of counters. But at the end of the day, he checks offense and cleans up really, really well. I can see why people would compare him to Excadrill; there's not much you can do about him when he's alive and your 1-2 checks aren't.
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OK... I made a mistake with some phrasing. Lets try again.

1. He is vulnerable to all forms of hazards.

2. I didnt say he was "priority weak". He has to deal with priority. If I'm not mistaken priority has always been a way to deal with faster threats. Stoutland is not frail as a twig. I get that. But, being vulnerable to all hazards gives a player options when facing stoutland.

3. Why am I switching a ghost type into crunch? That would only happen if my opponent out predicts me. If I can be out predicted than so can he. If my team has a steel type, ghost type, and rock type then that CB stoutland can be played around. Same is said with 2 out of the 3 types on a team.
 
After extensivly using Stoutland, I can see how he'd be broken. Pretty much he can revenge almost ebery offensive threat and sweep on a dime. He's also got a wide enough movepool and good bulk for a sweeper.
 
Average strength normal-type with terrible coverage moves.......broken? Not a chance. With a Snorlax so present in the tier, if you don't have something to take a Normal-type attack then you're just ignoring your surroundings. No Froslass, Mismagius, and Chandelure are NOT going to cut it. Something like Regirock, Rhyperior, Bisharp etc.
 
I've played several Sand teams, and maybe it's because I'm (ab)using Hail, but I don't think Sand is broken at all. Stoutland is very dependant on prediction, can be dealt with by Mach Punch from Hitmontop (Both sets deal with it very well if you keep them healthy) or bulky physical mons with strong STAB attacks like Hydro Pump Empoleon. Yes, Hippowdon is a great physical wall, but it is vulnerable to being 2HKOd or OHKOd by several special attackers like Alakazam, Chandelure, Empoleon, Abomasnow, Suicune, Azelf, etc. It does provide a formidable partner to the most broken Pokemon in UU, though: Chansey. That's where I think the problem is. Yes, I can throw down a Hydro Pump and KO Hippo, but that's free switch-in for Chansey. I can bring in Machamp, but then I get Toxiced and my opponent just goes right back to Hippo to take the hit. Then factor in entry hazards, SS damage and Toxic damage on my team while my opponent does this. I hate Chansey in this metagame, as it forms too potent of a stall core with the myriad of physical walls in UU. Chansey+Slowbro, Chansey+Hippo, Chansey+Deoxys-D. It's awful. It can switch in on a huge amount of the metagame, and then do whatever it wants. It really needs to go. That's my two-cents.
 
Choice Band Sawsbuck is a monster. It tears stuff up. Jolly lets you beat everything sitting below 95 base Speed, and you ave 448 Attack to work off of with Double Edge 2HKOing everything that doesn't resist it and Horn Leech cleaning up any Rock-types that decide to get sassy. Jump Kick smacks around Steels and Megahorn is a solid filler for nailing Grass-types on the switch without recoiling. God help the opponent if you get a Sap Sipper boost to boot. The only thing that really troubles it is Chandelure, but with Stealth Rock down it will be felled quickly by a couple CB Horn Leeches. Seriously, if you're looking for a Grass-type / general hole puncher, try out CB Sawsbuck.
 
If I'm not mistaken priority has always been a way to deal with faster threats.
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It is one way, yes, but if you don't apply it in context, it means just about as 'Excadrill dies to Surf'.

Off the top of my head, three Pokemon in UU commonly use powerful priority attacks: Hitmontop, Bisharp and Arcanine. Azumarrill is not at all common, but for completion's sake, I'll add that too.

LO Hitmontop's Mach Punch: 78.8% - 92.9%
Bisharp's Sucker Punch: 49% - 58%
CB Arcanine's Extremespeed: 44.9% - 52.9%
CB Azumarill's Aqua Jet: 41.7% - 49.4%

I don't know about you, but these calculations certainly aren't instilling me with a ray of hope. The only two Pokemon on this list with any true ability to threaten Stoutland are Hitmontop and Bisharp. Nevermind the fact that none of these bar Bisharp can switch in - Stoutland is just too bulky for priority to be any sort of credible argument against him.

Why am I switching a ghost type into crunch?
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Because the Pokemon in is going to die to Return. Are you going to let it or are you going to try and get a check in to preserve it? We don't even have to get into the hypotheticals - Ghosts don't beat Stoutland. Crunch at least 2HKOs every relevant Ghost in the metagame. If you're unfortunate enough to run into the odd player running LO, then they're not even checks, they're just death fodder.
 
Wait what? Stoutland broken? Good god what exactly if anything is broken about it, only thing it does that is remotely close is jack up the speed tiers in UU to absurd levels and that is more a result of Hippo who as I and many have pointed out already renders virtually all physical offense worthless. So if anything the obvious broken factor would be Hippo in this scenario since its doing a hell lot more defensively, offensively and support wise.

I am not seeing the same kind of offensive devstation from Stoutland's prescence as I ever recall from Kyurem, Staraptor or I have recently seen from Machamp, Darmanitarn or Chandelure, its simply a straight up cleanup that just happens to be too fast.

@Bad Ass
I think LO is better tbh. Being locked into a move really hurts Sawsbuck when his biggest advantage is his massive coverage and hardly anyone can boast a good STAB drain move like Horn Leech or Leech Seed to abuse this fact with. Also 95 speed is terrible for a plain sweeper in UU, don't kid yourself but thankfully for Sawsbuck its not completely limited to it, its actually a fantastic support Pokemon in its own right just it sweeps better.
 
SJCrew said:
It is one way, yes, but if you don't apply it in context, it means just about as 'Excadrill dies to Surf'.

Off the top of my head, three Pokemon in UU commonly use powerful priority attacks: Hitmontop, Bisharp and Arcanine. Azumarrill is not at all common, but for completion's sake, I'll add that too.

LO Hitmontop's Mach Punch: 78.8% - 92.9%
Bisharp's Sucker Punch: 49% - 58%
CB Arcanine's Extremespeed: 44.9% - 52.9%
CB Azumarill's Aqua Jet: 41.7% - 49.4%

I don't know about you, but these calculations certainly aren't instilling me with a ray of hope. The only two Pokemon on this list with any true ability to threaten Stoutland are Hitmontop and Bisharp. Nevermind the fact that none of these bar Bisharp can switch in - Stoutland is just too bulky for priority to be any sort of credible argument against him.
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So because these don't OHKO they arent credible? OPTIONS. I'm trying to stress options to outplaying stoutland. If you see stoutland in team preview you know with SR you can kill him with priority @50%. That sounds like a crap plan to you and if that is the best you've got against stoutland your team probably has other issues but that player can then formulate a plan. If my team has priority + anything else that gives stoutland troubles I'm looking that much better. See where I'm going? All of these things compound because of what I think stoutlands biggest issue is. He is a choicelocked physical attacker.

Because the Pokemon in is going to die to Return. Are you going to let it or are you going to try and get a check in to preserve it? We don't even have to get into the
hypotheticals - Ghosts don't beat Stoutland. Crunch at least 2HKOs every relevant Ghost in the metagame. If you're unfortunate enough to run into the odd player running LO, then they're not even checks, they're just death fodder.
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I didnt say ghosts beat stoutland. Ghost typing gives immunity to his most powerful attack. As I said in my earlier posts, you can play around CB stoutland because his coverage moves are not great. If you see your opponent has a ghost and a rock type are you going to just use frustration right away? You could use crunch but then a bulky water /anything can come in.What if its a rock/ground type? Then wild charge doesnt seem like a good idea to catch the bulky water. If the stoutland player makes a mistake that can be the edge the opponent needs to win.

Maybe I'm not expressing myself vary well. I believe stoutland is not broken because he can be outplayed. There are few pokemon that 100% counter him but that isn't an issue in my eyes because smart play can beat him. There are options to deal with him throughout the course of a battle. As it was said earlier in the thread, if you lose to a stoutland player you likely got outplayed.

EDIT: And dont get me started on how in one turn a weather change takes away his speed advantage. For all the talk about sand being everywhere I dont see a lot of people taking strides to pack just one weather move.
 
I still don't think Stoutland is broken but not every Stoutland is CB. All of your arguments are based on the fact that he only has one attack. In any event, prediction is not a valid argument against being broken while simply having the coverage move is a valid argument for it.
 
I've started using stoutland more and more and during a ladder run with LO stoutland i have to say it has performed admirably. There are very few times where i had wished for the power that CB provides or the lack of recoil. Granted, no stoutland is really broken per se, it's just that Hippowdon is such a great user of sandstorm.
 
Seeing as though we're on the subject of sand.....How's crustle been doing?

I'm looking for a good set for him that could work. He has hone claws and shell smash to work with, not to mention X-scizzor, Stone Edge, Earthquake, night slash, shadow claw, and rock blast to use for attacking. What would be a good set for him?
 
crustle is not too great, IMO. too easy to wall with base 95 attack. considering the popularity of hippowdon, I don't think it'd do all that well. then again, who knows?

I find it mildly entertaining that out of all the new drops to UU this round, Hippo makes the greatest mark in the end.

(here's hoping for NU Whimsicott!)
 
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