WHAT!?!?! HIPPOWDON?!?!? BANNED? This is truly an atrocity. Hippowdon cannot function without proper support. He is a facilitator for Stoutland, but when my sandstorm team gets a sweep it is usually from Rhyperior or Alakazam. Hippowdon only has mediocre attack because it is usually uninvested. Bulky flying types like Sigilyph can wall it with ease, and Siliglyph can give it a crippling burn. What about Roserade and Xatu? Hippowdon can't do shit to either of them. (Most do not run Stone Edge). I cannot believe that we will now allow Abomasnow and Walrein to run rampant throughout the metagame. My goodness. Getting rid of Suspect Test was a dumb idea.
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np: UU Stage 3 - We Are The Champions
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Wut??
You can read any of the paragraphs about why Hippowdon being banned. We're not saying Hippowdon can wall the metagame OR kill the metagame, and if you evaluate Hippowdon without regarding the support it gives you really don't know what you're talking about. Hippowdon has tons of counters, but it was banned because of the SUPPORT it gives to Pokemon like STOUTLAND. Hippowdon makes it very, very hard to win without using Sand, and that's why it's gone. Hippowson does tons of damage to Roserade btw...
And Abomasnow and Walrein are not going to dominate the metagame, lol. In the previous metagame Hail was everywhere and Walrein had, oh, let's see...1.9% usage and was in the hmm, let's see...NeverUsed tier.
And if we had a Suspect Test for Hippowdon it almost undoubtedly would have gotten banned as well, along with Alakazam and probably SmashPass because the average Smogoner has an addiction to banning SmashPass.
Bottom Line: You have to look at what Hippowdon DOES TO THE METAGAME to understand why it was banned.
Also, look at SJcrew's post at the top of this page. It's really, really good.
Two months is not enough for you? If you were out there grinding it out with us, I would think that you'd have a more solid opinion on the matter other than "There's a check here and there...that might die anyway." The server's probably not going to be updated for a bit, so get some PT in while you still can and confirm your own convictions that way. The official standing is pretty set in stone at this point.
Seriously, lets NOT ban Abomasnow. By all means, lets all ban Froslass if we really feel she's that big of a deal. But Abomasnow? He sets up a fairly useless weather and has very mediocre stats himself. Hippowdon could wall every physical attacker in the tier, but what can Abomasnow do? Wall some bulky waters? Roserade can do that just the same, except she doesn't fear a burn and can set up spikes. Hmm, what else... Nothing. He also has a record-setting 7 crippling weaknesses. Banning him would be completely absurd.
What'll probably get banned is Snow Cloak and Sand Veil which will do absolutely nothing. Hopefully we ban Froslass (if anything, we'll have to see how the Hippoless metagame plays out first) or nothing at all. I know I'm never going to vote for a non-broken ability like Snow Cloak to go to BL.
What makes Hippodown so much better than Eviolite Hippopotas? It gets Roar, Slack Off and can afford to run Toxic over EQ. Is leftovers really enough to make a balanced pokemon OP?
I think the real problem here is Stoutland (and Spikes, but let's get this out of the way first). Being able to outspeed almost every scarfer and 2KO almost every mon is just too much.
EDIT: Sand Veil+ Sandstorm and Snow Cloak + Hail are simply uncompetetive. If Brightpowder is banned, I can't see why these shouldn't.
EDIT2: Why does fatty always make the best posts
I think the real problem here is Stoutland (and Spikes, but let's get this out of the way first). Being able to outspeed almost every scarfer and 2KO almost every mon is just too much.
EDIT: Sand Veil+ Sandstorm and Snow Cloak + Hail are simply uncompetetive. If Brightpowder is banned, I can't see why these shouldn't.
EDIT2: Why does fatty always make the best posts
No! Don't take my baby away from me!
Roserade can outspeed and KO Physically Defensive Hippowdon with Leaf Storm. Stoutland is walled by many, many Pokémon. A choice banded Pokémon is incredibly predictable. How about Cobalion and Rhyperior walling Stoutland's ass off? Aggron is a Pokémon that I don't see very much in UU, and it's Double Double Double Weaknesses (It's Super Effective!) make it easy to kill. (Got Earthquake? Yes.) Don't try to tell me that Cradily can tank any hit because of Hippowdon, becuase it can't. I think a perfect UU metagame has just been disrupted. My goodness, I just am not seeing the logic that we can just ban other Pokémon if this ban makes them broken. That kind of logic gets us nowhere. A ban fest is not what the majority of battlers want in UU. (I am not saying that one ban is a ban fest, so before eight people comment that, read the parentheses.) Please reunite Hippowdon with its correct tier.
Leftovers really starts to push Hippo over the edge. That, and Hippo has just enough bulk to beat out common Pokemon. If Hippo had about 5 less base Defense, it might have stayed. Hippo doesn't want to run Toxic over EQ, because any good wall wants one attacking move. It's why Skarmory runs Brave Bird instead of Taunt or Stealth Rock, and it's why Blissey runs Seismic Toss instead of Heal Bell.
Stoutland won't be a problem anymore because Hail is going to rise and Rain Dance will be viable with Tornadus, making Sand much harder (but still possible) to play.
LonelyNess told me about a bread and butter UU team before thanksgiving that was pretty much unbeatable when you play right. Any team with Hippo, Stoutland, Roserade, Alakazam and a bulky Water could beat any UU team out there.
My personal team was Hippowdon, Roserade, Stoutland, Blastoise, Flygon and Alakazam. After three test battles on the ladder it didn't take long for me to start 5-0'ing and 6-0'ing opponents. So I completely agree that Hippo was a major part in why this team was so successful. I also never played UU until 6 days ago anyways.
Now on another note for the change in the UU meta. What will become of hail? Will Alakazam also take the trip to the land of BL?
My personal team was Hippowdon, Roserade, Stoutland, Blastoise, Flygon and Alakazam. After three test battles on the ladder it didn't take long for me to start 5-0'ing and 6-0'ing opponents. So I completely agree that Hippo was a major part in why this team was so successful. I also never played UU until 6 days ago anyways.
Now on another note for the change in the UU meta. What will become of hail? Will Alakazam also take the trip to the land of BL?
because hippowdon is bulkier before leftovers is factored in, has an offensive precense, and actually has leftovers.
i only said we could ban abomasnow if necessary. even with hippo gone it is still not the same metagame as it was before the 5 pokes dropped down to UU.
also hail is not useless when its the only weather. full accuracy blizzard, negating hail damage, and snow cloak are very good things to have. he can subseed to a much greater effect than roserade with hail causing more residual damage. the number of weaknesses something has also should have no effect on whether something should be banned.
I'm pretty sure Stallrein will become the super troll that he was in 4th Gen with proper support from teammates (and abomasnow, ofc). But let's not ignore that Hippo Jr. isn't 100% useless, but the entire strategy of sand will be drastically different than what we knew of it as of today.
Aboma will definitely skyrocket in usage because of him becoming a major supporter like what Hippo was. He won't contribute in the same exact way as Hippo did but I'm sure we're still not going to like him a week from now.
Aboma will definitely skyrocket in usage because of him becoming a major supporter like what Hippo was. He won't contribute in the same exact way as Hippo did but I'm sure we're still not going to like him a week from now.
Yes, it would probably be more difficult to find a Pokemon that I have used in which I haven't beaten Hippowdon with. I mean 2 Stealth Rock switch ins from Swellow w/ Endeavor + Facade = dead Hippowdon.
So lets say I was in need to take a risk and use Swords Dance on the switch instead of just bash Hippowdon in the face with a LO CC and then guarantee the OHKO next switch-in, and I'm not using Iron Head (which I usually use...). Do you Roar or do you Earthquake? If you Roar, I could have used CC and dealt nearly unrecoverable damage to you. Or I could have got Roared out. If you Earthquake, I could have Swords Danced and then forced you to take a bad gamble or switch out. I'd personally always Earthquake, because at least you weaken Stoutland's counter. Either way, it's a 50/50 if you want to consider both of those moves. Do you consider 50% reliable? I don't. This is kind of pointless, all I'm proving is that a stupid Cobalion user can beat a "smart" Hippowdon user roughly half of the time.
Ironic then, that you suggested Heracross is not a good Pokemon against Stoutland. If you're locking yourself into Pursuit, you can say goodbye to Hippowdon because you can't have used Rapid Spin yet since you just Pursuited the Ghost. Not to mention that most Spinblockers can actually take a Pursuit and cripple or kill Stoutland (Chandelure can WoW / Fire Blast, Froslass can add more Spikes, Pain Split, then Ice Beam, Mismagius can WoW, Spiritomb lol's at the thought of Pursuit).SJCrew said:
And yea, three layers of Spikes takes three turns. However, as you so conveniently disregarded here, I have shown with calculations, all you need is one layer. That means you only need one turn of set up. Same as Stealth Rock. And against a Sandstorm team, I'd almost always pick Spikes over Stealth Rock if I had one turn.
Spikes helps Stoutland like they do any sweeper. But it still doesn't help it KO its checks before its checks destroy Hippowdon and then proceed to destroy the rest of your team simply because those checks are far more dangerous than Stoutland. They have impressive attack stats with impressive coverage compared to Stoutland's average attack stat with horrible coverage. I cannot count the amount of times that I have just switched to Froslass and used Spikes, letting Stoutland to switch in and Pursuit while I lay another layer of Spikes and Pain Split him and severely limit his amount of switch-ins, only to go to Rhyperior after and Earthquake vs a completely neutered Hippowdon who 100% can't take 2 Earthquakes with 2 layers of Spikes (even without Stealth Rock).
So you can go ahead and Spin after that, lol. Do you think Rhyperior is that concerned about Spikes considering he easily OHKOes Roserade, Milotic, etc without Spikes?
Except that most physical attackers aren't one-trick ponies like you suggest. They either hit hard as fuck or can cripple you another way, such as setting up Stealth Rock, Rapid Spinning, or using Toxic.SJCrew said:
Rapid Spinners are unreliable at best against a good offensive / balance team. If they do get Rapid Spin off it's because of severe outplaying or it's too late for the opponent to care since Hippowdon's gone. Ghosts are really fucking good in UU, and it's a bigger issue than Hippowdon (to say the least) in my opinion.
I'm not the one who's ignoring Sandstorm. It's what makes Hippowdon great, but it shares that characteristic with Hippopotas. You need to have the benefits of Hippowdon vs Hippopotas to be that significant that one is broken and one isn't. Considering the ease in which the conditions are made equal defensively (or are already equal) and the small examples in which the added Attack actually impacts the match, it's pretty reasonable to think that there are two valid sides to this argument.SJCrew said:
Of course you'd be happier. We'd all rather see a Vulpix than Ninetales. But is that to the point where one is broken and one isn't? It's not so much the Pokemon that's summoning the Sandstorm that I'm concerned about in either case. I mean in most matches it may as well have been a Sandshrew with Sandstream. It's the weather condition itself that's the real threat to anyone. I'm going to stand by this.SJCrew said:
We should move on though, the only thing that's going to change is that Hippopotas will be used over Hippowdon but we'll see the same complaints about Sandstorm. There's always the possibility that people will just stop using Sandstorm because of the "nerf" but we'll see. Sand Veil + Snow Cloak next up?
I plan to maintain the same stance on Abomasnow as I did on Hippowdon for all of you that are wondering, so unless someone convinces me otherwise I'm going to choose to ban Abomasnow. Although it doesn't wall an entire side of the spectrum like Hippowdon, parent weather-inducers are generally unhealthy for the tier as they substantially increase the power level of these kinds of teams. Abomasnow on a Hail team makes that team 10x better than if Snover was used, and Hail on it's own is one of the best playstyles in UU.
Sand isn't that one-dimensional.
When will the ladder changes be updated btw? I'm interested to see if I can still squeeze in a few more battles before I'm forced to permanently retire Hippowdon...
dumb question #2: will the ladder be reset due to Hippowdon's passing?
I think it would make more sense to switch in Rhyperior or something, who thoroughly walls Swellow and fits perfectly on a Sand team's offense. Harder to kill, 2HKOs everything, etc. Just one of those Rock-types we were talking about earlier who happens to be ridiculously good because of Sand and was actually seen on some pretty good Sand teams over these past couple of months. Heck, I'd say Rhyperior himself is pretty broken on Sand teams. I wonder what your plan is to stop him?
Actually, Blastoise can just spin anyway if you predicted the Ghost switch-in with Foresight. So can Hitmontop, but we can leave him off the table since he's pretty bad against Sand and Ghosts in general. There is always a way to Spin. I'm just giving you the botd in assuming you carry a decent spinblocker, since a lot of teams actually don't, or use something like Chandelure that can't actually beat spinners or Stoutland.
Assuming it switches in and attacks immediately with Rhyperior around the corner and at full health, or that Stoutland is the only Pokemon on a Sand team capable of forcing Rhyperior to come out and play, and Hippowdon is the only thing capable of switching into Rhyperior. Ok, so I have Hippowdon and Stoutland. What else do you think is on the team?
You might have an typical Sand team and its moves outlined in your head, but chances are, they're going to carry a bulky Grass, Water, or Flying-type like Shaymin or Zapdos (or both) who also want to switch in on Earthquake for free and just start setting up. Even Blastoise, for example, that spinner we were just talking about, also happens to switch in on him quite nicely and destroy him.
Who, Aggron? Registeel? Not everyone is using Rhyperior. That's why a lot of people are saying he's one of the best countermeasures to Sand in general; Rock and Steel-types in general are nowhere close to his league. When you say "they", you really mean Rhyperior, since Gligar is one of the easiest Pokemon to set up on and I haven't seen a Dusclops used to decent effect recently...or ever.
I'm glad you mentioned Froslass in specific, since I happen to use one too. If we both lead off with one, there's a 50/50 chance one of us will Taunt and win (or 100% since I use max speed and IIRC, you were pushing for a bulkier spread in C&C). Assuming I win that first Speed tie, you've already slimmed your chances of winning into nothing, since that gives me at least two free layers and limits your Rhyperior switch-ins. If not, I can just switch into something offensive that doesn't care about Ice Beam and steal momentum right off the bat.
None of those things involve Sand players playing poorly or having no teammates, as you'd like to assume, they constitute a regular match where I have access to the same tools as you do, but better offensive and defensive options across the board. If I were you, I'd just use everything you're using + Sand to make myself more effective against not only Sand teams, but all playstyles in general.
Speaking as someone who has a thorough amount of experience with Hippopotas in the past, I'm inclined to say you are wrong. Make your own Sand team this time around and tell me it isn't harder to function overall with the big tank of the dynamic duo out of commission.
Perhaps we should.
Yeah guys, I say we leave it at that. If sand is still deemed overpowering without big hippo, then we can just ban sandstorm as a whole. No harm, no foul. And if it's not, well, we obviously did something right.
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