I don't know either because you know I have Roar and just switched into Stoutland's Return to be put in range of an EQ KO. When was the last time you've seriously beaten Hippwodon with SD Cobalion? You're not gonna win that one, trust me.
Yes, it would probably be more difficult to find a Pokemon that I have used in which I haven't beaten Hippowdon with. I mean 2 Stealth Rock switch ins from Swellow w/ Endeavor + Facade = dead Hippowdon.
So lets say I was in need to take a risk and use Swords Dance on the switch instead of just bash Hippowdon in the face with a LO CC and then guarantee the OHKO next switch-in, and I'm
not using Iron Head (which I usually use...). Do you Roar or do you Earthquake? If you Roar, I could have used CC and dealt nearly unrecoverable damage to you. Or I could have got Roared out. If you Earthquake, I could have Swords Danced and then forced you to take a bad gamble or switch out. I'd personally always Earthquake, because at least you weaken Stoutland's counter. Either way, it's a 50/50 if you want to consider both of those moves. Do you consider 50% reliable? I don't. This is kind of pointless, all I'm proving is that a stupid Cobalion user can beat a "smart" Hippowdon user roughly half of the time.
SJCrew said:
However, if you're not carrying a real spinblocker or it gets Pursuited by Stoutland, it suddenly becomes very easy to get rid of those hazards. The problem with Spikes is that it requires additional turns of setup unlike Stealth Rock. That gives your opponent opportunities to spin. Spikes is a battle in and of itself. And again, assuming Spikes against Stoutland checks makes it much, much harder to win (something else people had to deal with when facing Sand). I'm really doing anti-Sand supporters a favor by not emphasizing it as much as you are.
Ironic then, that you suggested Heracross is not a good Pokemon against Stoutland. If you're locking yourself into Pursuit, you can say goodbye to Hippowdon because you can't have used Rapid Spin yet since you just Pursuited the Ghost. Not to mention that most Spinblockers can actually take a Pursuit and cripple or kill Stoutland (Chandelure can WoW / Fire Blast, Froslass can add more Spikes, Pain Split, then Ice Beam, Mismagius can WoW, Spiritomb lol's at the thought of Pursuit).
And yea, three layers of Spikes takes three turns. However, as you so conveniently disregarded here, I have shown with calculations, all you need is
one layer. That means you only need
one turn of set up. Same as Stealth Rock. And against a Sandstorm team, I'd almost always pick Spikes over Stealth Rock if I had one turn.
Spikes helps Stoutland like they do any sweeper. But it still doesn't help it KO its checks before its checks destroy Hippowdon and then proceed to destroy the rest of your team simply because those checks are far more dangerous than Stoutland. They have impressive attack stats with impressive coverage compared to Stoutland's average attack stat with horrible coverage. I cannot count the amount of times that I have just switched to Froslass and used Spikes, letting Stoutland to switch in and Pursuit while I lay another layer of Spikes and Pain Split him and severely limit his amount of switch-ins, only to go to Rhyperior after and Earthquake vs a completely neutered Hippowdon who 100% can't take 2 Earthquakes with 2 layers of Spikes (even without Stealth Rock).
So you can go ahead and Spin after that, lol. Do you think Rhyperior is that concerned about Spikes considering he easily OHKOes Roserade, Milotic, etc without Spikes?
SJCrew said:
Not when Hippowdon checks one of your physical sweepers and can simply Roar to hack up entry hazards damage on your team, weakening your Stoutland checks. I do agree that we should deliberate further on what to do about Spikes; it's not okay to have walls in the tier simply fail to do their jobs because of free, easy damage. But we do have a couple good spinners that can get rid of them, so I'd rather not crutch it as an argument if I can avoid it. The chances of a Stealth Rock user outlasting a spinner, with there being more Pokemon to set it up and requiring only one turn, are much higher, and it's a lot safer to just assume that instead of your opponent always having Froslass/Spikes Roserade/Deo-D. People are still shocked to see me use Froslass outside of Hail, for goodness' sake lol.
Except that most physical attackers aren't one-trick ponies like you suggest. They either hit hard as fuck or can cripple you another way, such as setting up Stealth Rock, Rapid Spinning, or using Toxic.
Rapid Spinners are unreliable at best against a good offensive / balance team. If they do get Rapid Spin off it's because of severe outplaying or it's too late for the opponent to care since Hippowdon's gone. Ghosts are really fucking good in UU, and it's a bigger issue than Hippowdon (to say the least) in my opinion.
SJCrew said:
Hippowdon is a team player. If you are not evaluating it by the sum of its parts as a wall and supporter, you're cutting short its capabilities as a Pokemon. Sand is what makes Stoutland what it is and Hippowdon supplies it. Stoutland would also have a lot more trouble dealing with its most popular checks without Hippowdon to bail it out. Stoutland also cannot check a large number of the tier's physical attackers and wear down special attackers simply through phazing, attacking, and hazards abuse.
I'm not the one who's ignoring Sandstorm. It's what makes Hippowdon great, but it shares that characteristic with Hippopotas. You need to have the benefits of Hippowdon vs Hippopotas to be that significant that one is broken and one isn't. Considering the ease in which the conditions are made equal defensively (or are already equal) and the small examples in which the added Attack actually impacts the match, it's pretty reasonable to think that there are two valid sides to this argument.
SJCrew said:
I'd much rather go into battle seeing the little hippo, because it means a lot more viable Stoutland checks crop up without utilizing any ulterior strategies. Spiking might not be a given, but Hippopotas being an easier to beat Pokemon than Hippowdon certainly is.
Of course you'd be happier. We'd all rather see a Vulpix than Ninetales. But is that to the point where one is broken and one isn't? It's not so much the Pokemon that's summoning the Sandstorm that I'm concerned about in either case. I mean in most matches it may as well have been a Sandshrew with Sandstream. It's the weather condition itself that's the real threat to anyone. I'm going to stand by this.
We should move on though, the only thing that's going to change is that Hippopotas will be used over Hippowdon but we'll see the same complaints about Sandstorm. There's always the possibility that people will just stop using Sandstorm because of the "nerf" but we'll see. Sand Veil + Snow Cloak next up?