Normal Arceus (Choice Specs)

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Normal Arceus

[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Judgment
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Ice Beam / Shadow Ball
move 4: Trick
item: Choice Specs
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
- Arceus can use his sizable Special Attack stat and excellent special movepool to wield Choice Specs quite effectively.
- Due to how counters to the ExtremeKiller set tend to invest all their EVs in Defense, using Choice Specs to lure them out and heavily cripple them could pave the way for another physical sweeper to sweep.
- With Specs attached, Arceus easily 2HKOs Groudon and Lugia with Judgment (or Ice Beam) after Stealth Rock, Skarmory and Steel Arceus with Fire Blast and Giratina with Ice Beam. Shadow Ball allows you to 2HKO Ghost Arceus but lose the 2HKO on Giratina.
- Even without opposing physical walls, Arceus is still a decently strong and fast attacker, and you can easily spam Judgment late-game to clean up if you need to.
- Trick allows you to cripple Special walls like Blissey when your cover is blown. Getting something locked into an attack isn't usually a bad thing anyway. If there are multiple walls on the opposing team that makes you choose between Judgment or a coverage move, you can always use Trick to get whichever that comes in, too.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
- EVs are pretty obvious, no real need to run anything else, although you can run some bulk. A Modest nature pretty much guarantees the 2HKO on Lugia with Judgment after Stealth Rock, and you don't need SR to 2HKO Giratina and Ghost Arceus with either Ice Beam or Shadow Ball, while with Timid, you do.
- Focus Blast or Grass Knot can be used to hit Rock Arceus, Dialga, Tyranitar and Terrakion, although the moves provided hit most walls for better damage. If you're running Timid, Ice Beam 2HKOs Terrakion anyway.
- Teammates are obviously Pokemon who like physical walls weakened or removed. These include Rock Polish Groudon, Rayquaza, Double Dance Terrakion, Excadrill, Garchomp, Lucario, Zekrom. Take your pick at which one fits you team the best.
- In terms of general teammates, Giratina-O and hazards definitely make Arceus' job easier. Lugia, Mewtwo, Giratina forms are great at switching into Fighting-type attacks. Ferrothorn, Forretress, Skarmory and Deoxys-S are all excellent hazard users in Ubers.
- Counters: Annoying to try and counter because of Arceus's bulk, wide coverage and Trick. Dialga is probably the best switch-in (watch out for a potential Focus Blast), and more offensive variant don't mind Trick either. Tyranitar can switch into pretty much everything (unless Arceus uses Focus Blast), and Pursuit you for decent damage. Bulky Steel-types don't mind Arceus either, although they need to watch out for Fire Blast or Trick. Bulky Fighting Arceus is pretty good as well, but it gets 2HKOed by Judgment and needs to speed-tie, and is fairly unreliable. Otherwise, prediction is the key. Over a long term, Specs Arceus isn't too big a threat since it's not sweeping too easily.

You forgot to mention Arceus's biggest counter: Tyranitar. Also when you mention Focus Blast tell that it is the only way of killing Tyranitar.
Because of this, and how Focus Blast also hits better than anything Dialga, Rock Arceus and Terakion maybe slash Focus Blast with Trick?

I partly agree with you, alexwolf.
While Tyranitar is indeed the biggest counter to this specific Arceus, and you indeed should mention it shrang, Tyranitar is VERY unlikely to stay in or switch in, due to the fear of being struck by a 2x Earthquake or 4x Brick Break.

Furai said:

I partly agree with you, alexwolf.
While Tyranitar is indeed the biggest counter to this specific Arceus, and you indeed should mention it shrang, Tyranitar is VERY unlikely to stay in or switch in, due to the fear of being struck by a 2x Earthquake or 4x Brick Break.

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True! But once the opponent gets that you run SpecsCeus, which means after the first hit you deliver, Ttar is a very likely switch in.

Also OHKOing Terakion is important, because very often it is scarfed, and after the first Ice Beam it will force you out...

I do agree with the importance of Focus Blast, but just keep in mind that according to shrang's skeleton, Ice Beam 2HKOs anyway, so Terrakion can only switch in once.

Furai said:

I do agree with the importance of Focus Blast, but just keep in mind that according to shrang's skeleton, Ice Beam 2HKOs anyway, so Terrakion can only switch in once.

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Yeah i saw that Timid SpecsCeus 2hkoes with Ice Beam, and that makes Terakion a check. But if you don't want to be forced out by Terakion before killing something, Focus Blast is a must.

I'm not too sold on this set, especially since conventional Ekiller can employ different means to get around its checks and counters - EQing on the switch to Terrakion, or just running Jolly. Power Herb for Giratina-A (I know it's not an OHKO but it's pretty damn close). Toxic for Lugia and Groudon, although I will give on Skarmory in rain; Steel, Ghost, and Rock Arceus formes with WoW being pretty much full stops to all physical Normal-Arceus.

Please provide some logs with this in action, preferably with some of the team mates you mentioned in the skeleton (Terrakion, Zekrom, RP Groudon, DD Rayquaza, etc.)

Okay, I've given Focus Blast a stronger mention in AC and Tyranitar in counters. I'm not sure about if it really deserves a slash yet, since Tyranitar really isn't much of a concern if you consider what this set is doing. Tyranitar can't stop physical sweepers at all, if anything, I'd be willing to keep Tyranitar alive so I can set up my RP Groudon, Garchomp, Excadrill, etc on it. Doing more to Terrakion is a nice incentive, and hitting Rock Arceus DEFINITELY is an incentive, although sand is up, you're probably losing to Rock Arceus anyway (70% accuracy, along with +1 SpD in the sand is going to hard to crack).

EDIT:

Poppy said:

I'm not too sold on this set, especially since conventional Ekiller can employ different means to get around its checks and counters - EQing on the switch to Terrakion, or just running Jolly. Power Herb for Giratina-A (I know it's not an OHKO but it's pretty damn close). Toxic for Lugia and Groudon, although I will give on Skarmory in rain; Steel, Ghost, and Rock Arceus formes with WoW being pretty much full stops to all physical Normal-Arceus.

Please provide some logs with this in action, preferably with some of the team mates you mentioned in the skeleton (Terrakion, Zekrom, RP Groudon, DD Rayquaza, etc.)

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Lol they sound even more gimmicky than what I have here already. ExtremeKiller cannot beat all of those Pokemon at any one time, and if even if you tried, you're losing so much coverage or power it isn't funny. Shadow Force does 68.25% - 80.56% Giratina-A, and considering that you generally don't have anything to hit it again (EQ works I guess, but I am seeing more and more Brick Break Arceuses for Ferrothorn), Giratina is just going to recover that off with Rest while you charge another one.

I will try and get logs though.

Actually, after I tested this (With your team no less), I'm going to have to say this really isn't worth it. I spoke to Jibaku about this and he was unsure about this as well. The only real thing of note that this Arceus manages to do is get the 2HKO on Groudon. After a Judgment or a Ice Beam, any decent player immediately catches on and switches out while your stuck on a resisted move while your opponent gets to set up. Trick is nice but thats really the only thing which caught my fancy.

When I used this, I just ended up using this as any other bulky Pokemon or pivot. Sadly, Normal isn't a great defensive typing anyway or offensive so you're going to have to predict like a lot of the time which is the case with most gimmicks. This probably isn't a gimmick but I probably don't think its worth a set. I'm going to test this more but leaning towards a rejection over here.

I am not sure about Specs Arceus but it didn't look too good. Trick is cool but SD Arceus sweeps so much better. Sure the main Ubers walls give it issues, but Specs Arceus is easily walled if you are stuck on the wrong move, like Ferrothorn coming in on Judgment or Kyogre eating Ice Beams all day.

Arceus is probably better off using item plates to get past the physical walls Extremekiller fails to defeat. Examples will be using Dark Arceus to smash Giratina.

Over a long term, Specs Arceus isn't too big a threat since it's not sweeping too easily.

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This is probably Specs Arceus's main problem. Kyogre can also defeat this Arceus set, since Judgment isn't 2HKOing max HP Kyogre.

trickroom said:

I am not sure about Specs Arceus but it didn't look too good. Trick is cool but SD Arceus sweeps so much better. Sure the main Ubers walls give it issues, but Specs Arceus is easily walled if you are stuck on the wrong move, like Ferrothorn coming in on Judgment or Kyogre eating Ice Beams all day.

Arceus is probably better off using item plates to get past the physical walls Extremekiller fails to defeat. Examples will be using Dark Arceus to smash Giratina.



This is probably Specs Arceus's main problem. Kyogre can also defeat this Arceus set, since Judgment isn't 2HKOing max HP Kyogre.

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The point isn't to sweep with Arceus though. He's supposed to be used as a lure and that should be its main objective. With walls weakened significantly, stuff like Double Dance Terrakion and other physical attackers can sweep more easily. Obviously, you can use other plates to defeat said walls, but they're not going to switch in on you any more. No Giratina or Lugia will ever switch into Dark Arceus unless they're deliberately trying to lose. Getting stuck on the wrong move sucks, but that's what prediction is for, I guess. You could even double switch the first time to see what your opponent's reaction to Normal Arceus is, and then nail it on the next switch-in. He's not a long term threat, but he's not supposed to be.

As a lure however, what does it really have over Rayquaza? Rayquaza's offenses are probably just about the same with a Life Orb (probably slightly higher) but definitely so when you consider it's hyper powered wall breaking moves like Outrage and Draco Meteor. Everything this variant of Arceus is trying to do is better accomplished my Rayquaza.

alex 67 said:

As a lure however, what does it really have over Rayquaza? Rayquaza's offenses are probably just about the same with a Life Orb (probably slightly higher) but definitely so when you consider it's hyper powered wall breaking moves like Outrage and Draco Meteor. Everything this variant of Arceus is trying to do is better accomplished my Rayquaza.

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Its not really fair to compare it with Rayquaza since Arceus is significantly different from Rayquaza due to its better 120 base speed and far superior bulk. The greatest differentiating factor would be Arceus's speed which would Rayquaza die for. This is really a tricky one. I'm going to give this arceus one more spin and see if it works.

There's also the fact that Rayquaza isn't as good as a lure. Groudon should generally be more careful about switching into Ray in fear of taking a Draco Meteor to the face. Giratina would never switch into Ray unless it's stupid, and Ray fails to beat Lugia most of the time. This is without taking about Arceus' superior bulk and Speed, access to Trick and lack of Stealth Rock weakness.

This set looks heavily based on proper and almost perfect prediction (impossible) and thats something that is very unreliable.

And honestly Groudon and Lugia are almost never the first switch-in into Normal-Arceus. Defensive stallteams almost always carry either Giratina or Skarmory or Toxic Forretress to deal with SD-Ceus whereas offensive Teams just try to hit it as hard as they can.

Problem is that one misprediction can pave the way for your opponents sweeper or hazardsetter. Looks like a high risk, high reward set - not exactly what i prefer but maybe some do?

Rayquaza might have lower speed but its harder to maneuver around it because one misprediction doesnt automatically give your opponent the advantage. And Ray has X-Speed anyways....

tl;dr: Not a fan.

If your opponent's entire team is stall, you're probably better off just Tricking right off the bat. Getting ANYTHING on a stall team Tricked is good. The only Scarfers they might have are Palkia and Zekrom, which would never switch into Normal Arceus anyway.

I have never used/seen anyone use this set, but maybe life orb could be better so you won't have to predict as much (with recover or even calm mind over trick?)

The Stealth Rock weakness on Ray is quite null when you consider it's immune to spikes and Toxic Spikes, which when considering the popularity of Ferrothorn, means Arceus will often be taking the same amount of damage. Groudon as a main Extremekiller check is quite iffy IMO with its lack of recovery and the fact it loses one on one, meaning, that will likely not be the initial switch in you'd like to surprise. Ghostceus, and Steelceus check both this and Extremekiller easily enough, only needing to watch a little for coverage moves and Steelceus can take a Fire Blast in the rain reasonably. Really the inability to switch moves, and not being able to muscle through anything with a super powered attack like Kyogre, Reshiram, Palkia, and even Dialga is what kills this set. You don't see Choice Specs Darkrai or Shaymin-S for a reason, which is because they're better at other roles just like Arceus.

I've talked with a few people about this set, and I must say that while the idea behind it is quite creative, there are flaws that don't go unnoticed

- It lacks utility and offense. Let's face it - Arceus is usually one of these two - whether it may be countering specific threats, filling gaps in your team, or outright dominating them with its sheer sweeping power. Since you can only use one Arceus per team and there are 17 formes to use (16 if you dont count Bug, which is absolutely the most trash Arceus forme), it's extremely important that you make most use of its strongest qualities. Specsceus baits Groudon, Giratina, and Lugia, sure, but that's about it. If you really need to dispose of Groudon / Skarmory you can run LO Overheat on the Extremekiller set with some SA investment for massive damage anyways. Giratina and Lugia are very tanky and if you don't get a kill / Trick with this (or otherwise put them into hazard kill range), your surprise is ruined and the opponent will take advantage of your not-so-strong choiced attacks. Crippling them alone may not be enough since they can heal it all back. Not to mention, Giratina resists two of your moves.

- Normal STAB is terrible and even moreso if Choiced. You'll end up using your other moves more than Judgment and they need to be SE to actually deal significant damage (well...sun boosted Fire Blast hurts neutrals I guess). Which means a mispredict will hurt you much more than say...if you hit their Steel with Dialga's Specs Draco Meteor.

Notable counters you missed: Ghost Arceus (not in sun), Heatran, Rock Arceus. Terrakion is also an annoying check.

tl;dr - Lacks sustain, lacks power, lacks utility, relies too much on prediction and baiting and gets punished too badly if it mispredicts. Not a fan.

Jibaku summarized Specs Arceus's horrible disadvantages. Sorry bro.

I actually did tried this myself, but Specs Arceus was pretty worthless when I used it outside of surprising certain threats with a decently powerful Fire Blast in the sun. Judgment is easily taken advantaged of, such as by Dialga, Ferrothorn or Giratina.

QC REJECTED 1/3

Like I posted earlier, I tried this on several teams. While getting off a Trick was pretty cool, it left you horribly weak and unable to do anything of note. Secondly, mispredicting a certain switch-in hurts really really badly such if you choose Fire Blast and something like a Palkia comes in. The initial suprise factor also wears off really quickly and the opponentcan switch right back out just as well. However, to me the major flaw was that Specs Arceus was far too reliant on prediction to succeed.

Not a gimmick but not worthy of a set of its own either. Its getting a OO mention in the main analysis.

QC Rejected 2/3