Implications of Sandstorm discussion.

Hipmonlee · Apr 11, 2007

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=382868&postcount=1065

Team Rocket Elite said:
Sandstorm rises the Special Defense of Rock type Pokemon by 1.5x while Sandstorm is going.

Lv100 Rampardos - 137 SpDef
Lv100 Espeon - 394 SpAtk

Sandstorm is blowing.

Espeon used Psychic on Rampardos. 211 damage.
Expected damage: 280-329
Expected damage with 1.5x Special Defense: 187-220

Uses 6 X Special Defense on Rampardos.

Espeon used Psychic on Rampardos. 54 damage.
Expected damage: 71-84
Expected damage with 1.5x Special Defense: 48-57

So basicly Tyranitar comes in with an auto 1.5x Special Defense boost and comes pretty close to surviving a non-CG Focus Bomb from Alakazam just by maxing out HP. That'll be fun.

So TTar has the equivalent of 674 base stat total, Rhyperior is less than weak to special water attacks, and Shuckle still sucks.

Anyway, this topic is moslty to keep strategy discussion (and "crikey") posts out of the unanswered questions topic.

Have a nice day.

Stallion · Apr 11, 2007

GF really fucked up this time. If the boost was given to Ice Pokemon in Hail then i would have been really happy, ecstatic even. Instead they give arguably the most broken type, and arguably the 2 most broken pokemon in the metagame a massive boost. I believe that in the beginning that Ttar shouuld be tried in standard, but in the end it will get its fat ass banned to uber. Just a quick question 2 check, wat is Ttar's base Sp. D now??

Hipmonlee · Apr 11, 2007

Well it depends on EVs.. With max it has the equivalent stat of a base 174 with min it is 159.

Have a nice day.

toy · Apr 11, 2007

subpunchtar just got safer behind its sub.

Lateralus · Apr 11, 2007

Cough*Uber*Cough

X-Act · Apr 11, 2007

First of all, kudos to TRE for this discovery.

Well, I really don't know why people are overreacting. If Tyranitar is deemed to be too good for OU, then it can always go to the uber tier. If that would happen, then Rhyperior needn't go to uber imo, since you'd need to 'waste' one turn to setup the Sandstorm.

It would be a good thing to move Tyranitar to uber, too, seeing as it seemed to be already a difficult task to counter CBTar even before this discovery.

But I'm not competent enough to decide on Tyranitar's final tier placing.

EDIT: Actually Hippowdon could still setup the Sandstorm for Rhyperior... hmm.

Little Green Yoda · Apr 11, 2007

Holy fuck, that's crazy if that's true. T-tar totally shits on Water types now. =(

Surf from a 266 SA Cune will only 2HKO min HP, 0 SD EV Tar if it gets max damage both times.

plasma · Apr 11, 2007

Well, people were complaining that they couldn't find a Special Wall besides Blissey, so here's Tyranitar to take that up for them. Except, instead of just Walling with the euqivalent of 150 base Sp Def (!), it also mauls a ton of things to death.

Does this also work for Ground pokemon? It's a shame Hippowdon isn't Rock type.

Synesthetic · Apr 11, 2007

Does this also work for Ground pokemon? It's a shame Hippowdon isn't Rock type.

No; TRE stated that Sandstorm only boosts the SpDef of Rock types.

Team Rocket Elite · Apr 11, 2007

Only applies to Rock Pokemon. Not Ground or Steel Pokemon.

Hekatoncheir · Apr 11, 2007

Garchomp's reign of terror has ended and Tyranitar's has just started D:

Phuquoph · Apr 11, 2007

Outside of the obvious SandStreamers, can anyone see the actual move SandStorm being used for defensive purposes now?

I always thought the weather moves themselves were a bit underrated, this might see them get more use.

Ayrton.nS) · Apr 11, 2007

Yeah this is a weird / scary change. But tbh the only problem I have with it is that Ttar gives a permanent sandstorm. If we just shove Ttar into Ubers then I think we have quite a nice new bit of strategy to consider. Ayrton sent out Relicanth!

plasma · Apr 11, 2007

Yeah, Ttar is the only problem here.
Although... Probopass learns Sandstorm and that gives him a monster 225 base Special Defense.

Deck Knight · Apr 11, 2007

In other news, Probopass got a whole hell of a lot FATTER.

Lesse:

252 HP/252 Def/4 SD Bold =

324 HP/428 Def/505 SD in Sandstorm.

Hiya Uber Shucks.

See the same with Aggron and Bastiodon with UU and NU respectively.

Pressuredactyl is now even more gay:

144 HP/148 Def/216 Speed

337 HP/203 Def/279 SD.

CM Lunatone becomes yet more unkillable, ReflectRox also becomes ass.

Kabutops becomes a lot more dangerous, being able to ward off Water attacks much more effectively.

See the same for Relicanth.

TTar + Rock Plate Arceus becomes viable in Ubers lol.

X-Act · Apr 11, 2007

Even if Tyranitar is 'shoved to uber', there's still Hippowdon who can get you a free Sandstorm. Even though Hippowdon does not benefit from it like Tyranitar can, your other Rock types get the benefit.

And among those Rock types I see Rhyperior.

However, if your opponent also has Rock types, you are also boosting THEIR Spdef by your Sandstorm.

plasma · Apr 11, 2007

The thing is, though, that because Hippowdon doesn't benefit from the Sandstorm, it's much more balanced for him to have it.
Using 1/6 pokemon just to give Rhyperior a 50% bonus to special defense? Not so broken.
And personally, if you go beyond that, you have to start devoting your team to exploiting this, and I hoenstly think an all rock team, for instance, is a totally awesome idea and is something that should be encouraged over a team of a bunch of standards thrown together.

magtrio · Apr 11, 2007

imo, this is broken to hell.

El_Sargento · Apr 11, 2007

Cradily and Regirock are salivating...

...and Probopass eats Special Attacks for dinner (non-called Focus Bomb or Earth Power or HP)

...and Magcargo is... errrr... NO...

It's a pity what Ice types don't have a similar boost...

X-Act · Apr 11, 2007

You know, I'm starting to think that Gamefreak created another Sandstream Pokemon in DP just in case Tyranitar goes to uber status. :]

McGrrr · Apr 11, 2007

Standard battling looks like it will remain dominated by physical pokemon.

Having T-tar plus another rock pokemon gives you a horde of repeated weaknesses, notably to fighting and ground. Again, with Hippo, who is going to run 2 more rock Pokemon? People won't be using mono rock teams so the SD boost will likely affect 1 pokemon per team. Consider that it will probably affect you equally and so the balance really hasn't shifted much. Yes, Suicune and Milotic got shafted as rock counters, but I welcome that because they've had it all good until now.

Stop overreacting, noobs.

Edit: I'm all for anything that helps Regirox too YEAH!!

Hipmonlee · Apr 11, 2007

Why not run TTar and Aero. They have the repeated weaknesses of steel and water. Steel is a joke and Water (mostly) just got cut in two thirds. You could easily include Rhyperior as well without too much concern (maybe with Garchomp, Gyarados and some other pokemon).

Seriously two rocks per team is easy.. Three is only slightly interesting. I probably wouldnt run 4..

Anyway, I figure the main problem is just ttar by itself.. It isnt uncounterable, but it just has so much versatility now I cant imagine why anyone wouldnt use it.

noob.

Have a nice day.

Khawarith · Apr 11, 2007

I actually like this change. I play mostly UU anyhow so Tyranitar won't be setting up the Sandstorm, Hippowdon probably will, and Probopass will be a great Special wall.

Edit: And if anything this makes Gyarados more of a giant asshole (The boost doesn't affect Waterfall)

McGrrr · Apr 11, 2007

Hipno said:
Why not run TTar and Aero. They have the repeated weaknesses of steel and water. Steel is a joke and Water (mostly) just got cut in two thirds. You could easily include Rhyperior as well without too much concern (maybe with Garchomp, Gyarados and some other pokemon).

Seriously two rocks per team is easy.. Three is only slightly interesting. I probably wouldnt run 4..

Agreeing that TTar plus Aero is viable, despite Metagross and Gyarados being staples. Running Aero with Rhyperior, and counting on an opponent's sandstream is plausible too. TTar, Aero and Rhyperior is trying to force a point I think, and it doesn't work. Nor does Rhyperior, Aero and Hippo (though this is slightly better type wise).

Making a team around sandstream doesn't have the same vulnerabilities as before, but your opponent can abuse it just as easy as you. Therefore, I do not envision the change to dent the battling environment to the extent that people are claiming. The main beneficiary of all this is not a pokemon but an attack in my opinion; earthquake.

Matt · Apr 11, 2007

Fully support moving Tyranitar to uber.

Implications of Sandstorm discussion.

Hipmonlee

Have a nice day

Stallion

Tree Young

Hipmonlee

Have a nice day

toy

Lateralus

X-Act

np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock

Little Green Yoda

plasma

Synesthetic

Team Rocket Elite

Data Integration Thought Entity

Hekatoncheir

Phuquoph

Ayrton.nS)

plasma

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!

X-Act

np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock

plasma

magtrio

El_Sargento

X-Act

np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock

McGrrr

Facetious

Hipmonlee

Have a nice day

Khawarith

McGrrr

Facetious

Matt

Maybe monads might not matter

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