List of most common misconceptions

Mekkah

Mekkah

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In this thread, I will list some of the best kept secrets and most frequently hit traps I see people post about once in a while. The same arguments keep coming back and back, so this will serve as a reference.

1) Annoyers

Annoyers don't exist. They're not "old" or "old standards". Crobat, Umbreon and all these other "annoyers" aren't made to "annoy". Annoying is a pretty dense term as it is. "hm if you Confuse Ray me repeatly I will be annoyed" "Dragon Dance Salamence sweeping me is annoying" "Blissey walling my Special pokemon is annoying". What are you trying to reach by "annoying"? Causing someone to forfeit?

Usually the point of an annoying set is to stop the opponent from attacking as much as possible or deal residual damage via confusion or Toxic or something. 99% of the time it simply won't work. Ever since Advance, Pokemon's too offensive to be really bothered by this. Not to mention Blissey, Steel, Poison and Rest/Sleep Talk usually walk right over it.

2) Hidden Power versus 95 base power move

Sometimes you see people recommending Hidden Power Fire on Magneton (in Advance) or Magnezone (Diamond/Pearl) to...trap and kill Jirachi. Let's show the numbers here.

Thunderbolt's 95 base power times 1.5 for STAB = 142.5
Hidden Power Fire's 70 base power times 2 for Super Effectiveness = 140

Conclusion: Thunderbolt does more

"This combination hits everything neutral", for example, a random Water using HP Dragon because "HP Dragon/Surf" is not resisted by anything but Empoleon and Shedinja".

Let's say Surf is neutral and HP Dragon is SE. You get the same scenario as above. Let's say Surf is NVE and HP Dragon is neutral. You get this:

Surf's 95 base power times 1.5 for STAB = 142.5. Times 0.5 for Not Very Effective makes 71.25
Hidden Power Dragon on neutral is 70

Conclusion: Surf does more, Hidden Power Dragon is only useful whenever it's 4x effective whenever Surf is neutral (impossible) or if it is SE whenever Surf is NVE (in which case you're usually better off with another move like Ice Beam)

3) Pursuit and Ice Punch on Weavile? It seems impossible!

Get a male Smeargle to Sketch both of these and breed with a female Sneasel or Weavile. This goes for any Pokemon in the Ground breeding group - they have no illegal Egg combinations.

4) Team Building Roles

Cooltrainer said:
The majority of people interested in competitive pokemon hear the words, "special wall" "physical sweeper", and think, all pokemon must fit under one of these titles. If you have taken American High School biology, this may sound like an ecological niche, the certain role that an organism fills for the ecosystem. As Mekkah said, "This is a common misconception".

These niche titles are labels, not defining "laws". Mekkah's example stated, "You don't use Kangaskhan to use a physical sweeper, you use Kangaskhan to use Kangaskhan." Although this may seem Serebii-cheesy, every pokemon is different and should be used differently. My best example of this would probably be the Dragonite vs Salamence argument, where Salamence outdoes Dragonite in almost everything. With 135 base attack in contrast to Dragonite's 134, Salamence seems to outclass Dragonite by a slight margin. If you do use Dragonite, you need to use the things that makes it different from Salamence. Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Focus Punch, and Outrage all stand out. It also has better defensive stats. You take these advantages into mind when deciding to choose which pokemon to use.

So, if you decided to read this post, when building a team, don't think, "I'm going to need a Special Wall for Special Threats". But, much like Jumpman16's threat list, think, "I'm going to need a pokemon that can stop Azelf". Pokemon is not a general kind of game, Specific pokemon will pose a popular threat, and these days its hard to get a pokemon that generally beats a whole population(Blissey comes very close).
Click to expand...

This needs to be read carefully. It summarizes my point: there's a whole lot of sites and guides that say you must use (for example):
1 physical sweeper
1 special sweeper
1 physical wall/sponge/tank/stopper
1 special wall/sponge/tank/stopper
1 annoyer
1 utility/cleric/spinner etc

This format is flawed in quite a few ways.
a) it implies that a Pokemon cannot do multiple things at once
2) it implies that a Pokemon that is in the "special wall" spot automatically stops all Special threats, which might have held true in past generations to an extent, but ever since we got so many new ways to deal with even Blissey (Taunt, Rest/Sleep Talk, Perish Song, Focus Punch) not to mention some Special threats just cut through her with sheer power (Calm Minded Alakazam Focus Blast, Choice Specs Lucario with Aura Sphere). Proper physical walls don't even exist anymore, you'll have to rely on resistances. Skarmory doesn't even wall half of the physical threats anymore. Just look at Gyarados, Tyranitar, Salamence, Aerodactyl, Rampardos, Heracross...
3) it implies every team needs a Special sweeper AND a physical sweeper. Fact is, most teams tend to not even have the former.

You should look at individual Pokemon and fuse them together to make a good team. The above format is bullshit.

I will list more when I have time. Or someone else will edit in more when they have time.
 
Go back to your homework, noob.

People usually underestimate the defenses of weak pokemon. For example, with a tiny bit of tinkering, Dodrio survives maximum damage Metagross meteor mash (alliteration++). Similarly, Weavile can take more punishment than you would think, so don't abandon its defenses (particularly SD) when breeding for IVs.
 
Technically Flinchax is a more recent sub-variation of annoyers and probably the closest to the old definition if there ever was one. To be honest I always thought 'lockdown' would be a more accurate way of describing 'annoyers'. In essence thats what the concept behind them is, to try limit your opponents moves/options as much as possible.

Also to add to that Weaville point. Check if your pokemon is in the Ground egg group, if it is than ANY egg move is legal due to Smeargle.

Good thing point 2 was noted though, I see alot of people saying Thunderpunch on DDnite to cover water when Outrage does far more damage and covers near every type. Its just redundancy when Fire+Dragon is a universal covering type with Heatran as the exception as a common example.
 
Mekkah said:
Let's say Surf is NVE and HP Dragon is neutral. You get this:

Surf's 95 base power times 1.5 for STAB = 142.5. Times 0.5 for Not Very Effective makes 71.25
Click to expand...
It took me a while to understand this, because the mindset of "don't use NVE moves" is pretty much built in from ten years of playing ingame Pokemon. Similarly I realised that my Typhlosion's charcoaled Eruption NVE does more than a neutral Focus Blast. Which says a lot for the awesomeness of the former.
 
When you remember all a NVE move is essentially a halved attack power I realized myself Typhlosion Sunnyday/Blaze/Petaya Berry Fire Blast should still be OHKO'ing Salamence since even with the cut its still doing 2x damage. It also did a hell lot more on Milotic than HP Grass could.
 
I'm pretty sure "annoying" refers to Pokemon that primarily rely on status ailments, like Jumpluff (correct me if I'm wrong).

If I remember correctly, someone used Confuse Ray on my Leafeon and I ended up Baton Passing the confusion (and Swords Dance) on to the next Pokemon, so it could mess up Baton Pass chains.
 
Couple of things I'd like to point out about the RMT section:

  • 4 / 252 / 252 spreads are not ideal for a pokemon. Unless you are making it a sweeper or a wall, then stay away from those kinds of spreads
  • Again, a counter is by definition something that can safely switch into several of a pokemon's moves and at the same time be able to threaten it. Because a pokemon has a super effective move does not mean it is a counter
  • UMBREON IS NOT A WALL. It is switch bait for too many stuff like Heracross / Ursaring / Salamence / Garchomp / Dragonite, who all at least can at most 2HKO him.
  • Try not to focus your team around 6 standards just thrown together meant to counter stuff.
 
While Umbreon is not a wall, I would like to point out that Charmbreon stops Hera/Ttar/Gyara switch-ins cold, giving you a chance to switch to a real counter while they DD up or something.
 
LocoUser said:
4 / 252 / 252 spreads are not ideal for a pokemon. Unless you are making it a sweeper or a wall, then stay away from those kinds of spreads
Click to expand...


I thought someone told me that 128 IVs were a bad number to have on something too.

Naturally people are going to disagree, but like...why are 252/252 spreads bad for a non-sweeper/wall? And what's better?
 
sanjay120 said:
While Umbreon is not a wall, I would like to point out that Charmbreon stops Hera/Ttar/Gyara switch-ins cold, giving you a chance to switch to a real counter while they DD up or something.
Click to expand...

Still, do not use it as a Heracross / Tyrannitar / Gyarados counter though, nor should it be wall
 
Forsety said:
Good thing point 2 was noted though, I see alot of people saying Thunderpunch on DDnite to cover water when Outrage does far more damage and covers near every type. Its just redundancy when Fire+Dragon is a universal covering type with Heatran as the exception as a common example.
Click to expand...

I carry a Dragonite with Dragon Dance, Draco Meteor (just in case), Earthquake and Thunderpunch. I usually use thunderpunch for Skarmory or levitators, as I dislike that Outrage locks you for 3 turns.

However, I do see your guys' point- Compared to Outrage Thunderpunch is just a wasted moveslot especially considering Dragonite has Fire Punch for any steel type.
 
LocoUser said:
Couple of things I'd like to point out about the RMT section:

  • 4 / 252 / 252 spreads are not ideal for a pokemon. Unless you are making it a sweeper or a wall, then stay away from those kinds of spreads

    Most Pokemon fall into either of these categories though, if not all.
  • Again, a counter is by definition something that can safely switch into several of a pokemon's moves and at the same time be able to threaten it.Because a pokemon has a super effective move does not mean it is a counter

    This is a good one, though it's been addressed in a sticky.
  • UMBREON IS NOT A WALL. It is switch bait for too many stuff like Heracross / Ursaring / Salamence / Garchomp / Dragonite, who all at least can at most 2HKO him.

    I've never heard of anyone saying Umbreon counters these. However, I fail to see the logic in all these people (cough Great Sage cough) saying Umbreon is completely useless in D/P. It is one of the most reliable Gengar counters there is, besides the obvious things it is one of the few Pursuiters who enjoys getting Will-o-Wisped to an extent because Gengar will suffer it all the same thanks to Synchronize. If you're afraid of aforementioned things switching in for free, use Charm and don't make it obvious you're going to Toxic.
  • Try not to focus your team around 6 standards just thrown together meant to counter stuff.

I usually do that if I'm not going for something specific.
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I thought someone told me that 128 IVs were a bad number to have on something too.
Click to expand...

Funnily enough, the only Pokemon I usually end up putting 128 EVs in a stat is...Umbreon, who usually gets 252 HP, 128 Def, 128 SpDef for me with Calm. Well, in Advance, that is. I suppose you'd use Careful in D/P for Pursuit. My spreads end up with 252 in one stat, 176 in another and the rest split around where convenient fairly often. 176 + beneficial nature gives you a free stat point in that stat, basically.
 
Yoshi King said:
I carry a Dragonite with Dragon Dance, Draco Meteor (just in case), Earthquake and Thunderpunch. I usually use thunderpunch for Skarmory or levitators, as I dislike that Outrage locks you for 3 turns.

However, I do see your guys' point- Compared to Outrage Thunderpunch is just a wasted moveslot especially considering Dragonite has Fire Punch for any steel type.
Click to expand...

Yes, you'll especially want to go Fire Punch because of Bronzong who will almost always be Levitating.
 
Mekkah said:
Funnily enough, the only Pokemon I usually end up putting 128 EVs in a stat is...Umbreon, who usually gets 252 HP, 128 Def, 128 SpDef for me with Calm. Well, in Advance, that is. I suppose you'd use Careful in D/P for Pursuit. My spreads end up with 252 in one stat, 176 in another and the rest split around where convenient fairly often. 176 + beneficial nature gives you a free stat point in that stat, basically.
Click to expand...

Um, you mind explaining how that works?
 
If you have a boosting nature, after a certain number of EVs gained, at level 100, you will gain 2 stats instead of 1 stat per 4 EVs.
Hmm.... I dont think I explained that very well.

An example is Jumpmans bulky Gyarados. 16 ATK, so that you get 5 Atk points, not 4.
 
bauer said:
Um, you mind explaining how that works?
Click to expand...

299*1.1 = 328 (rounded down)
300*1.1 = 330

Repeat for all numbers ending it 9 and 0.

Most pokemon have base stats equal to a multiple of 5. Therefore, with a 31 IV and 0 EVs, these stats end in 6. (For example Zangoose has 90 base speed, 90*2+5+IV = 216). 16 EVs will increase its speed to 220, the nearest multiple of 10. Thereafter, every 40 EVs will reach a new multiple of 10, so you get a "bonus" point with a beneficial nature at 16, 56, 96, 136, 176 and 216. If a boosted stat has an irregular base, you can adjust these figures accordingly. For example, Infernape has 108 base speed, 108*2+5+IV = 252 so it will get a bonus point with a beneficial nature at 32, 72, 112, 152, 192 and 232.

There is nothing significant about using 128 EVs in a particular stat. It is as likely to be optimal as any other multiple of 4 beyond the most common numbers. I recommend having a damage calculator at hand when distributing EVs.
 
I just read X-Act's Chatot thread, and Chatter does NOT have 100% confusion. It's actually like 10 or 20%. So yea it totally sucks.
 
Common misconception: Blissey has only 10 base defense, so it can't take a physical hit.
Fact: Blissey can survive an Earthquake from a Swords Danced, max attack Garchomp.
 
SonicZeroX said:
I just read X-Act's Chatot thread, and Chatter does NOT have 100% confusion. It's actually like 10 or 20%. So yea it totally sucks.
Click to expand...
Since Chatters confusion accuracy depends on how much noise you make into the microphone, it will always differ. How will that work on competitor though?
 
McGraw said:
299*1.1 = 328 (rounded down)
300*1.1 = 330

Repeat for all numbers ending it 9 and 0.

Most pokemon have base stats equal to a multiple of 5. Therefore, with a 31 IV and 0 EVs, these stats end in 6. (For example Zangoose has 90 base speed, 90*2+5+IV = 216). 16 EVs will increase its speed to 220, the nearest multiple of 10. Thereafter, every 40 EVs will reach a new multiple of 10, so you get a "bonus" point with a beneficial nature at 16, 56, 96, 136, 176 and 216.

There is nothing significant about using 128 EVs in a particular stat. It is as likely to be optimal as any other multiple of 4 beyond the most common numbers. I recommend having a damage calculator at hand when distributing EVs.
Click to expand...

Thanks, how interesting. I'll take this into account when creating EV spreads for my pokemon.
 
ihcati said:
Since Chatters confusion accuracy depends on how much noise you make into the microphone, it will always differ. How will that work on competitor though?
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Oh god, seriously?

This will ROCK.

Competitor should have it at 100% IMO. Return and Frustration are always max power, why not Chatter?
 
EDIT: Fairly pointless rant removed.

My favorite misconception is that every viable Pokemon setup (moveset, item, nature, etc.) has already been discovered. It seems that a lot of players, especially new ones, just look at what is commonly accepted as powerful and run with it. Creative ideas can really give you an edge. You just need to figure out what's viable and what isn't.:)
 
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