Chain Chomp

One day in #smogon, I came up with an idea for a new Garchomp set with Mekkah. For those of you who just want to skip to the end (Part 5) because of tl;dr, the general concept is to use one of DP's most overwhelmingly broken additions to cripple a physical wall to let another strong physical attacker, or even a semi-neutered Garchomp, perform a sweep. But first a little backstory charting the creation and evolution of the idea, in the form of the IRC logs interspersed with commentary. This is a good example of how we develop sets, if you're interested!

Part 1: The Idea
<Surgo> you know what
<Surgo> I think choice specs garchomp is viable
<Mekkah> don't kid yourself
<Mekkah> mence does it better
<Surgo> no listen to me


Part 2: The Prototype

<Surgo> it's like special gyarados
<Surgo> what are garchomp's common switch-ins?
<Mekkah> special gyarados isn't good either
<Surgo> donphan hippowdon slowbro
<Surgo> choice specs draco meteor fucking destroys those
<Surgo> I think it could work
<Mekkah> slowbro can slack it off I'm sure
<Surgo> slowbro has like base 80 special defense
<Surgo> it should be 2HKOed
<Mekkah> how much spa does chomp have
<Mekkah> it's not salamence you know
<Surgo> base 80 special attack
<Surgo> but draco meteor is a fucking powerful attack
<Surgo> and choice specs
<Surgo> it will cripple their physical wall

Okay, we got the idea down. I had thought about Choice Specs Garchomp in the past, but generally discounted it because of its low special attack. It would still be something of a gimmick set, but it would be like CrazyStarwolf's special Gyarados was in advance, I figure. So let's see what kind of damaging this thing can do.

<Mekkah> 259 attack vs 190 defense, 140 power(* 1.5 * 1.5), 386 max HP: 80.05% - 94.3%
<Surgo> and that's not even modest
<Surgo> I seriously think this is workable
<Surgo> I'd even use Swords Dance on it for the first time you show it to make them think it's physical
<Surgo> garchomp is very easy to switch in so it's not a waste
<Mekkah> against hippowdon:
<Mekkah> 259 attack vs 180 defense, 140 power(* 1.5 * 1.5), 420 max HP: 77.86% - 91.43%
<Hazerider> you'd use sd on choice specs garchomp
<Surgo> yes
<Surgo> just to masquerade though
<Surgo> scout out skarmory or other steels etc

Okay, so that was what I like to call "Chain Chomp mark 1". We soon came up with a better idea, however! We proceeded to examine Garchomp's special movepool and saw that the only special moves of note were Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, and...Surf. Yeah, Surf. Watch out Heatran, the #1 Garchomp switch-in ever! We quickly conclude that this has problems with Cresselia, which is actually a common Garchomp switch-in, which becomes important later on down the line.


Part 3: The Discovery

<Surgo> you know I wonder if you could use life orb and earthquake and still 2HKO shit with draco meteor
<Mekkah> on hippowdon
<Mekkah> 259 attack vs 180 defense, 140 power(* 1.3 * 1.5), 420 max HP: 67.38% - 79.29%
<Mekkah> 129 attack vs 180 defense, 140 power(* 1.3 * 1.5), 420 max HP: 33.81% - 39.76%
<Mekkah> so yeah it JUST kos


Part 4: The Turning Point

<Surgo> stealth rock and it's guaranteed too btw


Part 5: The Result!

Garchomp @Life Orb ** Chain Chomp
EVs: 16 Attack / 252 Special Attack / 240 Speed
Nature: Lonely OR Naughty
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast

<Mekkah> ChainChomp V2.0 © Mullet Brothers

So what's the point? The point is to send it out and lure out your opponent's main physical wall, their regular "Garchomp counter". You immediately hit it with a Draco Meteor to cripple it. When combined with Stealth Rock, the second Draco Meteor is a immediate kill on every Garchomp switch in except Cresselia and Milotic (and presumably Suicune, but that lacks a 50% recovery move).

Don't believe me? Here's some more damage calculations courtesy of Mekkah.

Damage Calculations:

AGAINST HIPPOWDON
Draco Meteor on max HP, minimum SpDef Hippowdon:
259 attack vs 180 defense, 140 power(* 1.5 * 1.3), 420 max HP: 67.38% - 79.29%

Draco Meteor on max HP, minimum SpDef Hippowdon after SpAtk drop:
129 attack vs 180 defense, 140 power(* 1.5 * 1.3), 420 max HP: 33.81% - 39.76%

If Hippowdon has no Leftovers, Draco Meteor kills it in two hits. If it does, it still risks being KOed, and that's not even taking Spikes or Stealth Rock into account. Note the importance of one of these here!

AGAINST WEEZING
Draco Meteor on max HP, minimum SpDef Weezing:
259 attack vs 176 defense, 140 power(* 1.5 * 1.3), 394 max HP: 73.6% - 86.55%

Draco Meteor on max HP, minimum SpDef Weezing after SpAtk drop:
129 attack vs 176 defense, 140 power(* 1.5 * 1.3), 394 max HP: 36.8% - 43.4%

Fire Blast on max HP, minimum SpDef Weezing:
259 attack vs 176 defense, 120 power(* 1.3), 394 max HP: 41.88% - 49.49%

Draco Meteor + Stealth Rock = guaranteed dead Weezing, though it dies very often anyways. Or you could use Fire Blast on the switch, then Draco Meteor.

AGAINST SLOWBRO
Draco Meteor on max HP, minimum SpDef Slowbro:
259 attack vs 196 defense, 140 power(* 1.5 * 1.3), 394 max HP: 65.99% - 77.66%

Draco Meteor on max HP, minimum SpDef Slowbro after SpAtk drop:
129 attack vs 196 defense, 140 power(* 1.5 * 1.3), 394 max HP: 32.99% - 39.09%

Draco Meteor + Draco Meteor + Spikes or Stealth Rock = guaranteed dead Slowbro. Like Weezing, it needs luck to survive even without Stealth Rock or Spikes.

AGAINST BRONZONG
Fire Blast on max HP, max SpDef, +SpDef natured, Levitate Bronzong:
259 attack vs 364 defense, 120 power(* 1.3 * 2), 338 max HP: 47.63% - 55.92%

Earthquake on max HP, max Def, +Def natured, Heatproof Bronzong:
330 attack vs. 364 defense, 100 power, times 3.90: 257 - 304 (target hp: 275 - 338)

AGAINST SKARMORY
Fire Blast on max HP, minimum SpDef Skarmory:
259 attack vs 176 defense, 120 power(* 1.3 * 2), 334 max HP: 99.1% - 116.77%

Draco Meteor on max HP, minimum SpDef Skarmory:
259 attack vs 176 defense, 140 power(* 1.3 * 1.5 * 0.5), 334 max HP: 43.41% - 50.9%

Fire Blast on max HP, minimum SpDef Skarmory after SpAtk drop:
129 attack vs 176 defense, 120 power(* 1.3 * 2), 334 max HP: 49.4% - 58.38%

If Skarmory even takes 1% damage it gets killed by Fire Blast. Skarmory isn't a counter to Garchomp anyway, but it's a common physical wall so it's included for completeness.

AGAINST STARMIE
304 HP versions (a significant HP investment) are OHKOed when Spikes or Stealth Rock are on the field.

AGAINST GLISCOR
Draco Meteor on max HP, minimum SpDef Gliscor:
259 attack vs. 186 defense, 140 power, times 1.95: 273 - 321 (target hp: 354)

Draco Meteor 2 on max HP, minimum SpDef Gliscor:
129 attack vs. 186 defense, 140 power, times 1.95: 136 - 161 (target hp: 354)

No chance.

AGAINST DONPHAN
Draco Meteor on max HP, minimum SpDef Donphan:
259 attack vs. 156 defense, 140 power, times 1.95: 325 - 384 (target hp: 384)

No need to even calculate the second, Donphan stands zero chance.

AGAINST BLISSEY
Earthquake on max HP, max+ Defense Blissey:
330 attack vs. 130 defense, 100 power, times 1.95: 354 - 419 (target hp: 714)

Swords Dance Earthquake on max HP, max+ Defense Blissey:
660 attack vs. 130 defense, 100 power, times 1.95: 707 - 834 (target hp: 714)

What does this mean? It means that Chain Chomp, despite being built to hit on the special side, is still a massive physical threat as well.

More Remarks
You have 300 speed to outspeed and KO choice specs Salamence and non-Jolly Gliscor. So, knock out their physical wall. You can then sweep with a Swords Dance Earthquake (if they don't have Cresselia), or open up the game for another physical sweeper that can take on Cresselia easily and benefits from something like Gliscor or Hippowdon being gone. Heracross and Tyranitar are two examples that immediately come to mind. In addition, if you want to use the strategy, you'll want to use Stealth Rock...your KO ability against everything skyrockets, and you get a guaranteed OHKO and Slowbro, Hippowdon, and Blissey in case you are extremely unlucky.

Garchomp is a threat that can hit reasonably hard on both the physical and special side at the same time. Draco Meteor is such a broken attack.


Special Thanks to:
- Hazerider for the name
- Hazerider, lords, and Kumar for various ideas and support, including the current EV spread.


In Conclusion
<cLoUd> im in love with garchomp, every variant is ridiculously strong

This set reminds me of the TyraniBOAH set.

Although normally Tyranitar is Physical, it can still easily manage a mixed set with their Special Attacks being used to kill standard walls that would've gotten in the way of the every day Physical Tyranitar. TBolt = Dead Starmie, Skarmory, etc. Dark Pulse = Dead Defensive Mono-Ground Pokemon. Donphan, Hippowdon, etc. Substitute = Protection against status and 101 Subs to delay Blissey. Focus Punch = KOed Blissey.

I really like this set, and it has the potential to be somewhat of a GarBOAH set. Chain Chomp is a nice name, but there's no Chains here. Those attacks can take care of common Garchomp counters as stated very easily.

Could you test and see if a Swords Danced Crunch can 2HKO Blissey? I suppose a 1HKO Earthquake would be a bit more important, but that leaves him open to Cresselia.

Can Garchomp use Crunch so it can take care of Cresselia in a 1 or 2HKO?

Also note that in Sandstorm teams, it can handle Cresselia a bit better, due to nulled Leftovers recovery and 33% Recovery. It'll also have Sand Veil activated, and it might make an Ice Beam miss every once in a while, that is if the Crunch wasn't fatal. Tyranitar would be good to take care of Cresselia in this case. Dragon Danced Crunches and Stone Edges will be painful to almost any Pokemon after Garchomp has done his job.

Such a good idea. I always knew special Garchomp was viable.

Damn, I wanna make one.

Thought I'd add some BulkyGyara calcs:

Draco Meteor - 259 attack vs 236 defense, 140 power(* 1.5 * 1.3), 384 max HP: 56.51% - 66.41%

With a Stealth Rock up, it's a definite 2HKO, so yeah.

I bet in like one or two days trade threads will have this in their wants. This thing is frikin dangerous, its probably as scary as palkia in ubers.

how much does draco meteor do to a bulky gyarados? I always find myself switching it in on garchomps.
This seems like a pretty good idea, but cresselia really messes it up, once they see you swords dancing though, they would probably switch to gyarados or the like, i dunno. Kudos to you for this idea.
<Surgo> you know what
<Surgo> I think choice specs garchomp is viable
<Mekkah> don't kid yourself
<Mekkah> mence does it better
<Surgo> no listen to me
Last time i told you about specs garchomp, you said it was more of a gimmick than anything >.>
Edit: thanks for the bulky gyara calcs, misty.

I'm going to design a team around this now. With stuff like Gliscor/Slowbro being knocked out by this, Tyranitar can have a field day (not to mention he activates Sand Veil). Tyranitar is also one of my favorite Cresselia counters, something this Chomp might have trouble with.

Only time will tell if I love this Garchomp more then the CScarf revenge killer.

I always thought of doing something like this, but I didn't want to seriously suggest it as anything but a gimmick.

I might make one sometime =)

If you don't mind :-) I'm gonna offer my tier analysis.

252 Sp. Atk Garchomp... gives 58.30. Salamence in comparison is 60.49. ~2 tiers difference == Salamence OHKOes with Draco Meteor with 2 more Sp. Defense tiers. Ditto with Two-hit KO.

So unlike Specsmence, Draco Meteor probably will be a "surprise" instead of a main method of attack.

As far as OHKOs, 58.3 + 4.25 (stab) + 51.85 (Draco Meteor) + 2.75 (life orb) - 3.53 (magic number) == 110.15 + 7 - 3.53 == 113.68 and below is the OHKO mark... not much.

Salamence's 2 tier base advantage, then the Choice Specs vs Life Orb make a huge difference.

Well what do you know? Weezing is only 113.03 w/o HP evs, 115.22 with 252 HP evs.

But the thing is 113.03 is a very low mark.

As far as two hits... 56.10 is the power of two Draco Meteors. 4.25 points of difference...

So Garchomp kills 117.28 tiers and lower with Sp. Def tiers with Draco Meteor.

The chance of OHKO is extended to 1.7 tiers above this mark btw. So Garchomp has a chance to kill as high as 118.98 Sp. Def pokemon with two Draco Meteors.

I don't know. This is nice and all... but Specsmence can run Life Orb and Dragon Dance. Funny thing is that people are now switching in Blisseys to Salamences expecting a Draco meteor, but people may have forgotten Salamence's Dragon Dance as well as his higher base attack than Garchomp.

A couple days ago I was thinking about Choice Specs Garchomp, but I have to say this is alot better (if only he got a Special movepool past Fire Blast and Draco Meteor... then again, that's really all Salamence uses too). I like how Swords Dance + Earthquake + Life Orb leads the opponent to assume it's a standard Life Orb, only to have their physical wall killed. Cresselia is like the only thing that walls it. The only other thing I can think of is a Careful, 252HP/252SpDef/4Def WilloWisp/Ice Punch (or Ice Beam) Dusknoir, and WilloWisp has to hit or Earthquake 2HKO's without Swords Dance.

I don't know how much I like Swords Dance with one physical move though.

I'm glad I didn't have to play against this when I played against you a few days ago, I would have done even worse.

Dragontamer said:

I don't know. This is nice and all... but Specsmence can run Life Orb and Dragon Dance. Funny thing is that people are now switching in Blisseys to Salamences expecting a Draco meteor, but people may have forgotten Salamence's Dragon Dance as well as his higher base attack than Garchomp.

Click to expand...

We were also thinking about what Salamence could do as we were brainstorming this, but we haven't yet come up with any concrete ideas like this.

Higher base attack is a bit misleading when you only have one physical attack though...Earthquake with STAB is stronger than any of Salamence's attacks despite Salamence having a higher base attack, and Garchomp raises its attack faster...anyway, this is getting a bit offtopic.

It sounds like a very potent threat. It's been mentioned a few times before, but could you possibly run Crunch over Earthquake? After a Swords Dance, it does 65.09% - 76.58% to a max / max neutral natured Cresselia, effectively 2HKOing, while Cresselia won't OHKO with Ice Beam, and it does 72.08% - 85.03% to max / max Slowbro as well with the same, and puts a nice dent into Bronzong as well 3HKOing max / max ones.

Assuming I have the right Gyarados spread, Garchomp does 51.04% - 60.16% to Gyarados with full-powered Draco Meteor, and does 26.04% - 30.47% after the drop. Guaranteed kill on the second hit with Stealth Rock in play. This is becoming a very interesting idea

Oh, and your assumption of Stealth Rock and Spikes... I don't really like :-p

But I guess it is useful to always have that in an analysis. With Spikes, you'll KO .91 Sp. Def tiers... 1.91 with two layers, and 3.01 more with 3 layers. Stealth rock is similar. 1.4 more tiers with typical pokemon, .67 more tiers if they resist, 3.01 more tiers if weak.

So Garchomp's OHKO with Draco Meteor still remains low at 113.94... or ~115 for a "chance" of OHKO after one layer of spikes. EDIT: Oh yeah, and then 114.43 and below with Stealth Rock non-resist.

Dragontamer said:

Oh, and your assumption of Stealth Rock and Spikes... I don't really like :-p

Click to expand...

I don't see time there is an assumption of Stealth Rock and Spikes, as I think every time it's mentioned it is or, and more often than not even without Stealth Rock up(which really isn't unrealistic to expect imo) the targets listed take more than 106% average damage.

Cool, chainchomp has finally been posted. I guess we can expect a good amount of smogoners to start using this. Guess the pre-DP garchomp hype might come true after all.

Surgo said:

We were also thinking about what Salamence could do as we were brainstorming this, but we haven't yet come up with any concrete ideas like this.

Higher base attack is a bit misleading when you only have one physical attack though...Earthquake with STAB is stronger than any of Salamence's attacks despite Salamence having a higher base attack, and Garchomp raises its attack faster...anyway, this is getting a bit offtopic.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure if it is really off topic... I mean, if another pokemon can do something better than the proposed set, it certainly is on topic. Anyway... I was thinking about the following set:

Double Dragon (All 3 dragons can do this set)
252 Sp. Atk / 252 spares
Life Orb
------
Dragon/Swords Dance
Dragon Claw / Outrage
Fire Blast
Draco Meteor

With only steel resisting the double-dragon set, Fire Blast is a must. All of the calculations you've done hold for Dragonite who has 20 more Base Sp. Atk than Garchomp (and 59.81... 1.5 more Sp. Attack tiers than Garchomp).

Dragon Dance, the weaker "dance" of the two, still increases your attack tier by 4.25, which is the difference in OHKOing Weavile and Porygon2. Each Dragon has their own set. Garchomp is the best swords dancer, Dragonite gets 3 attacks 120 base or higher (Outrage, Fire Blast and Draco Meteor), Salamence is the most powerful special attacker but weakest physical.

Earthquake vs Dragon Claw is a tough choice for Garchomp. But the above is only a template :-p Anyway, that is a sacrifice of 1.34 attack tiers. When Garchomp counters are immune to ground, Dragon Claw seems to be a very safe bet. Claw them on the switch, Meteor them the 2nd turn for the virtually guarenteed kill. If they switch, their counter is screwed. If they don't switch, their own pokemon is screwed.

Win-win.

EDIT: Heatproof Bronzong and Heatran seem to be the only ones who can wall the double-dragon set at this point. Aside from that... its GG.

I've been playing with this on Shoddy and it's pretty neat. It surprises a lot of people (98% to Weezing with DM plus the 6% from SR, FB on Skarmory).

It takes out a couple Pokemon before it dies.

I actually have a Mischievous Naughty Gible laying around in my PC, so I'll have to try this out.

I actually thought about this type of garchomp earlier in the month except I didn't think of the ep spread. I stopped thinking about this when I realized that cresselia still stops this version regardless of sp atk or atk.

This variant does deserve a good mention though, for when the user surprises the physcial wall, then the opponent will end in a critical condition.

This is actually a pretty good idea. I thought about this previously and thought that it was just a stupid gimmick, but the numbers prove otherwise.

Synre said:

I don't see time there is an assumption of Stealth Rock and Spikes, as I think every time it's mentioned it is or, and more often than not even without Stealth Rock up(which really isn't unrealistic to expect imo) the targets listed take more than 106% average damage.

Click to expand...

Heh, if you read my post you can see that I've assumed "or" anyway. But yes. My mistake for misuing and/or... My point is that if you assume spikes or stealth rock, I can always assume rapid spin.

This thing is a beast, i can imagine Meteor would hit Rhyperior hard too?

This thing would have swept my team the other day if Surgo didnt get unlucky, if you are not prepared one false move will kill you

Im considering building a team around this now

Dragontamer said:

Heh, if you read my post you can see that I've assumed "or" anyway. But yes. My mistake for misuing and/or... My point is that if you assume spikes or stealth rock, I can always assume rapid spin.

Click to expand...

Which is why nothing exists in a vacuum. If I were to use Chain Chomp in a team, it would be centered around getting Stealth Rock up as quickly as possible. Maybe it would use Dusknoir to block rapid spin. Or maybe Chain Chomp would just destroy all the common spinners.

Like everything else in pokemon, the set requires team synergy to be at its most effective. There's no simple "okay just drop this in your team" solution, ever.

It's surprising, but I find it funny how people that laughed at Draco Meteor on Chomp make up a set for it. (This isn't all of the inventors of the set, but I'm sure some of you loled at it at first.)

Only thing I can think of that stops this thing cold is Cresselia. With Life Orb, Draco Meteor from Chomp is laughed at by Cresselia. EQ is useless against it. And let's not mention Fire Blast. For this to be fully effective, I'd recommend Outrage and Dragon Claw being other options in EQ's slot, since after your opponents steel type is dead, Sword Danced Outrage can downright overkill anything not faster than it. That's where Dragon Claw comes in so you can't get revenge killed as easily.

If I wanted to hit Cresselia, I would put Crunch over Fire Blast. You lose against Skarmory and you aren't nearly as strong against Bronzong, but you can still actually sweep physically. Alternatively there's Outrage over Earthquake.