Clamperl (Analysis)

Elevator Music · Apr 28, 2011

QC: macle, Aerrow
GP: Erebyssial, Aeron Ee1
--

[Overview]
Clamperl has a lot going for it this generation, as it is able to use DeepSeaTooth again and got a very powerful boost in the form of Shell Smash. DeepSeaTooth Clamperl is by far the most powerful Pokemon in LC, especially when combined with Shell Smash which boosts its already-insane Special Attack and fixes its mediocre Speed. It has a fairly shallow movepool, but with 68 Special Attack after a single turn of setup, a vast majority of the metagame is OHKOed regardless. Clamperl's only real drawback is its Speed; it's too slow to forgo Shell Smash, but Shell Smash Clamperl is very vulnerable to the ubiquitous priority in Little Cup, which really limits its sweeping potential. Despite these issues, Clamperl is still one of the most threatening (and adorable!) Pokemon in Little Cup.

[SET]
name: Shell Smash
move 1: Shell Smash
move 2: Surf
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Hidden Power Electric / Hidden Power Fire
item: DeepSeaTooth / Eviolite
nature: Timid
evs: 76 HP / 248 SpA / 180 Spe
ivs: 30 Atk / 30 SpA

[SET COMMENTS]
The premise of this set is simple: find an appropriate time to use Shell Smash and then annihilate everything. With DeepSeaTooth and a Timid nature, Clamperl's Special Attack reaches 34, 68 after a Shell Smash, allowing it to OHKO almost every Pokemon in LC. Shell Smash also brings Clamperl's Speed up to 26, which will outspeed virtually everything in the tier barring a few of the faster Choice Scarf users. The other three moves provide Clamperl with adequate enough coverage to hit everything for at least neutral damage. Surf is Clamperl's strongest STAB move, Ice Beam hits Grass- and Dragon-types that resist Surf, and Hidden Power Electric hits most of the Water-types that resist both Surf and Ice Beam. Timid is much more important than Modest on this set, as the extra 4 Special Attack points gained after a Shell Smash are incredibly redundant compared to the 2 Speed points that help to remove many of Clamperl's would-be checks.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
Hidden Power Fire can be used instead of Hidden Power Electric to hit Ferroseed, one of the only Pokemon that can survive an attack from +2 Clamperl, although this leaves Clamperl unable to hit most opposing Water-types for neutral damage. Likewise, Hidden Power Grass can be used to hit Wooper and Chinchou harder; however, Clamperl can easily KO both of them with Surf after a Shell Smash anyways (although the rare Eviolite Chinchou will be able to survive), so it isn't really worth it.

It is important to note that DeepSeaTooth Clamperl and Eviolite Clamperl should be played very differently. DeepSeaTooth Clamperl can be sent out early- and mid-game to fire off powerful attacks in order to wear down its checks or get easy kills. It should only use Shell Smash once all the opposing priority users, faster Choice Scarf users, and other checks are gone. Eviolite Clamperl cannot be sent out as early in the match, as it won't be able to hit hard enough without a Shell Smash boost. It doesn't need to be as wary of priority users, but everything else will still need to be removed for it to successfully pull of a sweep. The extra bulk that Eviolite provides will also help Clamperl to safely set up a Shell Smash.

Clamperl is one of those Pokemon that a team is centered around--its checks need to be covered by the rest of the team for it to have no problem sweeping. Entry hazards can wear down all of the Pokemon that check Clamperl, especially the bulky walls that lack reliable recovery like Ferroseed and Munchlax, so Dwebble and Ferroseed are great teammates. Pokemon that can help to take out priority users are also important. Wynaut can help trap and kill Croagunk, as well as some of the Choice Scarf Pokemon that check Clamperl, as well as help provide setup opportunities. Substitute + Hypnosis Gastly generally either scares out or lures common priority users too, and also has the added bonus of luring out and weakening Ferroseed. Magnemite can also be used to trap Ferroseed and OHKO it with Hidden Power Fire.

[Other Options]
Defensive Clamperl sets are kind of mediocre with all the boosting Pokemon and hard hitters around. A RestTalk set with DeepSeaScale could work though, as Clamperl hits 32 Special Defense with DeepSeaScale and a Calm nature. It also gets Scald to help ward off physical attackers. Clamperl also gets Iron Defense which could work well in tandem with Shell Armor; however, Clamperl lacks any form of reliable recovery meaning it won't stick around for very long.

[Checks and Counters]
Clamperl's checks and counters can be divided into three distinct groups: bulky Pokemon that can survive a boosted hit and OHKO Clamperl back, priority users that can revenge kill it after a Shell Smash, and Pokemon that can outspeed a +2 Clamperl and OHKO it. Both Ferroseed and Munchlax can survive any of Clamperl's attacks with enough investment in Special Defense and OHKO it back with Bullet Seed or Return, respectively. Mantyke can also survive any attack bar Hidden Power Electric and OHKO Clamperl back with a little bit of prior damage, while Eviolite Chinchou can survive all attacks except Hidden Power Grass.

Sucker Punch users like Stunky and Pawniard will both easily kill a Shell Smash-boosted Clamperl, although the mindgames that come with Sucker Punch may be unappealing and are risky against competent players. Mienfoo and Croagunk also work; however, they are significantly weaker, so without some residual damage, it may take a few sacrifices to bring Clamperl down. Timburr can pick off Clamperl as well with Mach Punch, but since it won't flinch like Fake Out does, Clamperl needs to be very weakened to be KOed.

Gastly will outspeed a +2 Timid Clamperl if it is holding a Choice Scarf and can hit it with Thunderbolt. Similarly, Chlorophyll Pokemon such as Bellsprout and Oddish will easily outspeed Clamperl in the sun and can OHKO it with SolarBeam or Seed Bomb. Choice Scarf Chinchou, Mienfoo, and Houndour can oustpeed Modest Clamperl after a boost, but will be outsped and OHKOed by Timid versions.

macle · Apr 30, 2011

For teammates, maybe include Dual Screens so priority moves don't hurt so much and name a good pokemon to set up entry hazards that has good synergy with perl.

Elevator Music · Apr 30, 2011

OK added Ferroseed who I think has the best synergy as a Spiker and also Dwebble because fast spikes don't require synergy.

I'm thinking about Screeners, but most of them are actually really bad this gen or don't have good synergy with Clamperl. Abra and Staryu are fast but eh, Natu has kinda poor synergy though is probably best, and all the other Psychics run into the same problem. Meditite lol?

Tobes · Apr 30, 2011

Maybe mention that hp fire beats ferroseed at the cost of a speed bracket and an answer to bulky waters?

Darkamber8828 · Apr 30, 2011

bronzor resists grass and clampy resists fire, and sets up sr

and, uh, baltoy resists electric and clampy resists water and ice, and it sets up sr

exeggcute resists both (!!), clampy resists ice and fire, and it has sleep powder

macle · May 1, 2011

stampd.

Aerrow · May 1, 2011

(QC Approved 2/2)

comatthew6 · May 2, 2011

is ferroseed OHKO'd by Ice Beam? If not, HP Fire/Fighting should get a slash in the final slot.

Elevator Music · May 6, 2011

Yea I mentioned HP Fire in QC but I didn't want to slash it onto the set.

Anyways I'm holding off on the writeup on the 1 in 100 chance that Clamperl gets banned this round? Really though I'm just lazy and have other stuff to do so this isn't at the top of my list (it will get done though!)

Zephyr · May 9, 2011

Alright. Even though I highly doubt it'll even be voted on; let alone banned this round lol.

Elevator Music · May 12, 2011

OK I finished the writeup for this although I'm going to skim over it once more before I put it in the queue. I did make a few notable changes while doing the writing, namely the following:

- Removed Modest as a slash on the set.
Modest is imo incredibly inferior to Timid. I doubt it gets any important KOes that Timid doesn't (honestly the difference between 68 and 72 is kind of like the difference between 400 and 500 Special Attack 9.9), but the extra Speed from 24 to 26 allows it to outspeed all Scarfed 17 Speed Pokemon, like Chinchou, Mienfoo, Houndour, etc (and +1 Carvanha).

- Replaced Hidden Power Electric with Hidden Power Fire
Almost nobody uses Electric and it's really inferior to Grass anyways, so I just mentioned it in AC. Ferroseed, however, is incredibly common and relevant, so I added that to the main set instead of just mentioning it in AC where I had it before.

- Didn't mention Dual Screen Pokemon in AC
I don't think any Dual Screen Pokemon have good enough synergy with Clamperl to be mentioned. I guess I could mention Bronzor or something but.... whatever? It's honestly not all that relevant regardless.

Erebyssial · May 13, 2011

[Overview]
Clamperl has a lot going for it this generation, as it is able to use DeepSeaTooth again and got a very powerful boost in the form of Shell Smash. DeepSeaTooth Clamperl is by far the most powerful Pokemon in LC, especially when combined with Shell Smash which boosts its already-insane Special Attack and fixes its mediocre Speed. and it is able to boost its already insane Special Attack with Shell Smash, as well as its mediocre Speed would be a big hindrance for it otherwise. It has a fairly shallow movepool, but with 68 Special Attack after a single turn of setup, a vast majority of the metagame is OHKOed regardless. Clamperl's only real drawback is its Speed; it's too slow to forgo not use Shell Smash, but Shell Smash Clamperl is very vulnerable to the ubiquitous priority in Little Cup, which really limits its sweeping potential. However Despite these issues, Clamperl is still one of the most threatening (and adorable!) Pokemon in Little Cup.

[SET]
name: Shell Smash
move 1: Shell Smash
move 2: Surf
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Fire
item: DeepSeaTooth / Eviolite
nature: Timid
evs: 76 Def / 248 SpA / 180 Spe
ivs: 30 Atk / 30 SpA

[SET COMMENTS]
The premise of this set is simple--find an appropriate time to use Shell Smash and then annihilate everything. With DeepSeaTooth and a Timid nature, Clamperl's Special Attack is reaches 34, and 68 after a Shell Smash, after a Shell Smash it is 68, allowing it to OHKO almost every Pokemon in LC. Shell Smash also brings Clamperl's Speed up to 26, which will outspeed virtually everything in the tier, barring a few of the faster Choice Scarf users. The other three moves provide Clamperl with adequate enough coverage to hit everything for at least neutral damage. Surf is Clamperl's strongest STAB move, Ice Beam hits Grass- and Dragon-types that resist Surf, and Hidden Power Grass hits the Water-types that resist both Surf and Ice Beam. Timid is much more important than Modest on this set, as the extra 4 Special Attack points gained after a Shell Smash are incredibly redundant compared to the 2 Speed points that help to remove many of Clamperl's would-be checks.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
Hidden Power Fire can be used instead of Hidden Power Grass to hit Ferroseed, one of the only Pokemon that can survive an attack from +2 Clamperl, although it this leaves Clamperl unable to hit most opposing Water-types for neutral damage. Likewise, Hidden Power Electric can likewise be used to hit Mantyke harder; however, Chinchou and Wooper are much more common and threatening, so it isn't really worth it.

It is important to note that DeepSeaTooth Clamperl and Eviolite Clamperl should be played very differently. DeepSeaTooth Clamperl can be sent out early- and mid-game to fire off powerful attacks which will in order to help to wear down its checks or to get easy kills. It should only use Shell Smash once all the opposing priority users, faster Choice Scarf users, and other checks are gone. Eviolite Clamperl cannot be sent out as early in the match, as it won't be able to hit hard enough without a Shell Smash boost. It doesn't need to be as wary of priority users, but everything else will still need to be removed for it to successfully pull of a sweep. The extra bulk that Eviolite provides will also help Clamperl to safely set up a Shell Smash.

Clamperl is one of those Pokemon that a team is centered around--its checks need to be covered by the rest of the team for it to have no problem sweeping. do its job properly, and if they are, it will have no problem sweeping. Entry hazards can wear down all of the Pokemon that check Clamperl, especially the bulky walls that lack reliable recovery like Ferroseed and Munchlax, so Dwebble and Ferroseed are great teammates. Pokemon that can help to take out priority users are also important. Wynaut can help trap and kill Croagunk, Meditite, and as well as some of the Choice Scarf Pokemon that check Clamperl, and can also as well as help provide setup opportunities. Substitute + Will-O-Wisp Misdreavus generally either scares away out or lures common priority users too, and also has the added bonus of luring out and weakening Ferroseed. Magnemite can also be used to get rid of trap Ferroseed with Magnet Pull and, as with Magnet Pull it can trap Ferroseed and OHKO it with Hidden Power Fire.

[Other Options]
Defensive Clamperl sets are kind of mediocre with all the boosting Pokemon and hard hitters around. A RestTalk set with DeepSeaScale could work though, as Clamperl hits 32 Special Defense with DeepSeaScale and a Calm nature. It also gets Scald to help ward off physical attackers. Clamperl also gets Iron Defense which could work well in tandem with Shell Armor; however, Clamperl lacks and form of reliable recovery so it probably wouldn't meaning it won't stick around for very long.

[Checks and Counters]
Clamperl's checks and counters can be divided into three distinct groups: bulky Pokemon that can survive a boosted hit and OHKO Clamperl back, priority users that can revenge kill it after a Shell Smash, and Pokemon that can outspeed a +2 Clamperl and OHKO it. Both Ferroseed and Munchlax can survive any of Clamperl's attacks with enough investment in Special Defense and OHKO it back with Bullet Seed or Return, respectively. Mantyke can also survive anything attack bar Hidden Power Electric and OHKO Clamperl back with a little bit of prior damage.

Meditite is a great check to Clamperl with its powerful priority attacks. After a Shell Smash, Meditite can easily pick off Clamperl with a Fake Out or two. Mienfoo and Croagunk also work; however, too, however they are significantly weaker, so without some residual damage it may take a few sacrifices to bring Clamperl down. Sucker Punch users like Stunky and Pawniard will both easily kill a post-boost Shell Smash-boosted Clamperl, although the mindgames that come with Sucker Punch may be unappealing and are risky against better competent players. Timburr can pick off Clamperl as well with Mach Punch, but since it won't flinch like Fake Out does, Clamperl needs to be very weakened to be KOed.

Both Choice Scarf Misdreavus and Gligar with a Choice Scarf will outspeed a +2 Timid Clamperl and can hit back with Thunderbolt and Earthquake, respectively. Similarly, Chlorophyll Pokemon such as Bellsprout and Petilil will easily outspeed Clamperl and can OHKO it with SolarBeam or Seed Bomb. Choice Scarf Chinchou, Mienfoo, and Houndour can oustpeed Modest Clamperl after a boost, but will be outsped and easily OHKOed by Timid versions.

Not much to say, nice job

GP 1/2

Aeron Ee1 · May 13, 2011

Changes in bold
Removals in red
Comments in bold red

[Overview]
Clamperl has a lot going for it this generation, as it is able to use DeepSeaTooth again and got a very powerful boost in the form of Shell Smash. DeepSeaTooth Clamperl is by far the most powerful Pokemon in LC, especially when combined with Shell Smash which boosts its already-insane Special Attack and fixes its mediocre Speed. It has a fairly shallow movepool, but with 68 Special Attack after a single turn of setup, a vast majority of the metagame is OHKOed regardless. Clamperl's only real drawback is its Speed; it's too slow to forgo Shell Smash, but Shell Smash Clamperl is very vulnerable to the ubiquitous priority in Little Cup, which really limits its sweeping potential. Despite these issues, Clamperl is still one of the most threatening (and adorable!) Pokemon in Little Cup.

[SET]
name: Shell Smash
move 1: Shell Smash
move 2: Surf
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Fire
item: DeepSeaTooth / Eviolite
nature: Timid
evs: 76 Def / 248 SpA / 180 Spe
ivs: 30 Atk / 30 SpA

[SET COMMENTS]
The premise of this set is simple: (colon) find an appropriate time to use Shell Smash and then annihilate everything. With DeepSeaTooth and a Timid nature, Clamperl's Special Attack reaches 34, and 68 after a Shell Smash, allowing it to OHKO almost every Pokemon in LC. Shell Smash also brings Clamperl's Speed up to 26, which will outspeed virtually everything in the tier barring a few of the faster Choice Scarf users. The other three moves provide Clamperl with adequate enough coverage to hit everything for at least neutral damage. Surf is Clamperl's strongest STAB move, Ice Beam hits Grass- and Dragon-types that resist Surf, and Hidden Power Grass hits the Water-types that resist both Surf and Ice Beam. Timid is much more important than Modest on this set, as the extra 4 Special Attack points gained after a Shell Smash are incredibly redundant compared to the 2 Speed points that help to remove many of Clamperl's would-be checks.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
Hidden Power Fire can be used instead of Hidden Power Grass to hit Ferroseed, one of the only Pokemon that can survive an attack from +2 Clamperl, although this leaves Clamperl unable to hit most opposing Water-types for neutral damage. Likewise, Hidden Power Electric can be used to hit Mantyke harder; however, Chinchou and Wooper are much more common and threatening, so it isn't really worth it.

It is important to note that DeepSeaTooth Clamperl and Eviolite Clamperl should be played very differently. DeepSeaTooth Clamperl can be sent out early- and mid-game to fire off powerful attacks which in order to wear down its checks or get easy kills. It should only use Shell Smash once all the opposing priority users, faster Choice Scarf users, and other checks are gone. Eviolite Clamperl cannot be sent out as early in the match, as it won't be able to hit hard enough without a Shell Smash boost. It doesn't need to be as wary of priority users, but everything else will still need to be removed for it to successfully pull of a sweep. The extra bulk that Eviolite provides will also help Clamperl to safely set up a Shell Smash.

Clamperl is one of those Pokemon that a team is centered around--its checks need to be covered by the rest of the team for it to have no problem sweeping. Entry hazards can wear down all of the Pokemon that check Clamperl, especially the bulky walls that lack reliable recovery like Ferroseed and Munchlax, so Dwebble and Ferroseed are great teammates. Pokemon that can help to take out priority users are also important. Wynaut can help trap and kill Croagunk, Meditite, and some of the Choice Scarf Pokemon that check Clamperl, as well as help provide setup opportunities. Substitute + Will-O-Wisp Misdreavus generally either scares out or lures common priority users too, and also has the added bonus of luring out and weakening Ferroseed. Magnemite can also be used to trap Ferroseed and OHKO it with Hidden Power Fire.

[Other Options]
Defensive Clamperl sets are kind of mediocre with all the boosting Pokemon and hard hitters around. A RestTalk set with DeepSeaScale could work though, as Clamperl hits 32 Special Defense with DeepSeaScale and a Calm nature. It also gets Scald to help ward off physical attackers. Clamperl also gets Iron Defense which could work well in tandem with Shell Armor; however, Clamperl lacks any form of reliable recovery meaning it won't stick around for very long.

[Checks and Counters]
Clamperl's checks and counters can be divided into three distinct groups: bulky Pokemon that can survive a boosted hit and OHKO Clamperl back, priority users that can revenge kill it after a Shell Smash, and Pokemon that can outspeed a +2 Clamperl and OHKO it. Both Ferroseed and Munchlax can survive any of Clamperl's attacks with enough investment in Special Defense and OHKO it back with Bullet Seed or Return, respectively. Mantyke can also survive any attack bar Hidden Power Electric and OHKO Clamperl back with a little bit of prior damage.

Meditite is a great check to Clamperl with its powerful priority attacks. After a Shell Smash, Meditite can easily pick off Clamperl with a Fake Out or two. Mienfoo and Croagunk also work; however, they are significantly weaker, so without some residual damage, (comma) it may take a few sacrifices to bring Clamperl down. Sucker Punch users like Stunky and Pawniard will both easily kill a Shell Smash-boosted Clamperl, although the mindgames that come with Sucker Punch may be unappealing and are risky against competent players. Timburr can pick off Clamperl as well with Mach Punch, but since it won't flinch like Fake Out does, Clamperl needs to be very weakened to be KOed.

Both Misdreavus and Gligar will outspeed a +2 Timid Clamperl if they are holding a Choice Scarf and can hit it with Thunderbolt and Earthquake, respectively. Similarly, Chlorophyll Pokemon such as Bellsprout and Petilil will easily outspeed Clamperl in the sun and can OHKO it with SolarBeam or Seed Bomb. Choice Scarf Chinchou, Mienfoo, and Houndour can oustpeed Modest Clamperl after a boost, but will be outsped and easily OHKOed by Timid versions.

wow.

(2/2)

(makeup) · May 13, 2011

This is obviously done, but With DeepSeaTooth, Chinchou isn't going to be surviving Surf anytime soon. HP Grass is kind of useless IMO. I've calced it before.

edit: Clamperl @ Deepseatooth (248 EVs, Neutral Nature, +2) Surf vs Chinchou (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 116.6 - 137.5% (28 - 33 HP)

then what's the point of HP Grass?

Aeron Ee1 · May 13, 2011

wooper, apparently...

Elevator Music · May 13, 2011

It's really there for bulky Water-types in general (like Slowpoke etc). I suppose it would beat the rare Eviolite Chinchou that Surf misses out on? I'd much rather guarantee I can kill Chinchou than run HP Electric for the basically non-existent Mantyke I guess. IDK does the rest of QC care about this or can I just mark it as done?

EDIT: Also thanks for the GP checks guys, I've updated the OP with the changes.

(makeup) · May 13, 2011

Against Water Absorb Wooper:

Clamperl @ Deepseatooth (248 EVs, Neutral Nature, +2) Ice Beam vs Wooper @ Evolution Stone (236/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 136 - 164% (34 - 41 HP)

Against Unaware Wooper:

Clamperl @ Deepseatooth (248 EVs, Neutral Nature) Surf vs Wooper @ Evolution Stone (236/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 100 - 124% (25 - 31 HP)

Against standard Slowpoke:

Clamperl @ Deepseatooth (248 EVs, Neutral Nature, +2) Surf vs Slowpoke @ Evolution Stone (196/36 EVs, Neutral Nature): 75 - 89.2% (21 - 25 HP)

~~~

Wooper dies to Ice Beam, and Slowpoke will always die to Surf with three layers of Spikes. Either way, HP Electric is superior. After all, Eviolite Chinchou is pretty non-existant since Mantyke plays its role a lot better. Surf can even kill Slowpoke after SR if you opt for HP Fire.

I don't want to cause an argument, but I'm really convinced that the last slot should look like this:

Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Electric

Zephyr · May 13, 2011

I understand where Charmander is coming from, and I kinda agree if those calculations are correct.

Al_Alchemist · May 13, 2011

HP Fire should still take second priority even if that's the case imo, you forget that Slowpoke has Regeneration which nullifies spikes damage, and even then, you really can't assume you'd get even 2 layers of spikes, let alone three (especially in LC). HP Fire only covers Ferroseed really, while HP Grass / Electric guarantees a OHKO on plenty of Water-Types you otherwise wouldn't.

Side note that HP Electric covers Tentacool, who while it can't do too much back, is a much common threat than Mantyke. However, you would fail to ohko Chinchou pre and post (post needs Stealth Rock) Shell Smash with Surf, whereas HP Grass would OHKO pre boost with Deepseatooth. Chinchou is also way more common that the previous two combined, so HP Grass should still remain the main option imo.

Chlorophyll Pokemon such as Bellsprout and Petilil will easily outspeed Clamperl in the sun and can OHKO it with SolarBeam or Seed Bomb.

Petilil reaches a max of 13 Speed with Timid like Clamperl, as well as many other Chlorophyll Pokemon, and Bellsprout a handful of times rests on 13 as well (though usually goes to 14). So probably change it to only mention Bellsprout or Oddish as common chlorophyll outspeeders post Shell Smash.

(makeup) · May 14, 2011

HP Grass is 100% useless. Surf kills everything that HP Grass gets that HP Electric doesn't. If anything, take out HP Grass with HP Electric for sure.

And if you actually look at the calc I provided, you would see that after a Shell Smash, Surf does at least 116.6% to Chinchou, so you don't need to make up pretend calcs :/

Umm, since when does Regeneration nullify Spikes? Regeneration heals upon switching out, not in. Spikes will always just hit again.
With Stealth Rock, Surf has a 9% chance to OHKO Poke. With a layer of Spikes added, it's 100%. With two layers of Spikes, it's a 57% chance. Also, remember that Slowpoke can't anything to Clamperl, so we can just Shell Smash again and do at least 110.7% with Surf.

I stand by my argument that HP Fire / HP Electric is the most appropriate choice for the last slot.

Al_Alchemist · May 14, 2011

Oof, I did 51 Spa instead of 68 (I never do pretend calcs :/) since I forgot it doubles instead of +4, also sorry on the Regeneration thing -.-.

Anyway, HP Grass still does OHKO Chinchou preboost with Deepseatooth, whereas Surf definitely fails. Looking at stats, Chinchou is #10 compared to Tenta being #31 and Mantyke being #60 and its overall usage is more than 2x of the latter two, so I suppose its more personal preference, but chances are you'd want HP Grass more than HP Electric if you play the way EM describes.

Also, is there any pokemon that gets hit by HP Fire significantly harder (significantly as in changing a 2HKO to a OHKO yada) than Surf and Ice Beam besides Ferroseed? It still seems that HP Grass/Electric is superior, because honestly getting up a layer of Stealth Rocks and Spikes is definitely not easy in LC. Without HP Electric/Grass you'd get most likely walled and killed by things Frillish (Slowpoke isn't the best example of a specially bulky Water-Type).

(makeup) · May 14, 2011

Umm, why are we even considering pre-boost? Chinchou just outspeeds and OHKOs you regardless of what Hidden Power you have.

How is getting layers up hard? Gligar outspeeds most of LC and can easily set up SR. Dwebble with Sturdy always gets SR and Spikes up on something it outspeeds.

HP Grass is still useless :/

Nope, Ferroseed is the only one. It's also on over 50% of LC teams iirc (don't have the stats with me right now)

Al_Alchemist · May 14, 2011

"Umm, why are we even considering pre-boost? Chinchou just outspeeds and OHKOs you regardless of what Hidden Power you have."

DeepSeaTooth Clamperl can be sent out early- and mid-game to fire off powerful attacks in order to wear down its checks or get easy kills. It should only use Shell Smash once all the opposing priority users, faster Choice Scarf users, and other checks are gone.

Mostly for predicting switch ins.

"How is getting layers up hard? Gligar outspeeds most of LC and can easily set up SR. Dwebble with Sturdy always gets SR and Spikes up on something it outspeeds."

It's one of those good on paper bad on field kind of things, Taunt Gligar has been getting pretty popular and usually you'd be put in situations of getting swept while trying to set up so its not an easy thing to do unless your team is heavy stallish or something.

"HP Grass is still useless :/"

Now that I think about it, HP Grass does really only have the utility of being able to OHKO Chinchou preboost on Deepseatooth, but I'd still prefer it for predicting switch ins, along with Tenta and Mantyke being so uncommon. Although on Eviolite it's probably the superior option for a Hidden Power, when taking usage into account.

"Nope, Ferroseed is the only one. It's also on over 50% of LC teams iirc (don't have the stats with me right now)"

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3447089
| 1 | Gligar | 1178 | 45.4475 |
| 2 | Misdreavus | 1158 | 44.6759 |
| 3 | Meditite | 1003 | 38.6960 |
| 4 | Scraggy | 798 | 30.7870 |
| 5 | Carvanha | 774 | 29.8611 |
| 6 | Ferroseed | 600 | 23.1481 |
| 7 | Mienfoo | 492 | 18.9815 |
| 8 | Dwebble | 472 | 18.2099 |
| 9 | Slowpoke | 442 | 17.0525 |
| 10 | Chinchou | 434 | 16.7438 |

Waters as a whole are more common than Ferroseed, making HP Grass/Electric the superior over HP Fire.

edit to charmander's edit: reason "ferroseed was used 600 times last round while slowpoke 442 frillish 253 clamperl 220 tentacool 127 mantyke 39".

Also I agree with HP Electric being superior on Deepseatooth although it has more merit on Eviolite since without HP Grass it can't OHKO a Chinchou even with SR.

On the Spikes SR thing, I suppose its more subjective, I find it really easy to prevent hazards with my team, but it might not be the case with other players. Dwebble does usually pull it off easy though, since it only needs to switch in on something slower and it can usually get off two layers before death, thanks to Sturdy.

(makeup) · May 14, 2011

I'm saying HP Electric is good, HP Fire is good, HP Grass sucks.

I pretty much said this on IRC, but I'll say it again for EM. Why would you HP Grass on the switch when you can just Shell Smash and kill Chinchou with Surf? The outcome is the same barring the fact that now you can sweep and still beat Ferroseed.

Is it that hard not to set up on Taunt Gligar? Nope. It's good on paper and on the field; I get at least 1 SR and 1 Spikes every game I play with Dwebble. There are many, many ways around Gligar, and you still get something on the switch in.

And according to your stats, Ferroseed is more common than Water-types as a whole.
Plus they're outdated.

edit: Al and I agreed that the last slot should look like this: Hidden Power Electric / Hidden Power Fire

ask him if you want to know why

Elevator Music · May 15, 2011

OK I updated the first set with that change and slightly tweaked a few of the sentences (along with the fix that Al pointed out), so this should be done now. I suppose GP could give it another look over but I only changed like 2 sentences and I think they're fine so....

Clamperl (Analysis)

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sup geodudes

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sup geodudes

hunter

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Life Stream

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Life Stream

Physics and Math \O/

Physics and Math \O/

Physics and Math \O/

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