Banning Moody in Ubers

[Jibaku*]

(In other words, banning Moody in every Smogon-sponsored metagame by adding it to Evasion Clause)

Even Arceus trembles before Bidoof now...

The luck factor Moody creates is highly detrimental to the Ubers metagame; it takes a significant amount of skill out of the game and turns the entire match into a dice roll. A Pokemon that can sweep any team after one turn of set up undeniably broken. In addition, it's almost impossible to prepare for Moody teams because once a Pokemon gets that evasion boost and starts spamming Protect and Substitute all one can do is attack and hope for the best...

It’s incredibly easy to switch in any one of the five Pokemon with Moody and simply use Protect, Substitute, Protect, Substitute until you’ve garnered enough offensive boosts to sweep, or, more importantly, enough evasion boosts to laugh as the mighty Arceus tries in vain to break your Substitutes. Smeargle can even pass these boosts if something that threatens it comes in, after it augments them with any boosting move in the game. Even if you don’t get some good boosts with the the first Pokemon, you still have 4 more tries.

Aura Sphere and Thunder may be brought up, but the former is not widely distributed and the latter is weather dependent. If one would defend these moves as reasons to not ban Moody, then the Evasion Clause should be removed entirely; which is what I propose Moody be banned under.
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Here is a team firecape used to get 1.3k rating (#9 on leaderboard at the time) in around 2-3 hours. Try it for yourself... (this was pre-Smeargle release)
http://pastebin.com/ZuH9eAz9

(firecape and GreatSage helped me write this)

(A potential issue with this proposal is that it could end up banning Pokemon from Ubers in future generations, but I guess we'll rethink this once we get there)

[shrang]

I concur with this, Moody is just too annoying for any metagame to face. Say what you will about Ubers being "only a banlist", but that doesn't stop us banning evasion moves.

Like it or not, I swear to God that Ubers is the most balanced metagame in all of 5th gen right now o_0. The only stain on that is Moody.

[Chou Toshio]

I still think there should be distinction between bans based on power and those based on uncompetitiveness.

So yeah, disallowing Moody from Ubers makes total sense to me.

[barry4ever]

I agree with this 100%. I usually don't post in PR but today I felt this was necessary. I am an avid Ubers battler and have been battling quite a few Moody teams on the ladder and to be honest its kind of impossible to counter Moody now that Smeargle is released. It is ridiculously easy to set up to Spore something, set up a Substitute and BP it to something like Dialga. Even phazing fails if it gets an evasion boost, so yeah Moody has to go.

PS: I <3 Jibaku for making this topic !

[Calm Pokemaster]

The luck factor Moody creates is highly detrimental to the Ubers metagame; it takes a significant amount of skill out of the game and turns the entire match into a dice roll.

This. While competitive battling involves some amount of luck, Moody is just pushing it one step too far. What upsets me is that even the most well-made team can fall to a novice who knows to exploit Moody to his / her advantage. And exploiting it is not at all difficult. As barry said, it is just laughably easy to set up with Protect, Substitute, and Spore, and the icing on the cake is that Moody boosts can even be Baton Passed to a much more dangerous threat!

In a nutshell, Moody takes a large chunk out of the skill aspect of the game. I support this fully, and look forward to playing in a Moody-less Ubers metagame.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I've always supported the idea that Moody/Inconsistent should be a part of Evasion Clause.

(I also think acupressure and sand veil / snow cloak should get the same fate, but we'll take this one step at a time)

[Toaster]

Honestly, I'm not sure why this hasn't been looked into earlier at the time of its banishment from OU. As Moody not only defies Evasion Clause but is highly detrimental to several aspects of competitive battling itself (Strategic Thinking etc.) I highly support and agree with this idea henceforth.

[Rising_Dusk]

Moody is as much a part of evasion clause as Acupressure is—the same amount, in fact. SDS is right on the button there. Either we expand the evasion clause to remove anything that can influence evasion, including those with only the chance to, or we keep it as-is in that it only bans things that reliably boost evasion.

That said, I don't disagree with the topic being discussed here. Despite that the Uber metagame has no bans theoretically, there are still clear attempts at balancing it through the use of our standard clauses. If it be through the evasion clause, this removes everything from Sand Veil to Acupressure, including Moody. Or, alternatively, we could just create a Moody clause if the idea of banning Acupressure really bothers everyone. Whatever the solution, I think it's certainly not a bad idea given the effects of Moody on a metagame.

[RBG*]

Moody is only broken because it is +2/-1. If it was +1/-1 (or maybe even +2/-2), then it wouldn't be broken imo.

That's why I feel Moody shouldn't be banned under evasion clause. That being said, I have no problem with it being banned in Ubers.

[Moo]

To me, Moody brings up the question: Is Ubers a banlist or a tier. Ubers is officially a banlist, meaning it's an environment where things are supposed to be broken. There are overpowered Pokemon in Ubers which are very easy to sweep with; an idiot can sweep with Extremekiller Arcues. Wobbufett can trap any Pokemon, and guarantee a kill if they are choiced, or guarantee a free turn to set up with the aforementioned sweeper among others if not. The element of skill (and the fun part imo) is learning to deal with these Pokemon.

Psych Up, Unaware, Perfect accuracy moves, Shedinja (lol) all spring to mind when I think of Moody Pokemon. I know they seem like irrational counters, but if Moody really is broken, then I think it would be better to prepare for it than just ban it straight away.

Aura Sphere and Thunder may be brought up, but the former is not widely distributed and the latter is weather dependent.

I disagree with this because Aura Sphere is a common move on Mewtwo and Kyogre is the most used Pokemon in the tier.

Keep in mind that it's only a 1/7 chance of the evasion boost. (even better after protect I suppose but I'm not in a maths atm). I don't think Moody should be banned under evasion clause, because only 1/7th of its effect violates it. I'm sure it would be broken (maybe not to such an extent) without the possibility of raising a Pokemon's evasion, and what would we do then?

If Moody is going to be banned, it should be banned on the grounds that it grants wins based on luck.

Just my opinion~

And why have scarf roserade with Rest and Leech Seed? o.o

[firecape]

Originally Posted by Fat Mooo

To me, Moody brings up the question: Is Ubers a banlist or a tier. Ubers is officially a banlist, meaning it's an environment where things are supposed to be broken. There are overpowered Pokemon in Ubers which are very easy to sweep with; an idiot can sweep with Extremekiller Arcues. Wobbufett can trap any Pokemon, and guarantee a kill if they are choiced, or guarantee a free turn to set up with the aforementioned sweeper among others if not. The element of skill (and the fun part imo) is learning to deal with these Pokemon.

Why can't it be both? Theres nothing saying it can't be and thats pretty much how it is viewed and played. Also, I really can't stress this enough, ubers check ubers. Extremekiller is quite easy to sweep with, but it has many checks. Lugia, Groudon, Giratina, etc. Everything in Ubers is checkable; whether you carry that check is your problem. Moody defies this statement, however.

Originally Posted by Fat moo

Psych Up, Unaware, Perfect accuracy moves, Shedinja (lol) all spring to mind when I think of Moody Pokemon. I know they seem like irrational counters, but if Moody really is broken, then I think it would be better to prepare for it than just ban it straight away.

I disagree with this because Aura Sphere is a common move on Mewtwo and Kyogre is the most used Pokemon in the tier.

Psych Up can miss and either way its just a toss up. It basically turns it into a CM war, with the Psych Up user at a disadvantage because it has to repeatedly use it (and hit) to keep up with the boosts the Moody Pokemon has. None of the Unaware Pokemon are really viable in Ubers. And Shedinja is, as you put it, lol.

You want to carry Aura Sphere Mewtwo? Well if I get a Speed boost I can go through a cycle of Protect + Substitute and quite possibly get either enough Specially Defensive boosts to shrug off Aura Sphere, or enough offensive boosts to demolish Mewtwo; or even a combination of the two.

Keep in mind that it's only a 1/7 chance of the evasion boost. (even better after protect I suppose but I'm not in a maths atm). I don't think Moody should be banned under evasion clause, because only 1/7th of its effect violates it. I'm sure it would be broken (maybe not to such an extent) without the possibility of raising a Pokemon's evasion, and what would we do then?

If Moody is going to be banned, it should be banned on the grounds that it grants wins based on luck.

Just my opinion~

And why have scarf roserade with Rest and Leech Seed? o.o

It doesn't really matter that it's a 1/7 chance, as Greatsage said on IRC:

<&GreatSage> 1/7 +evasion doesn't seem that high, until you realize that a. it will have several chances to set up, b. +speed, if you get it, will allow you to stall indefinitely
<&GreatSage> and +speed isn't even necessary
<&GreatSage> once you end a turn with an intact substitute, you've started the cycle

We proposed for it to be banned under the Evasion clause because Evasion is probably the most threatening aspect of it, and that way we don't need to have anymore clauses. It doesn't have to be banned under the Evasion Clause, but thats just the simplest route to take. A Moody clause would be fine too, it just needs to go. I really don't care how its banned, but suspect tests (for ubers) or the like are just stupid because that opens up a can of worms...

Also, everything on that Scarf Roserade besides Toxic Spikes is filler.

[Moo]

Yeah that kinda shitslammed my post. Anyway, if it's the simplest way to get rid of it, and everyone else is ok with it then so am I.

[locopoke]

Wait so is the Arceus test after the Moody ban?

[Jibaku*]

We are not, and never, doing an Arceus test. There's a reason I didn't mention suspect testing...

[ballabrown24]

it appears as said sarcasm was not the detected by the following users: jibaku


edit: so really ubers need a clear definition instead of being both a banlist and tier

[firecape]

It appears that user: ballabrown24 does not realize locopoke was not kidding. (Of course he expressed his views in a trollish manner, but that's locopoke for you...)

edit: so really ubers need a clear definition instead of being both a banlist and tier

I really don't see a need for that, it just over-complicates this whole thing and will cause nothing to get done. This is about banning Moody -- end. If you feel other stuff needs to be discussed then I think a separate thread would be more appropriate.

[jrrrrrrr]

If we ban Moody under Evasion Clause, we would also have to ban Sand Stream + Sand Veil, as well as Snow Warning + Snow Cloak. This thread should be more about redefining Evasion Clause and less about "is Ubers even a competitive tier?" If we ban something under Evasion Clause then we can completely sidestep the latter argument, which I think is worth doing.

[Chou Toshio]

OU is both a ban list and a tier, the same with UU (eventually). All the tiers exist as 2 different entities-- as a ban list for the lower tiers and as a competitive game. Obviously the OU "list" and the OU metagame are somewhat separate entities (with these "so-called" UU Pokes appearing in OU more frequently than ever!). Ubers is no different in this regard.

As for Evasion Clause, the biggest difference between Moody and Acupuncture is that you don't actually have to do anything to get the boost-- you aren't using a move hoping to get it. Being able to protect/sub to protect yousefl WHILE still hoping for the boost makes this a totally different beast. Sand Veil/Snow Cloak are in the same barrel, but frankly Sand Veil is one of the primary things on the chopping board (or at least Garchomp is) this round of OU, and I definitely foresee Snow Cloak being a huge problem in UU (it already is, people just haven't jumped on it yet because of much worse stuff).

Frankly, I don't think I'm the only one who wouldn't mind seeing all evasion boosting abilities get the tosser. Well, like SDS I wouldn't mind seeing Acupuncture go really, and just expand Evasion Clause to cover all reasonable evasion modifying moves.

[Deck Knight]

firecape:

If Psych Up is missing, that's bad coding in PO. The move is supposed to have "cannot miss" accuracy and it ignores Substitute to boot. Though is still doesn't affect the fact that just turns the match into a mutual evasion war rather than a one-sided one.

jrrrrr:

We don't at present ban Snow Cloak or Sand Veil under Evasion Clause. Moody operates based on granting stat boosts, whereas Slow Cloak and Sand Veil add a 20% evasion effect independent of boosts, much like Guts' Attack boost. If Evasion Clause were defined as any move or ability that raises Evasion with stat stages, those abilities would be unaffected.

[jrrrrrrr]

Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight

jrrrrr:

We don't at present ban Snow Cloak or Sand Veil under Evasion Clause. Moody operates based on granting stat boosts, whereas Slow Cloak and Sand Veil add a 20% evasion effect independent of boosts, much like Guts' Attack boost. If Evasion Clause were defined as any move or ability that raises Evasion with stat stages, those abilities would be unaffected.

I know this, which is why I think we should change the definition of Evasion Clause to include anything a player does to intentionally boost their Evasion, whether it's a 100% chance...or a 1/7 chance like with Acupressure/Moody...or a 20% boost like with the Evasion abilities. I personally think a permanent Evasion boost a la Sand Veil is much more relevant to competitive pokemon than Acupuncture. I see no reason to treat them differently.

[Jibaku*]

I just want to throw this out there

Banning Sand Veil under Evasion Clause bans Garchomp (and many others) from Ubers. As Moody is currently not any Pokemon's sole released ability (and not for a few more years to come, at least), I have no issues suggesting Moody Ban under Evasion Clause.

[jrrrrrrr]

Originally Posted by Fat Jibaku

I just want to throw this out there

Banning Sand Veil under Evasion Clause bans Garchomp (and many others) from Ubers. As Moody is currently not any Pokemon's sole released ability (and not for a few more years to come, at least), I have no issues suggesting Moody Ban under Evasion Clause.

I was under the impression that the ban relevant to Garchomp would be Sand Stream + Sand Veil on the same team, or Sandstorm + Sand Veil. But if we were just going to ban the evasion ability and not the enabler then I agree with you completely. Thanks for clarifying that.

[Mario With Lasers]

Originally Posted by Fat Jibaku

(A potential issue with this proposal is that it could end up banning Pokemon from Ubers in future generations, but I guess we'll rethink this once we get there)

Well, I seriously don't see why this would be a problem, if even fucking Bidoof can abuse Moody nowadays...


I don't play Ubers since lol November but I don't see a problem with banning Moody if the players believe it's broken/"uncompetitive", as the same argument was used for its banning from OU. I believe we should have a "Bullshit Clause" only for Moody, however, as the ability doesn't reliably boost Evasion and I'm completely against banning Sand Veil/Snow Cloak.

[Fireburn]

Originally Posted by Fat Jibaku

I just want to throw this out there

Banning Sand Veil under Evasion Clause bans Garchomp (and many others) from Ubers. As Moody is currently not any Pokemon's sole released ability (and not for a few more years to come, at least), I have no issues suggesting Moody Ban under Evasion Clause.

Just posting to say I agree with this entirely.

[Rising_Dusk]

I have been asked by all of the leaders of the Uber tier to ban Moody from the Uber tier, and so I have under a "Moody Clause". This has ramifications in that it bans Moody from all tiers on Smogon, however, aside from Uber (up until just now) that was the case anyway. Hopefully this is satisfactory for everyone. Note that this also carries over to the DW Uber tier.