Togekiss (ubers analysis) (placeholder)

It's Togekiss! Skeleton will be up finished, latest by Sunday or by September 11.
ALSO, Togekiss wishes a special thanks to Oglemi for properly doing caps and spacing for me without me even asking her!
Now back to the analysis.

Togekiss

[Overview]

• Togekiss has a usable sp atk
• 85/115 Spdef bases enable to tank special hits
• Greatly suffers from the 4-moveslot syndrome
• Slow by uber standards
• Access to a very diverse supportive and offensive movepool, as well as roost, and baton pass.
• Access to thunder wave and body slam helps somewhat alleviate its low speed
• Access to serence grace enables it to hax things to death
• Competes with jirachi for a role of bulky paraflinch, mew for baton pass, and chansey (to an extent) for cleric,
• Sr weak
• Gets flying STAB, which is much better then steel STAB


[SET]
name: Specially Defensive Nasty Plot
move 1: Thunder Wave / Body Slam
move 2: Roost
move 3: Air Slash
move 4: Nasty Plot
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD


Credits to trickroom, who first used this, (I decided not to slash it with paralysis support, since 1 move made a huge difference, if liked i can put it with the above set)
Why this set deserves to be on the site:
• Outclassed by virtually nothing since togekiss is the only pokemon that recieved serence grace, nasty plot, and air slash.
• Can put opponents in a world of hurt after a boost or two.
• Not outclassed by growth skymin since this works, in sun and rain, and has far superior bulk then that compared to skymin's.
• Cannot be revenged by scarf ogre unless entry hazards are present.

Set comments:

• Togekiss's fantastic bulk can be used to set up and attempt to perform a slow sweep, and spread paralysis.
• Roost is reliable recovery for togekiss, thunderwave paralyzes non-ground/magic bounce pokes with a 100% chance of hitting while body slam cannot hit ghosts but hits magic bounce and ground pokemon.
• Air Slash is a good STAB move that enables togekiss to have a pretty high chance of flinching the opponent, and when used with thunderwave will have people throw tantrums.
• Nasty plot is the crux of the set, raising togekisses sp atk by 2 stages, doubling it's already high base 120 sp atk, and causing it to do massive damage, having a good chance at 4hkoing 252 sp def eviolite neutral nature chansey after 2 boosts, and 3hkoing 252 sp def neutral natured blissey after 2. This may sound pitiful but airslash stopping recovery will lead the blobs to their doom.

Additional comments:

• Togekiss can opt to run 94 speed evs and place the rest in special defense to outspeed neutral natured non-invested base 90s. This helps it defeat things like groudon while maintaining special bulk but it is now 2hkoed by many things like scarf palkia's spacial rend and non LO-ed darkrai's + 2 dark pulse.
• Togekiss dislikes stealth rock being on the field so it appreciates magic bounce or spin support to keep hazards of the field.

[SET]
name: Baton Pass
move 1: Baton Pass
move 2: Encore
move 3: Air Slash / Substitute / Roost
move 4: Nasty Plot / Work Up
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm OR Bold OR Timid
evs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe OR 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD OR 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Why this set deserves to be on the site:
• Only usable uber pokemon other then smeargle that can learn the combination of baton pass + encore (lopunny but... really).
• Encore prevents phazing by forcing an opposing pokemon that has moved before ex. sub lugia dragon tailing cannot set up a sub and hope to dragon tail next turn. Encore also turns things into set-up bait. Something mew cannot boast.
• Sub's are bulky enough to withstand a dragon tail from a 252 atk neutral natured gira-o, with max defense investment.

Set comments:
• Togekiss gets access to baton pass and encore helping it safely pass to the reciever of its boosts.
• Encore can lock phazers that have moved using another move, ex. sub dragon tail lugia, cannot dragon tail and get a sub up on togekiss. Encore also provides time for togekiss to set up.
• The third moveslot is a hard choice to make. Air slash provides reliable STAB, lets you abuse the boost while you stay in, and prevents you from being complete taunt bait. Substitute with maximum investment in bulk enables it's sub to live 2 dragon tails from a 252 neutral natured gira-o, and it doesnt make togekiss rely completely on encore. Roost provides reliable recovery enabling it to set up infront of things like a scarf palkia (assuming togekiss has max sp def) solely because of the fact it struggles to 2hko it with max sp def.
• The fourth moveslot depends on what togekiss wil want to pass. If togekiss is going to pass to a mixed sweeper then work up is the reccomended option, if special attack is what is wanted, then nasty plot is the way to go.

Additional comments:

• Togekiss generally works well with anything fast or anything scarfed.
• Scarfogre deserves a special mention since it gets the power capable of smashing through teams like specs ogre while still being able to outspeed all non-scarfed things.
• Espeon works well in conjunction with this as it is able to catch lugia's switching in on togekiss that have not moved and kindly shuffle the opposing team. Espeon also helps keep stealth rock of the field courtesy of magic bounce.
• Togekiss can run 94 speed evs instead of 252 with timid to outspeed neutral natured base 90s that do not invest in speed, this will help it encore pokemon like groudon before they move easing prediction a lot.
• Togekiss can serve as a sort of anti-lead as it turns dialga and groudon that do not roar it out on turn 1 into set up bait as they are encored into a support move.


Teammates and Counters:

• Blissey walls the nasty plot set and can attempt to poison togekiss limiting its lifespan, if its unlucky though... its not going to be happy.
• Manaphy can in the rain can set up on togekiss without fear of thunder wave or body slam but must be wary of being encored into a set-up move.
• Lugia can do a job similar to blissey if it switches in safely but can set up a sub before it is paralyzed, and safely toxic stall, however it is set-up bait for baton pass.
• Heatran can taunt and annoy but dislikes fast togekiss and flinch hax.
• If ho-oh gets in safely togekiss will be whim to its sacred fire's unless it's sub is predicted and encored.
• Stall breaking mewtwo runs over all of it's set if togekiss has twave over body slam.
• Togekiss cannot take specs's spouts or specs blue flares powered in their correspoinding whethers from kyogre and reshiram.
• BU dialga easily sets up on togekiss with nasty plot and can dragon tail the boosts away, but hates flinchax if it becomes too bad and is set-up for baton pass kiss.
• Mamoswine resists paralysis and can ohko with icicle crash, it doesnt mind paralysis much either due to access to ice shard.
• Garchomp cannot be paralyzed by twave and can throw stones at togekiss or swords dance but must be wary of body slam and being encored into swords dance.
• Steelceus and rockceus laugh at most of togekiss's attacks but dont want to be encored into a set up move and the two can be flinched to death unless the ladder is in sandstorm.
• Tyranitar deserves a special mention due to its resist and ability to ohko togekiss
• Lustrous orb palkia takes advantage of the paralysis and can take a specs blue flare and spout, while ohkoing heatran with surf.
• Groudon provides sun which enables togekiss to release fire blast and sets up rocks. Togekiss can also take a specs spout in drought.
• Xatu and espeon can prevent stealth rocks from ever entering the field, while walling blissey, and setting up light screen so that togekiss can live specs spouts and blue flares, the ladder deserves a special mention since it gets access to baton pass and can continously transfer boosts with togekiss.
• Ferrothorn can abuse encore locked manaphy and 2hko them with power whip, while setting up hazards to help togekiss live specs spout.

Dream World:

• Togekiss gets super luck through Dream world which is inferior to serence grace. However togekiss's usefulness runs up trmendously as it is able to counter chandelure and genesect, while paralyzing the lati twins. A feat that cannot be accompished by jirachi ironically because of its steel typing.

I really don't see how it can do anything in ubers besides anti ghost arceus... Jirachi is just better.

That's one of its niches, it also can baton pass and unlike the other haxers it very easily beats ferrothorn. Jirachi lacks roost, and it doesnt get flying stab, nasty plot, a way to boost its attack stat, heal bell and baton pass. There are probably more in there too, that I haven't listed. Ironically because of the flying STAB it can beat and cripple scarf ogre if it predicts the switch or has a sub up.

Also solid check to darkrai taking + 2 pulses easily and paraflinching to death, can alleviate the sleep on team with heal bell later. It also easily gets though ferrothorn because of its access to aura sphere and fire blast (it probably could just be similar to will o wisp too lol). It also beats many scarfers (with the exception of deo-a but no one uses that), and decently counters most of shaymin-s's sets (with the exception of specs).

But the thing is what can it take a hit from?

As far as I know, user trickroom actually likes Togekiss quite a bit, I think he used some sort of Twave + Nasty Plot set. Not gonna approve just because of that though, I'll need to test it first before I can say my piece!

But the thing is what can it take a hit from?

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UH its special bulk is actually quite decent, it avoids a 2hko from + 2 darkrai's dark pulse, and is actually not ohkoed by timid scarf water spout from kyogre. It even can take 2 spacial rends from a palkia (assuming its scarf) and roost the damage of. Tie that special bulk with its really-somewhat diverse movepool, a reliable recovery move, serence grace, and flying STAB you'll notice you've got a potent threat on your hand.

It's assets should be more understandable once i finish the skeleton, I intend on laying the whole analysis at once rather then doing it set by set.

EDIT: Should've answered this earlier Theorymon, but trickroom's togekiss that he used is on here but it isnt receiving its own set, its under specially defensive.

timid 4hp / 252spa / 252spe drizzle waterspout vs 252hp / 252sp.def calm togikiss=71.39-84.22 thats a OHKO after sealth rock
plus groundon shits on you all day long.
Any thing with sub will shit on you.
Any physical attacker in general shits on you.
Reshiram kill you with blue flare.
Your setup bait to manaphy if it's raining.
I could go on all day togikiss is just not viable in ubers

timid 4hp / 252spa / 252spe drizzle waterspout vs 252hp / 252sp.def calm togikiss=71.39-84.22 thats a OHKO after sealth rock
plus groundon shits on you all day long.
Any thing with sub will shit on you.
Any physical attacker in general shits on you.
Reshiram kill you with blue flare.
Your setup bait to manaphy if it's raining.

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The only thing I agree with the above is the manaphy statement.

Groudon is paralyzed by body slam so its not anxious to get in there, also groudon hates burns (fire blast = 60% chance at that). Subs annoy togekiss but users of sub cant have their sub up for long, only thing that can hold its sub is lugia, and lugia can't touch togekiss if it has sub or heal bell. If togekiss has nasty plot and sub lugia becomes set up bait for it if it lacks whirlwind. Physical attackers also don't enjoy switching in on a twave or a fire blast simply because of the risk of status. Reshiram doesnt enjoy switching into status, and it needs specs and sun to ensure the ohko.

Manaphy turns togekiss into set up bait, but togekiss can just sub up and pass out to groudon to remove sun and dragon tail away boosts if it boosted. If it attacked you've got sun up, and manaphy is scared. Also not much enjoys being parahaxed by nasty plot boosted air slashes even with no investment they can do a decent amount of damage.

You can't have an opinion made about it without it being tested first actually, as it sounds horrible due to its bases but it can work simply because of the diversity of the sets it runs, with its special bulk.

Mr.lol said:

The only thing I agree with the above is the manaphy statement.

Groudon is paralyzed by body slam so its not anxious to get in there, also groudon hates burns (fire blast = 60% chance at that). Subs annoy togekiss but users of sub cant have their sub up for long, only thing that can hold its sub is lugia, and lugia can't touch togekiss if it has sub or heal bell. If togekiss has nasty plot and sub lugia becomes set up bait for it if it lacks whirlwind. Physical attackers also don't enjoy switching in on a twave or a fire blast simply because of the risk of status. Reshiram doesnt enjoy switching into status, and it needs specs and sun to ensure the ohko.

Manaphy turns togekiss into set up bait, but togekiss can just sub up and pass out to groudon to remove sun and dragon tail away boosts if it boosted. If it attacked you've got sun up, and manaphy is scared. Also not much enjoys being parahaxed by nasty plot boosted air slashes even with no investment they can do a decent amount of damage.

You can't have an opinion made about it without it being tested first actually, as it sounds horrible due to its bases but it can work simply because of the diversity of the sets it runs, with its special bulk.

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If manaphy tail glows as you swich to groudon even in the sun +3 surf still KOs groudon.Lugia can toxic stall you and Ho-oh subs can't be broken either.

If manaphy tail glows as you swich to groudon even in the sun +3 surf still KOs groudon.Lugia can toxic stall you and Ho-oh subs can't be broken either.

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Subs annoy togekiss but users of sub cant have their sub up for long, only thing that can hold its sub is lugia, and lugia can't touch togekiss if it has sub or heal bell.

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Manaphy turns togekiss into set up bait, but togekiss can just sub up and pass out to groudon to remove sun and dragon tail away boosts if it boosted.

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+3 surf is breaking a sub then not groudon, I meant togekiss has a sub up and manaphy wants to abuse it in that scenario togekiss can baton pass out. I forgot about ho-oh it also counters togekiss, thanks to its huge 154 special bulk <.<. Still fears coming in on a twave or body slam though and that will hamper ho-oh's progress tremendously.

EDIT: TOGEKISS GETS ENORE :D It isn't destroyed by things with sub (how could i forget encore D:)

Please people, don't comment on Togekiss's viability until we actually see what the set is!

Part of the skeleton is now up, I finished the sets but haven't gotten to comment on everything or mention specific counters for any specific set. So may take a little longer, all the sets are up though that I intended to have for qc checks. Also need to finish formatting.

Commenting on its viability is officially open.

• Togekiss's base 85/115 special defenses enable it to tank hits very well enabling it to even avoid a 2HKO from a +2 darkia's dark pulse
and cripple it with thunderwave or body slam.

+2life orb dak pulse vs 252hp 252sp.def=61.23-72.19 thats a 2HKO with out rocks...

Eh factor that with focus sash, its most common set is anti lead which is what i was going with, besides it probably will nasty plot the switch in, it's not avoiding paralysis.

EDIT: calc has been completed assuming darkrai's at +2 without LO it does: 154 - 183 (41.18% - 48.93%)

Mr.lol said:

Eh factor that with focus sash, its most common set is anti lead which is what i was going with, besides it probably will nasty plot the switch in, it's not avoiding paralysis.

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Even then you have a small chance to be 3HKOed.

Even then you have a small chance to be 3HKOed.

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What I meant by the not 2hkoed point was that you can roost off the damage of the pulse after stomaching 2 of the pulses, stalling for that parahax while safely avoiding any 2hko from a move that darkrai may fire at it,

Darkrai's still getting paralyzed in every situation that happens, it can in no way reliably check togekiss.

Who ever said darkria checks togikiss?

I am only approving the Nasty Plot Specially Defensive set because that's the only one I tried. For the first set, are there any good reasons to use it over say Chansey or Blissey? Both have superior bulk, can pass huge wishes, can Heal Bell and aren't even afraid of status.

Blissey can use Fire Blast as well to take out Ferrothorn in the sun. You have to show some evidence where Specially Defensive Togekiss is superior to Blissey by providing logs I guess. Also, Togekiss is bulky but it isn't enough to wall some hard hitters like Scarf Kyogre, Specs Dialga, and Scarf Reshiram. Sure Togekiss owns Ghost Arceus like a man but so can both pink blobs. It also faces fierce competition from Ho-OH, who is bulkier and hits a ton harder, can use Thunder Wave as well LOL

To me Nasty Plot + paraflinching is the only reason to use Togekiss really. Mention a spread to outspeed slow base 90s, because Groudon is immune to Thunder Wave. Being faster than Kyogre also allows you to hax RestTalk Kyogre to death if you are lucky enough.

I don't know about the baton passer, I will let the other QC members decide on it. I think Baton Pass is easily foiled by Roars and Whirlwinds from the likes of Lugia/Giratina/Skarmory/Arceus though. Giratina-O's Dragon Tail will break the sub.

Needs a counters section.
-Blissey, Chansey
-Bulk Up Dialga, Specs Dialga can surprise and take out Togekiss through sheer force.
-Ho-Oh subs and it's sub survives Air Slash, it can Sacred Fire Togekiss from there
-Lugia Toxics Togekiss and its pretty much screwed unless you have Heal Bell which won't stop it forever. Lugia can sub too
-Steel Arceus laughs at you bar Fire Blast in the sun, while setting up in your face
-Rock Arceus can nail you with Judgment
-Groudon/Ground Arceus can KO with Stone Edge while being immune to Thunder Wave
-If it's raining Manaphy beats you
-Electric Arceus hits with Thunder or Judgment / Zekrom OHKOes
-Tyranitar will annoy you if you drop Aura Sphere, Stone Edge OHKOes from the CB set

EDIT: Togekiss needs to compete with a whole lot of mons such as Ho-Oh and Jirachi. Have to remove the approval till the other QC members made up a decision.

Groudon is paralyzed by body slam so its not anxious to get in there, also groudon hates burns (fire blast = 60% chance at that)

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Fire Blast has 10% chance of burning, so 20% with Serene Grace.

To add to trickroom's list of counters:
- Garchomp - Immune to Thunder Wave, does heaps of damage with Stone Edge or sets up with Swords Dance
- Mamoswine - Immune to Thunder Wave and OHKOs with Icicle Crash. Even if you paralyse it with Body Slam, it can still kill you with Ice Shard (you'll end up losing).
- Extremekiller - Paralysis is the worst status you can put on the Extremekiller, seeing as the thing does give a crap. Now it can't be Poisoned or burned, and it'll end up Swords Dancing and sweeping.
- Excadrill - Immune to Thunder Wave and resists Air Slash, can set up easily and sweep.

First set is outclassed by Blissey, as trickroom said.

Third set is outclassed by Mew who is faster, has better defensive and Speed stats, and Taunt, which is much more useful than Encore.

I want to test the second set, but it seems like it has an awful lot of checks. It seems useful against stall kind of, but being slower than the base 90's + still losing to Blissey is a bit iffy.

Encore is wierd but it actually works, also it enables things to not set up sub on it, and not set up on it, (arceus encored into cm is lolling as it goes against a groudon, that with manaphy, and a lot of other stuff trickroom said). Encore is currently in the AC for the paralysis support which is a huge advantage it has over blissey, should I place it in the original set? Also base 120 sp atk is much greater then what bliss has to offer.

Mew may have better physical defense and equal special defense but a spikes weakness with an atrocious psychic typing is still pretty bad (I am in no way saying flying is a lot more superior though, just somewhat better).

Also why the QC checks and stamp im not done prepping it for them, still got lots of counters and checks to list <.<. Just trying to get a set to-do-list. Only decided to post it before being finished due to some want for arguements on its viability.

Also Fire blast has a 10% chance to burn? I know some fire-type move had 30% ignore that really odd confusing statement.

EDIT: I'll post logs showing how baton pass and specially defensive support work, just give me some time to look thorugh and save some logs.

Fireburn said:

I want to test the second set, but it seems like it has an awful lot of checks. It seems useful against stall kind of, but being slower than the base 90's + still losing to Blissey is a bit iffy.

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What Fireburn said is actually true though so keep in mind Togekiss might be rejected. I have to remove the approval at the moment, because Togekiss faces severe competition from many Pokemon such as Jirachi, Ho-Oh or even things like Blissey. Let's get real Togekiss's Special Defense seems pretty horrible compare to Ho-Oh's let alone Blissey's.

Togekiss strong advantages over Ho-Oh are not so SR weak, Paraflinch, no Water-weakness and Nasty Plot. However, Ho-Oh hits so hard on turn 1 he doesn't even need a boosting move, and Ho-Oh can also use Thunder Wave himself. Those awful lot of checks doesn't exist in the face of Ho-Oh.

Being slower than base 90s can be solved by a faster spread or Thunder Wave but that reduces Togekiss's bulk. In the baton pass set, make one as the main spread and shift the others to AC. Needs more prove on how the baton passer works, and to be honest, Baton Pass strategies went extinct in Ubers! Togekiss can fit in better on balanced teams, usually with rain to stop things like Grass Arceus, Shaymin-S and Ghost Arceus. To be fair Jirachi can do the exact same thing, has bigger wishes and arguably better typing to boot. Not being set up bait to Ferrothorn/Forretress is a good positive though, so Fireburn should think about that!

Jirachi can have fire punch/thunder/HP fire though, which kinda beats the anti ferro.

Mr.lol said:

Encore is wierd but it actually works, also it enables things to not set up sub on it, and not set up on it, (arceus encored into cm is lolling as it goes against a groudon, that with manaphy, and a lot of other stuff trickroom said). Encore is currently in the AC for the paralysis support which is a huge advantage it has over blissey, should I place it in the original set? Also base 120 sp atk is much greater then what bliss has to offer.

Mew may have better physical defense and equal special defense but a spikes weakness with an atrocious psychic typing is still pretty bad (I am in no way saying flying is a lot more superior though, just somewhat better).

Also why the QC checks and stamp im not done prepping it for them, still got lots of counters and checks to list <.<. Just trying to get a set to-do-list. Only decided to post it before being finished due to some want for arguements on its viability.

Also Fire blast has a 10% chance to burn? I know some fire-type move had 30% ignore that really odd confusing statement.

EDIT: I'll post logs showing how baton pass and specially defensive support work, just give me some time to look thorugh and save some logs.

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The reason the first set is outclassed is because it is so statistically outclassed by Blissey, Chansey, Ho-Oh, and Lugia, all of whom have equivalent or better defenses with no investment, that it just isn't worth using. Togekiss also doesn't take physical hits well and is burdened by Electric- and Ice-weaknesses (and it doesn't have the Speed Lugia does which allows it to circumvent these weaknesses with Roost), which is poor for a special wall. Togekiss also lacks many resistances, unlike Jirachi, who has that amazing Steel-typing going for it.

The third set it outclassed simply because of how much better Mew is as a passer. It can Taunt, pass Rock Polish which allows for actual game-ending sweeps, and has much better speed and defenses. Furthermore, with the introduction of Dragon Tail, Baton Pass strategies aren't nearly as effective anymore anyway. Togekiss's mediocre speed and weakness to Stealth Rock also really hurts its ability to pass, unlike Mew who sits at a comfortable 100 Speed and can boost it with Rock Polish.

Only the second set has a chance since it isn't directly outclassed by anything, but it has so many checks I'm not sure its worth it. It is true that Ferro/Forry can't set up on it but I'm not sure if that is reason enough to use Togekiss.

I replaced ho-oh with togekiss on the team i tested togekiss with, used the same spread and was scared of the special bulk it had D: (it lived a scarfed surf from a kyogre at max sp def D:), I am now convinced that it can only use nasty plot and not sub or encore over it. I'll get rid of the set since none of the QC members like it, although reconsider baton pass.

ALSO,

The third set it outclassed simply because of how much better Mew is as a passer. It can Taunt, pass Rock Polish which allows for actual game-ending sweeps, and has much better speed and defenses. Furthermore, with the introduction of Dragon Tail, Baton Pass strategies aren't nearly as effective anymore anyway. Togekiss's mediocre speed and weakness to Stealth Rock also really hurts its ability to pass, unlike Mew who sits at a comfortable 100 Speed and can boost it with Rock Polish.

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I finally got a log that's not me infront of a noob! Also togekiss can utilize its ground immunity with encore by sending it in to a predicted groudon eq, and run enough speed to encore that move and abuse groudon.



Normally the sweep would be impossible with mew since lugia has the option to run both dragon tail and roar, when in front of a togekiss, it is forced to pick a move that would not make it phaze it out since encore will make it locked on sub and/or roost, which means more free boosts. Mew cannot beat lugia without the combination of sub + taunt (and even then you'd have to predict the dragon tail and whirlwind) making it possible to only pass 1 type of boost, and even then encore enables it to set up infront of things, ex. the toxic shown.

The same logic can be applied with dialga, although togekiss with speed investment can set up a sub before it thunder waves or stealth rock's, get an encore to lock dialga into sr or twave , and nasty plot can be ready to be pass if dialga switches, if no switch more boosts.

The 2nd set is hard to take down and revenge, and note that most of its checks wont like entering with a paralysis on their backs with Groudon by the flying bird's side.