General Metagame Discussion

While we have very specific and detailed threads about specific parts of the metagame (weather, offense, hazards, stall); a thread about how the metagame is as a whole is always good for discussion. While I'm sure we've all seen the fallout of Excadrill and Thundurus being banned (stall being better, lack of priority Thunder Wave, heavy offense on the rise), how long will things stay like this? I want to hear from you, the users, about the general metagame.

This was requested by a few users, and while the OP isn't as huge as the others, I feel that such a broad topic doesn't need a ton of guiding other than "let's talk about OU."

Just how do we define "a pokemon metagame" to which lengths that, we all as competitive battlers, feel comfortable discussing, playing and ultimately expanding our knowledge to influence the way in which everyone of us is capable of doing; without feeling cheated, not outplayed. (Something to think of).

There are countless, legitimate strategies in BW OU and more so when we continue to open our team builders and give some real food for thought. You open team builder, adapt your post suspect team in attempts to make a fresh start, then create an entirely new one just because you know it's the only way forward.

By now we have a real idea of what works and what does not.

Personally speaking, I'm a huge fan of Latios and Salamence this generation because of the destructive fire power they can unleash, and just how easily they fit into teams that can be built around them to support their onslaught. I've used Latias with Expert Belt to draw in Latios' counters; vice-versa depending on how I wish to go about the battle.

Obviously weather will ultimately have the dominent say, and most teams will include or base entirely around these elements.

Taylor said:

Just how do we define "a pokemon metagame" to which lengths that, we all as competitive battlers, feel comfortable discussing, playing and ultimately expanding our knowledge to influence the way in which everyone of us is capable of doing; without feeling cheated, not outplayed. (Something to think of).

There are countless, legitimate strategies in BW OU and more so when we continue to open our team builders and give some real food for thought. You open team builder, adapt your post suspect team in attempts to make a fresh start, then create an entirely new one just because you know it's the only way forward.

By now we have a real idea of what works and what does not.

Personally speaking, I'm a huge fan of Latios and Salamence this generation because of the destructive fire power they can unleash, and just how easily they fit into teams that can be built around them to support their onslaught. I've used Latias with Expert Belt to draw in Latios' counters; vice-versa depending on how I wish to go about the battle.

Obviously weather will ultimately have the dominent say, and most teams will include or base entirely around these elements.

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Latias and Latios on the same team? Huh. That's something I've never really thought of using, but it sounds like an extremely potent strategy. Expert Belt Latias is more than capable of ridding the field of Scizor and denting Tyranitar enough to put it in Latios's KO range, and those are two of Latios's most potent counters.

Personally I think the BW standard metagame has hit its most balanced point yet after the removal of Excadrill and Thundurus. Literally every playstyle has some merit right now, even though hyper offense is clearly on the rise. Personally, I think this just opens up even more viable team building strategies, such as Trick Room. Trick Room could be extremely effective right now with all the teams spamming fast dragons and Terrakion right now. I also feel that all three weathers are very useful in their own right. I don't find sand to be the most dominant anymore, but it's still very usable, as Landorus is a fine sweeper and there's plenty to back him up with.

Overall I'm very happy with the OU metagame right now, and I think banning Excadrill and Thundurus was the best direction we could've taken. Frankly, I don't know if there's anything that needs to be gotten rid of. I suppose that'll change when more Dream World abilities are released (Chandelureeeeeee), but right now I think we're in a great position.

I was an early proponent of separating the metagame into an unofficial DW and official "as they are released" tier, and I couldn't be happier with the turnout. It's fascinating how a new Pokemon can come in and rile things up. For instance, the newly released Sableye and Volbeat, though frail and flawed, can use Prankster to great effect (both in COMPLETELY different manners). Sure, they aren't exactly dominating the OU metagame, but I have seen Volbeat act effectively as a Baton Passer.

There is a large amount of deoxys-s running about these days, and their coverage moves are extremly important, given spikes and stealth rock, i think ice beam is a good shout unless your team has a solid dnite check, or thunderbolt, psychoboost, fire punch for the common spinners, starmie switching in and being able to spin away hazards is a comon sight and thunderbolt nets a sweet ko and keeps hazards up, scizor is also very common and fire punch takes care of him, and psycho boost for tentacruel, with spikes and sr up rain stall is in deep trouble.

Deoxys S can be annoying since it has such a huge movepool so you never really know what it will have. In fact I think it has the most varied movepool of all of OU. It can also outspeed most choice scarfers as well. Still it doesn't take hits well. I use my shadow claw mew or my extreme speed choice band lucario to counter it.

How about using this topic to discuss actual battle strategy. By battle strategy I mean things not related to team building and movepools. For example the word prediction is used alot but there are so many different types of prediction. For example predicting switches and switching, predicting switches and attacking, predicting switches and using a non attacking move, weather wars prediction, predicting choice scarf, predicting rapid spin, taunt related prediction, predicting speed, predicting leads, etc. I am sure I am missing a few.

gbagcn said:

Deoxys S can be annoying since it has such a huge movepool so you never really know what it will have. In fact I think it has the most varied movepool of all of OU. It can also outspeed most choice scarfers as well. Still it doesn't take hits well. I use my shadow claw mew or my extreme speed choice band lucario to counter it.

How about using this topic to discuss actual battle strategy. By battle strategy I mean things not related to team building and movepools. For example the word prediction is used alot but there are so many different types of prediction. For example predicting switches and switching, predicting switches and attacking, predicting switches and using a non attacking move, weather wars prediction, predicting choice scarf, predicting rapid spin, taunt related prediction, predicting speed, predicting leads, etc. I am sure I am missing a few.

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Uh, I'm pretty sure it outspeeds all choice scarfers. Deoxys S speed caps out at 504. Unless you scarfed, like, A starmie or a salamence, which you don't, you can't outspeed deoxys.

Scarf Mienshao hits 508 speed and hits Deo with U-turn for 53-63% damage before it can do anything; from there, you can switch to cb scizor and bullet punch, which has a good chance to KO even if Deo set up a screen. If you feel like scarfing a Zoroark, you can attack first and do a minimum of 88% with dark pulse.

Scarf Salamence only hits 492 speed, btw

Razza said:

There is a large amount of deoxys-s running about these days, and their coverage moves are extremly important, given spikes and stealth rock, i think ice beam is a good shout unless your team has a solid dnite check, or thunderbolt, psychoboost, fire punch for the common spinners, starmie switching in and being able to spin away hazards is a comon sight and thunderbolt nets a sweet ko and keeps hazards up, scizor is also very common and fire punch takes care of him, and psycho boost for tentacruel, with spikes and sr up rain stall is in deep trouble.

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Not really a surprise since Excadrill, who was the best spinner in the game, is banned.

I've been running into a lot more scarfers since the ban too which is obvious and rain doesn't seem to be used as much as it was before.

Yea, the Deoxis are getting annoying. They're so versitital it's hard to counter them, especially since they outspeed almost the entire metagame.

So far from what i've seen it seems like the metagame has officially reached its peak in terms of balance. I know a lot of users don't like it, but those are the breaks.

I for one, love the current metagame. Its a little rough around the edges but its a ton of fun. Its still possible to do well with practically any Pokemon (i've been experimenting with Galvantula) especially now that Exca is gone. Dragonite is still the best Pokemon and dealing with him is a pain, but I don't think he's broken. Its always exhilarating to break through Dragonite, its like beating a tough boss in a video game or solving a difficult puzzle.

My 2 cents.

Finally Dancers like Volcarona and Salamence are at their best, without fucking Excadrill to threaten them, they can sweep midgame easily. Personally I really love the metagame right now, and I'm not seeing many Sandstorm teams anymore.

It seems that the loss of Excadrill has dramatically harmed Defensive teams. There are so many Dual Screens Deoxys+5 Sweeper teams out there now, which are incredibly difficult for defensively oriented teams to handle. Before, Hyper Offense teams had to carry items such as Air Balloon making Pokes such as Terrakion and Lucario so much more manageable. Now they can safely equip a Life Orb and go through everything. Heavy/ Hyper Offense teams thrive by keeping constant pressure on the opponent so they don't have time to heal. As a result, full stall has incredible difficulty against them. I think just about every good stall team out there has at least one Scarfer, usually 2.

It is interesting to see how long it is taking for the metagame to adapt to post-Excadrill/Thunderus. For example a lot of Sun Teams still use the old EV spreads that would have been able to revenge Excadrill. Pokemon that were surpressed by Excadrill, like Lucario and Metagross stilll haven't rose signifgantly in usage. Gastrodon is still up there, even though its primary purpose was to counter Thunderus. Also, Sun is the 3rd used weather, even though Excadrill has been eliminated and it is the only weather that can use weather+weather speed boost ability reliably.

What has rose in usage after Excadrill has been gone?

^ lot more HO. Like Aeromence mentioned, I've been seeing more DDHaxorus over CBHaxorus to form a dual-DD dragon teams. Under Screens it can set up on most things and dish good damage. Being able to nullify Quagsire's Unaware is also a great boon it has over the other dragons. The loss of Excadrill means that ExtremeSpeed and Technician Bullet Punch is all the priority you need now; no need to fit Aqua Jet, Mach Punch, or Vacuum Wave.

I've been running Volcarona in a weatherless team, and taking out Scarf Terrakion is such a bitch, since they simply hit and run. Do any of you guys no a good way to lure and kill Terrakion? Volcarona is probably the best lure, and it can hit Terrakion with Psychic / HP Ground, but I'd honestly rather pack HP Rock to deal with Dragonite / Gyarados / Tornadus in the Rain. I guess Spikes + physical wall can wear it down, too, so maybe I should make my team more defensive. Right now I'm packing Wobbuffet to trap + Counter Terrakion.

@ Pocket, just slap a Slowbro onto your team. Terrakion hits and runs, well Slowbro can play that game too. It comes in on Terrakion all day long, and stays healthy with Regenerator. It can do a lot more too like counter Conkeldurr, and check DD Dragons, so its not like you're using it for one purpose. As for a lure, I guess you could try Tyraniboah. Yeah, Tyraniboah is a pretty gay set, but it draws in Terrakions like no tomorrow and can smack it with a Focus Punch.

PK Gaming said:

Its always exhilarating to break through Dragonite, its like beating a tough boss in a video game or solving a difficult puzzle.

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this part is a bit ironic since most bosses on Pokemon games are amazingly easy to beat different from bosses on games like...idk, Dark souls?



i might go back into the competitive scene now that Exca and thundurus got banned. the OU Metagame is looking fairly balanced right now and i feel i can finally build a Lucario based team that i actually enjoy using, as i see no point in using a team i dont like and playing a metagame that only pisses me off.


overall i think the metagame will stay healthy for a while...so i better enjoy while i can.

I've been playing around with Wobbuffet + Double Priority SD Lucario and it's been completely awesome. It feels so satisfying when your opponent sends in Terrakion to try and revenge kill you, only to get OHKOed by +2 Bullet Punch. You don't need to worry about the slower bulkier threats since Wobbuffet handily Tickles them to death with CB Tyranitar waiting in the wings. Double Priority SD Luke gives offense so much trouble when he sets up.

I think the metagame is great now except for the slight rain problem. This will probably get better when people find stuff that can destroy common rain teams like Virizion and Haxorus. Without Excadrill and Thundurus teams don't have to have specific walls with little to choose from.

Having said that, Virizion is excellent. Both boosting sets are really good against stall and Virizion can also break FerroCent and sponge hydro pumps with its Latias-like defenses. I prefer SD because you don't have to rely on focus blast as a main STAB and aren't walled by as many things due to stone edge. Just make sure you can get SR up so Dnite doesn't start boosting in your face and roosting off the damage.

New World Order said:

It seems that the loss of Excadrill has dramatically harmed Defensive teams. There are so many Dual Screens Deoxys+5 Sweeper teams out there now, which are incredibly difficult for defensively oriented teams to handle. Before, Hyper Offense teams had to carry items such as Air Balloon making Pokes such as Terrakion and Lucario so much more manageable. Now they can safely equip a Life Orb and go through everything. Heavy/ Hyper Offense teams thrive by keeping constant pressure on the opponent so they don't have time to heal. As a result, full stall has incredible difficulty against them. I think just about every good stall team out there has at least one Scarfer, usually 2.

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Yeah I've been seeing a lot of Dual Screen Deoxys-S on ShellPass so defensive-based teams will just get wrecked unless they carry a Quagsire.

i disagree with all the 'wah, excadrill is gone; how are we going to spin now' hype. i'm finding that rapid spinners are far more common than they were last round and i attribute this partially to Dragonite's rise to dominance and the fact that he almost forces you to use a Spinner. This is bad news for those stall teams that bank on the opponent not packing a Spinner such as M Dragon's (otherwise brilliant) Rain Stall and also lowers the effectiveness of suicide Deoxys-S leads.

To be honest, I quite like the current metagame. It's fun to play in and there are a huge variety of different team styles that can be used effectively. There are also a lot of sets out there waiting to be discovered.

Right now I think rain is probably the strongest teamstyle to use; spamming high powered Water-type attacks is just too good tbh. Take out their Grass- or Dragon-type (Scizor beats Celebi and does a good job against Lat@is and Dragonite), then use a lure to beat any Water-type Pokemon. HP Grass Water-types work well here; it's cool to catch something on the switch with Specs Politoed HP Grass. Also strong physical attackers like CB Gyarados (which can lure in and beat Rotom-W etc.) work great too. After those are gone, bring in the high powered Water-type attacks. Specs Jellicent Water Spout, LO Starmie Hydro Pump, Speed Boost Sharpedo Waterfall; the list goes on.

Back this up with Stealth Rock and some other high powered attacks like Specs Hurricanes from Tornadus and Thunders from Jolteon and you're pretty much set for some hardcore smashing of opponent's teams.

Starmie in the rain is really good. Except for the rare LO Deo-s, Dugtrio, and some scarfers, it is pretty much the fastest mon in OU. Unlike Gen 4, its hydro pump can OHKO Scizor from full health, and Jirachi can't switch in. Jirachi does shit anyway, as Starmie can just recover and switch out. Rapid spin dies to quickly, I prefer 3 Attacks + Recover. It's also somewhat bulky and survives or resists most priority. Just pack something like Conkeldurr that can force ferro out and you are good to go.

I am hoping people start using things like DD Haxorus and Jolteon that makes rain have a tough time, a natural balance to its ease of use and powerful benefits.

I still don't understand how something so low on the usage stats like Thundurus managed to be banned. It makes me think that the people who banned it don't have a good understanding of the metagame since the explanation of why Thudurus is overpowered can't account for its position on the usage stats. The best explanation I heard is it having no switch in counters but it actually does have some such as some water/ground pokemon. Besides there are plenty of instances where you can't have a perfect switch in counter for everything. There are also other switch in counters like hard hitting choice scarf users that can come in and outspeed it. Thundurus has the major weakness that it dies too easily so that is why it was never used much. Gengar has a very similar moveset to Thundurus and is higher on the usage stats yet people see no reason to ban him.

Okay I really wish people would overcome this idea that usage statistics matter when we talk about bans. Latias was at around #7 when we banned it and it was an absolute monster. For one, the fact that Pokemon as good as Thundurus and Excadrill were so low on the usage list should speak to the fact that people were over-preparing for them and thus they weren't as strong against the metagame. You also have to realize that even if a Pokemon isn't in the top 5, you still have to prepare for it when you prepare a team; think of building a team in Gen 4, because basically no matter what you did Salamence fucked you up in SOME capacity. Excadrill and Thundurus left the same sort of shadow on the team building process, especially for stall teams; THAT is why they were banned.