CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 3 - Threats Discussion

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It's never too late! Sorry about this, but the new stage threw me for a loop. I interpreted it as an "early warning checks and counters discussion", which made sense to me to have after the overarching limits were set up. Anyway, this is a new stage that was introduced a mere month or so ago, and it is a place for speculation on those Pokemon that will give CAP 2 trouble and those that CAP 2 will give trouble simply by typing alone. There are some assumptions that must be made, such as that the CAP will probably have some form of STAB, and also remember that CAP 2 will have access to a single usage of Sketch.

Please read the below list for more details on the sorts of questions to answer here.
  • Going specifically by typing, what Pokemon found in the OU (or relevant) metagame will be able to comfortably give this CAP project trouble?
  • What Pokemon will be major threats to this project right off the bat?
  • What Pokemon have the potential to become counters?
  • What Pokemon may end up as threats, but must be contained or dealt with per the concept?
  • Will the concept succeed with these set list of threats?
  • Is this list of threats acceptable for the project?
  • What Pokemon will be threatened by the CAP based off of typing?
  • Are these Pokemon targets that we want CAP to hit?
  • Will these targets be "unavoidable" to threaten based solely on the typing?
  • What direction must the project go in now that a set list of basic threats has been identified?
  • What must be done in order to make these threats "wanted counters" or these threats be eliminated from counter discussion?
  • What Pokemon do we want this project to counter entirely?
Please don't be ridiculous about the questions that pertain to the success of the CAP project. It is still very early in the process, and many things can change to address those issues, if any exist. I don't want any doomsayers crying havoc that CAP 2 is ruined or has failed, because it hasn't. We just need to discuss whether or not what we've got so far will work for our concept, and if not, how it can be kept in mind to be fixed in later stages.

This discussion will be open for roughly 24 hours, after which I will reopen the stat limits discussion thread for continuance.

tl;dr: Quack! (Dusk sucks!)
 
Well, going with a Grass/Ghost STAB alone, these are all the (fully evolved) Pokemon that resist the combination by virtue of their typing and/or abilities (including DW).
Azurill
Bisharp
Bouffalant
Braviary
Cacturne
Chatot
Cobalion
Dodrio
Drapion
Durant
Escavalier
Farfetch'd
Fearow
Ferrothorn
Forretress

Genesect
Girafarig
Heatran
Honchkrow
Houndoom
Hydreigon
Klinklang
Lucario
Magnezone

Mandibuzz
Mawile
Miltank
Noctowl
Pidgeotto
Registeel
Sawsbuck
Scizor
Shiftry
Skarmory
Skuntank
Stantler
Staraptor
Swellow
Togekiss
Unfezant
Wormadam (Trash)


Sketchy is weak to Fire, Ice, Flying, Ghost and Dark. Out of this list, some noteworthy OU Pokemon not just resists the Grass/Ghost combination, but could hit back with STAB super-effective moves on CAP2, such as Heatran, Skarmory and Hydreigon. Bouffalant, Miltank, Sawsbuck and Stantler are completely immune to CAP2's STABs.

Using a Fighting move would give CAP2 unresisted coverage. Fire and Water moves are also very good coverage moves.
 
Other threats would include fast Ghosts and Pursuit users - Gengar, Chandelure and Scizor all pack resistances, SE hits and would likely match or outspeed CAPmon. It would be nice to check Scizor (switch in on resists and use HPfire), but generally I'm okay with this guy having to switch out against some pokes. Considering all of the steels in OU, I think we'll be seeing a lot of HPfire and Sketch Sacred Fire.
 
i would say tyranitar is an honorable mention since it has gargantuan sp.defense and i can pursuit trap sketchy.

Edit: ^if sketchy is a special attacker.
 

Bughouse

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Potential Counters
Obviously Heatran, Skarmory, and Hydreigon like zyrefrederic said. Also I'm thinking most Jirachi will too, unless we make CAP2 higher than Base 100 speed, which I heavily advocate against. Notably, Sawsbuck (if he is even used on Sun teams much...) completely absorbs CAP2's STABs.

What Pokemon may end up as threats, but must be contained or dealt with per the concept?
Ferrothorn comes to mind. There is no way that CAP2 should end up as hazard setup bait for Ferrothorn. This is easily accomplished with Rapid Spin in the sketch movepool of course, but also can be checked by giving CAP2 Will-o-Wisp (not a stretch, since CAP2 is a ghost after all)

What Pokemon will be threatened by the CAP based off of typing?
CAP2 will be able to switch into pretty much all Waters, as well as Celebi, and a bunch of commonly choice-locked Pokemon, such as Terrakion on Close Combat, Latios on a Surf or a -2 Draco Meteor, etc. Hippowdon and Politoed, though not Tyranitar or Ninetales.

Are these Pokemon targets that we want CAP to hit?
YES!

Will these targets be "unavoidable" to threaten based solely on the typing?
Yes, unless we completely neuter CAP2's offensive powers, in my opinion.

What Pokemon do we want this project to counter entirely?
Blissey/Chansey. Even if CAP2 is specially based, CAP2 should be able to set up a Substitute (if in movepool) and Quiver Dance (through sketch) away. Or CAP2 should be able to Taunt and Leech Seed stall, etc etc. Just beat the Pink Blobs! Of course if CAP2 is Physical this is even easier...
 
Well, just the main Steel types in OU do a pretty good job ressisting this CAP's main an secondary STAB (Heatran, Scizor, Forretress, Heatran, Ferrothorn and Skarmory to name a few) other pokes that resist the combination include Hydreigon, Dragonite (if Multiscale is intact) an weirder pokes like Togekiss

According to the side this CAP is trying to hit harder then the list gets bigger: Blissey, Heatran, Dragonite, Jirachi and Volcanora can switch into the grass move or set-up move and don't mind the Ghost STAB, and all of them need a different coverage move to be removed (and HP just isn't enough sometimes), Blissey is probably the safest choice since it needs SR and Seed Flare to 2HKO with Life Orb after Tail Glow (assuming around 100 SpA)

The Physical Set has to deal with the same Steel types but with a more powerful Sacred Fire to deal with them it can be more powerful right off the bat, still, it will have the most trouble getting rid of Heatran unless he changes his coverage, and if uses a move like SS it doesn't have acces to HP an has to relly on any coverage move we decide to give him

SpD Heatran is probably the best Swich in ressisting both STABs, not carring about Sacred Fire/powerful Fire attack and not being OHKOe by HP Fight after a Shell Smash/Tail Glow (assuming same stast as with Blissey), but Scarfed versions have to worry about Hp fight after SS and the same goes to Scarfed Hydreigon, still this makes him countered by other stuff, Specs Lati@s is probably another big one if he avoids the Shadow Ball, choice versions can be countere by pokemon with Pursuit if they don't min the attack (Tar when trapped in a Ghost/Fire move, Scizor in the Grass/Shadow, Metagross in the Grass/Ghost/Fight, etc...)

I think if we avoid giving the CAP powerful fire attacks then the way he has to choose between setting up and getting something better than HP will make it a very interesting pokemon
.
 
I think the good news for this thread is that CAPmon will be able to handle most counters to an acceptable level - even if not all of them on the same set. As an annoyer it can take down even large special walls like Blissey, and as a sweeper it can boost through all but the most steadfast walls (and you don't want it to be able to boost past everything regardless).

Even as a mixed attacker it will be able to Sketch the coverage moves you need. The beautiful thing about this CAPmon's versatility is that there will rarely be one Pokemon that can wall all of it's possible sets 100% of the time. The only exceptions there might be some very rare sets such as Sigilyph after a few boosts - none of the common OU threats (bar air-balloon Heatran or Tyranitar, who will still suffer under a possible Sketched Close Combat or boosted HP-Fighting), seem to hard wall more than half of CAPmon's possible sets.

EDIT: Also there's not harm in having a weakness to some revenge killers - after all that's the whole purpose of revenge killers. If it comes to it, most of them can be reasonably handled with Spore, Extremespeed or Sucker Punch, if you want to go down that route.
 

Joeyboy

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Alright well conversation for Sketchy's counters is going strong so I thought I'd bring up 'mons it threatens by typing alone.

The list is short because well, we don't know much about CAP2 besides type. I think he will be quite threatening of course to the bulky waters who reside in OU. This is of course because of its Grass stab which can nail those big blue dudes, chiefly Gastrodon, Quagsire and lolpert :) He also could be a semi reliable check to Starmie. Potentially negating a Rapid Spin and maybe sponging some water attacks.

Psychics deserve a shout out too. CAP2 may be about to check certain threats like Reuniclus, Lati@s; though I can't imagine he'll want to take any Draco Meteors.

Anyway I'm about to fall asleep but I thought I'd throw those into the conversation melting pot.
 
Well, Grass/Ghost obvious type that can wall is steel. As mentioned above common steel walls such as Skarmory. If we give this CAP low speed Jirachi could give him trouble again because of steel typing and portenial bulky sets will give this CAP heaps of trouble as it has becoming apparent in earlier threads that nerfing stats is a must.

On offense scarfed Tyranitar will give it trouble with or without pursuit,with scarf anything but a sketched mach punch will be the death of thid CAPmon from T-tar. Also, despite not resisting ghost, Zapdos will give some trouble. Its natural bulk will allow it wall wall this CAPmon if not prepared for him and Heat Have will probably do good damage stats/ability pending.
 

Deck Knight

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By virtue of the fact we have Sketch once and Hidden Power, most of the Pokemon listed that have 4x weaknesses can theoretically be dealt with.

As far as the possible sets, I'm seeing two different potential patterns emerge for offensive sets.

Neutral SpA booster:

Ghost STAB
HP Fighting
Sketch Stat Booster (Quiver Dance, Tail Glow, or Shell Smash)
TBD (either Recovery [Giga Drain or Recover] or something like Substitute)

Coverage: Ghost/Fighting/(Grass)

This set is fairly straightforward. I'll assume Giga Drain here because it's STAB and flows nicely with the set and Bulky Offense. The biggest threats are neutral Pokemon who can take a boosted hit, so it really depends on the CAP's Speed and Special Attack. Skarmory, Togekiss, Honchkrow, and Mandibuzz are the most immediately threatening, as they resist STABs, attack with STAB SE attacks, have decent special bulk, and aren't weak to Hidden Power Fighting. Not to be underestimated as well is Dragonite, who doesn't resist Ghost but can survive most likely if Multiscale is active, and blast back with Hurricane. Volcarona can likely enter a Quiver Dance war (even from behind) and win by virtue of STAB SE Fire Blast, though if it's slower than CAP 2 a Tail Glow set might be able to break it with Shadow Ball. Crobat may likely be fast enough to outspeed and KO with Brave Bird. Tornadus could also be a potential check, though it doesn't have the bulk of Dragonite. Staraptor is also a check, despite its poor special bulk.

Full Coverage:

Grass STAB
Sketch Coverage
4x Hidden Power Coverage
Ghost STAB

Coverage: Grass/Ghost + Fire/Ground OR Fire/Ice OR Rock/Ground OR Fighting/Ice

This set could be all Special or it could be Mixed, but based on the biggest threat being Steels I imagine a powerful Fire attack being used for Sketch and Hidden Power being used for Ground (Heatran) or Ice (Dragonite). The only real weaknesses here will be made apparent after the stats and abilities are decided. Grass/Fire/Ice/Ghost has Heatran issues, while Grass/Fire/Ground/Ghost is not effective against Hydreigon. Grass/Rock/Ground/Ghost has the potential to hit everything, though it will most likely be walled by Ferrothorn as it sets up. Finally, Grass/Fighting/Ice/Ghost hits for decent Neutral and SE coverage, but may experience difficult in breaking through Skarmory, Jirachi, Metagross, and Volcarona.

So I'd say we can condense the threat list down to:

High threats: (resist both STABs [or have sufficient bulk to that effect], hit back with SE STAB attacks, and survive common coverage moves)
Dragonite
Skarmory
Honchkrow
Togekiss
Mandibuzz
Volcarona

Situational Threats: (resist one or both STABs and possess either the bulk to wear the CAP down, the ability to easily OHKO in a theoretical matchup, and/or common STAB or coverage moves that can hit SE. May be weak to one or more common coverage moves)
Ninetales
Gengar
Zapdos
Crobat
Scizor
Tyranitar
Regice
Salamence
Metagross
Jirachi
Infernape
Staraptor
Drapion
Bronzong
Abomasnow
Weavile
Heatran
Darmanitan
Scrafty
Ferrothorn
Escavalier
Durant
Hydreigon
Tornadus

There are of course, still support sets to be considered, but I think these lists represent the most threatening Pokemon based on the information we already know. It was not mentioned much, but Ninetales is a very effective counter, sporting boosted Fire STAB, decent SpD, and it doesn't care a whit about even Sun-boosted Sacred Fire thanks to its resistance and burn immunity.
 
I'm very happy with that analysis, well thought out by DK - I think it puts into words a lot of our thoughts.

Personally, I am happy to see the distribution of the list of threats, with only a few high threats and a reasonable few situational threats. Keep in mind that people running Sketch PLUS HP(xxx) for coverage will usually halve or reduce even further this list of threats (removing Flying with HP Ice, Rock; Dragon with HP Ice and Steel with HP Fire/Fighting) - which is exactly the reason anyone runs Hidden Power at all. Those people that run boosting moves and eschew coverage are perfectly aware that they're exchanging a little versatility for pure power, and therefor increase their chance of being checked by whichever type their Hidden Power can't reach, but even still will never be completely walled by more than half of that list.

Add in the unpredictability of CAPmon's wildcard moves, and even the high threats will be hesitant to switch in until they know the full extent of CAPmon's moveset.

All in all I don't think TOO much attention should be payed to broadening CAPmon's coverage against threats.
 
I actually think that, when considering threats, we should not be thinking of 'What Sketchy can hit for super-effective'. That's redundant. Heatran may resist both of his STABs, but Sketchy can use Earthquake. Skamory could fall to a Bolt Strike or Sacred Fire. The list goes on.

When thinking about what we want to counter Sketchy, we should be thinking about giving Sketchy the stats that allow him to be countered by said mons. For example, if we want Jirachi to be a check/counter, we need to give Sketchy less than Base 100 speed, and a so~so physical defense.

The very nature of this CAP means that hard counters are going to be few, if none. Jirachi might handle other sets well... but oh no, it's Shell Smash with HP Ground! Skarmory might handle that set fine, however, but if it's packing HP Fire...

Luckily, between Jirachi, Heatran, and Skarmory, I think most possibilities are covered. But we don't really want everyone to have to run those three on the same team to counter sketchy. [Especially when Sketchy can just pair with Magnezone anyway]

We should be focusing more on Sketchy's speed in particular. The slower Sketchy is, the less chance he'll have to either set up on the switch, and then attack, or attack twice, before the check/counter attacks him. However, if he is too slow, he'll be pretty useless.
 

LouisCyphre

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I don't get why people are overlooking Fighting as CAP2's chosen coverage. It plows through Balloon Heatran and hits Jirachi and Skarmory neutrally.

I could see the UU Normal/Flying-types rising up to contend with CAP2, being Staraptor and Togekiss. They both switch in on either STAB and retaliate hard with Flying attacks or set up. In addition, they switch in safely on proposed Ground-type coverage that seems likely to be run with CAP2's STAB moves.
 

Bughouse

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In reference to Raikaria's post, I agree with the assessment that those 3 are probably the best suited to beat out a good number of CAP2 sets. I also agree the Speed stat is incredibly important. I definitely think slower than base 100 is necessary, but how slow can it be without it becoming TOO slow. I think it should still be faster than Skarmory and Breloom though. Personally, I think 81 base speed along with Gyarados is a ballpark estimate of where CAP2 should fall.

p.s. Theorymon-ing away: CAP2 + Heatran is a really, really good core. Honestly, it's much better than Celetran. I originally was thinking CAP2 would fit best on a Rain team, but it looks like it might work equally well, or better, in Sun.
 
IMO, the type of counters will depend largely on the roles CAP2 will assume on a common basis, although there will definitely be some counters based on type interaction alone. For example, even if Heatran naturally threatens all of Bronzong, Metagross, and Jirachi, the high diversity of their roles means that some Pokémon can counter some of them, but not all of them (Skarmory may take on most Metagross, some Bronzong, but Jirachi is very risky).

If we were to go with a bulky offensive route, with a stat boosting move and general coverage, stuff like Heatran would be a good check, although, as someone before me mentioned, 4X weak mons are not as reliable because a simple Hidden Power can dispatch them. Moreover, if offenses are equal and CAP2 has equivalent STABs for both physical and special side, it will probably go special because nothing physically oriented can best Quiver Dance. So, Hidden Power will probably be a common sight, unless CAP2 needs to use it as one of his STABs.

Personally, I think Volcarona will be the best check for a variety of reasons. First of all, CAP2 won't like to run HP Rock over HP Fighting or HP Ice, due to the lesser coverage. Moreover, Volcarona can boost with Quiver Dance alongside CAP2, and kill him with Fiery Dance when needed. Obviously, if CAP2 will run a more supportive route with Spore and maybe entry hazards, Volcarona won't be such a surefire counter. Similarly, a Shift Gear set may be able to outspeed and kill Volcarona (+1 Shadow Claw comfortably 2HKOes even if CAP2 has something like 80 base Atk).

Heatran, Dragonite, and Hydreigon make for decent checks as well, but they largely depend on which kind of stats we give to CAP2, and which sets it will run
 
Something it's really gonna have problems with is Dragons in general. Dragonite, Hydreigon, Haxorus, Salamence all have easy access to Fire and Flying moves. Hydreigon completely wrecks its STAB attacks. I feel like Sketch will be limited to getting in some coverage against these kinds.

On the other side, we could get it access to Taunt. If we could do that then it could wipe out some of the slower set up pokemon like Bronzong. If it's going bulky offense, I think it might take a few hits from Ferrothorn, Bronzong, Forretress, and other such set-ups couldn't just resort to a 2HKO from Gyro Ball. As a Ghost, it will also most likely get access to Will-O-Wisp. Physical attackers switching in from the aforementioned effect can become useless before they can even get a chance to do anything.

So, if I turn out to be right, we may end up with something like:

-Will-O-Wisp
-Taunt/Leech Seed
-Dragon Pulse/Ice Beam/Outrage/Draco Meteor
-Power Whip/Leaf Storm/Shadow Ball/Shadow Claw
 

jas61292

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Ok, I am going to try and do this without assuming anything about the movepool other than STAB offensive moves and moves that almost every Pokemon get.

First of all the obvious main problem is steel types. Of course, it can always sketch a move (or use Hidden Power) to defeat them. If it goes Fire, it is walled by Heatran. If it goes Ground, Skarmory will take it down. However, people have gone into this already, so I won't go any deeper here. Basically, what I think we should be looking at are Pokemon that don't just resist its STABs, but ones that won't really care about the common sketch moves or Hidden Powers.

Mandibuzz was brought up, and I think that is a good example. Resists both STABs, doesn't care too much about neutral unboosted non STAB moves or a boosted neutral Hidden Power, and can also hit back with Brave Bird. Honchkrow is similar, but exchanging some of the bulk for the ability to both hit harder back and its ability to use sucker Punch to take it down without taking a hit if prediction is right. Togekiss is another good example, as, in fact, are most Normal Flying types, especially ones who can take a +1 neutral Hidden Power (which, of course depends on its stats, but is something to definitely consider).

Going along a completely different route though, I think CAP2 will, and should, be easy bait for prankster Pokemon like Whimsicott. It might not be able to sub seed it, but encoring a boosting or not very effective move, and paralyzing/poisoning it should be a good way to cripple CAP2.

Finally, one potential check, depending on the speed and other stats, of course, would be Gengar. Assuming Gengar out-speeds, it is likely that a sub Disable Gengar would be able to easily cripple CAP2. Most proposed sets can only hit him with the Ghost STAB and would be unable to break through without it.

Overall, I think Pokemon that can disrupt CAP2's strategy will do a better job at countering it than those that just try to outright wall it.
 
an all out specially offensive set, if it has the speed will probably be something like this:
Pokemon @ Life Orb/Leftovers
Timid/Modest Nature
252 SpAtk 252 Spe 4 HP
-Seed Flare
-Shadow Ball
-Fire Blast
-Shell Smash/Quiver Dance/Earth Power/Ice Beam/Aura Sphere

As you can probably see, the only "counters" to this pokemon are Heatran and Dragonite. This is why I suggest that we put very little speed into this guy, because if it has more than 81 speed then it's practically unstoppable (looking at you, Dragonite).

edit: zarator, you made a great point with Volcarona, I also could be a pontential counter.
 
I feel like all-out specially offensive wouldn't be the best set to run, especially if the stat spread is more inclined towards bulky offense. A set that works similarly to Bulk Up Scrafty might be more useful:
Sketchmon @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 Spe
Nature: Modest
-Giga Drain
-Calm Mind
-Shadow Ball
-Focus Blast

Really the EVs are arbitrary, because we don't have a stat spread yet, but after a few Calm Mind boosts, it would be hitting hard no matter what.
 
an all out specially offensive set, if it has the speed will probably be something like this:
Pokemon @ Life Orb/Leftovers
Timid/Modest Nature
252 SpAtk 252 Spe 4 HP
-Seed Flare
-Shadow Ball
-Fire Blast
-Shell Smash/Quiver Dance/Earth Power/Ice Beam/Aura Sphere

As you can probably see, the only "counters" to this pokemon are Heatran and Dragonite. This is why I suggest that we put very little speed into this guy, because if it has more than 81 speed then it's practically unstoppable (looking at you, Dragonite).

edit: zarator, you made a great point with Volcarona, I also could be a pontential counter.
The assumption of that set, in my opinion, is rather foolish. It's pretty much given that Sketchy isn't getting Seed Flare as a level Up or Egg move, because it's Shaymin's signiture attack. And Fire Blast on a Grass type? We're not making Pyroak.

So far, potential checks seem to include:

Hydregion
Skarmory
Heatran
Jirachi
Mandibuzz
Honchkrow/Murkrow [Same typing as Mandibuzz, after all]
Dragonite
Gengar
Spiritomb
Sableye
Bisharp [Steel/Dark and STAB Sucker Punch from stupid attack]
 
I think a big part of Sketch on a poke like this is not having any surefire counters. It can Sketch a move to get rid of any of its normal counters. Just looking at the list above, I can Sketch the following moves to deal with these pokes.

Hydreigon-- Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave, Ice Shard (only if speed is lower, if not, any SE move)
Skarmory-- Fiery Dance, Searing Shot, Sacred Fire, V-Create, Bolt Strike, Thunderbolt
Heatran-- Any Fighting type attack (seeing as we have Ghost-typing), Ground moves
Jirachi-- Any of the fire moves mentioned for Skarmory, Ground moves
Mandibuzz-- Bolt Strike, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam
Honchkrow-- Ice Shard
Dragonite-- Ice Shard, Ice Beam, Icicle Crash
Gengar-- Any priority, Shadow Sneak
Spiritomb-- This might actually be kinda tough if it has Sucker Punch
Sableye-- Any really strong STAB move, this thing is going to have boosted its stats to ridiculous levels anyway.
Bisharp-- Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave.

That's just to start. Of course, not all of those will OHKO (Ice Shard probably won't ever OHKO a Hydreigon for a non-Ice types). Now obviously it's not going to have all of those moves at the same time, but it's hard to make a real list of counters with Sketch. Instead, the counters depend on what moves the mon isn't running.
 
I like that CAP 2 has holes in its typing that give it trouble in the form of Heatran, Skarmory, Jirachi, Dragonite, and Hydreigon. These are, in my opinion, the biggest focus of this discussion thread. Things like Zapdos and Forretress may be situational checks to CAP 2, but I don't think they should be a huge backbone of what goes on here. If we can stop Dragonite, for instance, we can deal with Zapdos, and so forth. I also think that Deck listing Mandibuzz and Togekiss is strange, because they really don't matter. Scizor and Tyranitar, while able to Pursuit CAP 2, will not want to deal with CAP 2's potential Sacred Fire / Blue Flame in Scizor's case or STAB Grass-type moves in Tyranitar's case. That said, we shouldn't see this list and go "WE NEED TO STOP THESE POKEMON!" because we don't! We should read it and pick and choose which are acceptable losses and which we really do need to overcome.

I think Skarmory, Heatran, and Jirachi are acceptable losses, and things we should not try to overcome in later stages. They provide a solid three-pronged core that can best pretty much anything that CAP 2 can do when used together. Granted, they'll almost never be used all together on one team, but their presence in the metagame will serve as solid checks to CAP 2 regardless. I think that Dragonite is a big issue, and one that we will want to address at later stages of the CAP. This may be achieved by minimally being faster than Dragonite in order to get two moves in before it can react when it switches into CAP 2. Hydreigon I don't think should be dealt with by raw Speed, and I think can be dealt with sufficiently by a Quiver Dance + HPFighting set of some sort. This means that Hydreigon will check non-Speed-boosting sets, but that's okay. I think that's healthy for the CAP.

Good discussion so far, keep it up! Maybe there are a few important checks we haven't considered yet.
 

jas61292

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I think that Dragonite is a big issue, and one that we will want to address at later stages of the CAP. This may be achieved by minimally being faster than Dragonite in order to get two moves in before it can react when it switches into CAP 2. Hydreigon I don't think should be dealt with by raw Speed, and I think can be dealt with sufficiently by a Quiver Dance + HPFighting set of some sort. This means that Hydreigon will check non-Speed-boosting sets, but that's okay. I think that's healthy for the CAP.
While I agree with a lot of what you have said, I have to disagree with this part. Really, why do we have to deal with these two? When you can already beat all of your counters with the right move, why should we work to stop a few others from checking you? I think these two are important checks and we should actually try to make them able to stop CAP2, rather than looking for a way to let it beat them, especially in the case of Hydreigon.

However, I will once again reiterate from my first post that I think the best way to beat CAP2 will be with disruptive strategies. As a large portion of the threat it provides is from its versatility, moves like Encore, Taunt and Disable will be key to stopping it. Prankster Pokemon, as well as fast taunters who are not weak to its STABs will probably be some of the best ways to prevent CAP2 from destroying everyone.
 
I don't think that beating Hydreigon is a problem, and think that Hydreigon being a situational check is a good thing. You have to remember that we're only talking about checks on typing alone; more checks will crop up after we have stats and many more after movepool. Finally, you don't actually even attempt to convince me why we should be so keen to let Hydreigon and Dragonite outright beat CAP 2. Why must we? The Steels do a great job and are quite popular in themselves, but being checked and beaten soundly by the #1 Pokemon in the metagame (Dragonite) is a real killer for the usability of a Pokemon. Yeah, we get Sketch on CAP 2, but it's still going to be a fairly well-rounded and balanced Pokemon in the meta, and thus would fall hard from grace if threatened so easily by something so popular. I think beating Dragonite and consequently Hydreigon would be a good dynamic for both the metagame and learning the most from CAP 2's usage.
 
I don't think Dragonite would like to switch in just because of Sacred Fire (and maybe Spore) removing all chances he has in sweeping unless he knows the Sketch move, altough I think a good rock attack would give this CAP a nice coverage to overcome Dragonite and Volcanora, sadly this would only increase the SS sets since the best you can hope for in the special side is Power Gem and AncientPower (altough this could be overcomed with the right abilities), if given Ground attacks (Eartquake or Earth Power) it would still have to deal with Skarm and Heatran (which many times has a balloon so you couldn't set-up unless you want to switch out and take hazzards damage again) an makes him an easy target for Hydreigon an Dragonite
 
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