Middle Cup Discussion

approved by NixHex



Middle Cup is a tier similar to LC in its idea, however, it is for second stage Pokemon, (Croconaw, Monferno, Vibrava, etc) rather than for first stage Pokemon. All Pokemon must also be level 50.

What usually comes to mind when discussing Middle Cup is defensive behemoths such as Porygon2, Chansey, and Dusclops who can tank various hits thrown at them. Contrary to popular belief, Middle Cup isn't all about stalling, and in fact there are quite a few stallbreakers and ways to get past the item Eviolite, such as via Knock Off, Trick, or powerful setup sweepers. Just because there are only 78 Pokemon in the tier, including useless Pokemon such as Metapod and Kakuna, doesn't mean there isn't much to explore! Please don't complain about things you think are broken, as there are probably various ways to deal with them, we just probably have to think of them!

Some more information on the tier can be found here. Just ignore the banlist (it's a bit outdated, anyways), and there are a few useful links at the bottom.

Also, I'll be keeping a list of interesting/creative sets that I find in this thread or come up with. It'll also include a brief description of them.



Anyways, let's discuss Middle Cup! It's quite an interesting tier. ;)

I this is one of my favorite set for my secret passion of Middle Cup!

Magneton@Choice Scarf
Magnet Pull
252 SpA/ 252 Spe/ 4 HP
- Thunderbolt
- HP Ice
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon

This surprisingly has decent coverage and actually hits hard. I sometimes used a Choice Specs and few things can take a boosted Thunderbolt like that. With the choice set Magnaton can actually out speed a lot of important stuff. Also can be used as a scouting set. A quick Volt Switch never hurts.

Do most people consider eviolite a banned item? PO says it's banned but you mention it in the thread. Obviously since this is an unofficial tier it's up to the users i suppose.

Anyway i havent done any middle cup this gen, but from gen 4 i can remember that kadabra , haunter and rhydon were the best sweepers, while chansey/dusclops pretty much walled everything.

Anyway roselia is sizing up to be a very usefull pokemon as one of the few users or spikes to toxic spikes, good special defense and special attack to.

I also wanna try out dragonair cause shed skin rest + good defenses + dragon dance = cool

I used to run Persim Berry Dragonair in Gen 4 and it worked surprisingly well. Lum is unnecessary since Shed Skin takes care of status. Of course you lose the good defenses part without the Eviolite but it's not too difficult to stay alive for a Dragon Dance. Waterfall/Aqua Tail + Outrage + filler did everything you needed. If you opt for Eviolite, you could run a baby ParaShuffler set but lack of Leftovers doesn't do any favors.

And no, Eviolite hasn't been banned yet.

When I did play middle cup (for a short time) I loved duosion and gurdurr as sweepers because they did so well against the stall everyone used. Sadly metang was everywhere so kadabra didn't end up as well as i had hoped :\

Well from the matches I played with you and Ninja Combusken was an amazing mon. Marshtomp looks like a reliable stealth rocker due to being able to take on the physical threats in the metagame(think Rhydon). If anyone ever wants to have a match just let me know, I have a team ready and want to test out some threats that may be overlooked. Middle Cup has the potential to be a very fun tier

Middle Cup kicked ass last gen.

My MC team on Pokemon Showdown runs a support Kadabra.

Kadabra @ Light Clay
Trait: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 Spd / 126 SAtk / 126 Def
Timid Nature
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Knock Off
- HP Fighting / HP Ice (I switch between the two a lot)

It's surprisingly good - Kadabra's Speed allows you to set up the appropriate Screen before the opponent attacks (usually), and next turn you can either set up the next Screen or go for Knock Off. I don't run Psychic because Steels and Darks are likely to switch in on me.

Also, ZWEILOUS

http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Raseri-vs-Keiranana--2012-02-23

So Raseri and I had a Middle Cup battle for fun. I was using a Trick Room team, and I'm really surprised with how well Lampent did and how powerful Zweilous was

I had a few battles last weekend, with no bans and DW abilities/unreleased items allowed. It was pretty fun.

The metagame is like GSC, with games being decided by bulky setup and entry hazards. With Chansey/Dusclops/P2, stall is really good. Getting entry hazards down is really important, as Wartortle is the only spinner in the metagame and it cannot do anything to Dusclops.

The only (Toxic) Spikers are Roselia and Whirlipede. Whirlipede is bulkier, but has zero offensive prowess, with 55/40 offenses and Streamroller, Toxic, Payback and Poison Jab as the only viable options for the last two slots. Roselia, on the other hand, is pretty frail even with Eviolite, but has a great offensive and support movepool including Sleep Powder, Aromatherapy, Leaf Storm, Giga Drain and Synthesis, coming off a decent 100 base SpA.

The metagame is geared towards stall, but you can't expect to slap Chansey/P2/Dusclops/Wartortle/Roselia/Metang together and expect to be successful. Entry hazards are a big problem for all teams. Shadow Tag Lampent is a huge threat, and it singlehandedly forces Chansey to run Shed Shell, reducing its defensive prowess. Duosion easily sets up on the defensive trio. Things like Combusken, Sub/Work Up Zweilous, Gurdurr, Machoke and SubSD Rhydon give stall a hard time. Even your standard special sweepers can use all sorts of shenanigans to mess with Chansey/P2, with Haunter and Kadabra often using Trick + Toxic Orb and Magmar/Electabuzz going mixed.

Golbat, Roselia, Boldore, Piloswine and Metang are some of the best leads.

Plopper said:

Shadow Tag Lampent is a huge threat, and it singlehandedly forces Chansey to run Shed Shell, reducing its defensive prowess.

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Yeah, unreleased DW chandelure line pokemon tend to be broken like that.

Seadra is pretty good in MC. It has a good speed / spa stat and it's bulky as hell with Eviolite. My personal favorite set is Agility + 3 attacks, although bulky sets with Scald are also good and I guess a bulky DD set is plausible. But yeah even though I'm crap at it, MC is very fun and more people need to play!

Yeah, if you guys have any battles I encourage you to post them. (If you're posting a log of a battle, however, I'd at least want you to include other things in the post as well!)

About Seadra, I was thinking of using a RestTalk set. That defense stat is truly amazing, and unlike Rhydon who has a really high Defense stat Seadra doesn't have a bunch of weaknesses. Only problem is there are a bunch of other Water-types you might want to be using, such as Wartortle for rapid spinning and Crocanaw because it's a great bulky attacker.

Spike-stacking is pretty big in Middle Cup, as it's one of the best ways to deal with more defensive threats. Wartortle honestly isn't that great other than for rapid spinning. It's kind of hard to set up both Toxic Spikes and Spikes, though, as there are few users of them. Only Roselia and Whirlipede can setup Spikes. Toxic Spikes has a slightly larger rosters (read: the nidos), but that's about it. I haven't had the chance to play much Middle Cup, but I think that it's better to set up Toxic Spikes early-game rather than late as the powerful Substitute stat up sweepers can be a pain without it up, especially as there is a lack of good phazers in the tier. It'll also force them to bring out Roselia/Whirlipede earlier, provided they have one of those, and gives you a set-up opportunity for something such as Swords Dance Combusken.

Also, I was just thinking, could this (or something similar to this), be a viable set for Zweilous?

Zweilous (F) @ Eviolite
Trait: Hustle
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Dragon Tail
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt

Basically you Substitute to avoid status, then you spam Dragon Tail to rack up hazard damage. Taunt is useful for shutting down walls and Thunder Wave can be crippling for more offensive Pokemon, although maybe an attacking option / Toxic would be more useful over this. The EV's could probably use some work, but this is just an idea. To function at its best, it'd need hazard and Wish support. It's going to die pretty fast if it uses Substitute often, especially without any recovery whatsoever.

Nixhex and I were talking, and the idea of Sheer Force Croconaw came up, so I whipped up a set.

Croconaw@Life Orb
Sheer Force
Jolly Nature
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
~Dragon Dance
~Waterfall
~Crunch
~Ice Punch

More or less a standard setup sweeper approach. After 2 Dragon Dances, Dusclops is 2HKO'd (46%-55%) on the switch or if it misses with Will-O-Wisp, with Stealth Rock on the field , and also 2HKO's (71%-84%) Eviolite Gurdurr. With Spike-Stacking being so fairly common from what I've heard, Gurdurr is OHKO'd with 3 layers of Spikes and Stealth Rock, and Dusclops' 2HKO becomes more guaranteed with those same hazards.

Unfortunately, Sheer Force Croconaw is unreleased. I don't know whether you can use unreleased Pokemon in Middle Cup or not, but if not, you can't use that set.

AOPSUser said:

Unfortunately, Sheer Force Croconaw is unreleased. I don't know whether you can use unreleased Pokemon in Middle Cup or not, but if not, you can't use that set.

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And so it isn't as of yet. I figured that only the Unova starters were the only ones to not be released yet. I guess come the release, it'll be viable then.

DTC said:

Zweilous (F) @ Eviolite
Trait: Hustle
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Dragon Tail
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt

Basically you Substitute to avoid status, then you spam Dragon Tail to rack up hazard damage. Taunt is useful for shutting down walls and Thunder Wave can be crippling for more offensive Pokemon, although maybe an attacking option / Toxic would be more useful over this. The EV's could probably use some work, but this is just an idea. To function at its best, it'd need hazard and Wish support. It's going to die pretty fast if it uses Substitute often, especially without any recovery whatsoever.

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I think a job like this would be done better by something like Shelgon or Dragonair, as (I think) they're naturally bulkier, and Dragon tail+Hustle makes for an extremely ineffective phazer. Imagine Whirlwind or Roar hitting only 50% of the time lol. It's a shame that Dragonair can't get taunt (not sure about Shelgon, i think not), but overall having that accuracy is better than having Taunt, and you have Substitute to block status anyway.

eviolite + chansey make this tier too stall oriented. Another problem is combusken.... sword dance, then it would be very hard to handle

To be honest, Combusken hasn't been too threatening to me in the few MC games I've played, Lampent is immune to it's dual STABs and can even set-up Trick Room in it's face to "reverse" its Speed Boosts, Yes sure it has Shadow Claw but I haven't seen a single Combusken with it also, physically defensive water-types such as Marshtomp and Wartortle can tank it's +2 Sky Uppercuts and retaliate with super-effective attacks. Shelgon can also shrug of it's attacks with ease.

Has much been considered about weather in Middle cup? I've been running a sun team consisting of Porygon2, Combusken, Weepinbell, Charmeleon, Wartortle, and Lairon to great success. Porygon2 and Lairon can set up sun, allowing abilities like Solar Power and Chlorophyll to activate. I figure rain with Seadra and Poliwhirl might function the same.

Its just a shame seadra doesnt get swift swim, game freak gave it poisen point for some reason >___>

The only Spinner is Wartortle, the only Spikers are Roselia and Whirlipede, and the only Toxic Spikers are Whirlipede, Nidorino and Nidorina.

Hustle Hone Claws Nidorino sounds interesting, but his only useful physical moves that benefit from the accuracy boost are Iron Tail and Head Smash.

Axa said:

Hustle Hone Claws Nidorino sounds interesting, but his only useful physical moves that benefit from the accuracy boost are Iron Tail and Head Smash.

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hustles gives all moves a 20% drop... so actually all moves benefit from hone claws.

when i used to play middle cup.... it turned into a stall oriented tier... so after a while... it just got boring because it was hard to break apart big walls with eviolite.... :/

Hustle lowers the accuracy of all PHYSICAL moves by 20%. So all physical moves benefit.

Personally, I'd rather use Hone Claws Zweilous though. You can't ignore that Outrage.

Zweilous doesn't get Hone Claws, unfortunately.

Oh, whoops. I'm used to Baton Passing it to Zweilous.